The current Stereophile (Oct. 2007) has a nice art-icle by Art Dudley on his Linn LP-12 with the Ekos SE arm, Keel subchassis and Trampolin base. Thought I'd offer a "heads up". :)

The current Stereophile (Oct. 2007) has a nice art-icle by Art Dudley on his Linn LP-12 with the Ekos SE arm, Keel subchassis and Trampolin base. Thought I'd offer a "heads up". :)

Thanks!
Will have to have a look. Still don't make em much better than that. Just can't get over the pricing tho.What is it, close to $15K for a loaded one now?

But few things spin vinyl better. I guess it is kinda like complaining about Ferraris costing too much. Wouldn't be Ferraris if they didn't cost what they did.

Around $13k with the goodies mentioned above, plus the Lingo power supply.
Art gave a lot of detail about the table, the add ons and provided plenty of pics of everything.

Around $13k with the goodies mentioned above, plus the Lingo power supply.
Art gave a lot of detail about the table, the add ons and provided plenty of pics of everything.
Wow, I had no idea that Linns were getting so expensive these days. It really makes the $350 that I spent back in 1987 for a used LP-12 seem like a serious bargain now though (even though mine doesn't have all of the latest and greatest tweaks).

Currently, I think a basic LP-12 is going for around $2800. The cool thing about the Linn (and some others) is you can always do whatever upgrades you want, when you want. :yes:

Currently, I think a basic LP-12 is going for around $2800. The cool thing about the Linn (and some others) is you can always do whatever upgrades you want, when you want. :yes:

Problem is, if I remember correctly, the basic Linn does not include a power supply. Or arm, of course.
VERY basic! :)

Basically, you're right...I think... :D (Hey! I just rolled over 10k!) :banana:

Sorry, but that's just ridiculous for what it is. Show me where the money goes and why it has got so expensive over the years. It aint in R&D, tooling or material costs.

It's just a case of what the market will bear. A willing buyer - willing seller sort of thing.

Basically goes into R &D, supporting their dealers, advertising, etc. It cannot be cheap to amortize something like the Keel over the possible number of purchasers. I am sure a LOT of engineering hours went into the creation of it. Sure, it could most likely be easily copied for a fraction of the cost, but thats cause the hard part has been done already. Further, the LP12 is being constantly developed. It is nothing like the unit that came out more than 30 years ago.
Hey, lets keep in mind the Ivor Tiefenbrun is one of the most savvy businessmen in audio. He knows the value of selling in volume. If he could make lots more money by selling lots more Lp12's, he would. :yes:

Bigerik, it seems we have just accepted that due to the reputation Linn attained in the 70's and 80's, price increases are ok. With all due respect, Linn is going the other way in terms of volume sales- they are not going after it all. I guess he (ivor) was one of the survivors- the other notable turntable manufacturer still in business of course is Matsushita and I bet there was a period where they actually considered killing the 1200mkII...but along came rap, scratching and affordable home mixers and everyone wanted to be a DJ. Of course Matsushita was large enough to keep it just for fun, whereas (and full credit to ivor) Linn was only, and still is, a small company. My point is this, the 1200mkII hasn't gone up really, in fact if it has gone down in real terms over the last 28 years, whereas the Linn has skyrocketed. R&D on an already produced product where you are only upgrading a bit at a time is really cheap- god, it took them 15 years to create a reasonable power supply, another 10 for a bearing 'upgrade' and so on. I reckon 'Weekend Willy' could have applied the same 'upgrades' over a 30 year period, cobbling them up in his garage workshop for less money and still had the week to do his real job. To me it seems a company running on a reputation aquired a long time ago, producing an ancient device and charging a fortune for it because ivor believes the afficionados will pay anything. If the Linn goes up to $25k will it still sell? I've had two Linns, a really early unit with a 3009 and many years later a valhalla equipped unit with a kuzma arm. Sold them both, bought two SL1200MkIIs (no, not interested in DJing) put them in storage, bought a 2nd hand SL1600MkII, restored it and it use that. Had a 1000 dollars spare too...
I love the fact Linn is still around- it's good for the hobby, but is it really worth the money in this day and age as a viable product?

Bigerik, it seems we have just accepted that due to the reputation Linn attained in the 70's and 80's, price increases are ok. With all due respect, Linn is going the other way in terms of volume sales- they are not going after it all. I guess he (ivor) was one of the survivors- the other notable turntable manufacturer still in business of course is Matsushita and I bet there was a period where they actually considered killing the 1200mkII...but along came rap, scratching and affordable home mixers and everyone wanted to be a DJ. Of course Matsushita was large enough to keep it just for fun, whereas (and full credit to ivor) Linn was only, and still is, a small company. My point is this, the 1200mkII hasn't gone up really, in fact if it has gone down in real terms over the last 28 years, whereas the Linn has skyrocketed. R&D on an already produced product where you are only upgrading a bit at a time is really cheap- god, it took them 15 years to create a reasonable power supply, another 10 for a bearing 'upgrade' and so on. I reckon 'Weekend Willy' could have applied the same 'upgrades' over a 30 year period, cobbling them up in his garage workshop for less money and still had the week to do his real job. To me it seems a company running on a reputation aquired a long time ago, producing an ancient device and charging a fortune for it because ivor believes the afficionados will pay anything. If the Linn goes up to $25k will it still sell? I've had two Linns, a really early unit with a 3009 and many years later a valhalla equipped unit with a kuzma arm. Sold them both, bought two SL1200MkIIs (no, not interested in DJing) put them in storage, bought a 2nd hand SL1600MkII, restored it and it use that. Had a 1000 dollars spare too...
I love the fact Linn is still around- it's good for the hobby, but is it really worth the money in this day and age as a viable product?
If you look at the typical prices of most high-end audio gear these days, the prices are similarly outrageous. While I love my Linn, I could not justify not ponying-up that much $$ for a fully equiped new unit today.

Many of your points can be similarly applied to most other high-end manufacturers. High-end audio has only rarely been about getting the best bang for the buck. It has always been aimed more at cost no-object approaches to getting the best sound, regardless of cost. Generally speaking, larger and larger amounts of money result in correspondingly smaller, and smaller improvements. To some people this is worthwhile. If I had an endless supply of $$, that might well be me. But, having to live on a budget myself, I can understand your reaction. :sigh:

Bigerik, it seems we have just accepted that due to the reputation Linn attained in the 70's and 80's, price increases are ok. With all due respect, Linn is going the other way in terms of volume sales-...My point is this, the 1200mkII hasn't gone up really, in fact if it has gone down in real terms over the last 28 years, whereas the Linn has skyrocketed. R&D on an already produced product where you are only upgrading a bit at a time is really cheap- god, it took them 15 years to create a reasonable power supply, another 10 for a bearing 'upgrade' and so on. I reckon 'Weekend Willy' could have applied the same 'upgrades' over a 30 year period, cobbling them up in his garage workshop for less money and still had the week to do his real job. To me it seems a company running on a reputation aquired a long time ago, producing an ancient device and charging a fortune for it because ivor believes the afficionados will pay anything. If the Linn goes up to $25k will it still sell? I've had two Linns, a really early unit with a 3009 and many years later a valhalla equipped unit with a kuzma arm. Sold them both, bought two SL1200MkIIs (no, not interested in DJing) put them in storage, bought a 2nd hand SL1600MkII, restored it and it use that. Had a 1000 dollars spare too...
I love the fact Linn is still around- it's good for the hobby, but is it really worth the money in this day and age as a viable product?

A good deal of good points but the Technics 1200MKII you can buy today bears little resemblance to the original MK2 or MK3. If I recall those turntables featured no base, a titanium arm and a trick outboard power supply. So clearly Technics is trading on their reputation.

On the other hand Linn are the rare combination of marketing and sound genius. In the US market Linn has had to combat our weak dollar and at home massive inflation and taxes.

Now in terms of disclosure, I have three separate Linn systems, I used to sell Linn in the 1970's and while I am one of the worse salesmen of all time I have sold dozens of LP12's.

That said I dont have any plans to upgrade my LP12 turntable--- I think Ill try another ridiculously expensive brand.

Lionking, with repsect, you are mistaken and confusing other technics tables with the 1200mkII. The 1200mkII has not significantly changed. A very small change to internal pcbs was made in the early nineties but the MkII, the only model I mentioned, is still basically unchanged through its run of about 28years. Of course there are available in addtion to the 1200mkII, several 'improved' models Mk3,4,5 etc. Technics' reputation was hard earned and based on sound engineering practices, good value and an awful lot more tables sold than Linn. I am trying to compare a table with a similar production run here that's all. I love them both, but the Linn is shocking value for money.

That being said, I'll still have one if anyone is giving one away....

Lionking, with repsect, you are mistaken and confusing other technics tables with the 1200mkII. The 1200mkII has not significantly changed. A very small change to internal pcbs was made in the early nineties but the MkII, the only model I mentioned, is still basically unchanged through its run of about 28years. Of course there are available in addtion to the 1200mkII, several 'improved' models Mk3,4,5 etc. Technics' reputation was hard earned and based on sound engineering practices, good value and an awful lot more tables sold than Linn. I am trying to compare a table with a similar production run here that's all. I love them both, but the Linn is shocking value for money.

Absolutely correct for some reason I assumed anyone comparing turntables to a Linn LP12 would be comparing a comparable table --- the SP10 MK2 http://www.soundfountain.com/amb/sl1000obsid2.jpg

BTW I have not heard a serious comparison between your favorite the 1200MK2 and the new Linn with the Keel etc...So no comment. Sorry for the confusion and thanks for the gentle correction.

Can anyone advise if the Linn LP12, complete with Ekos, Troika cartridge (less than 100 hours) and Lingo is worth US$2960 (bought it for S$4500). Estimate vintage I think is circa 1989/1990 about ...... Condition, mint! Thanks!

Jerry, certainly given the retail pricing in the US, USD3000 seems a pretty good deal. Lingo alone costs almost USD2000 new, and the Ekos arm is very dear indeed. I've seen used LP12s with the Valhalla PSU and Basik tonearm go for over USD1000.

BTW, I'll be back in Singapore again in January...let's get together and compare LP12 notes!

Can anyone advise if the Linn LP12, complete with Ekos, Troika cartridge (less than 100 hours) and Lingo is worth US$2960 (bought it for S$4500). Estimate vintage I think is circa 1989/1990 about ...... Condition, mint! Thanks!

I'm really busy --- so short answer --- A good deal. If you bought from a Linn dealer a great deal.

I guess it all comes down to what the public will pay. There are guys willing to lay out $15K for LP12 systems.
Having heard a Pro-Ject RM-10 recently, I wonder what the extra $12.5k really buys....

I guess it all comes down to what the public will pay. There are guys willing to lay out $15K for LP12 systems.
Having heard a Pro-Ject RM-10 recently, I wonder what the extra $12.5k really buys....

As I said before...willing buyer...willing seller. The market sets the price.

As I said before...willing buyer...willing seller. The market sets the price.

Ain't that the truth! :yes:

BTW, is that article available somewhere online, or do I actually have to go and buy an issue? :)

I'm not sure I even follow this thread --- it seems that those who have not heard a Linn with the new SE upgrades are sure it can't provide $12,500 of value.

On the other hand the Project with the power supply and optional base actually costs substantially more than the prior generation fully kitted out Linn table on the used market, yet the Project is viewed as a brilliant bargain?

I'm not sure I even follow this thread --- it seems that those who have not heard a Linn with the new SE upgrades are sure it can't provide $12,500 of value.

On the other hand the Project with the power supply and optional base actually costs substantially more than the prior generation fully kitted out Linn table on the used market, yet the Project is viewed as a brilliant bargain?

Well, I don't know how you can compare something new to something used. The Pro-ject is a wonderous sounding turntable. Once it is 10 years old and costs half of what it costs now, then it will be fair to compare used values. Then again, I would hope that on resale value a 2007 vintage Linn never hits the resale value of a 2007 vintage Pro-ject.

And if you look back at what I wrote, I did not say that they Linn was not $12,500 better than the Pro-ject. I just wondered what the extra $12,500 dollars actually bought. I can't imagine a difference that would allow me to justify to myself that it was worthwhile to spend the price of a compact car more on the Linn. Perhaps if I heard it I would change my mind.

Well said. It's amazing how often I use the compact car comparison too- most audio gear fails that test. However, if I added it all up, there'd be a new sports car or two there....

Ain't that the truth! :yes:

BTW, is that article available somewhere online, or do I actually have to go and buy an issue? :)

The issue just came out, so the article probably won't be posted online for a few months. Go to a Books-A-Zillion and read it there! :D

The issue just came out, so the article probably won't be posted online for a few months. Go to a Books-A-Zillion and read it there! :D

Theres a Chapters not too far from here, so I will have to take a look. Haven't bought one in ages, but I used to subscribe for years. Only good thing they really have going for them now is Art Dudley.
Oh, and Fremer can be fun too.

Thanks so much for the clarification. I was not aware that a person looking for a $3,000 table would not consider used. So the used table and new table markets are separate and distinct much like new construction homes vs. existing or new coins from the mint vs. circulated coins, stocks of existing companies vs. IPOs. Its all interesting since when I go out to buy something I'm taking the path of how much value do I get for my dollar and I always thought it was wise to consider demo's used etc...

I 'm putting together a new system and I haven't done much shopping in years so thanks for the insights.

Thanks so much for the clarification. I was not aware that a person looking for a $3,000 table would not consider used. So the used table and new table markets are separate and distinct much like new construction homes vs. existing or new coins from the mint vs. circulated coins, stocks of existing companies vs. IPOs. Its all interesting since when I go out to buy something I'm taking the path of how much value do I get for my dollar and I always thought it was wise to consider demo's used etc...

I 'm putting together a new system and I haven't done much shopping in years so thanks for the insights.

Don't get me wrong. I have nothing against buying used. Most stuff I have bought has been used. I LOVE the Pro-Ject RM 10, but chances are that if I was really setting out to buy one, it would be on Audiogon or somewhere. Let the first guy take the depreciation hit....
Its just that lots of other things come into play when buying something 10 years old vs something new.While there is probably not as much to go wrong in a turntable and a car, for instance, for the same money you can get a 10 year old BMW vs a new Fusion. The Fusion will probably be more reliable. Require less maintenance. Be cheaper to run. etc. The BMW likely not share these qualities, but will provide you with more than likely a more satisfying, if more expensive and trouble prone, ownership experience.

So, comparing new Pro-ject to New Linn. Great value. Comparing New Pro-ject to Used Linn? Different proposition. Best bet is to have a listen to both and see which one YOU like the most, preferably in your own system. The Linn will require more maintenance (cause its a Linn), more tweaking and probably be less reliable overall than the Pro-ject, but if you enjoy the music more through the Linn and are willing to accept those issues, then the Linn would be the way to go.

Hope that helps!
Erik

Jerry, certainly given the retail pricing in the US, USD3000 seems a pretty good deal. Lingo alone costs almost USD2000 new, and the Ekos arm is very dear indeed. I've seen used LP12s with the Valhalla PSU and Basik tonearm go for over USD1000.

BTW, I'll be back in Singapore again in January...let's get together and compare LP12 notes!

PM me when U back ... Thanks for the "assurance" ..... Cheers!:banana:

I'm really busy --- so short answer --- A good deal. If you bought from a Linn dealer a great deal.

Hi LIONKING,

Thanks for the answer. Dont think local Linn dealer sells "used" Linn LP12 .... bought the setup from a used hifi dealer ... Cheers!:D

The article is finally online:

http://stereophile.com/tonearms/1007linn/