LMAO "special" cables!

[WildWest]

You know, for fun I clicked on a cable vendor's site to read what they had to say. It's no wonder that the person with little knowlege of electrical principals and theories buys into the cable con job. I mean with such wording as...

"The ********™ incorporate a special copper optimized for 120 volt AC wall voltage, as well as a special conductor dielectric that is devoid of performance robbing color doping, affording an uninhibited flow of current and voltage. In combination with our industry standard *******™ power connectors, these ultra quiet cables allow for unlimited dynamics, toe tapping rhythmic articulation and exceptional low-level resolution. The standard PK14 and PK10 come with the ******™ 320 Economy IEC and the Marinco® US wall plug. The GOLD versions come terminated with the ******™ ********™ 350 IEC and 330 US wall plug."

Ok I give up. Tell me, what is "special copper"?? Is this a new copper alloy or something? What do they do add silver into it or something to make it conduct better? They don't mention anything of it being a new alloy, just "special. Optimized for 120 volt AC wall voltage??!! I have never in my 25 plus years of electrical industry professional association heard such pure words of bullchit. That wording "special" is merely dressing for the uniformed. Uhhh ohhh lookie here, there is that "special" word again as in special conductor dielectric. Woooooooowww more special stuff. Gezzzz gimme a break. A dielectric is a dielectric in a power cord. Look at all those colorful words that suck the uneducated right in and make them believe they are hearing better sound. (course it sounds better. Look at all the coin they drop on this scam) What is even funnier is that there are people that really think they are hot chit in this hobby and even THEY buy into this crap! GOD what a con!!!! Makes me want to :puke:

Anyway, all you cable buyers and vendors. Sorry if I offended you here. Ignore me and have fun! High end cables are fine, they sure look important and pretty anyway.

[F1nut]

First, let me say that I take no offense to your opinion. Second, I own high-end cables and can tell you with 100% certainty that the positive changes I hear are not because of the money spent.

I'm not sure which cable company you're refering to, but the "special copper" could be single crystal copper or as you mentioned, has silver added. Why don't you email them and ask, perhaps they will enlighten you.

I do not have the knowledge of electrical principals and theories that you do, but I wonder...have you tried any of these "high-end" cables in your system or are you passing judgement without first hand experience with said cables?

This isn't a attack of your knowledge or experience, just wondering if you might be denying yourself of a better musical experience.

[Rob]

WW,

You ain't kidding that there is a lot of fancy talk and clever marketing going on to sell snake oil when it comes to power and audio signal cables. I laughed my ass off the first time I read the term "Age annealed copper". Great euphemism for trying to sell old wire. :D

[omer]

And to think this cable vendor has been around for 20 plus years - yes, OZ is a dealer. It's also not a coincidence that this vendor's cables comes back for trade-in more times than I can keep track of. All because people buy this vendor's product based on the "positive reviews" from the rags, only to realize that their are better cables out there for the money. Puh-leaze! STOP READING AND START LISTENING!

[Raycomics]

I just want to say that O, that is one NICE AVATAR you have there!!!!

[BrianB]

Given Kimber Kable's tendency to suggest that they are the only "scientific" cable manufacturer around, this kind of product description becomes doubly laughable...

[Thatch_Ear]

In BB today I wandered into the mobile audio section and saw an open box item that was a long pair of ICs in a Litz. The claims about breakthrough technology in the wire configuration just about had me laughing my ass off.
I did pick up an 18' length of Carol 12/4 with industrial outlet box attached for $3. I don't know what good the 4th wire will do but the big Carol cable does make very good power cords at very good prices. No Hospital Grade plugs today though.
I need flexible cable to run from the isolation transformer to the outlet box so I can roll the rack out for access to all the wiring but I would bet that the 3 strand solid copper flat stuff used to wire houses with is probably as good as anything out there except for OFC to use for power cords. So if you can use stiff cords get a small roll of that stuff and upgrade!
Vampire does make a heavy gauge solid copper cable for speakers, I bet it would make great power cords. Heavy solid OFC has got to be good stuff.
I have never heard of age alone annealing anything. There will be a realligning back to original crystal composition over time but that is metal memory and not an annealing process. Only heat will do that.

[boostcrazy]

It makes you wonder if the newer fancy power cables of today are that good,then why did companys like sansui not use these on there au-xxx amps? most of them have duel power trans. and the like. just alot of marketing hype if you ask me.

[WildWest]

I really didn't mean to ruffle any feathers here although of course it would. (don't hate me cable guys ok puulllleeaaaasseee?!) Just reading the wording from that supplier really got to me. Yes, I have had a chance to hear high end cables and when I had buddy blind switch between basic proper power cables and the high end stuff I couldn't tell a differance to save my life. Is my hearing not as good? Who knows, I like to think it is though. Well sorry again for bringing it up, I know it can be a tender subject. Just take me out back of the shed and... :twak:

[willysan]

A long time ago, when I studied electronics, I was taught how to design a good power supply, insensitive to input voltage changes.
I was also taught the science of designing good amplifiers that showed a good power supply rejection ratio.
These topics were important because we wanted to get rid of the annoying input voltage changes/spikes/....
Now it turns out the ultra expensive gear we buy is so poorly conceived that the mere change of the ac cord reveals a noticeable improvement.
Have we spent our money wisely?
I live in a 220V, 50 Hz country. Does anyone of you know of a cable able to perform well under those conditions?
Is the 120 V copper chemically different from the 220V one?

[gonefishin]

WW...heck, ain't no big deal ta talk about cables...just so both side could realize that the other will never agree with them.
There ar some funny a$$ advertising in audio...and cables do have to take the cake. But hey...they're using their advertising technique as a sales tool.


Yes, I have had a chance to hear high end cables and when I had buddy blind switch between basic proper power cables and the high end stuff I couldn't tell a difference to save my life. Is my hearing not as good?

I would guess your hearing is just fine. But, it does seem that you system has made some pretty good changes. Right now there are a good number of speaker cables and interconnects available for an in home demo (brought to you buy Omer at OZ Enterprises (http://www.ozenterprises.net/) ). Seems like a good opportunity for most people to try'em. These cables are in The Demo Room (http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=57).

[Andyman]

I'm not a big cable guy, but this just seems to be more BS from the marketing departments. If you haven't noticed, many ads theses days come very close to being total craploa, either by making outrageous claims and later disclaiming them in the fine print, or by promoting attributes that never were there in the first place.

My favorite example are all the "cholesterol free' products out there, especially all the vegetable oils. Cholesterol is only present in animal fats, not in vegetable fats, so off course vegetable oils are "cholesterol free"; it was never there in the first place. I'm anxiously awaiting "cholestrol free" tires and televisions!!

Another fave was "BodySolutions". They were all over the radios about a year ago. They claimed that if you took a couple of teaspoons of their product 3 hours before bed, drank a couple glasses of water and didn't eat, you would lose weight.

Duh!!!! If you stopped eating 3 hours before bed and drank a couple glasses of water to fill yourself you'll lose weight regardless. Pure snake oil.

And we won't even talk about mortgage brokers and credit card companies.

And power ratings on HT box systems. 500 watts with 200 watt consumption???:uzi:


I guess these days one has to be quite the cynic and take most claims with a very large grain of salt. There's way more BS out there than there should be.

[Morden2004]

<< Cable bigots may want to skip this message >>

A couple of years ago I tried some high-end cables. Before I did, though, I got the store to agree to take 'em back if I didn't like them.

I have basically normal hearing with a small mid-range loss (2-5Kcs) in the left ear. I'm therefore not a really good test subject - except that it's my satisfaction that matters.

To be really fair, I set up a (I think) fair test method;

1. I left the existing cable to the right channel speaker
2. I put the HT cable in the left channel speaker
3. I put on sample music with major SPL changes and wide frequency range (one of the recordings I used was an LP of the 1812 done by the LA Philharmonic using real canon fire – recorded in the LA Bowl)
4. I put the system into MONO mode
5. I listened to the sound stage (position) and levels (I used a sound level meter).

My conclusions; absolutely no difference that I could detect with my ears - and that's all that counts. The numbers mean nothing to ears.

The dynamics seems well balanced and the sound stage was centered between the speakers suggesting that the current being supplied to each speaker and/or the impedance of the network was identical in both channels. If there were subtle electrical differences (e.g. SWR’s, harmonics, etc.) I couldn't detect them my ears.

Each speaker was then switched to eliminate (as much as possible) any dissimilarities in the speakers themselves and the tests rerun.

Same results.

I returned the cables.

[rcrump]

Been in the wire biz now for 21 years, don't advertise or even have a website due to the nonsense I see on most of them......Haven't a clue how to design a wire for 120vac, but have a clear idea of how to design for 60hz......Fancy gold over nickel connectors sound just as crappy as nickel plated connectors, but they sure look prettier than the ones I have made with silver over bare 688 brass.....Think everyone who owns a roll of wire is in the wire biz these days and pretty sick of the claims....Recall when TG Audio was one of three companies that retailed power cords and best not claim anything other than take it home and see if you like it.....I had an uphill battle for over ten years to even get folks to try one and now there are folks that "review" power cords when I was told years ago it wasn't important enough for a review by the big magazines.....Come a long way since I heard the difference power cords make on any gear. My partner in CTC Builders, John Curl, would love to design out power cord effects to no avail to date....Latest power supply uses split bobbin EI core transformers, dual secondaries, 8 harris hyperfast diodes, peak charge cap, pi filter and three regulators, two series and a shunt, and power cords make huge differences much to his chagrin.....Point is Curl is a very astute engineer and can't get rid of the effects of power cords so it is just something to live with......Too bad a few folks use ads that read like science fiction.......

[opt80]

Omer,BrianB correct me if I'm wrong but how can A\B comparisons done in a matter of seconds be a realistic comparison?
One of the hardest things for the brain to remember is sound.Switching back and forth between cables would render no difference to the brain and if there was a difference the brain would be incapable of discrimination.

Would it not be better to judge a cable by leaving it in the system for a period of time?
Thus the brain can aclimatize to the sound

Alan

[WildWest]

What?!! Well I totally disagree with you there. Like when tuning guitars, I hear a differance immediately and it allows me to get the tone "right on". Gezzzz if I had to wait and wait why, I would never get it tuned right. Waiting on a sound merely breeds familiarity and misconception. A quick change to me allows my brain to remember better. Simple A/B testing. Since our brains can't remember sound very well it is terrible to wait and wait to try to tell if something is different. Flip between it fast, then you will hear the differance.

Asking a vendor this question? What makes sense for him to tell you? Think about it...

Disclaimer: I love our vendors here! (hence I buy from them) :)

[bigmacc]

opt80 you have hit the nail right on the head. Perhaps you will join me in an experiment for our fellow AK members to put this issue of cables to rest for once and for all.;)

Omer and BrainB will donate both their best SS and tube systems to you and l for let's say three years.We will even accept vintage systems from other members. During that time we will evaluate different cables. Of course we will require numerous audiophile LP's to test. (Hint l love anything thats related to Jimi Hendrix).

I would suggest we even travel during the cold Canadian winters were our Texan members will board us (supply free beer of course). :eek: :D

Now there will be no charge for this valuable service. :p: Maybe Kama can organize this project.:D

[WildWest]

LMAO!! :lmao: Spoken in true bigmacc style! :nutz:

[MikE]

That it is BEST to leave a component, device or particular configuration in place for a period of time to determine it's system benefit. This does not mean that A/B/A switches are useless, they are just less reliable. The later is like looking to hard, hoping to find something, the prior is more Zen-like where if something is to be found it will be, but only when you stop looking: If after months of use how does the change affect your satisfaction / system performance? That's closer to the truth or the truth I seek.

MikE

[grumpy]

Macc

We are trying to make your wish come true. So far the only offer to board you came from someone name Nanuck of the north. I think they mentioned something about you bringing your Thong along :eek: :p: :p: :p:

[MikE]

Where the heck have you been? Braiding wire? Nice to see you posting again. :beerchug: MikE

[WildWest]

"Zen like".... uhhh ohhhh more magic cable words. LOL Sorry MikE, you know I luv ya dude. :beerchug:

[MikE]

:yikes: MikE

[MikE]

:blah: :blah: :blah: MikE

[Don C]

Since These devices (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3032445202&category=294) became available on the market, exotic audio cable sales have increased dramaticly. Coincidence? I don't think so!

[MikE]

What, no takers? MikE

[Dave918]

You guys crack me up :lmao: even when you're in disagreement!

Bigmacc, that's the best offer yet!

-Dave

[WildWest]

Dave...That's surely what makes AK the best Audio site on the internet. :) It's all good!!

(Well cept, TUBES RULE!!!) <snicker> :D

[Reel 2 Reel]

Awww maaan...I missed it ...I needed one of those on my triplatimum grommisator...the fertenated inductor for the dustwippe intake for the warp generator took a dump on me last year and I havent been able to find one around here.... Oh well... maybe next year!

[Dave918]

Now what's wrong with Tubes Rule!!! :grumpy: :p:

-Dave

[THOR]

I think the most hilarous high end cable BS is the cryogenically frozen wire ones. OMFG how can freezing something then thawing it out have any sonic benefits :confused: PUHLEASE!

I will say that if you pay a little more you can get really cool cables that are more user friendly, you know with bannana plugs already attached and more limber so that they lay nice and straight and don't wanna retain the coils like lamp wire offa the spool ;)

To me these are the real benefits of some nice cables. Oh and the fact that you can bring your foolish audio noobie friends over who believe that BOSE is the end all be all of audio and show them your fancy cables and they really believe you are the shiznit ;)

Actually most everyone who comes over sees all the lights bouncing on my 7 eq's/reverb units and are like "oh my god you really got a system here!" you know never mind the speakers or the 5 amps they just look at the lights bouncing like a deer in the road.

Makes me understand why cable manufacterer's can shovel all the BS they do and fools and their money are easily parted ;)

[D-Zyne]

I've said it before...and I'll say it again....

The same audio signal that passes thru your $300 interconnect cable is passing thru .001 of an inch of copper on the printed circuit board crammed inside the chassis. Open up the box sometime and look inside...look at the wiring used in there.

I worked with an installer once that told me he could hear the difference between a standard Triac power cable and a "custom, balanced design" power cable. He spent $400 for this power cable so of course heard a difference...if I spent that kind of many, I'd hear a difference whether it was there or not!

:rolleyes:

[Rob]

D-Zyine is right. Also regarding speaker cables, who considers that once the audio power hits the end of the flying leads on the driver terminals it changes to about 100 feet of thin as a hair copper wire, sometimes aluminum wire, sometimes copper plated aluminum wire. To add insult to injury this thin wire is wound into an inductive coil which bucks the ability of the audio signal to go through it. The speaker circuit is all in series with the cable to the amplifier folks. A series circuit is only as good as the worst link in it.

Changing/improving speaker cables is like laying asphalt on the first 10 feet of a mile long tortuous logging road trying to make the entire road more efficient!

[opt80]

So Rob, so if your house water came from your well in a garden hose it would taste the same as it would through pvc plumbing pipe?
A ride in a Lada is much the same as a ride in a Mercedes?

Electricity sent through your home by aluminium wiring is a good as copper?

No name corn flakes taste the same as Kellog's?

Wire from Home Hardware will sound the same as termiated wire I buy from Omer?(Omer I want my Money back;) )

[F1nut]

Originally posted by THOR
I think the most hilarous high end cable BS is the cryogenically frozen wire ones. OMFG how can freezing something then thawing it out have any sonic benefits

Actually, it changes the molecular structure of metal to a more uniform structure making it stronger and in this case making it able to pass a purer signal. Ask any PhD of physics.

There certainly are a lot of skeptics here. The mind is like a parachute, it only works when open.

[Kamakiri]

Y'know, guys, this cable debate is one of the reasons we have a Demo room here at AK. I'm not going to say that all cables make a night and day difference, but I have found some that do. It all depends on your system and sources IMO.

To bring up the quote from F1Nut about the mind being like a parachute, he's exactly right. This is why I first did the demo on the go-around for the Shun-Mook discs and why we have a free cable demo set up in the Demo Room. Take advantage of it. I mean, after all, if you truly want to be able to call :bs: , you really should try it first. The worst that can happen is that you don't hear a difference, but there's always a chance you might stumble onto something. We've got lots of cables, just email me at audiokarma@aol.com if you'd like to try a set out for the hell of it.

After all, look at all you toobies who made the plunge to the "Dark Side" that were hard core Vintage when you first joined ;)

[Celt]

Just thought I'd throw in my own musings here. Most "hi-end" cables sound different because the manufacturer plays with capacitance and resistance, in effect making each one a tone control. As far as crappy internal wiring, you guys ought to see what's inside most speaker cabinets. I've seen NHT subwoofers and "pro" EV cabinets wired with 20 gauge Chinese angel-hair! :rolleyes:

[Reel 2 Reel]

Actually, the current passing through an audio cable is AC anyway...The electrons don't go through the cable ...They just jump back and forth to the next atom...and thats not very far at all, And electrons are a lot smaller than than strands of wire...

It doesn't work like a water hose or a pipe It's more like that thing with the steel balls hanging by a thread and when you bump one side the energy is transfered to the other side but the balls in the middle don't move
:yippy:

[Rob]

Originally posted by opt80
So Rob, so if your house water came from your well in a garden hose it would taste the same as it would through pvc plumbing pipe?
A ride in a Lada is much the same as a ride in a Mercedes?

Electricity sent through your home by aluminium wiring is a good as copper?

No name corn flakes taste the same as Kellog's?

Wire from Home Hardware will sound the same as termiated wire I buy from Omer?(Omer I want my Money back;) )

Alan,

Unlike molecules of water in your garden hose example, electrons do not 'pick up' flavor or contaminants from their conductive highways. Electrons can not be modified. Some of them however can be prevented from reaching the end of their journey by resistance, being converted into heat along the way.

Yes, electricity reaching your home through aluminum wire is completely indistinguishable from the electricity that might arrive through copper wire as examined at the house.

There is more going on in an AC circuit however than resistance and the speaker circuit, indeed all signal circuits in an audio system represent a complex conjugate, the inductance and resistance introduced by the driver voice coil which I mentioned is but one example. You will get more change in sound by swapping drivers than you will by swapping speaker wire to those drivers.

Regarding the car analogy, that is silly. A human may enjoy a car ride getting to a destination, an electron doesn't have emotions. Both are capable of arriving intact to their destination however.

[Morden2004]

Summing up:

If YOU hear a difference, then go for it.

If not, then your set-up is perfectly alright.

-----------------------------------------------------

First, I think the net effect of the cable connecting your speakers changes if you are SS or tubes. Each is a different match.

Therefore, it’s not unreasonable to assume that one may require a different type of cable (solid vs. stranded, simplex vs. braided/interwoven, etc.) to off-set some of the ‘problems’ already detailed by others for driving speaker loads.

It seems to me that the idea of only ONE World's Best wire is stupid at best and sheer advertising banter at worst. Why not solid copper buss-bar? Galvanized steel pipe?

I seem to remember that somewhere in the distant past some manufacturer buried the power amps inside the speaker enclosures. Anyone recall that? Did that fix this ‘problem’?

I'm an open parachute :)

[WildWest]

Opps....I said that the wrong way Dave. I meant it as a GOOD thing!! :yes:

[Dave918]

Although I'm certainly not qualified to jump into this conversation, I just thought I would add my $.02 for what its worth –

IMO whether or not an expensive IC, power cord or speaker wire will, or will not, make a difference in the sound quality is really immaterial. I don’t have an ideal listening environment. It’s noisy, reflective in some areas, dead in others – the difference, if it exists, would be too subtle to hear anyway. Besides that my ears aren’t that good. However, I do believe that really cheap cables can have a negative effect on sound and possibly on the equipment also. My solution – DIY. That way I can control the quality and cost of the components used, create a cable that looks professional and fits my installation. Like I said, just my $.02 worth.

-Dave

[Dave918]

Originally posted by WildWest
Opps....I said that the wrong way Dave. I meant it as a GOOD thing!! :yes:

Whew! Had me worried there WW! :D

-Dave

[ProAc_Fan]

One's perception is one's reality so if megabuck cables " sound" better to you by all means buy them. It doesn't much matter whether the improvement is quantifiable or not. You like them, you can afford them, you buy them. What the hell its not as if you can take the money with you into the after life. I don't waste money on booze or hookers so if I desire a $300 set of I/C's I'm damn well gonna buy them.

Mike

Spoken like a man who's bought some sweet ass cables from Omer among others.

[opt80]

Rob,I resent having my ideas called silly.I may not be a "scientist" but on this forum I have the right to express my thoughts whether they be right or wrong.

Alan

[WildWest]

Yeah, yeah Rob, knock it off or we will POUND you. Ya sllly guy you... :D

LOL opt, ya gotta admit though, the car analogy is, well..... :screwy:

[opt80]

What I am sayingis that you get better performance in an expensive car than a cheap one .What is so fluffing silly about that.:mad:

Best,

Alan

[Rob]

Originally posted by opt80
Rob,I resent having my ideas called silly.I may not be a "scientist" but on this forum I have the right to express my thoughts whether they be right or wrong.

Alan

Only the one idea Alan. You tried to give credence to the concept that an electron would appreciate the 'ride' through a luxurious cable in a similar fashion to a human being taking a ride in a luxury automobile. Like you I'm also entitled to express my thoughts here and I happened to think that notion deserved to be called 'silly'.

[Rob]

Originally posted by opt80
What I am sayingis that you get better performance in an expensive car than a cheap one .What is so fluffing silly about that.:mad:

Best,

Alan

Alan,

Performance is subjective, so perhaps to someone a cheap car with a big engine would provide more 'performance' than an expensive luxury sedan. Cheap car example: 1970 Chevy Nova, bench seat, 396 or 427 Cu.In. engine. Expensive fluffy car: pick something you like.

This has nothing to do with the way speaker cables or any other wire operates.

[opt80]

Rob,
I am done discussing cables for tonite. see ya later

Alan

[braillediver]

"I don't waste money on booze or hookers"

I don't consider money spent on that wasted either.


Mitch

[sasaki kojiro]

Originally posted by ProAc_Fan
One's perception is one's reality so if megabuck cables " sound" better to you by all means buy them. It doesn't much matter whether the improvement is quantifiable or not. You like them, you can afford them, you buy them. What the hell its not as if you can take the money with you into the after life. I don't waste money on booze or hookers so if I desire a $300 set of I/C's I'm damn well gonna buy them.

Mike

Spoken like a man who's bought some sweet ass cables from Omer among others.





author, author...

[gonefishin]

Originally posted by F1nut
Actually, it changes the molecular structure of metal to a more uniform structure making it stronger and in this case making it able to pass a purer signal. Ask any PhD of physics.

There certainly are a lot of skeptics here. The mind is like a parachute, it only works when open.


No doubt that cryogenically freezing metals does have an effect on the metal itself...weather that change is audible or not, I don't know...I have never tried a cryo cable. but it certainly does make a change.

What I can never understand is when people swear of a change in sound, after putting their components (read wire, tubes..etc.) in their freezer or in a blast freezer. This does nothing to the metal at all...'cept make it cold for a little while.


where's that darn link to the demo room...where'd it go...hmmm

[reyneman]

Ah, the great cable debate.

I can just feel the love here...:p:

[Don C]

"To someone a cheap car with a big engine would provide more 'performance' than an expensive luxury sedan. Cheap car example: 1970 Chevy Nova, bench seat, 396 or 427 Cu.In. engine"


I resemble that remark.

[THOR]

I love bench seats, bucket seats are an abomination! My favorite cars/trucks all had bench seats, just like having a couch in your car ;)

[gonefishin]

Originally posted by Don C
"To someone a cheap car with a big engine would provide more 'performance' than an expensive luxury sedan. Cheap car example: 1970 Chevy Nova, bench seat, 396 or 427 Cu.In. engine"


I resemble that remark.


now there's something worth talkin' about!

Nice Nova! My favorite year was probably the 1964 Chevy II...but much like audio...they're all good ;)

[BrianB]

Originally posted by gonefishin
No doubt that cryogenically freezing metals does have an effect on the metal itself...weather that change is audible or not, I don't know...I have never tried a cryo cable. but it certainly does make a change.

...

where's that darn link to the demo room...where'd it go...hmmm

Are there any cryo-treated cables currently floating around in the Demo Room? Either way, I'd like to donate a pair of Jena Labs cryo-treated interconnects for folks to audition...

[Thatch_Ear]

According to my guru the cryo treatment of the wire basically puts its crystaline structure in about the same formation it would be in after around 400 hours of use. So basically in the long run the quality of the metal is what counts. The big "Freeze" puts it into or alligns it so to speak in the same manner that time does. Call it metal memory, time annealing, what ever. If you have wire that is properly made and is free of impurities it will make good interconnects. Cryo just gives you a more finished product out of the box, not a permanent improvement. Where the wire is also makes a difference. Cryo treating a power cord should not show the kind of improvement that treating ICs will because it is not carrying the signal.
The great thing about DIY tube amps is that you can buy OFC to hard wire your amp with, use OFC RCA plugs and make your cables and ICs out of the same stuff.
I replace wire in the signal path with even the old WE 26 AWG and it helps. When I finally build my dream amps it will be with cryo Vampire OFC magnet wire thru out except the buss bars. Nothing against you fans of silver.
Also I think that if you use OFC wire in your ICs to use gold plated brass plugs to terminate is defeating a lot of the good accomplished by the good wire. Same with cables and banana plugs. Gold over copper is the way to go, or just build your own out of copper and tin them.

[BrianB]

Originally posted by Thatch_Ear
According to my guru the cryo treatment of the wire basically puts its crystaline structure in about the same formation it would be in after around 400 hours of use. So basically in the long run the quality of the metal is what counts. The big "Freeze" puts it into or alligns it so to speak in the same manner that time does. Call it metal memory, time annealing, what ever. If you have wire that is properly made and is free of impurities it will make good interconnects. Cryo just gives you a more finished product out of the box, not a permanent improvement.

Hiya, Thatch!

Well, deep-immersion cryo-treatment may indeed speed up the "burn-in" process, but I'm not convinced that that's the whole story.

A while back, I purchased a matched quartet of Mullard 12AU7s, and had two of the four tube cryo-treated. And despite the fact that both the cryo'ed and the non-cryo'ed pairs have seen quite extensive use by now, the untreated pair has never managed to catch up sonically to the treated pair.

This is only one data point, I know, but I found the results of this little experiment to be quite interesting...

Cheers,
Brian

[omer]

opt80, yes I agree, you gotta give a cable at least a few hours to warm up, and then play stuff you know like the back of your hand.

Now, I'm willing to send ANYONE a free sample of "high cost" cables free of charge to evaluate. PM me or this can also be done via AK's demo room.

Thatch, tinning copper?!?!?! leave it bare, tinning would be the LAST thing I'd do IMHO. I like Vampire as well, excellent product, but we have to keep in mind that qulaity of material is as important as gauge, if not more so. I'd take Vampire's Baby Bat (18awg) over a hardware store's 12awg.

Ray, can you believe that when I showed this to my wife, she said "gawd, my hair is out of place in that one!" UGH, women :eek:

Gone, nice plug, couldn't have said it better myself.:D

Morden2004,
absolutely no difference that I could detect with my ears - and that's all that counts
You're absolutely right, what you hear is most important, not being sold by numbers, review, salesmanship, gauge, price, etc.
There are people who hear no difference, and there are some that do. I for one, fall into the latter group, and thus have focused my business on a product that not many businesses care about. But, it's getting to the people that makes this cable debate so much damn fun. More often than not, a guy/gal who borrows cables and doesn't hear a difference end up buying something else because a relationship got strated. So, we have to ask ourselves something: are these cable companies out to ONLY make a buck, or perhaps offer a good product to complement the gear that someone already has? Looking at some of the products out there, it's easy to see who's trying to do what..........

[F1nut]

I know this is a different animal, but my plane blades and chisel blades have been cryo'd and it's a permanent treatment. I would think it would be the same with any metal.

[Thatch_Ear]

Didn't say it wasn't permanent, said it was artificially speeding up something that would happen over time. With electrical use the amount of time is much smaller than simple aging is.
Since you are talking about steel here is a for instance; Rolls Royce used to let their blocks sit around for maybe a decade before milling. Modern racecar engines have many parts that are cryoed but for the block the cold bath does basically the same thing now that a decade did for RR way back. So if you bought another set of chisels that are not treated you can put them on a shelf and wait 25 years and have basically the same result.
Metals will over time naturally allign the molecular structure to its original state. The stresses of smelting, forging, pulling, stamping, heating and annealing will dissapear.
The figure of 400 hours was given to me during a discussion of a particular wire (Vampire 25.5 AWG OFC magnet wire) used in a particular application ( Interconnects made with 4 exactly the same length pieces in a Litz terminated with Vampire OFC RCA plugs) and the guy that built them, had some wire not cryoed and some that was said that after around 400 hours of use the cryoed wire and the non cryoed wire sounded the same. I don't know why he would lie to me and he has been working on building the best possible interconnects since long before I met him 9 years ago.
That is why a NOS tube that has been sitting around for 70 years usually will sound better than one made yesterday even if the new one is made under better conditions and with better materials (which usually is not the case).
Now the way that wire and other metals are cryo treated is far different from the way tubes are done and it is done by the pallet. The cost per inch of wire to have it treated is very small if you are getting miles of it done at once. The great thing about it is that the is very little change after the 1st few hours of use, so right out of the box you get something that time alone would take decades to produce and over a year of use if you averaged 1 hour per day of listening time. Seems like a good deal to me.
Or of course this is all bullshit, so go buy a roll of lampcord.

[omer]

Thanks for the post Thatch, reading your prose is always informative and enjoyable. :yes:

Isn't part of the fun burning in the cable yourself? :D

BTW, AQ's new DBS system has the same effect as cryoing.

[willysan]

I can easily see the benefits of changing the mechanical properties of metals when we're dealing with engines, chisels and so on.
However, when I focus on electric issues I find it difficult to recognize those benefits.
Perhaps such a thermal process reduces the electrical resistivity but standard copper already has a very low resistivity. The voltage drop associated with the "super"cord would be smaller but such a reduction would be exceedingly small. A well designed power supply should be able to deal with minor input voltage changes.
I usually use oscilloscopes, lock-in amplifiers and other sensitive
equipment and all of them came with standard cords.
O.K. you may still contend Tektronix, Hewlett Packard or Stanford Research are not aware of the benefits of "super" cords, but I tend to believe in their knowledge

[Rob]

Originally posted by willysan
I can easily see the benefits of changing the mechanical properties of metals when we're dealing with engines, chisels and so on.
However, when I focus on electric issues I find it difficult to recognize those benefits.
Perhaps such a thermal process reduces the electrical resistivity but standard copper already has a very low resistivity. The voltage drop associated with the "super"cord would be smaller but such a reduction would be exceedingly small. A well designed power supply should be able to deal with minor input voltage changes.
I usually use oscilloscopes, lock-in amplifiers and other sensitive
equipment and all of them came with standard cords.
O.K. you may still contend Tektronix, Hewlett Packard or Stanford Research are not aware of the benefits of "super" cords, but I tend to believe in their knowledge

willysan,

Save your breath. I agree with everything you said but you miss the point. This subject has drifted so far off the laws of physics and known electrical engineering principles it is both humorous (in a sad way) and sad (in a humorous way) to us engineers.

Many people are born gullible it seems and too many of the snake oil cable vendors are blatantly farming that seemingly unlimited resource. I'm really waiting for someone to bring God into the cable sales. "Our power cables are endoresed by...wait for it...God!" How can you prove they aren't? Absence of evidence is not evidence of absense some will say.

Having said that I will readily agree that some pre-manufactured cables, be they for power, or interconnecting low level audio, or loudspeakers are good quality products that work well. However none of them work well because they are 'magic' or assembled with 'wonder adhesive', or endorsed by some entity not apparently present at the scene. They are made from quality basic materials like copper or silver wire that have been available to electronics manufacturers all along for the manufacture of goods. Such cable products are often reasonably priced. If you want 'magic' added, well that costs a lot more as we've all seen!

[Thatch_Ear]

Think about how much power it takes to run your test gear vs what an amp that uses a 500V power tube (that you want to keep quietly fed) might use and wonder why the hoses on a car's radiator are larger than the ones going to the heater core.
I know that if you are using this gear you know more about electronics than I do, but I am sure than man learned not to stand under the only tree on the plain during a violent thunder storm long before the term electricity was even thought about.
I can grasp the concept of a bigger hose being able to move more with less pressure than a small one and if you pump out of a muddy pond you need to filter water before you drink it. I also think that you will get more clean water if the hose doesn't have a lot of crud in it.
Of course I am of the opinion that when you replace something in the signal path of your system, and saying that what ever you have replaced is inferior with what you replaced it with, you will not notice great changes unless what you replaced was the weakest link.
And if you do make improvements in your power supply they are very hard to detect because what you are trying to accomplish is quiet and your environment never is. Even if you have a completly soundproof room, you will still be in it.

[Thatch_Ear]

You engineers crack me up!! Of course something cannot be true unless you can MEASURE it. I hope you don't go to church.

[WildWest]

Well now this sure turned into a fun thread didn't it? LOL Went all over the damn place I'll say... VERY sorry if anyone got upset though. (I think a few feathers were ruffled)

Regardless, I still stand by what I oringinally posted and am amazed at the cable industry and the words that I read on their sites. It is more snake oil than fact and that's that. Nothing wrong with buying them if you have lots of money to toss around. But to reap huge sonic results for the money spent? WASTE WASTE WASTE. As far as vendors chiming in on this I don't even read those posts. It's in their best interest to have the hobbyist buy into this and while our site vendors are very nice guys and have many good products well... I was born at night, just wasn't last night gents...

[MikE]

Everyone loves a little "cable chat" right? MikE

:no: :finger: :uzi: :rant: :boxing: :thumbsdn: :para: :bash: :twak: :grumpy: :blah: :blah: :blah: :screwy: :gigglemad

[WildWest]

Heck yeah!! Gets the blood churning, good for the heart LOL ;)

[THOR]

That's it!!!! I am gonna get to the bottom of this and solve this debate once and for all!!!!! :mad:

[Rob]

:lmao:

Oh man, where would we be without Thor! :p:

Put a second set of speaker cables in there and leave 'em much longer, then you can also evaluate freezer burn on cryo treated wires. :D

[THOR]

I'll put one in the box with the poscicles and sandwhich another between two Mama Celeste Pizzas to be sure I get valid readings, gotta make sure I do this all scientific like so theres no wiggle room for any naysayers ;) :p:

[Dave918]

I said it earlier today in another thread and I'll say it again - this is one creative bunch around here. Thor, that's one of the best :lmao:

-Dave

[Rob]

Originally posted by Thatch_Ear
You engineers crack me up!! Of course something cannot be true unless you can MEASURE it. I hope you don't go to church.

Easy there! Actually I attend 'church'' regularly. I actually work at one who's sole existence is to measure and study the heavens through the collection of God's little messengers of knowledge. Scientists call 'em photons. We don't usually attribute them to God however, but that is a word all seem to understand. I spent years at remote locations in semi isolation living like a Monk at a Monastery following this search for truth, so please don't tell me about 'church'. There are many possible paths in the direction of enlightenment. I don't question yours.

Alchemy in audio, now that's open for exposure and ridicule!

[grumpy]

Last I heard god didn't give a rats ass about cables so lets leave him outta this silly ass debate ! :rolleyes:

[WhiteSE]

Well, I must say,,,for something to exist, it has to have some measurable property. Just because we dont know how to measure something at the moment, it doesnt mean that it doesnt have a measurable property.

I am talking in the physical world mainly...leaving religion out of it...Now, why in the 21st century would it be hard to measure cable differences in labs, but so easy to detect by our ears?
It just seems that the triumph in marketing is that people cant separate what is actually heard, and what is expected to be heard....And NO ONE is immune to that...

[mech986]

Hey Thor,

As a followup experiment, if one were to eat enough popsicles during a listening session, one might get a brainfreeze enough to realign your neural polarity. :scratch2:

Then the brain may become one big superconductor for all those audio impulses coming in from our ears. :hdphones:

I'll bet we could sell "Audio Popsicles" that would enhance anyone's listening experience. Problem is, someone would probably want them even colder (like dry ice). Then we'd have a hard time pulling them off all those tongues!!! :yuck:

Regards,

Bart

[CarlV]

Cryo-head... I like it! :D

Carl

[Reel 2 Reel]

well anyway ...lets pop that pizza in the nuker!!

[Morden2004]

I just have to post this message; (from another thread)

In a message, GaryP (another Canuck) said:

"Slightly off topic...

I rewired my Large Advents when I was on a rewiring kick. They sounded better with Kimber speaker wire in them. Smoother, more dynamic.

Just a thought..."

And, in another thread a controversy rages on about HT speaker cabling. Gary brings up an interesting point that hasn't yet been raised in that other thread;

If the wire from the speaker terminals inside the enclosure feeding the cross-over and drivers is 18Ga stnd. stranded, then WHAT good is 5 feet of $100 + cabling sitting upstream of the box?

------------------------------------------------------------

Anyone care to tackle that question?

Paul

[Don C]

The signal loss in a cable that is too thin for the power that it carries is going to be proportional to the length of the cable. That's why the little flex lines that carry the signal from the frame to the cone can be so thin. And it also means that the cables inside the box don't matter as much as the ones outside the box, just because they are shorter.
Hey Thor, instead of putting those cables in your freezer, let me carry them around in my Nova for a while. It will have the same effect, honest.

[Rob]

Originally posted by Morden2004
I just have to post this message; (from another thread)

In a message, GaryP (another Canuck) said:

"Slightly off topic...

I rewired my Large Advents when I was on a rewiring kick. They sounded better with Kimber speaker wire in them. Smoother, more dynamic.

Just a thought..."

And, in another thread a controversy rages on about HT speaker cabling. Gary brings up an interesting point that hasn't yet been raised in that other thread;

If the wire from the speaker terminals inside the enclosure feeding the cross-over and drivers is 18Ga stnd. stranded, then WHAT good is 5 feet of $100 + cabling sitting upstream of the box?

------------------------------------------------------------

Anyone care to tackle that question?

Paul

Paul,

You have raised an excellent point which I believe was actually raised here earlier regarding cheesy wiring inside the box after the speaker terminals. My point about "once the signal hits the 100 feet of hair thin voice coil all bets are off too" is along the same lines. A series circuit (a speaker circuit in this case) is only as good as it's weakest link!

It must simply be a case of "What you cannot see cannot hurt you" at play here.

Truth revealed by a few engineers cannot possibly overcome the mass of misleading advertising at play out there on this subject. People are easily brainwashed. That is exactly what mass media advertising is fine-tuned by design to do, and it works!

[Morden2004]

Rob:

Greed or desire. That's what the advertisers want to trigger.

Paul

[Thatch_Ear]

My father has a degree in electrical engineering and it was a well known fact in 1962 that PP was superior to SE because it had more power and less distortion. During the same time it was proved that SS was superior to tubes for audio because there was more power and less distortion on top of the fact that it used lost less energy to heat. We have often discussed the things proven by measurement, or proven not to be true from lack of.
And Grumpy, I never said a thing about God, I mentioned church.
And for all you engineers that consider music to be art but audio to be engineering, well it just makes me sad. Usually something is done before somebody tries to explain why it works.
The Golden Rule was used by artists millenia before someone decided to put a bit of math to it. Electricity and conductance, copper, silver etc are all natural and were around before man. When you burn a piece of wood you release the power of the sun.
If all tubes that are 12AX7s do not sound the same then why would all cables made out of copper sound the same?
If every amp that produces 100 watts per channel doesn't sound the same with the same speakers then why would every cable made out of the same material sound the same?
If all plugs for power cords are equal then why are there different grades available like industrial and hospital grades.
I am not going to say that any claims made about any cables that I haven't listened to in my system are true, but I do know that on my amp that has the OFC plugs and binding posts, the high grade OFC and silver interior wiring and the best tubes that I could afford to buy that the ICs that I use are superior to anything you can purchase at Best Buy. My speaker cables with my amp are better than anything that you can purchase at Best Buy.
A voice coil might be the most fragile part of a driver, but unless it is one of these new inefficient made to take high wattage so as to destroy ear drums it is not the weak point as far as sound goes. Action, reaction, mass and motion, there is energy loss in running a driver. It makes perfect sense to need a cable larger that what is in the voice coil to deliver current as the power loss is not happening in the cable.
Impurities in the metal will cause resistance thus robbing power and effecting the signal.
I use ICs that I do purchase at Best Buy to connect my vintage gear to the source and I use HT zip cord to connect my vintage gear to the speakers they drive and I don't bother upgrading the interior wires or binding posts of those speakers because it is not worth the cost to do so. The weakest links are the connectors and interior wiring of the vintage gear and the speakers.
Now I am not an engineer but I am led to believe that when you twist wires together that it causes inductance. Inductors are used in crossovers because they limit frequencies does using a wire that limits frequencies the smartest thing to do when hooking up equipment that is made to reproduce frequencies? Oh I suppose that the high pass is above our hearing, but unless you MEASURE every piece of wire you use how will you really KNOW?
Now I have never looked under a powerfull microscope at metal before and after annealing but I do know what the effect is when I try to shape it with a hammer with or without annealing. If I don't it will crack. If I do I can move it around for a while before I have to anneal it again. Now I can grasp the concept of exciting the molecueles with heat and the freezing them spread out when I plunge the metal into water, but since I can't really see all this all I really care about is the result.
People can go on and on about why something does what it does but all I really care about is the result. If I am told that using a piece of solid pure metal wire is better than using stranded impure metal wire when building an audio amp I will do it because it makes sense to do it. I know that a solid piece of wire will not cause inductance and I know that impurities can cause resistance and change values. I have read that copper has much better conductivity than brass so I will not use brass connectors in the signal path. I know that copper oxide will not conduct (cool for Raku though) and even though gold is not as good a conductor as copper it won't oxidize so I will buy gold plated copper connectors.
What does this have to do with cables and power cords? Everything. Why? Because everything makes a difference and the more you pay attention to details, the more details there are. If you do not pay attention to details like high quality connectors, proper materials in crossovers, better jumpers, clean power source etc then the less details you need to pay attention to like power cords, ICs and cables.
It all boils down to what you want to get out of your system and if getting a bit more performance out of it means anything to you. Yes many of the claims that cable manufacturers make might be way over board for anybody, but if you are using a 30 year old piece of gear with 30 year old connectors, ferrite core chokes and non-polar electrolitics in your speaker crossovers then even if the claims are true they will not work for you. You can never realize the true quality of any piece of gear if it is the strongest link in your audio chain.
So chances are any differences will not show up on any piece of measuring gear and chances are that if you play with only vintage gear without upgrades then you won't hear it either.
Bon Appetite!
And really, engineers do crack me up. Not just electrical like my dad, or mechanicle like my brother in law, but especially architectual, because they are just so funny. They are like Republicans. Tunnel vision so bad ya just want to poke em with a stick to see if they notice. But hey, some of my best friends are engineers!

[Rob]

Thatch,

Two things.

First. Making a conductor solid rather than stranded does not eliminate or reduce the inductance. Flattening the round conductor into a ribbon can help carry high frequencies because it increases the portion of the copper that is in the cross-section used by skin effect.

Second. I don't see what your point is. I haven't seen anybody say that connectors, conductors and dielectric materials used in speaker cables, power cords and signal interconnects shouldn't be of a high quality. I've never ever said that myself and wouldn't. Inferior materials used here, or anywhere else could compromise the performance of a sound system. That's a no-brainer.

[D-Zyne]

This is getting ridiculous.....

I'm unsubscribing from this thread.

Bye!

[Rob]

Me too. I think I'll go pray that my own speaker cables go up in monetary value by about 20 dB (100X). That undoubtedly will make them sound noticeable better.

[THOR]

First test on the cables stored in the popsicle box showed that they had a SWEET sound to em' :p:

[WildWest]

Well I for one enjoyed this thread. Many things were brought up that made me think. I like that! While I still think the whole cable industry is mostly a PILE O CRAP I did enjoy the points of view here and am not going to run away crying foul, foul. To me its all good discussion regardless of what I think I know. Thanks for all whom posted and thanks for the laughs too! < Thor :D >

[omer]

Well said WW, discussion and keeping things in perspective should be what's important.;)

Hey THOR, maybe we can market your cable recipe? We can call it Thor's Icicle.. :D

[MikE]

I have avoided entering into this discussion [for obvious reasons] but if no one else grasps your point, I'll go on record and say, I do. And no, I will not attempt to support the points you have made save this one. To quarantine art from technology is indeed a sad thing. Engineers tend to live in the black and white were notes are measured, art on the other hand flourishes in the space between them. We will always have these arguments because our shared passion - audio - lives in both worlds, simultaneously.

MikE

[omer]

Amen brother. :hdphones:

[Rob]

I thought I was done but I had to add this.

Nice words Mike. ART ABSOLUTELY!!! No doubt in my mind that it belongs mixed into the manufacture of top notch audio equipment. I strive hard to incorporate art into all that I design. And I recognize that the label art refers to more than just the physical looks of the stuff. It also encompasses the skill of the designer to assemble components and ideas that make a synergistic end result where the whole represents much more than just the sum of the parts. This is my wavelength too! I certainly consider myself as much an artist as an engineer.

Art yes..... but alchemy NO!

[WildWest]

Well said Rob, you always lay it down better than I can. :)

[Thatch_Ear]

If you didn't get my point, let me put it another way. There was weather before the barometer and electricity before Ohm. Many of the world's greatest inventions were not done or come about because of engineers.
Many improvements in HiFi do come about because of DIY audiophiles doing things because they have not been trained to "know" that it doesn't make any difference what kind of wire that you use.
My doctors trained in Western Medicine do not believe in accupuncture and other snake oil therapies or the benefits of using herbs and vitamins vs using lab created pharmicuticals. If I had followed the advice of my doctors and not deviated from the path they showed me I would have died a decade ago.
To claim that something is possible or not because you have been trained to do so and that it has been proved is often taking a leap of faith. Many proven things get unproved at a later date.
I am not taking the stance that the claims behind the cable hype is true as I see most of it a a bunch of bullshit aimed at marketing. I do take the stance that some of the cables do make a difference as I have heard it.
My earlier statement about engineers cracking me up was not aimed at Rob. The truth is that engineers do crack me up. Trying to argue a point with an engineer is often as impossible as arguing with a religious fanatic.
No matter how well trained you are there are no absolutes.

[Jack G]

Originally posted by Thatch_Ear

I am not taking the stance that the claims behind the cable hype is true as I see most of it a a bunch of bullshit aimed at marketing. I do take the stance that some of the cables do make a difference as I have heard it.
My earlier statement about engineers cracking me up was not aimed at Rob. The truth is that engineers do crack me up. Trying to argue a point with an engineer is often as impossible as arguing with a religious fanatic.
No matter how well trained you are there are no absolutes.

Well said Thatch_Ear
One has to seperate the marketing from the product.
I too believe that cables can effect the sound of a system, and I have done blind tests on my wives, who have always noticed a difference.
My Father and all his freinds are/were EEs. I've never met a more boring, narrow minded bunch of people in my life. That black and white mentality drives me nuts.
to each his own,
Jack

[gonefishin]

Originally posted by Jack G
Well said Thatch_Ear
One has to seperate the marketing from the product.
I too believe that cables can effect the sound of a system, and I have done blind tests on my wives, who have always noticed a difference.
My Father and all his freinds are/were EEs. I've never met a more boring, narrow minded bunch of people in my life. That black and white mentality drives me nuts.
to each his own,
Jack

:bs:

maybe they're just boring to you...because you have nothing in common with them.


Good thing we've got a mix of people in this world...other wise...little would ever get accomplished. Could you imagine if all we had were dreamers who have an entirely open mind?

Or if everyone simply stuck to the facts as they knew it...only referencing what has previously been done.


Seems to me that both of these worlds would accomplish very little. One would have ideas up the ying yang, but no means to either prove or accomplish much...the other group would have all the knowledge and understanding with no means to expand upon what they already know.




This thread did start out with some good discussion...but has seemed to turn into what many other cable discussion turn into.


oh well

:puke:

[Morden2004]

What about a religious fanatic Engineer?

Q. (for Engineers and DIY'ers) At what guage does it become a dimishing return with speaker wire?

Obviously, you can't pump 50 watts into an 4 ohm load over 22 ga wire. On the other hand, parallel 12 ga is likely too much because ....?????? Inductance? Capacitance? What?

Paul

<< Question in the microwave lab (1962) - "Do the electrons really run down those rubber hoses?" >>

[Jack G]

>>>maybe they're just boring to you...because you have nothing in common with them.<<<
Quite right. I come from a different background(Molecular Biology), where things tend to be more fluid.
I'm sure someone somewhere finds them not boring.

>>>This thread did start out with some good discussion...<<<

Actually no, this thread started out like so many other "my zipchord-is-good-enough" cable threads.
Like I said,
to each his own.
Jack

[Lefty]

I see my work is already done on this subject.

I've enjoyed following this mostly due to the fact that any and all facts for opinions I have on this subject have already been covered well by some of the intellegent members of this forum.

Well done

Lefty

[WildWest]

"Actually no, this thread started out like so many other "my zipchord-is-good-enough" cable threads".

Somewhere, someone said to me that I wan't reading what was being posted previously. Actually this tread started out with the hype and story telling that cable manufactures can do with respect to product that is way over priced.

[Rob]

Originally posted by Morden2004
What about a religious fanatic Engineer?

Paul




You aren't likely to find too many in that category since one occupation requires an analytical mind, the other quite the opposite.

[Jack G]

Originally posted by WildWest
"Actually no, this thread started out like so many other "my zipchord-is-good-enough" cable threads".

Somewhere, someone said to me that I wan't reading what was being posted previously. Actually this tread started out with the hype and story telling that cable manufactures can do with respect to product that is way over priced.

That was mobile.
OK. Do you buy the hype of other products advertising? If not, why would you bother with the marketing for cables?
More importantly, what cables do you use?
I'm just curious.
Jack

[gonefishin]

Originally posted by Rob
You aren't likely to find too many in that category since one occupation requires an analytical mind, the other quite the opposite.


yet one has driven the other...and, when you look back, it is unable to explain it.

there have been no shortage of scientists that were religious...tho the description of religious was not always the same....and not easily defined.


'course...that's another discussion ;)

[WildWest]

"That was mobile" :D

Hype of other products? Sure, depends on the product. Some of the advertising I see is good advertising and honest. Call it "hype" if you will but one has to adverstise. I do for my company.

What cables do I use? Geeee ya know to be honest, I can't name brands. I bought some various things from Parts Express, good shielding, proper gauge for the use and more importantly..Realistic price. Some of the other things I have are cables that my brother brought back from the recording studio a few years ago.

[WhiteSE]

After living in many countries I have found that the "engineer" mentality is more prevalent here in USA, and some russian engineers..

I have met many engineers from civil, mechanical and aerospace that feel that some of the best solutions from problems involve having a more abstract and artistic mind...maybe its not the outcome, but how was the issue approached...

My dad was one of the best civil engineers around (wrote articles, worked with some of the most complex engineering projects worldwide) but was a soul kind of guy....a musician as well, and soccer fanatic..he was born in Argentina. Some engineering can be done with "inspiration"...

Now, with the cables issue, I dont know, as I havent had any expensive cables,,,but I am of the position that just because it makes sense, it doesnt mean that the difference is audible..but we do know that its easy to hear what we want..

[Rob]

Gone,

I was answering the question regarding "Religious Fanatic". How many scientists like you mention were of that ilk? Nowadays Religious Fanatic is increasingly one who has a newfound interest in "Explosives 101" and wants to blow more than half of the human population to smithereens in order that they themselves can get to what they have been brainwashed into believing is heaven.

[THOR]

Originally posted by Lefty
I see my work is already done on this subject.

BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH intellegent members of this forum.

Well done

Lefty

Obviously a reference about me ;) :p:

[WhiteSE]

Originally posted by THOR
Obviously a reference about me ;) :p:

Well, we all know THOR and his Hammer...all brawn and no brains...:D :bigok:

[gonefishin]

Rob...



Well then...doesn't my response look foolish :nutz:


take care>>>>>

[Thatch_Ear]

Screw most all of yall. This was not about cables but about mentality. There are those to be screwed and those that will screw them. Typically those that will be screwed are done so by advertisers that use engineering terms. Others are screwed by engineers that have turned advertiser and promote their product because of proven facts by other engineers. Since these facts have been proven by engineers you can not even consider that the facts might be wrong.
Or you can't consider that the facts might be correct. It doesn't really matter in such a division in this.
As far as I know there is no meter to measure audio quality. Untill you show me FACTS generated from this meter to show who is wrong and who is right, everyone is wrong( except me ), and everyone is right ( includes me ).
This is like a dog chasing it's tail as far as discussion or debate goes. The thing to realise is that the ICs, Cables, etc of yesterday have been put aside for what is in the most part better.
I do not except anything learned by rote or things expanded off of the rote knowledge as the ultimate truth.
All Yall!
:butt1:

[gonefishin]

LOL :lmao:


somehow I followed that :)

[omer]

I thought this hobby was supposed to be fun? Lighten up guys! Spin some tunes, kick back, and relax. Stop being so damned analytical about everything. SHEESH! :dammit: :beerchug: :lurk: :rockon: :hdphones:

[MikE]

I got to spend sometime alone this evening and was able to continue my sampling of the interconnects Sasaki and Ward were kind enough to send me. And while I'll be posting my review shortly, let me say that I was quite surprized by the effect the cables had. I think I've finally found one to replace my Silverline's which have been long overdue for replacement.

MikE

[Rob]

Originally posted by Thatch_Ear
Screw most all of yall. This was not about cables but about mentality. There are those to be screwed and those that will screw them. Typically those that will be screwed are done so by advertisers that use engineering terms.........
All Yall!
:butt1:

I just went back and looked at the post that started this thread. By golly Thatch has nailed it! :p:

[Rob]

Originally posted by gonefishin
Rob...



Well then...doesn't my response look foolish :nutz:


take care>>>>>

Gone Buddy,

I really wouldn't lose any sleep over it. ;)

[BrianB]

Why is it that cable debates almost always degenerate to this level? :(

Even though I'm sure that a number of fellow AKers are now weary of this thread, I'd like to add a few more comments of my own. As an audio dealer, I am well aware of the amount of pseudo-science and manipulative advertising that is spewed forth by a number of high-end audio cable manufacturers. And as a trained research psychologist, I am continually impressed by just how much our expectations can affect our perception - we often see just what we want to see, hear just what we want to hear, etc.

That being said, I still believe that a number of the "exotic" audio cables to be found nowadays do indeed live up to their promises. So, to all those folks who would like to argue that every claim made by the high-end cable industry is an exaggeration at best, and more often than not an outright lie, let me ask the following questions:

1) Do you really believe that we know everything there is to be known about the behavior of electrons in different conductive environments?

If so, then there are a number of very active researchers in various physics departments that need to be told to halt their research programs immediately, as there is nothing left to be learned in this area.

2) Do you really believe that the perceptual systems of humans and other animals are inherently less sensitive than - and therefore inferior to - today's most sophisticated measuring devices?

It is sometimes claimed that if two audio components measure identically on the test bench, then they must sound identical as well. In other words, if a machine cannot detect a difference, then no biological being should be able to, either. But consider this by way of analogy: Several oncologists have recently documented that certain canines can reliably "sniff out" cancer cells in humans. Nevertheless, scientists are unable to describe what olfactory cues the dogs are detecting. Here is a case in which a biological "measuring device" seems to be far more sensive than any artificial "perceptual system" that we have been able to construct.

3) Do you really believe that if you yourself cannot hear a difference between two audio components, then anybody who claims that they can is simply deluding themselves?

Researchers in the area of psychometrics have documented significant variability among individuals in terms of "just noticeable differences" (or JNDs) along a number of perceptual dimensions, including auditory ones. Much of this variability can be attributed to genetics, age, and damage to receptor cells (which will happen if you attend too many loud rock concerts without hearing protection). But experience also plays a role here - the more expertise you have in a given perceptual domain, the more fine-grained your JNDs will be.

To give an example, I have a friend who is a wine enthusiast, and who regularly attends various wine-tasting events - something that I have never done. And while both he and I like wine, his ability to distinguish among and appreciate various types, brands, and vintages of wine are VASTLY superior to my own. He can detect differences in taste that I cannot - and I don't consider him to be the least bit delusional in this regard! It's simply a matter of experience...

And while we're considering this particular example, let me say one more thing. If my friend decided to spend $150 on a bottle of fine wine, I would be loath to criticize him for doing so. Granted, I would not be able to appreciate the purchase in the same manner as he would - and for this reason I would NEVER spend $150 on a bottle of wine for myself - but I could understand his desire to purchase this bottle of wine.

By the same token, if a seasoned audiophile decides to spend a few hundred dollars on an audio cable that truly sounds better to his or her ears, then why take offense?

Happy listening!
Brian

[Morden2004]

Brian:

I think that you have concluded this "debate" quite nicely.

It's all in the head. ...... meaning an individual's perception of the differences between audio components is just that - their perception. What we often fail to do is allow others their right to exercise "their" perception.

Period.

Thanks for a great wrap-up!

Paul

[opt80]

Brian,Omer,well said.

[sasaki kojiro]

I don't see why this thread is in the review forum. It was initiated on a challenging and provacative note, and that's where it ended.

[WildWest]

WAIT A MINUTE!! I'm gonna be wrappin up this thread in this here town. <adjusting six shooter>

I am sure glad I started this thread. While others may not be and are sick of this same old debate, I had not really been involved in such an exchange nor read one in depth. This one I followed completely and all points of view were put on the table. Things were said by folks that had really not entered my mind before with respect to this subject. I have to say, it got me to thinking and that's a good thing. While some may have walked away slightly offended, for that I am sorry. Personlly I took it all in stride even when I was called out on the carpet by the few. Gezzzz frankly I don't give a rats ass what any of you think of me and my beliefs. On the other hand, I don't mean to come into any forum and make waves either and while I knew that I was stirring the "doo doo" ( as billfort so well put it ) I also knew that with so many sharp folks that this forum supports, I would get excellent results...And I did. I am going to have a more open minded with respect to cables and see if again I can't get some results were as before I never have. It's been a while and the gear is better now... Thanks everyone!! :thmbsp:

P.S. I dont feel that this thread ended on a "challenging and provacative note". No, I feel it ended on a positive note. For me anyway...