Will a SVHS VCR (with S-Video output) yield better quality playing standard VHS?

[ToTo Man]

Hi guys,

My dad has been bugging me for ages to archive all of our VHS family videos onto DVD / hard disk. My summer job has now ended, and so I have a full 3 weeks off before returning to uni, so I should get through quite a few videos during that period.

Its gonna be a BIG job, so I want to make sure I do it right and get the best quality that is feasible.

I don't know too much about VCRs, but I do know that a minimum of 4 video heads is essential to getting a good quality recording/playback. Anything else I should know?

I will be using the VCR to play the VHS tapes and will use my Samsung HardDrive Recorder to archive.

In my experience, S-Video gives better picture quality than SCART (the difference between S-Video and SCART is very noticeable on my 48-inch rear projection TV). Therefore, it would be advisable to connect the VCR to the HDD by S-Video instead of SCART, right? Only problem is none of my VCRs have an S-Video output, so I'll need to buy another VCR.

From some brief online research, it seems like the only VCRs that offer S-Video output are SVHS VCRs. When recorded onto an SVHS tape, SVHS VCRs are supposed to give much better quality than standard VHS (400 lines compared to 240 lines). However as I am just going to be playing normal VHS tapes this doesn't really affect me, though it's always a nice option to have I guess!

What I'm interested in is your opinion on whether playing a normal VHS on a SVHS machine via S-Video output will yield higher quality results than playing it on a normal VHS machine via SCART output?

If I'm feeling confident enough I may also link the VCR and HardDisk-Recorder upto my HT amp, as it apparently allows you to record video from one source and audio from another. Could be interesting!.....

Finally, any recommendations for a good quality used SVHS machine? I'm tempted to get a beast like this: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Panasonic-AG-MD830-S-VHS-Medical-Recorder-VCR-AG-MD-830_W0QQitemZ230162250363QQihZ013QQcategoryZ3318QQ ssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosti ng , but they are fairly old and I wouldn't know where to start regarding repairing it.
So perhaps a more modest one like this would suit me better: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/JVC-HR-S6965EK-S-VHS-VCR_W0QQitemZ110162367735QQihZ001QQcategoryZ3318QQ ssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosti ng
Sorry for such a disjointed post!....

[Arkay]

In general (and theoretically) S-Video should give a superior result, because it is sending separate signals, but I think it may also depend on what you are feeding those signals into.

I use S-Video to feed into a Denon A/V amp, and the results are excellent (given that it is tape to begin with). Sound quality rivals CDs, but picture quality, of course, is not quite up to LD or DVD quality. Still good, though, and YES, an AV amp allows you to separately choose video and audio , and route or process them differently (the Denon uses a "Video Select" control for this, and the readout shows you what is chosen for Audio and for Video). Sometimes I use mine to listen to CDs while leaving the TV screen on, when waiting for a program I want to watch, to start. When I see the program come on the screen, I hit the button and switch the sound over, to watch the program. I have also recorded movie soundtrack sections onto tapes, etc... using this flexibility.

I don't know if you can find one, but JVC's X1 Limited (Japanese market SVHS/ HiFi VHS, tons of belts-and-whistles) player is excellent. It has similar performance to the professional JVC studio deck I had, with features like speed adjustment: ever want to gradually, controllably speed up or slow down a tape AND the sound with it, without the sound changing pitch? This deck will do so, using slider controls and buttons. Only problem is that all the controls are in Japanese, and very tough to figure out if you don't read Japanese, as there are a lot of controls for tweaking and adjusting everything imaginable. I still goof up sometimes and hit the wrong controls, but having all that control available is pretty cool. :sigh: :D]

Some of the other brands had similar-looking models, usually with heavy gold or silver slightly curved faceplates with thick door slabs full of controls in the middle of the face, that open up by hinging downards, revealing the tape slot, and there are usually wooden side slabs. Any of the big decks that look like that should have pro/studio-quality heads and transports in them, and will sound and look very good. I lean towards JVC, though, as they basically invented the format and I think some of the other brands used OEM JVC parts. [Sort of like choosing Pioneer for LDs or Nakamichi for cassette decks - they generally made the best.] They all have multiple in and out formats, including SVHS and sometimes pro and Euro (DIN) connectors, too. However, most of them were not exported officially outside of Japan, so I'm not sure if you can find one in your area.

If you do ever see one of these VHS units, grab it. For a LONG time, I wanted ONE reallly GOOD VHS deck, and went through a series of them, always unsatisfied. Since picking up the JVC X1, I haven't felt a need to get another. A few of the earlier models were of even heavier construction, but they didn't have nearly the performance and features. That said, this deck is just as large as Pioneer's X1 Laserdisk player, and even heavier(!), so it is anything but flimsy. In fact, it's a commercial-sized monster,in a luxury home-use housing. Just wish I could get a user's manual and service manual for it IN ENGLISH! LOL.

[gyusher]

There are services that do this work for not a lot of money using state of the art gear. Much much faster and results superior to what you can do at home regardless of what gear you are using. . . I know there are exceptions but for the most part the work they do is incredible.

A good friend of mine just had this done with results he can't believe and this guy is a videophile/audiophile himself. Knowing him as I do for him to brag about it then it is really something.

[scootchu]

There is an old saying in the TV business "Garbage in-Garbage out" Use the S-Video cable it will be the best that you will be able to do. You cannot polish a turd, so the resulting DVD will be no better than the original tape, but it should be as good.
Select the highest speed that you can on the DVD recorder within reason. 2 hours matches most tapes, but don't try to put more than 2 hours on a DVD you will not like the results.

Tape heads only come into play with slow motion and a 2 head machine will not be any worse than a four during normal viewing.

If you have access to a TBC or a VCR with a Time Base Corrector built in, use it to adjust the tint, chroma, video level and the black level, but don't over use it! Trust what is on the tape.

Also don't toss those VHS tapes! DVD's are not a permanent archive by any stretch, but they are handy when you want random access to a certain place in the video.

VHS as well as all tapes should fast forwarded and rewound every so often to prevent print through and keep them away from magnetic fields or you risk loosing some of your precious memories. AND bust out the record tabs or you may inadvertantly tape over your home movies with an old "Who's the Boss" episode.

Not a tough job, sure it's real time dubbing, but look at how long it took to aquire all those tape hours!

[ToTo Man]

Thanks for the input guys.

Scootchu, interesting your comment about 2-head vs 4-head VCRs. I have a Sharp 4-head VCR and a Matsui 2-head VCR, and IMO the Sharp produces better picture. The sound output is also better in the Sharp (the Matsui seems to boost the sound output almost to the point of distortion). Of course this might not have anything to do with the number of heads, but it is interesting.

Gyusher. Yes, having pros do it would save me a lot of time, but I also wanted to edit/chop some of the footage down as there is a lot of extraneous garbage on it (even my dad admits that! :D). And I don't think he'd run the risk of letting someone else handle his prized possessions.

My archival plans are as follows:
- Dub original VHS's onto Samsung HardDisk Recorder.
- Edit down.
- Burn onto DVD and also dub onto SVHS.
- Rip DVDs to computer.

This way I'll have the originals on VHS, the edited versions on computer and SVHS for safe keeping, and the edited versions on DVD for everyday use. That way if the DVDs get damaged I can burn new copies directly from my PC, and if the PC gets wiped I still have the edited versions stored on SVHS. Sound like a plan? :smoke:

As a side note, some of the VHS my dad made are surprisingly extremely high quality, especially the ones he shot during the 80s with his massive JVC camcorder with separate VHS attachment. That machine caused a few back strains! :D

[ToTo Man]

I'm afraid I've lead us all up the garden path :withstpd:. I double-checked the connections on the DVD/HD Recorder and it has an S-Video output, but no S-Video input :sigh:. The only inputs it has are SCART, composite, and DV (which is like a mini USB). So I guess that throws the whole S-Video idea out the window then. Unless it's possible to get an adaptor to convert S-Video to DV? :scratch2: So, would it just be advisable to use SCART then direct from my regular 4-head VCR to the Samsung? Out of interest, what is the difference between SCART RGB and SCART Composite?

[scootchu]

I'm afraid I've lead us all up the garden path :withstpd:. I double-checked the connections on the DVD/HD Recorder and it has an S-Video output, but no S-Video input :sigh:. The only inputs it has are SCART, composite, and DV (which is like a mini USB). So I guess that throws the whole S-Video idea out the window then. Unless it's possible to get an adaptor to convert S-Video to DV? :scratch2: So, would it just be advisable to use SCART then direct from my regular 4-head VCR to the Samsung? Out of interest, what is the difference between SCART RGB and SCART Composite?

There may be an adapter to go S-Video to Scart.

2-head vs 4-head is not cut and dry. 4-heads allow for better slow motion playback and better picture at slower speeds, but more that likely you tapes were shot on SP and it shouldn't matter. As for the differences in picture from machine, well that could be the quality of the circuits and parts used. My advice to you is to just burn the tapes to DVD and be done. This will be very fatiguing if you have endless hours of tape. Believe me I do it for a living.
;)

[dr.ido]

A SCART connector can carry composite video, S-video, RGB, component video or a combination thereof. Which are available on any given device varies. Cheapo TVs often only have the composite pins connected. On better TVs with more than one SCART input usually one will be wired for component/RGB, the other for S-video and both with have composite. If SCART looks worse than S-video on your TV it is likely that one or more pieces of the chain (the source component, the cable and TV) is only wired for composite video. Anything using SCART to RCA adapters is almost definitely composite video. Make sure SCART to SCART cables have all the pins wired (some of the cheap ones don't).

A SCART connector on a VHS VCR will always be composite video only as there is only composite video available on a VHS tape. An SVHS VCR will have S-video, but it won't necessarily make much difference when playing VHS tapes. It's just doing the composite to y/c decoding in the VCR rather than in the TV/recorder/etc. If the TV/recorder/etc has a better decoder than the VCR then you're better off playing VHS through composite.

A time base corrector (either external or built into a pro vcr) will improve the quality more than using an S-VHS VCR. The best picture quality I have ever seen from a VHS tape was on a Panasonic editting deck with a built in time base corrector.

A high end Japanese market S-VHS deck will probably be NTSC only and will not play PAL tapes recorded in the UK.

[gyusher]

Copy, Edit all you want but I'd do whatever I could to preserve the originals. For playback use your copies but save the originals too. Someday you might be glad you did.

If it were me I'd copy them complete then store those with the originals then use your 'edited' copies for just everyday playback. . . You might be surprised at how important some of the edited material might become. . .

I remember once I needed a part for our old 67 SS427 that we restored. . .Man was I glad I took thousands of pictures of that car. . . Some I thought I could never need became very important when we were validating the car's history. . .Ended up making me about 10 grand. . . I used those old junk pics to prove the car's history among other technical things. . .

[colortrakker]

Wait...these are standard VHS tapes, yeah? Not Super VHS? The resolution's just not there on your old tapes, and an S-VHS deck can't add back the resolution that regular VHS took away. So getting an S-VHS deck may not be justified here (although a really good VHS deck, preferably one with a flying erase head for editing, might be).

Saying that, you can get away with just using RCA connections to the Samsung machine.

[scootchu]

Wait...these are standard VHS tapes, yeah? Not Super VHS? The resolution's just not there on your old tapes, and an S-VHS deck can't add back the resolution that regular VHS took away. So getting an S-VHS deck may not be justified here (although a really good VHS deck, preferably one with a flying erase head for editing, might be).

Saying that, you can get away with just using RCA connections to the Samsung machine.

The signal quality is what it is on the tape, but S-Video is a better way to transport it from deck to deck. Component would be even better if both decks had it. Composite is the worst.

[bru87tr]

hey toto man, cool pic with Steve!!!

[ToTo Man]

hey toto man, cool pic with Steve!!!

Thanks. :thmbsp: I was just about to change it actually! Let me know which one you prefer....