:thmbsp: http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=113336&highlight=sonus

I hope to be in the SF brotherhood some day ;)

I convinced my wife to listen to some Cremonas (full range) this summer..

If anyone ever comes across the Sonus Faber Extrema from the early 90's of which there were only 1000 pairs made, if you are not going to grab them, let me know. :yes: What a fantastic speaker that was. :thmbsp:
http://www.hifimusic.co.kr/webzine/image/visit/lkj/b01.gif

I convinced my wife to listen to some Cremonas (full range) this summer..
Jim, having listened to both extensively, I can tell you the Cremona Auditors with an REL sub would be an even better approach. With the price difference between the two it is doable. The sub placement in the corner will ease the placement issues and bass response will be even better. The Cremona A's are very similarly voiced to the full range Cremona's and the REL sub will take you even deeper into the bass territory minus all the headaches of proper bass response positioning in the room. Audition for yourself and keep this advice in mind when it comes time. :thmbsp:

Jim, having listened to both extensively, I can tell you the Cremona Auditors with an REL sub would be an even better approach. With the price difference betweent the two it is doable. The sub placement in the corner will ease the placement issues and bass response will be even better. The Cremona A's are very similary voiced to the full range Cremona's and the REL sub will take you even deeper into the bass territory minus all the headaches of proper bass response positioning in the room. Audition for yourself and keep this advice in mind when it comes time. :thmbsp:
The SF dealer also holds REL so this should be easy to try. Which REL model should I try? Does it need to be inserted between the preamp and the amp to high-pass filter what goes to the Auditors? And is it worth bring my mac amp or listening with Ayre/Krell will be good enough to know if it is worth upgrading my 703's?

Thanks!

With REL they recommend the sub sees the same signal your amp is sending to the speakers. Sumiko people told me and from my own experience, that the REL should be crossed over right at the lower end of bass capabilities of the speaker, especially the Sonus Faber Cremona/Cremona A's as they have really clean bass signature and don't bloat trying to reach the bottom. I would suggest the Britannia B2 or better yet, the Stentor III if you can swing it. I've heard both, very musical subs and integrate perfectly for music. For home theater, there are plenty of choices in subs out there, for music, the REL is the "one and only" I personally would use in this price range. You can check them out on www.Sumikoaudio.net and download reviews and manuals.

And is it worth bring my mac amp or listening with Ayre/Krell will be good enough to know if it is worth upgrading my 703's?
Don't bother unless you are really motivated to do this. If you like the Sonus Faber with Krell and Ayre you will love them with McIntosh. The Sonus Faber will close the gap between the autoformer and non-autoformer amps in terms of liquidity, smoothness and sweetness. I would also audition the Domus line with your non-autoformer MA6300 in mind to see if you like a sweeter or a more neutral presentation.

Don't bother unless you are really motivated to do this. If you like the Sonus Faber with Krell and Ayre you will love them with McIntosh. The Sonus Faber will close the gap between the autoformer and non-autoformer amps in terms of liquidity, smoothness and sweetness. I would also audition the Domus line with your non-autoformer MA6300 in mind to see if you like a sweeter or a more neutral presentation.
I like the sound of my 703's with my MA6500, but I would love to have a bit more bass, and a bit more sweetness without loosing any detail. The MA6500 sounds pretty sweet to me even though it doesn't have autoformers (I don't know about the MA6300). It may sound like a contradiction to want at least as much detail but with more sweetness on vocals/jazz, but the MCD201 did just that in my system, so I hope as much from different (and more expensive) speakers.

I agree that with a sub, the bass wouldn't be a problem. It is just a leap of faith for me because I never heard a great natural bookshelf+sub hifi setup. The way you put it, I will get better results that way, and in theory it should sound great.

But if I don't get the sub right away, will I be missing tons of bass (compared to 703's) with the Cremona A's alone?

Thanks again!

I like the sound of my 703's with my MA6500, but I would love to have a bit more bass, and a bit more sweetness without loosing any detail. The MA6500 sounds pretty sweet to me even though it doesn't have autoformers (I don't know about the MA6300). It may sound like a contradiction to want at least as much detail but with more sweetness on vocals/jazz, but the MCD201 did just that in my system, so I hope as much from different (and more expensive) speakers.
The Cremona A's are crisply articulated but not bright or aggressive. The silk dome tweeter is very well behaved. You will not loose any detail. The imaging and soundstage has to be heard to be believed. The midrange is very seductive with it's naturalness and compliments the gorgeous midrange of the 501s. Overall the Cremona A's are speaker with effortless presentation, openness, airyness and sweetness all in one. The bass is very well behaved like I mentioned before. They can play very loud by the way without sounding congested. The cabinet has to be one of the best designed cabinets out there, no vibration or coloration that I can detect at all. Add a sub and you have world class speakers.

Yes the new Elipsa do raise the bar in terms of midrange purity and even more extended highs that are still completely smooth and fatigue free. I can also see some people still liking the Cremona line better depending on the rest of the gear in the system. McIntosh and the new Krell Evolution gear would be a great combo with them. The Elipsa are substantially more expensive at $20k vs. $5k and you are getting only a marginal upgrade in sound with the Elipsa vs. Cremona. Those differences may be very well worth it to some with no budget constraints but others...

But if I don't get the sub right away, will I be missing tons of bass (compared to 703's) with the Cremona A's alone?
Well, I have a 14x17 room and still don't have a sub with my Cremona A's. It's in the works but not a priority. Not so much for the musical content but the "feeling" of the room or the acoustic space that I experienced when listening to the Elipsa and Cremonas with REL Stentor III. Takes the "being there" feeling to a different level. :yes:

Wow! The B2 review says "96% of the Stentor low bass with better upper and middle bass registers at about 30% less money" - I guess it's a match for a floorstander.. ;)

Wow! The B2 review says "96% of the Stentor low bass with better upper and middle bass registers at about 30% less money" - I guess it's a match for a floorstander.. Yes, the Stentor is one of those really serious subs that should be used real low. The B2 is more of a "everyday" type of a sub. I don't think the Stentor would be out of place in the mid 30Hz though. Most people use their other brand subs real high. The Cremona A's take me to upper 30's rather flat acording to my SPL meter. Kind of amazing when you think about it. The SF Extrema from the early 90's was also a big monitor, (pictured above) guess what the bottom end was on it? 27Hz!!! Shocking but true. That's what good design is all about.

The music seems everywhere with these. Euphoric. I just close my eyes.

I can't wait till I get my Pre and Tuner back form Terry. Oh and my new SACD player!

The music seems everywhere with these. Euphoric. I just close my eyes.

And there he is, the new Sonus Faber brother. :thmbsp:

Yes, the Stentor is one of those really serious subs that should be used real low. The B2 is more of a "everyday" type of a sub. I don't think the Stentor would be out of place in the mid 30Hz though. Most people use their other brand subs real high. The Cremona A's take me to upper 30's rather flat acording to my SPL meter. Kind of amazing when you think about it. The SF Extrema from the early 90's was also a big monitor, (pictured above) guess what the bottom end was on it? 27Hz!!! Shocking but true. That's what good design is all about.
Yes! There is really something special about SF, because in one of the reviews, the guy tried a Sappire XL with the REL B2 and he didn't like it that much, but he seamed to be saying that the Sapphire only went to 70Hz. However, if you look at the speaker website, they are happy to say that they use the same kind of drivers that you can find in more expensive speakers (like the same brand as in the Cremona's). So I guess that design does have something to do with it all! Not just the drivers or the size..

I will definitely take an appointment (in July) to have the dealer prepare a B2/Auditor setup and a Cremona full-range (without sub) setup. I'm just afraid that the best setup will be the full-range Cremona with a sub :D

None of the drivers for Sonus Faber are off the shelf units. They are all custom made by different manufacturers acording to SF specs and design parameters. The new Elipsa tweeter went through over 150 iterations before they settled on it. The factory (Scan-speak) still holds the process of making this particular tweeter a secret. :yes:


I will definitely take an appointment (in July) to have the dealer prepare a B2/Auditor setup and a Cremona full-range (without sub) setup. I'm just afraid that the best setup will be the full-range Cremona with a sub These are good problems to have. :D Just don't listen to the Elipsa or you will be thinking of ways of coming up with even more cash and whatever you do, don't listen to the Stradivari at all, you will be selling your soul to the man with horns, pitchfork and a tail to get them. :smoke:

By the way, Sam Tellig mentioned "you may not necessarily like the full range Cremona any better than the Cremona Auditor" in his review in Stereophile. He didn't use a sub either.

None of the drivers for Sonus Faber are off the shelf units. They are all custom made by different manufacturers acording to SF specs and design parameters. The new Elipsa tweeter went through over 150 iterations before they settled on it. The factory (Scan-speak) still holds the process of making this particular tweeter a secret. :yes:


These are good problems to have. :D Just don't listen to the Elipsa or you will be thinking of ways of coming up with even more cash and whatever you do, don't listen to the Stradivari at all, you will be selling your soul to the man with horns, pitchfork and a tail to get them. :smoke:
Too late, I've already heard the Elipsa, that is why I aquired an interest for SF. The idea is to wait a few weeks before listening to the Cremona to avoid comparing them ;)

These are good problems to have. :D Just don't listen to the Elipsa or you will be thinking of ways of coming up with even more cash and whatever you do, don't listen to the Stradivari at all, you will be selling your soul to the man with horns, pitchfork and a tail to get them. :smoke:

Yes, but for ~$40K you get not only great sounding speakers but 2 works of art too! :rockon:

I like their new distressed black wood look on the Homage series. If I were in the market for a high-end speaker, I'd definitely be taking a look.

Don't discount the Guarneris! I initially intended to check out the full range Cremonas but the shop unfortunately had a pair of Guaneris as well. Both my wife and I knew the audition was over when he switched to the Guarneris. I really can't think of any speaker I would choose over this pair. :music:

Not too imposing, beautiful to look at, extremely sweet top end and mid-range, more than enough base for my tastes (and my room is 23 feet by 14 feet opening out into another 23 feet by about 20 feet). Never have I thought there was not enough base.

The Guarneris are now about 4 feet from the back wall and 2 feet from the side walls. I switched them over from one end of the room to the other recently due to the arrival of a piano allowing me to stretch the distance between them from corner to corner (not tweeter to tweeter) to 9 1/2 feet, toed in so they cross just behind the sweet spot. Man are they singing now! :banana:

Funny, they say that the drivers on the Homage line are pre-broken in but in the last week the Guarneris have literally taken off! I can not stop grinning :D

The Guarneris are now about 4 feet from the back wall and 2 feet from the side walls. I switched them over from one end of the room to the other recently due to the arrival of a piano allowing me to stretch the distance between them from corner to corner (not tweeter to tweeter) to 9 1/2 feet, toed in so they cross just behind the sweet spot. Man are they singing now!Perfect! I have mine setup almost the same. A little closer to the front wall for a touch more bass reinforcement that is flatter in measurements. This is really room dependent.

Funny, they say that the drivers on the Homage line are pre-broken in but in the last week the Guarneris have literally taken off! I can not stop grinningI've noticed that the bass/mid drivers have broken in a long time ago, the tweeters did get sweeter much later. I would say well past the 300-400 hour mark.

How does the Cremona A. sound with something like the MA2275? Or do they prefer ss power?

JWW19

How does the Cremona A. sound with something like the MA2275? Or do they prefer ss power?
They sound as good with tubes as they do with SS. I have both. The Cremona A's must be a rather easy load for the 275 because it sounds effortless with them. The Proac 1sc for some reason just didn't sound quite as effortless neither do the Onix speakers my son now has with the 275.

Very interesting thread.Thank you.

Very interesting thread.Thank you.Audition the Sonus Fabers and you will say, "yeah, this is the speaker I can live with for the next 10-15 years". :yes:

If anyone ever comes across the Sonus Faber Extrema from the early 90's of which there were only 1000 pairs made, if you are not going to grab them, let me know. :yes: What a fantastic speaker that was. :thmbsp:
http://www.hifimusic.co.kr/webzine/image/visit/lkj/b01.gif
I'd take a pair of those any day.

If anyone ever comes across the Sonus Faber Extrema from the early 90's of which there were only 1000 pairs made, if you are not going to grab them, let me know. :yes: What a fantastic speaker that was. :thmbsp:
http://www.hifimusic.co.kr/webzine/image/visit/lkj/b01.gif

I think Jerry used to have a pair!

I think Jerry used to have a pair!If he did, he should have held on to them. They still command a high price after all these years. I don't know of too many speakers that hold their value so well.

I think Jerry used to have a pair!

They now sell for S$7k to S$8k (about US$5k) per pair including stands, MINT! :yes:

Maybe I should run down and buy back one pair, ..... come to think of it! Hmmmm, .... but they do need gobs of power to drive! MC1201 should suffice.:D

They now sell for S$7k to S$8k (about US$5k) I've seen them snapped up for higher prices than that. :yes:

Just to further confuse the issue; there is a new Cremona M:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?cspkr&1179827566&read&keyw&zzcremona+m
My main speakers are Dali MS5's but in the great room we listen to our SF Grand Piano's all day long when were home...there not going anywhere soon!

I emailed Bill Peugh of Sumiko about the Cremona M. We'll see what he can tell us about them. :yes:

More options.. :scratch2:

Cremona M = Elipsa/Hommage technologies trickled down => paper/wood midrange, stradivari-like bass drivers, etc.

And it looks like the price will remain in the same range...

Scroll down a few pages for big pics...
http://avcat.jp/avnews/2007/20071.html

And some info (throw it in altavista translate if you need to)
http://www.afdigitale.it/FORUM/Topic109889-19-1.aspx

The Proac 1sc for some reason just didn't sound quite as effortless neither do the Onix speakers my son now has with the 275.

Quite a gift for a son!

Yes, looks like the same midrange driver as in the Elipsa, quasi-dipole setup with the port behind it. The tweeter looks like it may be the same as the Elipsa as well. If that's the case, this is going to be one hell of a speaker at a more reasonable price. :thmbsp: Thanks for the links Jim. This certainly changes my own thoughts on upgrades. Now I will have to listen to them before stepping up to the Elipsa. :yes:

http://avcat.jp/avnews/2007/sonuscm2.JPGhttp://avcat.jp/avnews/2007/sonuscm4.JPG

Quite a gift for a son!
Yes, he now has my 275 and my MCD201. Wish my Dad gave me presents like that when I was his age. We all do what we can though and if it wasn't for them, I wouldn't be where I am today either.

Serge, Concerning the new Cremona M, I'm counting on you to illuminate us as to the sound signature of the update and answer the question concerning the current direction of Sonus Faber...i.e. are they planning to retain their traditional "romantic" presentation or are they (as some have expressed ) heading towards a more neutral sound with each new edition? Does this have anything to do with Franco's pullback as principle designer (or is that just a rumour)?
A big job, for sure, but I don't know anyone more qualified! :dunno:

Serge, Concerning the new Cremona M, I'm counting on you to illuminate us as to the sound signature of the update and answer the question concerning the current direction of Sonus Faber...i.e. are they planning to retain their traditional "romantic" presentation or are they (as some have expressed ) heading towards a more neutral sound with each new edition? Does this have anything to do with Franco's pullback as principle designer (or is that just a rumour)?
A big job, for sure, but I don't know anyone more qualified! :dunno:
I heard the Elipsa and it sounds romantic AND neutral to my ears. IMO that is how real live (acoustic) music is.

The Elipsa does *not* sound like it exagerates detail (like my opinion of an Avalon).

Thanks Jim, looks like I'll be updating the SF Grand Piano's before this is over!

Serge, Concerning the new Cremona M, I'm counting on you to illuminate us as to the sound signature of the update and answer the question concerning the current direction of Sonus Faber...i.e. are they planning to retain their traditional "romantic" presentation or are they (as some have expressed ) heading towards a more neutral sound with each new edition? Does this have anything to do with Franco's pullback as principle designer (or is that just a rumour)?
A big job, for sure, but I don't know anyone more qualified! Yes, Franco Serblin is now retired. The current and future SF will be products of a new R&D team lead by Paolo Tezzon. Judging by the Elipsa, they are heading in the right direction. :yes: :thmbsp:

I need to listen some more before I jump to too many conclusions but from what I've heard so far, the midrange was probably the purest I have heard and the highs were just out of this world, the Elipsa sounded more neutral and extended but not fatiguing or too hi-fi sounding. Just Perfect!

I am not worried about the new found level of neutrality and extension, the McIntosh gear would be well matched partners for the "new" Sonus Faber. :music: I actually liked it even a touch more than my current synergy with Cremona A's and that was with Krell driving the Elipsa.

PHC1, I agree, and I can't wait to listen to the new Cremona...

I think that the Elipsa's "romantic" sound is also because of the way the bass sounds - very envelopping, like the warmth of a fireplace in our cold canadian winter... ;)

This is very reassuring Serge and Jim; "purest midrange, highs out of this world and enveloping bass".... please stop it, your killing me! I'd certainly consider an Elipsa as a replacement for the Dali MS5's, but I'm really surprised how well the Dali's work with the 100 tube watts the MC2102 puts out. And of course there's the funding as always!

Anyone tried the "Cremona Active Subwoofer" with one of the Cremona's?

"Aesthetically complementary and sonically compatible with Cremona, Auditor and Center for use in reference music or film sound systems."

http://www.sumikoaudio.net/sonus/prod_cremonasubwoofer.htm

Anyone tried the "Cremona Active Subwoofer" with one of the Cremona's?
I don't personally like the "active" and "passive" radiators approach but I have not listened to the SF sub.

I don't personally like the "active" and "passive" radiators approach but I have not listened to the SF sub.
That was bugging me too. Passive must mean that they are out of phase with the active driver... but who knows, maybe it's better than a simple port!

Cremona M = Elipsa/Hommage technologies trickled down => paper/wood midrange, stradivari-like bass drivers, etc.

And it looks like the price will remain in the same range...

Scroll down a few pages for big pics...
http://avcat.jp/avnews/2007/20071.html

And some info (throw it in altavista translate if you need to)
http://www.afdigitale.it/FORUM/Topic109889-19-1.aspx

Thanks for the links here Jim777, I had no idea Steinway made speakers, man they are as gorgeous as the elipsas ! as expensive as their pianos though :sigh:

That was bugging me too. Passive must mean that they are out of phase with the active driver... but who knows, maybe it's better than a simple port!No, actually it's a driver without an electrical connection to the amp. They tend to be boomy, but they can be done well.

No, actually it's a driver without an electrical connection to the amp. They tend to be boomy, but they can be done well.Hmm, with passive drivers, as the active driver pushes out, the passive gets sucked in and visa-versa, so they are out of phase. :scratch2:

Hmm, with passive drivers, as the active driver pushes out, the passive gets sucked in and visa-versa, so they are out of phase. :scratch2:I didn't think that's what it meant, though. I thought that was more of a side-effect (I.E., it's not purposefully that way, that's just the way it turns out).

And if it's on the opposite side of the box, doesn't that make it in phase? It's only when it's on the same side of the box that it's out-of-phase.

I have no idea what putting them on the side of the box, as Sonus Faber does, does, though. I know that at least one design (that I'm aware of) puts it on the opposing side to effectively accentuate the bass. Any idea what putting it on the side does? :headscrat