HD Audio Anyone?

[Dr. AIX]

This is my first post to the AudioKarma.org forum. I was only recently made aware of it and was surprised to see a few comments regarding my own label's releases on DVD-A. I thought I would chime in and let everyone know that we're still producing new HD Audio products for both optical discs and download. The catalog is up to over 50 titles and most of the new ones were shot with HD Video.

I agree with a lot of what I've read on this forum about how the major labels messed up their chances with high-resolution music releases. I think they figured it was another opportunity to sell old tracks in 5.1 surround. Take your pick, SACD or DVD-Audio, most of the content they chose to release was plucked from their existing catalog and was limited by the fidelity of the original recording medium. In many cases that was analog tape or standard resolution digital...i.e. 44.1 kHz/24-bits. I believe you need to have new recordings made with state 0f the art equipment to really take advantage of the HD Audio specs.

So with the audio HD optical disc formats in decline [I don't honestly think that HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are going to be music delivery formats], it might be the end of any chance for HD Audio formats and surround music in particular. Not so...I'm very excited about media servers and downloads in HD Audio. Why not skip right to the future instead of moving progressively along with EMI and iTunes. 256 kbps still lacks sufficient bandwidth to make music sound really great. And they're still in stereo...I'm a thoroughly surround guy after mixing 800 tracks in 5.1.

I'm convinced that as bandwidth to homes opens up and the proliferation of media servers occurs, that people the value great quality audio [albeit a niche market] will opt to download music files and play them in their home systems or in their cars. In fact, I know of several automotive companies that are developing discrete surround audio servers right now. I own an Acura TL with the ELS system and supplied a "Gift of Music" sampler for their top of the line RL...it sounds amazing.

So I'm curious whether members of this forum would be willing to download HD Audio files in surround for about the same money as Steve Jobs is getting for 256 kbps files in mere stereo. I plan to offer a wide variety of encoding levels [from MP3 to DD to DTS to WMA Pro/Lossless and even 96 kHz/24-bit PCM] in 3 different mixes [2-channel stereo, 5.1 stage and 5.1 audience]. There are even plans to put the HD Video on the site. By the way, there will be no DRM associated with the files.

I believe it's going to happen and Intel has been very supportive of our efforts with demo rooms at a few custom installers shows. We've done EHX three times and CEDIA once. They were the ones that prompted me to create our High Resolution Audio Experience sampler...which has taken quite few awards.

So is there a market for HD Audio? Do people that have media servers at home and would you be interested in downloading large files? I'm planning on launching the site in June...but will always continue to release discs for those customers that like the physical media route.

Glad I found AudioKarma...and I look forward to hanging out here every once in a while. Thanks.

[Duffinator]

So is there a market for HD Audio? Do people that have media servers at home and would you be interested in downloading large files? I'm planning on launching the site in June...but will always continue to release discs for those customers that like the physical media route.

Glad I found AudioKarma...and I look forward to hanging out here every once in a while. Thanks.I'm currently using a Haupauge Media MVP to connect my PC to my HT. It is not the most sophiscated device but I wanted something that would do photos and video as well. I'm still looking for something that will do audio and photos at a minimum with much higher quality audio. And especially something that will take advantage of the nice Burr Brown DAC's in my Denon 3805 receiver. So I'm interested but need better hardware short of a full blown media server. Suggestions?

Good luck with your site.

[tcdriver]

So I'm curious whether members of this forum would be willing to download HD Audio files in surround for about the same money as Steve Jobs is getting for 256 kbps files in mere stereo? Welcome to AudioKarma. I would love high quality 5.1 content that I could download and burn to DVD, “for about the same money as Steve Jobs is getting for 256 kbps files in mere stereo”, to play in my music system.

So is there a market for HD Audio? I hope so. Time will tell.

Do people that have media servers at home and would you be interested in downloading large files?
I do not have a media server. That is why I would like to be able to have content that I could download and burn to CD or DVD, so that I could play it on my music system which is not connected to my computer.

[Dr. AIX]

The are some difficult aspects to downloading files to a local computer and burning a DVD of it. First, what format audio and what format DVD? If a DVD-Video disc, then the 5.1 content will have to be Dolby DIgital with an optional DTS stream. THis means that the surround files will have to be muxed within a DVD authoring system for playability in a standard player...not too difficult but still a challenge.

The other disc based alternative is to download 44.1 kHz DTS digital streams and burn them straight to a CD-R. DTS has been releasing discs in this format for a long time. IT works and is fairly straightforward. The discs can be played in any CD/DVD player with a digital output to a DTS decoder. This is possible even for automobiles.

The end game is for users to have a central server to house the files and have random access to them throughout a home integrated system. THis is what iTrax is considering the most viable option.

[tcdriver]

The are some difficult aspects to downloading files to a local computer and burning a DVD of it. First, what format audio and what format DVD? If a DVD-Video disc, then the 5.1 content will have to be Dolby Digital with an optional DTS stream. This means that the surround files will have to be mixed within a DVD authoring system for playability in a standard player...not too difficult but still a challenge. I am certainly no expert in this matter, however, I believe that there are programs that would allow a consumer to burn a DVD-A. Would this not be a viable method of transferring downloaded material to disc?

The other disc based alternative is to download 44.1 kHz DTS digital streams and burn them straight to a CD-R. DTS has been releasing discs in this format for a long time. IT works and is fairly straightforward. The discs can be played in any CD/DVD player with a digital output to a DTS decoder. This is possible even for automobiles. I have purchased and enjoyed about two dozen dts music CDs. This would work for me. That format can be used in automobiles. Even though I do not now have such a system in my car, I hope to in the future.

The end game is for users to have a central server to house the files and have random access to them throughout a home integrated system. THis is what iTrax is considering the most viable option. I might consider this method of 5.1 distribution if it was the only option. This method does not allow for multi-channel audio in the automobile.

[Dr. AIX]

The programs that allow you to burn your own DVD-Audio discs are not free and require you to "mux" your own program from a set of files. It's not terribly difficult but it's not trivial either. And at the end of the day, you've got a DVD-Audio disc which requires the specialized hardware. I have DVD-Audio in my car but not everyone does...and I'm not sure it's going to be a big format in the future. The automobile companies are experimenting with servers in your car loaded up using 802.11n wireless communications.

DTS CDs are pretty easy compared to the requirements mentioned above...and there is no need to purchase any specialized hardware.

For those that have the optical disc formats in their cars or homes, AIX will continue to ship physical discs. My efforts were prompted by the customers that I have all over the world. It's a pretty expensive and time consuming procedure to ship discs to Thailand or Sweden. This would make it easy and fast without the added taxes etc. We'll see. Thanks for the input.

[Negotiableterms]

Dr. AIX, welcome to AK. Your first thread here is a very interesting, and I hope you'll keep up a dialogue.

Now, they wouldn't let me keep my admin hat here if I didn't ask if you'd be interested in becoming an AK vendor? It's cheap, and it reaches a lot of people who actually buy audio stuff. We don't allow non-vendors to plug their products on AK (no problem so far, btw), so it gets you an exclusive.

If we can tempt you, PM Grumpy and he'll set you right up.

Again, welcome!

[Dr. AIX]

I perfectly understand the balance between shilling my stuff and trying to be an expert with opinions in the world of HD Audio and surround sound. At this point, I simply do not have the resources to pay any site for a dedicated area or banner. My little enterprise is a labor of love and not a source of income.

[Duffinator]

I perfectly understand the balance between shilling my stuff and trying to be an expert with opinions in the world of HD Audio and surround sound. How about an expert discussion of what hardware is needed for HD audio and surround sound. Is the only option a full blown media server?

[Dr. AIX]

There are a couple of approaches to acquiring and playing back HD Audio...but perhaps I should start with a definition. I've been challenged a number of times when talking about so-called "HD" Radio to define what is actually is. For me, HD Audio is recording and reproduction that is equal or nearly equal to the limits of human hearing in both frequency response and dynamic range. This translates to about 20 Hz-20 kHz [although for important reasons the upper limit should be closer to 40 kHz...another discussion another time] and the dynamic range should be 125-135 dB. Just for comparison purposes, vinyl, CDs, analog tape and lossy compression schemes do not meet this standard. SACD, DVD-Audio and certain lossless computer formats do [WMA Lossless, FLAC and Apple Lossless at 96/24].

So in order for a computer server to acquire HD Audio it must be able to store rather large files. A typical iTrax PCM download of a single tune could be in excess of 200 megs. It also must be able to playback audio at that quality. A good quality sound card from Lynx or Creative and do the trick. I've even gotten good quality audio out of the analog outputs from the mother board.

You don't need a full blown server with the advent of Slim Devices SqueezeBox and Transporter...however, they are only capable of converting stereo files at a variety of formats. The computer becomes the download repository and the Slim Devices boxes become the convertor and point of access. THey are very cool devices...I'm pushing for a surround version asap.

Once you've heard the quality that can be delivered through a good quality computer-based system playing a real HD Audio file...there's no going back to CD stereo. When you have a 5.1 system playing a stage mix...the effect in magnified even more.

[tcdriver]

Once you've heard the quality that can be delivered through a good quality computer-based system playing a real HD Audio file...there's no going back to CD stereo. I think a large part of the problem with promoting high resolution audio is that most people never have heard high resolution audio played back on a well set up, high quality system. There are an awful lot of SACD and DVD-A releases that are sourced from low resolution sources. Many, if not all, of the modern popular music releases are specifically mastered with compressed dynamics most suitable for FM radio or MP3 playback.

When you have a 5.1 system playing a stage mix...the effect in magnified even more. Again, I think that too few people have heard a well set up 5.1 music playback system with good source material. At its best, such a system is a dramatic improvement over the two-channel alternative. At its worst, with poor source material and/or a poorly set up or low quality 5.1 system, it can easily come off as hardly worth the bother. 5.1 high resolution audio is fighting the same battles that two-channel stereo fought when it was introduced back in the fifties.

[braxus]

I'm convinced that as bandwidth to homes opens up and the proliferation of media servers occurs, that people the value great quality audio [albeit a niche market] will opt to download music files and play them in their home systems or in their cars.

I would find downloading pointless if I wasn't able to make a hardcopy of the songs in DVD-A or SACD format. DVD-A is possible, but its VERY expensive to buy the program that authors such discs. I like having hardcopies of music. Listenning on the computer, even if connected to the stereo, is not my idea of high fidelity. So for now I will continue to buy the discs in a store. We all know how files on a computer are VERY vulnerable to loss.

[Dr. AIX]

We have tested the downloads for burning to a DTS CD...it works just fine. The DVD-A burns are little more problematic unless you own a piece of software like Minnetonka.

The kind of media servers that can handle the bandwidth and sound output of a HD Audio file can be really good...in fact, as good as the DVD-Audio playback that I've been doing for years.

As far a losing a track...the iTrax.com model keeps a record of your purchases and will allow you to download them again at no charges if your hard drive crashes. I'd say that's better than discs...if you lose one, will the record company replace it for free?

[Donny]

I like the idea and hope it goes mainstream.

[the-real-mandak]

Welcome to AK Dr.Aix.

A bit funny that you ditch analogue tape as a bad source, that kind of rules out all recordings before mid 80's and the 44.1kHz 24bit just about takes the rest. :)

I thought that the standard digital recording was first 48 kHz 16 bit, then 20bit and now 96 kHz 24 bit (with a few recordings at 192 kHz 24 bit)?

But in any case; high res. audio downloaded to a storage media is the way to go. Burning to DVD or what ever is only a short stop before solid state memory takes over and who in heavens name is going to buy a DVD-A player for the car if he can get a player that accepts solid state memory.

Just think dogging station for the iPod in the car, a higher res. and there you go, goodbye to the CD and DVD's in cars. As we say here in DK; the writing is on the wall: http://www.apple.com/ipod/carintegration.html

[Dr. AIX]

I'm not saying that analog tape is a bad source or that CDs cannot sound really great...but there is another level of fidelity and immersion that can only be delivered by HD Audio and 5.1 surround mixes.

I should be ready for beta testing soon...stay tuned and thanks for the input.