T-class

[komamatsu]

After listening TAA4100A from TRIPATH (AudioDigit T 100HC), I have a very strange feelings about the sound.

Strong quick and rich bass/midbass, but on the other hand, rusty crumbling trashy vocals, chords. Frankly - quite uncomfortable.

After listening to A or AB tube and A solid amps for a while, one can relax, enjoy, feel comfort and even 'live' in that surrounding sound, though this T-class tripath appears to change behavior into absolutely antipodal feelings.

It might be nice to explore output with analiser further, coz it seems that there are a lot of HF crap in spectrum that is coming from that module and needs extra filtering...

But as most subjective estimation is personal rating, does anybody have any exp with that T-class stuff ?

[2DualsNotEnough]

Ive owned both the Sonic Impact T-amp and Super T-Amp.The original has a quite acurate sound,with some shrillness in the highs,and lacking in bass.The super is much better in the bass.Both had very nice soundstages,and both were very low in distortion.I really want to get a Winsome Mouse,since the one thing that drove me nuts about the SA was the lack of power.
Jimmy

[renaudagnes]

I have to chance be near the European resseller of NuForce Products.

I have heard the NuForce V8 amps during months. I feel something like you : power, strong and quick bass and low medium. But I do not like the medium and high frequencies. For me it sounds like an "electronic component" with something like a "metallic" or numeric signature.

Recently I have heard the model 9 in 3 versions, the previous one, the second version, and the next version not sold yet. It is a prototype and we have to listen to it and send back our European point of view to the American manufacturer.

The model 9 is far better than the 8, and for my taste the sound is more natural.

Anyway I prefer Tubes or classic transistor technologies, but it's true I have only listen to NuForce products and I am not looking for listening to kind of gear for the moment.


A link (i am not agree with them... :scratch2: ) :
http://www.stereomojo.com/SHOOTOUT2007INTEGRATEDS.htm

[NeedForSpeed]

I just purchased an Audiosource class T 7(200wpc) yesterday, ($200 best
offer) although not familiar with a digital amp, there is some info about
bel canto's entry, the sonic t amp, but none about the audiosource, other
than when first put out a few years ago, it did'nt pass fcc test for rf emission.
It got redone, with Carver involved, so for $1 per watt, gonna give one a try.
Plus there's a 10 day full refund it your not happy. It looks just like a Caver
TFM amp from back in the day, I'll post a quick review when I get my hands on it.

[archie2]

After about 100 hours my Sonic T mellowed out very nicely.

[motorstereo]

I have my sonic t as my puter amp. It drives a pair of bookshelf infinitys with a yamaha sub and the sound is quite pleasant. I've had this set up for a couple years now and have had no desire to upgrade it. I just tried to get one of those audiosource t amps for a $200 best offer but it got rejected. I'll give it shot at $200 but I guess it isn't meant to be.

[wineslob]

After listening TAA4100A from TRIPATH (AudioDigit T 100HC), I have a very strange feelings about the sound.

Strong quick and rich bass/midbass, but on the other hand, rusty crumbling trashy vocals, chords. Frankly - quite uncomfortable.

After listening to A or AB tube and A solid amps for a while, one can relax, enjoy, feel comfort and even 'live' in that surrounding sound, though this T-class tripath appears to change behavior into absolutely antipodal feelings.

It might be nice to explore output with analiser further, coz it seems that there are a lot of HF crap in spectrum that is coming from that module and needs extra filtering...

But as most subjective estimation is personal rating, does anybody have any exp with that T-class stuff ?

I've heard this complaint with class D ICE based amps, seems as if the upper freqs just don't sound right Personally I've listened to an all class D driven system, and honestly never heard these problems, until a different CD player (mine and another) were put into the system Then we heard grain in the vocals, not good. Oddly the "grain" dosen't show up in my home system, but I'm not using a 2k+ preamp/4k CD deck w/ an AN DAC.

[Jukin Jay]

The HF grunge to which you refer is typically caused by one of two things, output filter design or poor circuit layout. The effects of each sound somewhat different but neither sounds very good! :no:

Ensuring that the output inductors can handle the needed current at the switching frequency without saturating is critical. Taking steps to keep RF out of places where it doesn't belong is also very important. This is both a function of circuit layout and the appropriate placement of bypass capacitors. Both of these become more critical with higher power designs as the peak currents in the output filters climb, and the likelihood of induced and conducted noise increases.

A four-layer PCB with good power and ground planes properly bypassed goes a very long way.

[rickon66]

I have been trying to buy one of the Audiosource T-amps for the past two days and have been rejected all the way up to $240.01. What is the secret?

[TONEPUB]

I've never heard a musical sounding digital amp....

[motorstereo]

I have been trying to buy one of the Audiosource T-amps for the past two days and have been rejected all the way up to $240.01. What is the secret?
Yep; I was rejected to $215. I'm done bidding on them. His buy it now price is too high for me. I believe it's along the lines "audiokarma" when something you'd like doesn't come your way but wait a bit and something better will come along.

[shrinkboy]

i have one of the audiosource jobbers on its way to me. i heard about it over on diyaudio, the thread starter declaring happily that he was thrilled with initial audition in his system. i have one of the original SI's from a few years ago, and just recently bought a Trends Audio TA-110, which is a competitor of the Super Sonic Impact. i had to return the the TA to the distributor because the 'power on' LED was flickering, and although no performance anomaly was noted, it simply bugged me sitting there flashing on and off. i wrote the retailer and asked if he was aware of this problem and he simply said send it back and we'll take care of you.

i very much liked the sound of the TA 110 on my vintage fraziers. i noted no hash or grain of any kind, just plenty of detail, solid soundstage and depth of same, and great dynamics. what's not to like?

i will be inserting the upcoming audiosource unit into my big system in place of a first generation Adcom GFA 555, signal taken from a Carver C2 pre and driving a pair of recently rehabbed Infinity Qb's...

looking forward to it.

[NeedForSpeed]

i have one of the audiosource jobbers on its way to me. i heard about it over on diyaudio, the thread starter declaring happily that he was thrilled with initial audition in his system. i have one of the original SI's from a few years ago, and just recently bought a Trends Audio TA-110, which is a competitor of the Super Sonic Impact. i had to return the the TA to the distributor because the 'power on' LED was flickering, and although no performance anomaly was noted, it simply bugged me sitting there flashing on and off. i wrote the retailer and asked if he was aware of this problem and he simply said send it back and we'll take care of you.

i very much liked the sound of the TA 110 on my vintage fraziers. i noted no hash or grain of any kind, just plenty of detail, solid soundstage and depth of same, and great dynamics. what's not to like?

i will be inserting the upcoming audiosource unit into my big system in place of a first generation Adcom GFA 555, signal taken from a Carver C2 pre and driving a pair of recently rehabbed Infinity Qb's...

looking forward to it.


I'll have mine this week also, I'll do a quick review, see how it goes.

[jw94055]

I got an Audiosource Amp 7 T and I think it is great. Have been playing it for quite awhile, mostly jazz and classical. I have a tube pre-amp and I firmly believe that running any source through tubes makes a great difference if one is going to use SS or Class D power amps. My sound is both extremely detailed and warm. Great control, great sound stage. I have never heard so much musical information from any amp. If one isn't going to have a tube pre at least have a tube DAC. A lot of the complaints about the "digital" amps reminds me of the early days of CD players. I never liked SS through SS through SS so I had a tube pre built and taadaa. I'm 59 so I've seen the introduction of a lot of audio technology. This I know for sure, I will always have (1) a CD player through a Scott Nixon DAC (2) a tube pre-amp
(3) an out of phase rear speaker system and (4) a "digital" power amp.

[shrinkboy]

jw-- please say more about 'out of phase rear speaker system'-- how do you set that up?

[soundmotor]

I'll have mine this week also, I'll do a quick review, see how it goes.

Cool!

[soundmotor]

I could certainly live with Class-T. The nominal heat signature & overall good sound is very appealing. New designs will likely sound better too.

[jw94055]

Shrinkboy, Basically, you have left and right rear speakers, the right positive on your power amp is connected to the positive terminal on the rear right speaker, the left positive on power amp to left positive rear speaker terminal. The two negative terminals on the rear speakers are connected together. Dave Hafler made something called the Dynaquad that did this within a box. The Dynaquad had an attenuator in it to set the volume of the rear speakers so that in your favorite listening position, when you barely heard the rear speakers, that's the proper setting. This isn't really adding anything fake to the overall sound, it is exposing out of phase information that is not coming out of the front speakers. I have taken it another step. I am running IC's from the tape out terminals on my front speakers pre-amp to auxilary in terminals on a pre-amp/power amp system in the rear of the room. Same amp/speaker set up (positive to positive, bridge negative). I set my favorite volume on my front speaker system, and then determine what the proper volume setting would be for the rear system. The IC cable to the rear is coaxial as it is about a 25 foot run and I don't want RF. You can google Dynaquad and/or out of phase speakers to get more information. By having a whole separate rear system, there is no strain on the main power amp. I'm not enough of a techie to know whether or not this type of setup will work with your power amp if you choose to use it for the rear speakers. As this post is getting long, I am going to stop. I would go on the internet to get more information or reply to this and I will help if I can. !!Attention: Read my following post, important information!!

[jw94055]

Shrinkboy, after having posted that long message, I found the information you need. Go to howstuffworks.com, put out of phase rear speakers into the search bar and go to the surround sound page. It has what you need. If there is still questions, I will still do what I can.

[JimJ[VT]]

My subwoofer amp out in the van is a Phoenix Gold Tantrum 1200.1, uses a Class T design. Never had a problem with it, sounds fine to me, but then again I have a 60Hz @ 24dB/octave low pass filter on it as well :)

Alpine has had a line of Class D full range amps out now for about a year - the PDX's - but I haven't had a chance to install/hear one yet. I've heard mixed things about them from people whose ears I trust.

[shrinkboy]

jw94055-- thanks for thorough responses and good ref's to info....

[Deang]

I run a Super-T with big horns that are 106dB/w. It works well, since most of the time I'm hovering at a 1/4 watt or less. At the levels I normally listen at, the sound is cleaner and more engaging than the $4000 worth of tube preamp and KT-88 monoblocks I was running. Anyone using these things with inefficient speakers are probably overdriving them. They claim 7-15 watts, but when driving real world loads it's quite a bit less. If you're running over a watt with any kind of decently recorded material -- expect to hear the grunge and irritating HF response that comes with clipping.

http://www.michael.mardis.com/sonic/start.html

Tripath has an interesting behavior that's not often discussed: The output impedance is low with low frequencies, but climbs as frequency increases. So, if you're using a loudspeaker that presents a reactive load, and has some major swings in impedance, you'll probably experience some issues. Specifically, if the speaker has peaks in impedance in its high frequency response, Tripath will track impedance (like a SET amp), and deliver non-flat response. IOW's, it will tip up the HF response. I believe this is the major reason reports regarding the sound are all over the map.

These amps obviously aren't for everyone, but they're obviously for me -- I dig what I'm hearing out of mine.

[Jukin Jay]

I run a Super-T with big horns that are 106dB/w. It works well, since most of the time I'm hovering at a 1/4 watt or less. At the levels I normally listen at, the sound is cleaner and more engaging than the $4000 worth of tube preamp and KT-88 monoblocks I was running. Anyone using these things with inefficient speakers are probably overdriving them. They claim 7-15 watts, but when driving real world loads it's quite a bit less. If you're running over a watt with any kind of decently recorded material -- expect to hear the grunge and irritating HF response that comes with clipping.

True if you're using any of the units with nominal 12-volt supply rails such as the SI, Trends, etc. However with a pair of TP-2050 power stages and 30-volt rails one can get very clean sound at some pretty impressive levels.

Shameless plug:

http://winsome-labs.com/

[stuartk]

I've never heard a musical sounding digital amp....

I haven't either, but I haven't heard a Hypex amp yet, or ColdAmp. These both seem more promising than the rest of the crop of switching amps.

I've listened to a couple of Tripath-based amps, and an ICEpower one, and they all sounded kind of "brittle."

[stuartk]

Shrinkboy, after having posted that long message, I found the information you need. Go to howstuffworks.com, put out of phase rear speakers into the search bar and go to the surround sound page. It has what you need. If there is still questions, I will still do what I can.

There's a good article on the Hafler Difference Circuit here:

http://sound.westhost.com/project18.htm

I also remember reading in one of David Weems' books about a "center channel" version of this, where you placed a speaker between your two front stereo speakers and connected it between the + terminals of the right and left channel. I think I tried it once and it sounded ok with some recordings.

I also tried the Hafler version and was more pleased with that.

There is a lot of really interesting work being done with surround sound and other improvements upon stereo. Unfortunately, most of it is for home theater or portable electronics, and not so much for the audio hobbyist. :(

[cableguy]

My Audiosource Tripath amp is wonderful...I experience a full range of sound that is extremely fast, accurate and transparent at any volume. Course' it is pushing 200 wpc and has some pretty fair to midland components "upstream" to compliment the entire experience. I have not had any of the negative experiences mentioned as of yet.....

Bill

[cableguy]

True if you're using any of the units with nominal 12-volt supply rails such as the SI, Trends, etc. However with a pair of TP-2050 power stages and 30-volt rails one can get very clean sound at some pretty impressive levels.

Shameless plug:

http://winsome-labs.com/

I do want to try one of your amps one day, the look very impressive....:thmbsp:

Bill

[soundmotor]

I managed to make a great trade on a set of B&O ICEpower 500ASP modules.

I really should get them into a chassis and start listening.

[gollum]

My new Denon DRA-37 sounds warmer and more musical than my SI Super T amp and most higher price tag amps. It must be the Denon's equallization and loudness button. Circuit City has a 30 day return policy.
http://usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/3389.asp

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w74/aviserated/DRA37_Front_G_bright_rdax_467x173.gif