Vellum for Marantz Receivers

[EchoWars]

Working on a 2275 for one of our members, and in the process of going through it, I noticed what looked like one of the backlights for the tuner display was out. After removing the blue plastic numerals, I saw that all the lamps were fine, but Marantz uses a strip of Vellum to soften and disperse the light from the lamps.

The pic below shows the torn and badly yellowed piece removed from the display, and also the piece I cut and tacked on with tiny dabs of silicone seal.

Can't buy just one sheet of Vellum, so if anyone has their Marantz apart and would like to chuck that old nasty piece, let me know and I can fix you up. I'll never use 50 sheets in a 100 years.

[schlosman]

EchoWars

Thanks again for leaving no stone unturned on my Marantz. I can't wait to get this back! Took your advise on the power supply issue too, but went a little different direction - got what I think was a pretty good deal on a special from BUY.com on a couple MONSTER CABLE PowerCenter PC1000's.....

John

[EchoWars]

I thought I might bump this up...many perhaps missed this, or maybe a new member never saw it.

Restoring a Marantz 4400 at the moment, and replacing the vellum. Still got a lot left...

[jpciii]

Pardon my ignorance, but what is Vellum and what is it used for? (other than light dissipation in vintage Marantz recievers)

thanks

[Andyman]

It's a type of paper and available at any office store.

[EchoWars]

Originally posted by Andyman
It's a type of paper and available at any office store. $8 or $9 for a pad of it that will last for 150 years of my doing this stuff...which I why I make the offer to AK'ers to help use a bit of what I have......what is it used for? (other than light dissipation in vintage Marantz recievers)Not sure...it's just a fancy paper. I think draftsmen use(ed) it, and...well...OK, I'm stumped.:dunno:

[heathkit tv]

(Homer Simpson voice)

"Mmmmm, vellum.............."

Am interested in a sheet or two (whatever it takes to redo my 2325)

Anthony

[Yamaha B-2]

You are mostly correct about vellum. Was used by draftsfolks and all sorts of architect flunkies to draw and trace on. Lay it over the original and pencil in changes for review and discussion without mucking up the expensive originals. Use a light-box for the thick stuff and thin stuff in the field. And could copy vellums back in the day before most anything could be copied. Always used to state in my contracts that we would receive a clean vellum copy with the blueprints. But that was in a previous technological era (the one in which most of our favorite equipment was built). With the advent of CAD vellum has really taken a back seat. Now just ask for two hard-copies of the blueprints and a CD with the drawing set. Sooooo much easier. But, doesn't sound any better.

[luvvinvinyl]

Vellum, originally, was made from the finest calfskin. The earliest books were written on vellum, (think monasteries) before paper-making was prevalent. The finish was slightly napped, like fine suede, and lasts for centuries. Now the term is used for papers of varying transluscence, somewhat firm, and less flexible than onionskin, as described above.

If that wasn't already more than you wanted to know about vellum, check out the link:

http://www.johnnealbooks.com/jnb/articles/vellum.html

Calligraphers LOVE that stuff, if they only get over the anxiety of using a $35/sq.ft. writing material!

Ernie

[2DualsNotEnough]

My wife always teases me about AK as "nerd central".Wait till I show her the amazing Vellum thread!!!Woooooohoooooooooo....
Jimmy:banana:

[heathkit tv]

The 1973 Cadillac brochure had vellum end papers (the first page immediately inside both covers). What a class act!

Anthony

[mhardy6647]

When I was grad school, we actually drafted figures for publication the old-fashioned way, on vellum with Kroy lettering sets. Then we got a Houston Instruments flatbed plotter, and I wrote s/w to draw X-Y graphs for publication (I understood the computers back then).

Nice stuff.

BTW, I thought the thread was looking for Valium for Marantz receivers! ;-)

[heathkit tv]

With Marantz' mellow sound why would they need valium? You big silly!

Anthony

[shurev15]

Maybe one will post an exact instruction to change the vellum. Please fill in the missing parts or correct . please say, if You have had troubles and why.

Remove knobs carefully, protect frontplate and knobs by a soft tissue or
plastic underlayer
Remove frontplate
Remove the dial by unscrew at the meters and solving the glued dialplate carefully (by knife or What is the best way???)
Control and change defect lamps, it is easy by this way
Put off the old vellum (sheet of mylar, special paper???)
Fix the new one ( by what??? glue, tape or anything else?)
Fix the dial (screws and??? glue, tape or??)
Fix the frontplate and knobs

It would be nice, if the lamp sets contains a piece of vellum.

Herbert

[darko]

Hi There,

I was many Time in this Question, how the Colour become a green add -
the Scale is in offset Print CYAN.

Its the old, YELLOW Vellum Paper, that gives the Dialscale a Turkis touch.

I try several different Materials. Iam profesional in the Graphics Industries,
as FSE. We have a lot of Solutions for Backlight Graphical Solutions.

The Best Material was Baking-Paper. Its thermical noc Problem.
It is made to taken up to 300°C...

This Paper is on Roll, or Sheet. I cut the different Sizes for different Marantz Receivers with a sharp Knife. To fix the Vellum on the right Position,
I use 3M double Scotch Ruban Adhesiv - Pressure Sensitive Tape.

The Color is then a very beautyfull, dark Cyan.

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/3729/marantz2275vf5.th.jpg (http://img205.imageshack.us/my.php?image=marantz2275vf5.jpg)


Darko
:music:

[dgwojo]

Hi There,

I was many Time in this Question, how the Colour become a green add -
the Scale is in offset Print CYAN.

Its the old, YELLOW Vellum Paper, that gives the Dialscale a Turkis touch.

I try several different Materials. Iam profesional in the Graphics Industries,
as FSE. We have a lot of Solutions for Backlight Graphical Solutions.

The Best Material was Baking-Paper. Its thermical noc Problem.
It is made to taken up to 300°C...

This Paper is on Roll, or Sheet. I cut the different Sizes for different Marantz Receivers with a sharp Knife. To fix the Vellum on the right Position,
I use 3M double Scotch Ruban Adhesiv - Pressure Sensitive Tape.

The Color is then a very beautyfull, dark Cyan.

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/3729/marantz2275vf5.th.jpg (http://img205.imageshack.us/my.php?image=marantz2275vf5.jpg)


Darko
:music:
Darko,
Nice image, what fuse lamps were used in that unit?? I.E. 8v/200ma or 8v/250ma? :scratch2:

[dotnetpete]

Greetings,
I've been reading about vellum, and have a few questions:

*Where* exactly is the vellum located? Is it attached to or does it ring the dial plate, or is it in the lamp housing? It's necessary to take off the dial plate, right?

Also, does anyone here have any extra left over? I have a 2270 and a 2245 that could probably use new.

Thanks.

[onepixel]

Hey dotnetpete,

You'll find the vellum, glued top and bottom around the meter housing. It's somewhat tricky getting to it. Pull the old paper off and use it to trace and cut a new piece. I used a sticky adhesive that's not permanent (dabbed spray mount). You'll have to cut one side of the vellum to fit around the wires and wriggle it in.

Cheers

[EchoWars]

Pic was lost in the server change, but the vellum I speak of is behind the tuner display.

[whsh93a]

Maybe one will post an exact instruction to change the vellum. Please fill in the missing parts or correct . please say, if You have had troubles and why.

Remove knobs carefully, protect frontplate and knobs by a soft tissue or
plastic underlayer

>Use a 3x5 card. Slide it under the knob. Pull straight back or use a bladed screwdriver to gently pry the knob off.

Remove frontplate
Remove the dial by unscrew at the meters and solving the glued dialplate carefully (by knife or What is the best way???)

>This can be tricky. It's held on by old double-sided tape. The trickiest part is where the plastic is at its' least width just above the meters. Start at the far end and work towards the meters. Try to free the bottom first once you get to the meters. Then, lean the plastic out from the bottom.

Control and change defect lamps, it is easy by this way

>You'll need to remove the vellum first.

Put off the old vellum (sheet of mylar, special paper???)

>The vellum will tear off in pieces. That's no big deal. Somtimes Marantz added vellum behind the meters. That should be taken out, too. The meter bodies are tinted blue and it is not needed. You will need to reach inside to the back of the meters with a pair of thin needle-nose pliers (probably). Just tear it out.

Fix the new one ( by what??? glue, tape or anything else?)

>If you were lucky enough to get the dial vellum off relatively intact, just trace around it and cut the new to size.

Fix the dial (screws and??? glue, tape or??)

> Go to a shoe store or maybe a drug store and buy "Barge" cement. Put the vellum behind the plastic and then attach the plastic with the two meter screws. Chances are, the meter bodies will not be flush to the back and you will need to push them forward to meet the screws. DON'T overtighten. Snug is fine. Finally, use a toothpick or similar flat item and put a little cement along the top of the plastic - especially where it is not flush to the back surface or where the pointer may rub when moving. No need for a lot of cement. Just a few dabs will do, mostly towards the far end from the meters. Use the handle of a small pair of pliers and just lean the pliers handle against the top surface of the dial plastic and the front metal. Gravity will hold it there. Walk away and let it dry.

Fix the frontplate and knobs

It would be nice, if the lamp sets contains a piece of vellum.

>I will shortly be offering a complete kit for refurbishing Marantz - including instructions, lamps, relay, vellum, insulators, etc. etc.

DH

[dotnetpete]

Thanks folks.

That's enough to get me going and it should be more clear when I get in there...(a 2245). I had the dial/tuner plate out recently in the 2226 I was working on, and that didn't appear to have vellum behind that plate. There was some black paper (about the consistency of construction paper) around the meters on the left, and I take it that was to prevent light leakage from the sides of the meters. The actual clear blue numbers on the dial plate were still a dark, rich blue. So maybe this model is just different in that regard.

As to the vellum, if I get some from a store, is there a particular minimum or recommended thickness to use? Also, in a related thread someone mentioned baker's or oven paper....anyone else have good results with this?, and I take it if that paper was to be used, it should be white, right?

Thanks for all your insights.

Add on edit:
I see that Staples for example offers vellum, and the description of one choice is:

"Staedtler® 25% Vellum Tracing Paper, 8 1/2" x 11"
25% rag vellum, 16-lb. solvent free stock
Smooth white translucent surface
No ghosting, smudging or cracking from repeated erasing"

and there is also a variety that is "100% rag". Does this rag differential make a difference in terms of using it in the receiver? Is 16-lb paper sufficient?

Sorry for all the detailed questions, but if I get in there I want to do it right the first time and get good results. Thanks.

[fiddlefye]

Instead of vellum might I suggest frosted mylar? You can get it by the sheet from any decent art store for next to nothing. I used it in my 4300 and it works perfectly, you'll never tell it from vellum when you look at the lit dial. An additional advantage is that it won't age and yellow like vellum does, is much stronger and less delicate to work with as well. If anything it looks better than the vellum as the texture is slightly smoother.

[dotnetpete]

Instead of vellum might I suggest frosted mylar? You can get it by the sheet from any decent art store for next to nothing. I used it in my 4300 and it works perfectly, you'll never tell it from vellum when you look at the lit dial. An additional advantage is that it won't age and yellow like vellum does, is much stronger and less delicate to work with as well. If anything it looks better than the vellum as the texture is slightly smoother.

Interesting, fiddlefye.
Since I don't think I've seen this stuff, a couple questions:
What thickness, or is all pretty much the same?

What color, or is all the same?

Are there different finishes on the two sides, and if so, which side in?

Any downside experienced? What about shrinking over time due to the heat inside the case?

[skibjr]

I just "re-vellumed" a 4300 that came to me with a dim, sickly green tuning and meter display. Take a look at the difference between the old, original diffusion paper and the new vellum (below).

[dotnetpete]

I just "re-vellumed" a 4300 that came to me with a dim, sickly green tuning and meter display. Take a look at the difference between the old, original diffusion paper and the new vellum (below).

skibjr, thanks for the pic. Very helpful. So the vellum covers the entire back of the dial plate and the idea is that it diffuses the light out (hopefully) evenly. So it follows that if your paper is too thin, you might see hotspots (i.e. lightspots), but that if the paper's too thick you might get too dim a view on the faceplate. Paper in a smoky environment, combined w/ the heat, is really going to take a beating fast. I'm guessing that really dark spot at the top of your old paper is, what, for the stereo light?

Maybe in this thread I read that the paper behind the meters is really unnecessary. Thoughts on that?

I'm intrigued also by the baker's paper idea and the frosted mylar. I have two units to redo, so maybe I'll try both methods and report back in thirty years which really worked better. :scratch2:

Maybe one thing to try is to see how this baking paper changes color with heat. That is, it obviously has a high flash temperature, but how brown does it get with heat? Never used it. I'm thinking I'll get some, chuck it in the oven and let it stay there quite awhile. If it doesn't seem to brown easily, then that might speak to its longevity in a much cooler environment.

[skibjr]

I'm guessing that really dark spot at the top of your old paper is, what, for the stereo light?
The really dark spot was in front of the quad mode display light. Apparently the previous owner used this unit exclusively in the 4-channel mode.
Maybe in this thread I read that the paper behind the meters is really unnecessary. Thoughts on that?
The meter backs are made of a translucent plastic that diffuses the light fairly well, but the paper helps. I suspect the paper also has somewhat of an insulative effect against the light and heat of the bulb, and may help avoid yellowing of the actual meter plastic (meter yellowing is common on Marantz 250M and 510M amplifiers, which don't use diffusion paper behind the power meters).

[fiddlefye]

The mylar I've used comes frosted and is just a nice white translucency. I think there are probably a few thicknesses available, though the stuff I used was just what they handed me from the case and it worked fine. The same material gets used on violin bridges under the "e" string to keep the thin wire from cutting into the wood (they used to use leather drum skin) and so it is pretty tough for the thickness. I suspect that mylar is far less susceptible to temerature etc than any of the other alternatives readily available, though (like a previous poster) I doubt I'll get to see the ultimate results of ageing on the material. If all of our old Marantz pieces are still happily turning out the tunes by then I guess someone will get to check it out!

[whsh93a]

I've used frosted mylar, velum and other kinds of materials for the diffuser. I must say that I still prefer vellum. That's probably because I always replace my old lamps with the much better Custom LED replacements that are sold and heat is no longer an issue.

DH

[dotnetpete]

I'm replacing the vellum in a 2245, and I decided to play around with a few suggestions mentioned here for the paper. I tested out some new vellum and some baking paper. When I can find some frosted mylar, I'll add that to the mix.

A quick intro: see the summary post above by whsh93a for the macro-steps in removing the faceplate and getting at the dial plate and the vellum paper behind it (if your unit even has paper...not all do). See my photo #3 and photo #4 below for when you get the unit's faceplate off and are about to take off the actual dial plate. It helps to know where you are going.

Getting a photo of the greenish (turquoise) color that shows up in the dial plate of my 2245 is somewhat difficult, as the lighting and the camera equipment greatly influence how the blueness shows up in pics. Look at my photo #1 below. This is a "before" pic taken of my unit, and the blue looks pretty good. It's not, though. In reality, the color actually looks more like the dial plate here: http://www.classic-audio.com/marantz/2240b.html. So a warning: it is very easy to manipulate a light source to get a nice blue in a pic, and what shows on ebay, for instance, may not be the blue you actually get.

I purchased some vellum from a craft store, because they will sell it sheet-by-sheet. Scrapbookers use it, so you can find it where such supplies are sold (which is alot of places these days). Staples, for instance, only sells it by the 50-sheet package (at least the store near me), and that's too much and too expensive. I'm not sure how thick this vellum is, but comparing it to the existing paper in my 2245, which I think is the original, it's definitely thinner. I'm guessing my new vellum is in the .003-.005 thickness range. Thickness isn't the only issue though. The transparency of the paper is more important, thick or not, for how bright a blue you will end up with.

The "baking paper" I got can be commonly found. Specifically, I bought a roll of Reynold's Parchment Paper which is meant for baking. It's cheap: $3 at Walmart for 30 sq./ft., which is enough to re-do all of AK and still have some left over. The paper is just off-white; be sure to check the baking paper if you go this route, as some brands are brown and you don't want to start with that. It's also quite thin, probably thinner than the already-thin vellum I mentioned above. But it's more opaque than the new vellum.

Browning: I cut pieces of the vellum and the parchment roughly to the size of the paper that came out of my 2245 (see photo #5 and photo #6) and baked them for 1.5 hours in a conventional oven at 350 degrees F, checking how brown each got after every half hour (they lay bare on the middle rack).

After half an hour: the parchment paper only very slightly showed any brown, while the vellum substantially changed color, turning a light tan color.

After an hour: both got browner still, although it looks to me like the rate at which they were changing slowed in this period. The parchment changed only very slightly, while the vellum got noticeably tanner.

After an hour and a half: the parchment seemed to change very slightly, if at all, while the vellum now is a dark tan and is almost the tan/brown color of the original paper out of my 2245. At this point, there is a radical difference between the two. The parchment is still more or less off-white in color and could still well function behind the dial plate without turning it green, while the vellum is basically too tan/brown to be of use. Note that in this rather-extreme heat test neither paper curled or bubbled in any way.

General conclusion at this point: this cheap parchment paper should be virtually indestructible behind the dial plate in terms of its browning properties. The environment there is obviously way cooler, and I just don't see how this paper will ever really brown from the heat there. There could be other factors that influence how it browns over the years, like smoke in the air or other impurities, but I should think this paper will outlast the unit itself.

Diffusion: Again, I don't know the thickness of the vellum I purchased, but comparing it to what was in the 2245, it's clear mine is thinner and slightly more transparent. A single layer of this new vellum was fair in diffusing the light against the dial plate, but hotspots (spots of brighter-than-average light) were still evident in the plate (specifically I'm getting hotspots at lamp positions 2, 3 and 5, looking from left to right).

The parchment paper did a slightly better job in giving a more even diffusion across the plate, I think, but the hotspots still showed slightly if you were looking for them. In both cases, I found that the hotspots could almost be eliminated entirely by putting a double layer of either paper behind the dial plate. The light is still plenty bright enough, even with the smoked-plastic face of the silver faceplate installed, which also helps to cut down on hotspots.

Btw, if you think you can get away with no paper at all, temporarily reinstall the dial plate with no paper and no glue and have a look. It looks terrible. You can see the filaments of the lamps shining through the numbers; the places where the lamps are are way too bright, and coming closer, you can see parts of the unit's frame through the transparent numbers. Not good. See photo #2.

Also btw, in my 2245, what I take to be the original vellum was fastened to the back of the dial plate by double-sided tape on all four edges of the paper (see photo #5, photo #6, photo #7). Then, further strips of double-sided tape were layed on top of the vellum and also farther left in the area ringing where the dial plate goes around the meters. This layer of tape helps to hold the dial plate to the unit. The two screws below the meters help hold the bottom in place, and then there is the thin strip of glue along the top of the plate that bonds the plate at the top (to the right of the meters only) to the unit. You don't want to put glue anywhere except along the top, to the right of the meters, otherwise you may never get the plate off again, or perhaps damage or break it in the process if there is glue at the sides or bottom.

That coveted deep blue: Aesthetically, I think we all want the dial plates to appear as blue as possible...it just looks great...:yes: There seem to be at least two types of blue dial plates being used. The one in my 2226 is a *very* dark blue, and it has no vellum or other paper behind the dial plate. It was clearly made differently...you can't see hotspots through the numbers at all. The blue numbers in my earlier 22xx units are more transparent, and require paper for even diffusion. It's pretty clear to me that I'm not going to get as dark a blue in these earlier 22xx units as on the 2226...it's just not in the plastic to begin with. But, changing the paper will restore a blue, even if it's a light blue, and get rid of that ugly greenish-blue.

www.classic-audio.com lists the 2226 as having been first produced in 1977, so I'm wondering if Marantz toward the late 70's, at least in some models, began to make these dial plates a darker blue in an attempt to get away from the need for vellum at all. Again, the 2226 blue is very deep and rich and has no need for paper behind the plate at all. I don't think I can get the same effect in my earlier 2245...perhaps if I used dimmer bulbs than recommended, or switched to led lights like some have suggested. I guess I'm willing to be a bit of a purist here; if these plates were made to have a lighter blue, then so be it. However, at this point I'm willing to switch the paper out and use the parchment paper instead of the vellum, purely for longevity sake. I will test the frosted mylar once I get a piece, though the browning test will probably have to be modified somewhat.

(Okay, since I'm completely obsessed with getting to the bottom of blueness in these faceplates, there will be a part II here, where I'll give some results on my homemade heat test for "frosted mylar", plus more about the mylar in general and also what I take to be the best choice overall.)

Pete.
:music:

[tarior]

I'll take a couple sheets, I have a pile of Marantz receivers here that I suspect would benefit from new vellum. Want me to PM you?

[Chip - HP]

I'm replacing the vellum in a 2245, and I decided to play around with a few suggestions mentioned here for the paper. I tested out some new vellum and some baking paper. When I can find some frosted mylar, I'll add that to the mix. ...

Thanks :thmbsp: ... Pete ... for sharing ...

[ruesselschorf]

I have good results with a 'backprint-foil' for inkjet printers. In Germany it is sold by Zweckform. Its a plastic foil with one opaque, matte side, bright white with no tint at all. I was worried about thermal stability of the foil, put it in a 2270 with bright and hot 300mA pilotlamps, that was about 4 years ago, the receiver is on for 4 hours, almost everyday - so far the dial is still very blue and bright. And no filaments shining throu..

Helmut

[dotnetpete]

Thanks :thmbsp: ... Pete ... for sharing ...

No problem, Chip. I beefed up my vellum post with some pics that may be of interest. One of the other suggestions here was to use "frosted mylar" (aka "drafting film"), and I got some and subjected it to some heat tests too and will put that in a part II.

Pete.

[brooks]

Thanks Pete for starting the thread and the great info. I actually just got a 2226 to start to learn how to refurbish/adjust 22xx Marantz's and this was a great help.

I'm new to the forum and really appreciate all the great people and information to be found here.