LMAO "Special" cables, thread closed

[Thatch_Ear]

By WW who started it. I did find this whole thing very interesting as it really showed a lot about how different peoples perceptions and training can open or close them to different ideas about something as simple as a piece of wire.
I trained as an artist, trained again as a wine expert which ended up being my career, and grew up with good Hi Fi in the house. In the years of my dissability it has been a kind of natural progression to go from a training that involved physics but relied on senses, to one that relied on senses alone to one that involves senses but involved physics.
I take nothing for granted but do know that it takes a knowledge of Ohm's Law to build an amp. I can't see math, but I can see a garden where one is yet to be made. I can see a sculpture in a piece of wood and can create a painting, design a drawing, can fall into space at night in the desert.
I am a sceptic even if not from the "Show ME State". I do not believe in absolutes because life is not made of them. As much as I respect anyone who designs anything I can't help wondering about how the designer views the world. Do they look or see? What kind of blinders has their education put on them?
Where will this cable thing end? It probably won't while there are cables. And as long as there are cables and more than one type of HiFi there will be more than one type of cable.
Some buy for looks and some buy for sonics while some buy for prestige. Everybody makes choices and hopefully it is the right choice for them.
The only thing that really matters in the end is if you are enjoying your music.

[omer]

Amen Thatch.

Ironically I received an email last night from Ecoustics.com about cables and such. It's formed like an FAQ, I thought it would be good to post it here as info for all.

And, if we all want to generate another 122 post thread, so be it. :D

Audio Cables - Fact & Fiction Revealed
An Interview with Gene DellaSala from Audioholics.com on Audio Cables

Q:
Can cables make an audible difference?

A:
Most definitely, but usually not for the reasons that many exotic cable vendors would have you believe. And the “difference” may or may not be a good thing. We refer to companies that produce high glossy cables constructed of elaborate metals and/or wrappings supported by fancy marketing to justify high prices as Exotic Cable vendors. We have seen many exotic speaker cables that actually acted like a tone control rolling off high frequency response due to excessive resistance and inductance, while we have seen other cables make a system sound bright because of their excessive capacitance causing the amplifier to peak its high frequency response. Be cautious about exotic cable vendors that do not specify cable metrics or downplay the importance of measurements.

Q:
What is the purpose of an audio cable?

A:
That’s a good question and certainly often a misunderstood one due to the bombardment of misinformation in the audio industry. The basic purpose of a cable is to transfer the signal from point A to point B unadulterated. At audio frequencies the goal is to minimize losses by controlling the amount of Resistance, Inductance and Capacitance. For speaker cables, we have found the primary concerns for optimal signal transfer is to minimize resistance, followed by inductance, while also keeping capacitance in check to eliminate the possibilities of amplifier oscillation or frequency peaking. For line level analog interconnects it’s a good idea to use cables that are low in capacitance and are well shielded to eliminate interference and external noise sources from mitigating into the signal. For video, good shielding and maintaining the proper characteristic impedance is vital. For more details on cable basics, I encourage your readership to review our Cable Budget Guidelines article.

Q:
Should I buy expensive cables?

A:
Provided that the cables are properly designed and meet your specific requirements I see no reason why you shouldn’t invest in quality, not necessarily expensive cables. However, many of the lavishly priced exotic cables are not designed well and more often the case than not, cheaper cables, which are usually not covered in bogus marketing literature, offer better performance and certainly better value.

Q:
How much should I invest in cables?

A:
We generally recommend about 5-7% of total system cost. Anything more would be better spent on higher performance electronics, speakers, room treatments or software.

Q:
Why do some cables cost so much?

A:
In my opinion, there are several reasons actually.

1) In HiFi, if a product doesn’t carry a very high price, it won’t be taken seriously by many audiophiles.

2) Many of the exotics are niche products that sell in low quantities to a limited market, thus in order to be profitable must carry a high price tag to pay for company overhead and marketing expenses.

3) Some of the exotic cables do involve higher material costs. While this may not improve the electrical or audible characteristics of the cables, it does usually improve their cosmetics and product appeal.

Q:
Who really makes cables, and who just puts their logo on them?

A:
Very few cable vendors, especially the exotic brands, manufacturer their own cables. Most of them buy large reels of wire from China and either repackage them locally or have them labeled with their Logo overseas. In fact we usually receive 2-3 emails/week from overseas vendors wanting to manufacturer and brand Audioholics.com cables for us. What do you think, good idea ?

Q:
Why is there so much confusion about cables?

A:
I suspect misinformation and low consumer awareness are the key reasons. Of course glowing subjective reviews and endorsements in audio publications don’t help this either. Many exotic cable vendors know the average consumer/audiophile has little or no background in electronics, yet they somehow have to justify why their products cost so much and why the consumer/audiophile needs them. So with that, the exotic cable vendor concocts marketing literature, usually in the form of a story, based on half engineering truths or misapplied engineering principles to lure you in. They often reject the proven fundamental truths that govern these principles and claim established associated theories cannot be verified through measurements or engineering certainties, but instead only through hearing. What they fail to provide however is repeatable statistical data and correlation that their cables do sound “better” for the reasons they tout. They often go one step further and claim it can take weeks for the consumer to hear the benefits of their cables since they require a break in period. In reality cable break in is another misnomer, which I suspect is used to convince the customer to keep the cables beyond the retailers return policy. In addition, statistically, the longer the customer keeps a product the less likely they are to return it.

Q:
Are there any industry cable standards?

A:
Unfortunately no. Organizations such as the FTC do not regulate cable vendor claims and most cable vendors are slick with their claims by how they phrase them by using terms like (can, may, in our opinion, etc). Their claim about solving a problem that really doesn’t exist is mostly nebulous. For example, if the vendor claims their cables resolve “Strand Jumping” ten times better than ordinary 12AWG Zip Cord, then since this problem really doesn’t exist, ten times zero is still zero.

Rest assured that Audioholics.com will always serve the consumers as the voice of reasons about cables and will question illegitimate claims made by any cable vendor when they surface on our radar screens. We are working to establish standards for the audio industry on cables as you will soon see in up and coming articles.

Q:
Why aren’t hardware vendors who design the electronics more vocal about cables?

A:
This is a rather complicated subject that I will try to answer as eloquently as possible without offending anyone. Many of the reputable hardware vendors I have spoken with feel exactly as I do about cables, at least privately. I suspect they aren’t publicly vocal about it because they don’t want to undercut their dealerships. Believe it or not, most dealer’s bread and butter result from cable sales. Cables offer some of the highest profit margins in the industry. It is not uncommon for a dealer to do in excess of $100K/month in revenues for cable sales where they would be lucky to do 1/4th of that in sales and maybe 1/8th in profit margins of say loudspeakers.

Q:
What marketing jargon do I need to be aware of?

A:
Here is a list of the top ten marketing gimmicks that we noticed many of the exotic cable vendors enjoy promoting: Top Ten Signs a Cable Vendor is Selling You Snake Oil


About Gene DellaSala (gds@audioholics.com)

Gene DellaSala (GDS), founder of Audioholics.com, has been an audio enthusiast since childhood. His passion for audio increased with age, which lead him to study Electrical Engineering where he earned a B.S.E.E. from the University of South Florida and pursued a career as an Analog Engineer. Gene currently works in the telecommunications industry designing audio communications equipment for a national defense company. Gene pursued his audio career as a hobby, but has had major impacts on the audio industry since Audioholics.com’s inception. He and his staff have developed one of the top ranked audio information websites on the internet which continues to expand on a daily basis due to increased membership and direct interaction with many of the leading audio manufacturers in the world.

[Morden2004]

Thanks, Omer. Makes for a good read.

Paul

PS: As we wind down this thread, I have discovered a very unique way to discern the difference, if any, of different speaker cables using my AU-999. There is a good scientific way to do this. If anyone is interested, I'll start a new thread - but I don't want to stir up flames from embers - I'm only interested in learning more about this hobby and the equipment.

[Thatch_Ear]

Start another or continue on this one.
About the Audioholics article there is one thing that is not quite correct about the capasitance. While it must be limited capasitance can be a good thing for speaker cables being used with tube amps. It does all the shielding that is needed and the capasitance generated by a Litz braid can be limited by the number of strands and the length. The longer you need the cables to be the less number of strands you can use.
Occilation caused by capasitance is something that you have to be carefull of in SS amps. The cables I braided for my 300B amp would destroy my Carver amp that I use for running my subs. They just have to limp along with some ancient (10 years old?) Monster zipcord.

[omer]

Thatch, have youtried solid core for that application?

[BrianB]

Hi omer,

Say, I tracked down Gene's "Top Ten Signs a Cable Vendor is Selling You Snake Oil" at the Audioholics website, and I was wondering: Given that this list indicts 90% of the cables that you (and I) carry, what's your take on it?

It seems to me that Gene is yet another Peter Aczel wanna-be. And, having read WAY too many of these down-to-earth scorn-fests by Peter, David Rich, and now Gene, I have become convinced that all of these writers must have had unhappy childhoods, and are driven by some sort of a savior complex...

Happy listening!
Brian

[omer]

The bottom line with me has always been to try it and see for myself. I guess that's why OZ now has 20 cable lines and counting..... I like to try stuff. I remember one of the guys I used to work with in retail couldn't understand why everytime we'd get a new model of video tape or cassette tape, I'd buy one and try it out at the store, and at home on my system. I did it just so I would know how it differed from less expensive/more expensive tapes. And, more often than not, a customer would ask my opnion of a tape he/she was considering, I'd ask what deck they had, and a relationship got started with knowledge-based opinions/suggestions. Guess what? A little tape sale turned into big sales because I took the time to find out about the product I was selling, and mate the proper product to the proper customer. Knowledge is power in my book, and for audio, there's no better way to gain knowledge than to experiment, and listen. reading will only get you so far (hence my mantra).

Brian, we seem to have the same views about a lot of things.

I agree there is a lot of snake oil out there. admitedley, I carry some of it because a lot of people read, and read, and read, and convince themselves that "if the press says it's good, then I'll buy it". I make the sale reluctantly, only to have the guy/gal realize that what they bought sucks, and they bring it back and trade it in for something that better suits their needs. Then they see the light, and they realize that not all dealer are created equal. ;)

The biggest scam if all is the price issue. "the more expensive product must be better".

NOT!

Yep, it seems that all of these writers must have been victimized by a high end dealer at some point. :D

One thing all of us must remember, is that regardless of what info is out there regarding ANY product, the only measurement device that matters, are the ones stuck to the side of our heads.

OUR EARS. :hdphones:

[BrianB]

Hey, omer - one of these days the two of us ought to put our heads together and compose some sort of an "Audiophile Manifesto". Writers like Peter Aczel and Gene DellaSala represent one extreme end of the audiophile continuum, and things like Stereophile's "Recommended Components" list represent the opposite end, but the truth lies somewhere in the middle...

[omer]

Yes, we should!

But, there will always be some yahoo that'll think we're full of it. ;)

I've since stopped buying Stereophile because it's nothing more than a listing of equipment they tried and liked. Whey they think this list is some sort of Bible for newbie audiophiles to follow is beyond me.......plus the $10 cover price is ridiculous! :uzi:

Case in point: the Musical Fidelity XcanV2 headphone amp is on the list, but the Rega Ear isn't. They've evaluated both. EVERYONE here in Ottawa that was at the Head-Fi meet agreed that the Rega walked all over the MF. Hmmmmmm......:scratch2:

[Thatch_Ear]

Omer,
I made my ICs with 4 strands of Vampire 25.5 OFC magnet wire (cryoed) with the heavy duty Vampire plugs for termination. The gold plate was removed in the 3 spots on the plugs where the solder joints are.
My long Litz cables are just under 9' long and I braided with 8 strands of NOS WE 26 AWG with the ends twisted and tinned with no terminators. I can't remember the brand of BPs that are on the amp (OFC with knurling) but on the speakers I again used Vampire with the interior wiring being the WE for the 12"ers and Vampire for the Heils.
Monster zip for the subs and plain jane 16 AWG zip for center and rears.
I plan on using a run of Carol 12/4 under the floor and up to a wall plate with BPs for the rears soon. I avoid the crawling around under the house as much as possible and just have the HT zip running under the oriental carpet in the living room at the present.
Secondary systems also use 16 AWG zip as the BPs on amps and speakers do not justify anything better.

[Jack G]

First, I apologize for flying off the handle in the other thread. I should know better by now.
Secondly, I always tell people to try and listen to cables for themselves. If they hear a difference, and they *like* the difference, and think its worth it, then buy it. Always try to get a return policy when you buy.
I do think prices can be a bit absurd in though.
Brian,
I just popped my Leyla back in my main system-I forgot just how good that amp was.I missed that 845 bass. Hmmm, I may put my WAVAC in my HT system for a while.
enjoy,
Jack

[Thatch_Ear]

Where did you fly off the handle? Galileo was sentenced to house arrest by the church for advocating the heliocentric theory over the geocentric theory in 1633. The church knew that the earth was the center of the universe while mathematicians since Archimedes before 200 BC knew that the sun was the center of the universe. Galileo got caught up in this because of the great uproar that was caused by Copernicus and how it differed from the views of the church.
Now we know that neither the earth or the sun is the center of the universe, not even of our galaxy. But while these things were known to be true they were absolutes.
The earth is not flat etc.
Nobody can be out of line on anything that is in the least ways subjective no matter how many objective things you have been taught. At least the way that I see it is that there are no absolutes except that absolutely everything changes.

[omer]

Bugs Bunny episode..

Round!

Flat

ROUND

FLAT

ROUND!

Look King, the world she's round like the apple

Columbo, she's flat like the panacke

Look King, she's a round like my HEAD!

BANG (hits chris on the head with hammer

She's flat like your head.


That episode always cracks me up. :lmao:

[WhiteSE]

How do external noises "mitigate" into the signal?:confused: :rolleyes: :dunno:

[Thatch_Ear]

Usually through the power supply because of dirty AC often because of RF generators like a CD player or other Dig gear, or a cable configuration that acts like an antenna.
A rheostat is about the noisiest thing you can put in an electrical circuit. Any audio gear plugged into that circuit will give you an exellent rendition of a rheostat. Have a halogen torche'? plug it into the same outlet as your amp.

[WhiteSE]

I was just wondering about the word "mitigate",,,I thought it meant "diminishing", ala "mitigating circumstances"...."mitigating factors"...etc....

[omer]

Panamax's AC Regenerartor does a faboulous job at isolating digital gear from the system, and providing pure AC.