Normal tapes vs chrome and metal

[braxus]

Ok. Im just trying to get a feel of the characteristics of tape types for cassettes. Normal tapes usually have the thickest sound of analog with great extended bass, and in some cases rolled off highs. Chrome tapes have a extended high end, but the bass can be weak compared to normal tapes. Metal tapes someone said (may) have the same bass type of normal tapes, but the high end is the best and most extended. Is this assumption correct? Lets not forget FECR type 3 tapes which were supposed to have the same bass quality of normal tapes, but extended high end with it. If that is so why did type 3 tapes die out in favor of chrome ones, especially if the bass on chrome tapes are weaker?

Ive heard comments on good premium normal tapes from TDK and Maxell. They are TDK AD, AR, and AR-X, then later DS-X. And then UD, XL-I, and XL-IS tapes. Its been mentioned the final version of the XL-IS tape is not as good as its predisessors (sp?). In Sony's camp there would be HF-S, HF-ES, and HF-Pro. Im trying to find some higher end normal tapes to buy so when I wanted a more colored tape sound, I can use those. Or when I want the better bass sound. I know in Denon's camp they have the DX series of which I don't really know much about. I see them on Ebay now and then, but can't really relate to what is good compared to the other big brands. But from what I understand the DX-3 is comparable to Maxell XL-I and TDK-AR. DX-4 is their best normal which would be the same as AR-X and XL-IS. Anyone ever use these Denon's?

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9500E1DB1738F930A35752C1A9639482 60

Interesting article from 1985 above, and 1990 below.

http://groups.google.ca/group/rec.audio/browse_thread/thread/6e65847e160b8fac/03471d228ba9f4ba?lnk=st&q=Denon+DX-4+tape&rnum=2&hl=en#03471d228ba9f4ba

Any users of premium normal tapes please respond. Also any users of Maxell XL-IS tapes please comment if you've used the older versions and also the last newest version. Im trying to find out if you've noticed the change in the tape formulation. Also can anyone list the breakdown on BASF tapes and what was available? The only normal tapes I've bought from them are the LH-EI ones and I have no idea where that stands in relation to the other brands listed above, but I assume that tape is the bottom of the barrel. The link above says they made a Ferro Super and Ferro Maxima, but I've never ever seen them for sale anyway. Even Ebay I've never seen them there. Interesting link on BASF tapes:

http://www.stereodisco.sk/kazety/basf/basf.htm

Maxells here:

http://www.stereodisco.sk/kazety/maxell/maxell.htm

TDK:

http://www.stereodisco.sk/kazety/tdk/tdk.htm

Sony:

http://www.stereodisco.sk/kazety/sony/sony.htm

And an interesting site with many tapes listed by their case style:

http://www.melofanas.lt/1left/kol/kolekcija_sarasas.htm

And tape terms here:

http://globalrecordings.net/article/232

[OvenMaster]

Normal tapes usually have the thickest sound of analog with great extended bass, and in some cases rolled off highs. Chrome tapes have a extended high end, but the bass can be weak compared to normal tapes. Metal tapes someone said (may) have the same bass type of normal tapes, but the high end is the best and most extended. Is this assumption correct?
I have used hundreds of cassettes of all three types over the past 35 years and I would have to agree with this assessment. That said, my favorite is chrome. My two centavos.
Tom

[Scorpion8]

My favorites was always Agfa FeCr, but they became scarce as soon as I stared using them. Thus, my collection is mostly TDK or Maxell Type-II stuff. As far as Denon tapes -- yea, love 'em. I bought the last two boxes of them in Juneau a few weeks back.

There are some great links in the first post, thanks!

[braxus]

It seems chrome tapes give up low end for high end. Its kind of a in between tape, which it is. Can anyone say whether metal tapes or normal tapes produce better bass?

[DENNYDOG]

Not sure if this would be a premium type I but I've used Sony's HF tapes and I really like the way they sound. Probably better than most type II's that I've used, TDK and Maxell brands. You list the S, ES and pro's but these are just HF's. I've recorded with slightly higher recording levels on these and sound VERY good with no saturation and very good s/n ratio on a Pioneer ct-f9191 and ct-f1000:thmbsp: . I believe that I picked these up at K-amapart not that long ago. I'm sure they still carry them.:yes:

[braxus]

I've used HF tapes before. I recently bought a 120 min version of the HF and had more issues with it then I'd like. Its been a while since I've used HF tapes in smaller lengths. Sony was actually the second tape I used to buy. First was Radio Shack. The Sony LNX was it, and the green version. But that tape was muted compared to newer tapes. I also have some AHF and BHF tapes. Im not sure what came first- the LNX or AHF? I saw on Ebay recently a HF-Pro tape, and I wanted to buy it, but the guy wanted $22 for it. No thanks.

[DENNYDOG]

I'm listening to Johny Cash recorded on a Sony HF 90 right now. Very nice. Pretty hard to tell the difference from the source cd. For some reason the only type II's you can find in stores around here are TKD high bias 110's. I can't figure out why they don't carry any 90 min. tapes.

[absolon]

I got good results with the Sony UX, liked it best out of about 15 or 16 different types I tried. Recently found two still-sealed Scotch Master FeCr, but haven't tried them yet.

[yohan77]

Tape, I find, is very dependent on the application as well. There is no "one size fits all" cassette tape.

The high end normal bias tapes (TDK AD, etc) cut off the high end on CD or digital sources, I don't notice this when recording from LPs, only when recording from an MP3 or CD. There is also a considerable bass extension, as you said. I've mentioned in another thread that portability is important. You can take an AD recorded with Dolby B mostly anywhere and it will sound good, no better or worse than a 128 kbps MP3 on an mp3 player. Normal bias tapes also make very good tapes for recording 78s. If it cuts out the high-end, you won't even notice! The TDK AD also works great for classic rock. Jethro Tull albums play very clearly on the AD.

However, if I'm only listening to the tapes on my high-end stereo, an SA-X is indistinguishable from the CD or other digital source except a very modest increase in bass. This is on my Tascam. In general I've also noticed these results.

Keep in mind I don't/can't tweak the bias settings, I just use the automatic setting of the deck. I know if I bought a deck where I could do that I'd never be happy and would waste time and wear out tapes trying to tweak it.

If I had to choose my two favorite tapes they would be the TDK AD and Maxell XLII-S. The Maxell doesn't add as much bass as its TDK counterpart, and I find it to be more indistinguishable than the the SA-X. The AD is the perfect balance of everything. Portability, quality, and low noise.

[braxus]

http://www.informationweek.com/blog/main/archives/2007/05/no_longer_live.html

Guy above proclaiming cassette is dead. Whatever.

[Des_Lab]

Ok so the dude in that article comes across as a little pompous.

But attitude aside, he is, by and large, correct. We've had this discussion many times. As a mainstream format, cassette IS dead. So what does that mean for us?

Nothing really. We can and will, for as long as we choose (and our tapes and decks hold out) continue to enjoy cassette tapes as a 'niche' hobby. Besides, if a lot of people read his blog, he might actually be doing us a favor by convincing many people to give up on tapes or sell their machines.

More for us.

I could not help but laugh at the whole "80's mixed tape for loved ones".

Lord knows I did that plenty of times. Only difference was that when someone made a tape for me, it was almost always on a Maxell UR, TDK D, or Memorex DBS.

At least I showed some love and always used a TDK SA or Maxell XLII or higher.

I doubt that Melissa, Jennifer, Kim, etc. cared or noticed. But it sure made ME feel better.

Besides, it's not like todays youth couldn't STILL do that. The only difference is that it would be on a CD, made with (likely) "ripped" MP3 files. But the concept is still basically the same.

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DL-Why not me?

[braxus]

To me dead means no longer in existance. I think a better word would be "niche" market. All he had to do was look on Ebay and see the insane prices good tapes go for. I know- I buy them too, but my wallet is killing me on that. I mean even 8 tracks have made a comeback, in their own little way. Im wondering if music lovers will be enough to keep cassette around long enough to have a sort of revival? I don't mean like vinyl today is making a comeback, but on a smaller scale. When people realize how good they can still sound (after many hours of ear bleeding MP3s making your ears ring), maybe then it will be around for a while longer. Its a shame for cassettes last hoorah they didn't make a dream deck like I proposed in a previous posting. People would realize then cassettes sound better then they expected, especially a 3.75 IPS. Its been said 3.75 IPS cassettes put CDs to shame. Think of what a metal tape would sound like on your reel to reel deck at high speed. You'd never want to use anything else. I cannot say how long good blanks will be around, which is why Im considering reel to reel now. At least with it the niche diehard pros will keep that alive. No one will fight for lowly cassettes.

But I refuse to ever put vinyl onto CDs. To me its the worst of both worlds doing that. Keep it in analog and enjoy the smoother sound you get.

[Des_Lab]

I personally don't see cassette (or any tape for that matter) ever again arising beyond the level that it is basically now at: NOS and used machines getting passed around from person to person via Ebay, AK, Audiogon, etc. as a niche format for old goats like us who absolutely refuse to move any further forward in technology, by which I mean: convert to MP3's. Although new cassette decks and tapes can still be bought new (albeit in ever shrinking amounts), most of those items are of very low quality that none of us propping up the hobby really want. So we have created a sort of paradox: the people most likely to use the decks and tapes will be the ones least likely to purchase the new offerings. I realize that the reason for that is the inferior quality of todays new analog hardware and tapes. You alluded to a "grand hurrah/going out" deck. I'd be curious to see what you had in mind.

Which brings me to my next point.

Even if some manufacturer were to express interest in catering to us (with new audiophile grade components, tapes, or both), what do you think the chances of it actually happning are?

Zip
Zero
Nada

Why?

What is the single most commonly heard complaint around here?

That's right. That all of the good stuff is too expensive. As much as we love to belittle Ipod's and their ilk and brag about how much "purer" and "real" analog sounds, we as a group are notoriously cheap when it comes to any sort of willingness to feed our hobby and back up our claims.

Just think of the massive capital outlay that would be required to begin the [re]manufacture of audiophile grade tapes/decks: the permits, the tooling, the raw materials, the staff, the actual factory, and the actual items.

You are looking at millions upon millions of dollars before producing a single commercially available deck or tape.

Who in their right mind is going to go through all of that effort and try and get and spend all of that seed money when their core market bitches and whines constantly about having to pay an extra $5 or $10 for a metal tape that is NO LONGER IN PRODUCTION? Or is still attempting to record CD's on a 1965 Ampex deck that is already on its 6th set of heads? Or brags about dumpster diving and thrift shop finds? Some people on this board (and we all know who they are) are so full of themselves and stingy and just out of touch with reality that they think they are doing someone a favor by taking a deck off someones hands. For free.

How many units of each would need to be sold and at what price to make it worthwhile and perhaps even profitable, and over what kind of length of time?

No self respecting company in the world is going to hang its financial ass on the line like that.

This my friend is why it's over. Whatever you have or can find, that's it. If you see something you like new or used, snatch it up. You might not get that opportunity again. Because for the reasons stated above, the chances of any sort of renaissance or restart of items we would find acceptable are a solid and bombproof ZERO percent.

You guys have to come out of denial and face cold hard facts here: the days of driving down to your local Circuit City and going home with a brand new in the box 3-head audiophile tape deck for $350 and 5 cartons of $3.50 apiece C-90 metal tape are OVER. Forever. In line with above and the fact that the market numbers simply aren't there any more, for new decks and tapes to be produced [profitably], you are looking at decks that would need to sell for $1000 and up and tapes $30 and up.
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DL-Casey Jones

[braxus]

You alluded to a "grand hurrah/going out" deck. I'd be curious to see what you had in mind.


Well it was at this post:

http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=106298

Even if some manufacturer were to express interest in catering to us (with new audiophile grade components, tapes, or both), what do you think the chances of it actually happning are?

Zip
Zero
Nada


I agree it will probably never happen. History has shown that most products never come back in numbers. But tube components are still around. Vinly still is. So I was being hopefull it could revive slightly from its stance which they say is coming soon- dead.

What is the single most commonly heard complaint around here?

That's right. That all of the good stuff is too expensive. As much as we love to belittle Ipod's and their ilk and brag about how much "purer" and "real" analog sounds, we as a group are notoriously cheap when it comes to any sort of willingness to feed our hobby and back up our claims.

I agree. I'm probably in that group. My problem is I WANT to buy the expensive stuff, I just don't have the funds to do it. Im only spending money right now when I shouldn't be because I know the product will probably not be here tomorrow. I take it like an investment. If I don't use the tapes or decks, I sell them tomorrow at a profit when the market has nothing left to sell. But my plan is to use for tomorrow what I got today.

This my friend is why it's over. Whatever you have or can find, that's it. If you see something you like new or used, snatch it up. You might not get that opportunity again. Because for the reasons stated above, the chances of any sort of renaissance or restart of items we would find acceptable are a solid and bombproof ZERO percent.

I guess growing pains hurt. I would gladly switch to DSD recording if they would only allow us to make our own SACDs. But they don't. That to me leaves tape to do the job. As mentioned I've been buying what I can, even though honestly I dont have the money for it.

You guys have to come out of denial and face cold hard facts here: the days of driving down to your local Circuit City and going home with a brand new in the box 3-head audiophile tape deck for $350 and 5 cartons of $3.50 apiece C-90 metal tape are OVER. Forever. In line with above and the fact that the market numbers simply aren't there any more, for new decks and tapes to be produced [profitably], you are looking at decks that would need to sell for $1000 and up and tapes $30 and up.

Im aware of that. No one likes change. I just hate a market that FORCES you to upgrade just because THEY think its better then what we had before. Can anyone honestly say MP3s are better then cassettes in terms of sound quality? They are more convenient, but thats it. Most people are too easy to buy into the hype of new products the sellers pawn off on us. Most people have never heard what really good sound is like. Many people don't care. As for buying a new tape deck- I'd get one in a heart beat and pay $2000 for it (assuming I had that to spend) if I could get a BRAND NEW deck that is easily as good or better then the two good decks I have now. Problem with the market is they always kill the best made products first, and we end up being left with the worst. Its no wonder people run.

[Des_Lab]

There ya go. You just summed up the demise of the format.

Now don't get me wrong, I enjoy tapes (both reel and cassette) a lot. If I didn't, I wouldn't be here. I wouldn't have gone to the AK meet. I wouldn't have the system and stash that I do.

But I am also practical and realistic and view the world with both eyes wide open. And I don't always like what I see. But not liking it or not agreeing with it doens't mean it isn't still there. That's probably the key fundamental point for all to understand.

I see you are planning to take the plunge with reel to reel. You will definitely need to keep us posted on that. If there is anything I can help you with, don't be afraid to ask.

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DL-In the beginning, etc.

[braxus]

Thanks Mathew,
By the time I get a reel to reel deck it might be a year or more. I have a few things to take care of here for next year. Im just doing research for now and planning ahead. I just loved using those decks in college and they were THE format to use to do sound recordings. They'd laugh if I said I would use cassette. But I still wonder if using reel to reel will be enough of a jump for me to stop using cassettes on a high end Aiwa with Dolby S and metal tapes. I might not notice a difference. But I would suspect the sound quality without Dolby might be the difference. Even though I've read specs on SNR with reel to reel and its not much above cassettes in db.

For fun here is a pic of my best 2 decks- the Aiwa XK-S9000 and the Sony TC-K909ES. The Aiwa needs servicing before I can use it (new belts and alignment), so its waiting on the shelf till then. I have the manual and cassettes with the deck in the pic waiting to be sent out. Problem is I'm spending so much on blank tapes and other, I can't afford to get this deck serviced right now. I already bought belts for it. I just hope the head part is still around when that servicing comes, should it need its heads replaced. As for the Sony- I still use it now till I can get the Aiwa running. I have new belts for my Sony too. I bought this deck new in 1994. I should have cleaned it before I took this shot though, as the fingerprints are crazy. Ive run out of room for some of my components, hence stacking my turntable on top of my 1 deck. I plan to remedy that next year. I also have the original wood panels for both decks. I just for now had to take them off to fit into my old rack stand.

[braxus]

Anyone ever buy those old Triad TX type 1 tape or BASF Ferro Super and Ferro Maxima? I have not seen these tapes before. What I can't understand is the link on my first post in this thread gave TDK D a 4, while it gave AD a 1. Yet most people would agree that TDK AD is a better sounding tape. The AR and AR-X tapes seem well regarded. For chrome they gave Triad EM-X tape the best rating of them all. I don't ever recall Triad tapes being better then TDK or Maxell. I bought their Metal tape formulation (Triad is the same tape as THAT'S) and it did nothing but clog up the heads and tape path during use. I had to clean everything even after playing one song, as the high end would drop out. Severe tape shed problem. Its the only Metal tape I have that's ever done that. I since then never bought them again. I am curious to try their EM-X tape, but since its a chrome-metal hybrid, I'd be worried about shed with it too.

[braxus]

Interesting how on Ebay prices of even good normal tapes are getting past $10 a tape.