Warps - How Much is Acceptable?

[Mchaz]

Hello all,

I am just getting into the world of vinyl since I got a new cartridge on my TT about a month ago, and it seems every record I spin has at least a little bit of wobble. It got me thinking, how much can an LP be warped before you all find it unacceptable?

I've had a couple of really bad cases where the tonearm looks like a ship sailing a stormy sea (those go to the unplayable pile), but for the most part it just bobs up and down a little. Most of the time I can't even discern an impact in the sound from the warps. However, I wonder once I get an RCM, and upgrade the TT will I start to notice a degradation in sound quality? Anyone here only play perfectly flat LPs?

[Celt]

Try a good record clamp. With a few exceptions such as edge ripple, they can really make a difference.

[Mr. Lin]

Ideally your records should be flat, but you'll find that many are not. That said, it's not good for your cartridge to play seriously warped records, although some, like your M97XE, are better at handling it. For me personally, two things determine the limit with warped lps: the first is which cartridge I'm using at the moment (I have two turntables and a number of cartridges from various price ranges) - if it's one of my expensive cartridges I won't play anything that's more than very mildly warped. Second, if I hear audible distortion as a result of the warp I will probably trash the record altogether.

Where are you getting your vinyl?

[KlipschFan61]

I play them unless the stylus can't handle it. The AT440ML I use has pretty good suspension and is matched very well to the tonearm's compliance factor so as long as it's not bottoming out and the sound quality isn't suffering, they get played.

I'm looking into buying a clamp in the near future to at least knock down some of the storm swells my cartridge has to surf over, but the really bad albums still get tossed into the dumpster.

[Mr. Lin]

My Pro-Ject has a clamp, and it helps, but sometimes the warps are too severe to really make a difference. I think a clamp is a good idea anyway. So is a workhorse cartridge like your Shure or the above-mentioned AT 440MLa, which can handle that sort of thing. You do have the stabilizer brush down, right?

[Fred Longworth]

Essentially, there are three types of warps:

(1) Dish warp;
(2) Saddle warp;
(3) Pinch warp.

In a dish warp the center is above or below the rim, depending of which way the record is installed. Clamps work wonderfully for when the center is higher than the rim, but flip that same record over and the rim will be higher than the center. Rim clamps are available to cure this, but they can easily damage your stylus.

A saddle warp should be self-explanatory. They are essentially dish warps with an axis. Again, a clamp is helpful, but due to the assymetry of saddle warps they aren't as effective as with dish warps.

A pinch warp is a bump localized to the edge of the record, often 1-2" in size. They can be useful is testing tonearm damping, as with a well-damped arm the oscillation that follows hitting the bump will decay faster. I know of no direct way to compensate for a pinch warp other than "fixing" the bump.

Some people use heat and clamping to flatten their warped records. This actually works, but you need to experiment with a few sacrificial records to get the technique down.

Fred

[wiredbecker]

If you don't feel like running out and spending money tonight, you can sometimes shim the center hole with some folded paper (if it's loose) so that it fits snugly against the spindle, thereby holding down the record, realigning and absorbing some of the warpage.

Just something to try in the meantime...

[OscarEmmy]

My Sony with Shure V-15 is not as forgiving as my Linn LP12 with Adikt was at handling warps...can bottom out on some bad ones. I have been lucky, not too many warped records even at Goodwill! I had one that was unplayable and used heat, as Fred said, then clamping it for a few days. It's not totally flat, but it is very playable now (ironically, it was an LP called 'Too Hot to Touch' - by Ben Sidran). I wouldn't have bothered, but it was otherwise mint!

[imready]

My wife says I'm warped . The older I get ,the more warped I get.I still like to play so I do.
Same goes for my lp's, if they still like to play , then let them. Is it really worth trying to save wear on a stylus by throwing away an lp that you love and listen to once every three months. Not to me it ain't! I just keep looking for a replacement, then I throw it away or move it to one of my lesser systems.

[BrocLuno]

The big deal with warps is whether they cause damage to the rest of the system and stylus. The second factor is whether or not your TT and arm can handle the movements.

A warped record puts a LOT of motion into the stylus and that often means a big lazy voltage spike into the amp so you see your speakers doing the big pulse. It may not be audible because it is likely below the lowest audible threshold of you system (like 1 or 2 Hz). The music may continue to ride on the big speaker bump, but most often you'll hear it. The big deal is if the woofers are displaced to near the limits of travel and then they get a big music signal too, they can hit the limit stops (not good). Good pre-amps and receivers have a filter called "subsonic" or "low cut" or some such. That filter kills these kind of signals (warps) to protect the system and speakers.

The other deal is about the cartridge. If the suspension is very compliant (like an 440MLa) it will bottom the cantilever (not good). It may dampen the motion enough to prevent the arm from launching, but it may not be good. So the deal here is to look at the side of the record and the "needle" and see that they are playing well enough together and nothing is bottoming :)

If the cartridge and arm look like they can handle it and the speakers are not getting kicked too hard, you are good to go. Playing a physical medium like a record has challenges and takes a bit of operator input and guidance. It's not like just sticking in a CD and not knowing what's happening :)

[melofelo]

remember to engage your subsonic filter if you have one when playing severe warps..especially with ported speakers..:scratch2:

[PeterFCassidy]

I had an AR turntable with a Stanton HiFi cartridge that could track a pizza with 12 topics. It was unreal. I have had no other turntable with the capacity to track warped records.

My Sony with Shure V-15 is not as forgiving as my Linn LP12 with Adikt was at handling warps...can bottom out on some bad ones. I have been lucky, not too many warped records even at Goodwill! I had one that was unplayable and used heat, as Fred said, then clamping it for a few days. It's not totally flat, but it is very playable now (ironically, it was an LP called 'Too Hot to Touch' - by Ben Sidran). I wouldn't have bothered, but it was otherwise mint!

[Mr. Lin]

The other deal is about the cartridge. If the suspension is very compliant (like an 440MLa) it will bottom the cantilever (not good). It may dampen the motion enough to prevent the arm from launching, but it may not be good. So the deal here is to look at the side of the record and the "needle" and see that they are playing well enough together and nothing is bottoming :)



I thought the 440MLa was a low compliance cartridge?

[BrocLuno]

It might spec that way, but I've watched mine move a LOT with only 1.0 grams downforce. It seems pretty rubbery in real life? It has a compliance factor of 10 (medium) or x10-6 cm/dyne. On my medium mass arms, it's pretty flexy.

Back to the warp and the best way to handle - if your receiver has the low filter and you want to play the oldies-but-goodies, build up a second headshell with a DJ cart. They are pretty tough and some sound pretty decent - not audiophile, but the record isn't audiophile at this stage either. They play tough tracks pretty well :)

[KlipschFan61]

My 440ML, not MLa, specs say low tracking force high-compliance but I think they're both probably similar.

[Mchaz]

I guess I'll elaborate on my situation more. My vinyl collection is in its infancy. I picked up about 40 classical records for free from estate sale leftovers a while back. They are in varying condition. The remaining 20 or 30 I have either picked up a couple at a time from garage/estate sales, thrift stores, and a few of the more odd titles I bought from that auction site. None I have played are perfectly flat, but there are some that are close.

From what I can tell my TT tracks pretty well in its current configuration. The tonearm has a claimed effective mass of 7.5g, and combined with the Shure (brush down) I have yet to see the cantilever bottom out. However, I will be sure to watch more closely for that now. According to Fred's description most of the warps I run into are pinch warps where the warp is only prominent in the outer grooves.

Mostly I was curious as to where other members here draw the line. It seems to me that common sense prevails.

[gusten]

Since I raised the resonance frequency above 10Hz I must say I have absolutely no problems in playing warped records.Records that earlier was impossible to play without jumps and distorsion,are now a peace of cake.
So i really recommened to look into this if there is problems.
/gusten

[gorillasalad]

Are you guys crazy? Just stack your warped records flat and put some even weight on top, like put a large book on top and a couple bricks on top of the book. Your records will flatten in a day or two. Don't know what all this fuss is about. The grooves have had no ill results from this procedure in my experience, records play much better flat!

[BrocLuno]

Are you guys crazy? Just stack your warped records flat and put some even weight on top, like put a large book on top and a couple bricks on top of the book. Your records will flatten in a day or two. Don't know what all this fuss is about. The grooves have had no ill results from this procedure in my experience, records play much better flat!

To be in this hobby you need a fancy microwave felt lined heat press with forced air cooling cycle. Nothing less will do :banana:

[gorillasalad]

Not if you live in sunny and warm (southern) california, here records will warp if you stack'em wrong, or flatten if you apply the proper force.