San Francisco's Big Antenna - Sutro Tower [Archive] - AudioKarma.org Home Audio Stereo Discussion Forums

Sandy G

02-29-2008, 01:16 PM

The WIMZ/WBIR tower in Knoxville has been a part of the landscape of NE Tenn since '63. It was the tallest structure on earth for a few months. The interviewed some codger who lived next to it once, & his only complaint was that the guy wires "sang" under the right wind conditions. There is a platform elevator in the middle of it that one or 2 guys can ride on-I wonder if I'd have the nerve...

mhardy6647

02-29-2008, 01:21 PM

I remember quite fondly also the "Candelabra" at Television Hill in Baltimore from my yoot.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/d2/Tower07.JPG/150px-Tower07.JPG

The folks on WBAL radio in B-more used to refer to Television Hill as "Radio Knob"...

http://www.coasterquest.com/wbal02.jpg

MAXZ28

02-29-2008, 01:30 PM

Do ya think the neighbors would mind if I threw one of them puppies up in the backyard? :D You can never have too much antenna....

Why have I not noticed the Sutro on my drive down from Sacremento? I clearly remember seeing the Golden Gate bridge off in the distance, but I never noticed that behemoth!

mhardy6647

02-29-2008, 01:40 PM

It's way on the top of a hill -- kind of dominates the skyline.

As I recall, those hills are called "Twin Peaks", no?

spartanmanor

02-29-2008, 01:44 PM

These towers are right down the street from me. They were built during World War I and were the first trans atlantic wireless towers.

http://www.lauravickers.com/wireless1.jpg

onepixel

02-29-2008, 01:46 PM

These towers are right down the street from me. They were built during World War I and were the first trans atlantic wireless towers.

http://www.lauravickers.com/wireless1.jpg

Wow... that's kinda.. macabre

spartanmanor

02-29-2008, 01:49 PM

Wow... that's kinda.. macabre

Yeah, It's the only shot I had from a 30's vintage postcard. You have to look for them now. The trees and city have grown a lot since this shot was taken.

spartanmanor

02-29-2008, 01:54 PM

Here is more info for those interested. I may have my facts wrong in the previous post.

http://www.arlingtonvirginiausa.com/index.cfm/9481

*maybe my facts are right. :D These are pretty historical. Most people have no clue they exist.

Whitehall

02-29-2008, 02:20 PM

No clue they exist?

They look hard to ignore....

saltwater

02-29-2008, 03:12 PM

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd198/justineakins/1000ftdecauter.jpg

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd198/justineakins/400ftottumwa2.jpg

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd198/justineakins/ice900ftquincy-1.jpg

none of towers local but just some pics of working with them!

spartanmanor

02-29-2008, 03:15 PM

No clue they exist?

They look hard to ignore....

The area has grone a lot since the teens and with high rise buildings and trees they are not as noticable. Also the shot from Arlington Cemetary is not a place a lot of "living" people hang out. :D

spartanmanor

02-29-2008, 03:16 PM

mhardy6647

02-29-2008, 03:20 PM

I had no clue about them, and our daughter spent 4 years just across the river.

TheRed1

02-29-2008, 03:21 PM

Saltwater, where is that tower?

I guess I'm somewhat of an antenna guy but I work with an x-broadcast engineer who used to climb the big ones out on the Great Plains - HE is an antenna guy. He's told me some great stories - my favorite: he accidentally left a pair of aluminum framed glasses on a lower platform and; while he was working near the top, a bolt of lightning hit the tower somewhere beneath him. When he went back to retrieve his glasses, they were welded to the tower! He even gets calendars with photos of the big towers!

We've got some interesting ones scattered around Washington, D.C. I read something about Spartanmanor's towers on a website about Cold War history but I can't seem to locate it. I've always been intrigued by the Cold War era troposcatter antennas scattered on mountaintops across this region. They are huge, nuclear blast hardened blocks of concrete with parabolic reflectors focused DOWN toward the ground. Some are still operational and shrouded in mystery but here is a decommissioned one that I believe was for sale at some point and a realtor was able to photograph inside:

http://coldwar-c4i.net/ATT_Project/Buckingham/index.html

saltwater

02-29-2008, 05:07 PM

The first one is a 1000 ft in decauter illinois. (CTN) It is a very solid tower, cant remember what brand it is off the top of my head, but it will come to me.

Second is a 400 ft in ottumwa iowa, looking out into an alfafa field.

third is a 900 ft in quincy illinois, WTJR channel 16. Im pretty sure its a rohn...

As far as the lightning hittin the tower, never seen or had that happen, ive seen it hit towers. Ive also seen on am towers, the glass ball that it sat on collapsed and the tower shorted out. They have to jack the whole tower back up and put it on a new insulater. Theres more stories if your intrested i could embelish.

Im pretty sure this is the second tallest tower in the world, something like 2060 ft?
Be sure to hit the positive on the magnifying glass. Pretty in depth look at it!
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2c/Kxjb_tv_mast_pano.jpg

Justen

02-29-2008, 05:28 PM

I worked for a TV station in San Francisco for a couple of years and got to go up in the tower- not the base, but up the angled elevator in the legs. Had to wear a lead suit for the trip. Pretty cool.

Sandy G

02-29-2008, 05:34 PM

If I had to climb them damthings for a living, that would be the year all the hornets 'n' waspers got together & decided to build on Antennas exclusively...

saltwater

02-29-2008, 07:01 PM

Oh they build on em, they love the heat of that sun just baking it. They lay all over it, just brush em out of the way youll be fine!

wajobu

02-29-2008, 07:06 PM

Changin' light bulbs up there saltwater? Quite a view!

Paul C

02-29-2008, 07:24 PM

Yes, a great structure--nice list too there Paul C.

I note we have a some nice 2000' towers in my home state.

Hey, Saltwater... do you wear a 'chute when you do that?

saltwater

02-29-2008, 07:37 PM

Relamping, Reguy, Replum, General maintenance. Erect, tear down, move. you name it! No chute, wouldnt open in time anyway! I havent been working with towers for about a year now, but its a wild job. You forget to hook off while your working. Your mind goes elsewhere....

markthefixer

02-29-2008, 07:39 PM

skiddlycat

02-29-2008, 08:14 PM

In the early 80's I lived in Newton,Mass., on top of a small hill with a spectacular view of the famous Route 128 antenna farm. The RF in the area was so strong my speakers played music even when the system was turned off!

Whitehall

03-01-2008, 01:46 AM

I used to carpool with an electrician who moonlighted as a tower guy.

Most religous guy I ever met. Before he'd start the car, he'd pray, sincerely.

electronjohn

03-01-2008, 07:43 AM

Having worked in Fargo back in the 70s, I'm quite familiar with those BIG sticks. KXJB and KTHI (now KVLY) built them approximately halfway between Fargo and Grand Forks...near Blanchard, ND a few miles west of I-29. A Guard helicopter clipped a guy on KTHI's and down she came. Spoke with an engineer who was on duty the night it happened...he heard a strange, deep groaning sound and looked out the transmitter building door and looked up to see red lights waving back and forth. Ran back into the building and hid under a desk. Seemed like 15 minutes to him of groaning, crashing steel. When it was over he was able to pick his way through the mess and survey the carnage. They're designed to collapse into a big pile rather than "tip over". If you ever visit a tall tower site, you'll also note the construction of the transmitter building...THICK reinforced concrete roof with either a drive-in garage for maintenance vehicles or a reinforced overhang. You'll also note the inverted-v shaped steel guard over the run for the coax/waveguide/etc running from the building to the base. The reason for this? ICE. The big sticks are designed to withstand hurricane-force winds...but, when they ice up...all bets are off. You DO NOT want to be anywhere near a tall tower when it starts to shed its load of ice...HUGE chunks come plummeting down and would make mincemeat of your car. A number of tall towers have come down when they could either no longer withstand the sheer weight of the ice or the ice buildup caused them to fail due to excessive wind load. Current technology would allow construction of towers to at least 3,000'...but the FAA won't allow it due to the hazard to air navigation.

I have the UTMOST respect for "tower guys". They, along with the guys who work on 500kV power lines earn every dime they make.

Addendum: Something was nagging at my feeble mind...then it hit me: It was KXJB's...not KTHI's that went down...TWICE! First time was the copter incident in 1968, then it succumbed to the ice/wind combo in '97. Rebuilt both times, of course.

Sandy G

03-01-2008, 08:10 AM

Oh they build on em, they love the heat of that sun just baking it. They lay all over it, just brush em out of the way youll be fine!

Somehow or another, just "brushing off" a beachball sized Hornet's Nest w/up to 1000 angry hornets 750' or so up in the air just doesn't sound like Much Fun...

Lefty

03-01-2008, 08:29 AM

I was working in San Fran. when they were constructing the Sutro tower. Lots of angry citizens could not believe they approved and built such a large visual "eye sore". Of course that is subjective and I thought it was a pretty amazing structure.

I seem to recall reading something about it's design. Being free standing (not guyed wired) and in earthquake country, there was a cement foundation poured underground that made the center of gravity of the whole structure be below ground level !!!

Lefty

KentTeffeteller

03-01-2008, 08:46 AM

Hi,

As a broadcast engineer I have only the highest of respect for Tower repairmen and riggers. That is the one part I must farm out due to physical challenge. Yes, you don't want to be around when ice falls off of a tower. It isn't pretty on your crushed car. Neither do you wish to shake up that beachball sized hornet's nest or deal with Mr. Timber Rattlesnake. Both of which are common residents at broadcast sites. Both have a tendency to get in the way of your work.

Sandy G

03-01-2008, 11:02 AM

We had a beautiful old water tower at the place I used to work-4 tapered legs up to a "tin hat". I was FORBIDDEN to even get close to it when I was a kid. Well, one day when I was 11, 12, thereabouts, I says, "Phooey on 'em ! I'm gonna climb the damthing !" Well, I start up, & could see at least one, possibly 2 currently-in-use hornet nests, & several pie-plate sized wasper nests... Decided I did not need to climb that water tower that badly....

electronjohn

03-01-2008, 11:11 AM

One of the most interesting things I've seen was a thing on Discovery Channel about the guys doing maintenance on the Empire State Building's antenna tower. #1...the TV stations had to sign off to allow the work to be done...so the climb was done between midnight and 5AM. Elevator to the top of the building, then IIRC a ladder to the top of the "spire". Then, out a trapdoor and up the tower they went...lugging 75-100# of gear along with their heavy coveralls. The worst part was at about the 1350' level...when they had to unclip and climb up and over an ice barrier made of steel mesh sticking out about 2' around the tower. Then they could finish the climb to 1465'. Of course, they had to climb back down, go around the barrier, etc. Fascinating.

saltwater

03-01-2008, 01:59 PM

Yeah, its hard work, but rewarrding. I dont know how to dual quote a post but everything in post 32 that electrojohn says is well true. You dont want to be around them in winter! Ive seen on the 1000 footers, the guys would start galloping. When Its cold out, and the sun starts shining, the guys will start galloping, it can bring a tower down(everything has its resonate freq.). Ive dropped quite a few towers by tightening up the opposit two anchors and taking a concrete saw, and cut the anchor off... Just imagine it if you can. did that to some 300 ft'ers, and its a sight. moaning groaning, then sound like a jet going bye( the wind rushing thru the tower), then it all lays on the ground. They are designed to fold up on themselves on the way down. The self supportings are built on a floating pad. never seen one fall or collapse, but have seen some rickidy ones about 50-75 years old that were in horrible shape.. you wont get me up those, only to rig it for when you call a crane in to pic it and lay it down. Water towers are water towers, bout all you can do is mount stuff on top, or the catwalk. im rambling anywho.... give or take a letter on my spelling.

OvenMaster

03-01-2008, 04:11 PM

http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/645/10001889medvo8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
From http://gallery.bostonradio.org/2004-05/pv/100-01889-med.html
Provin Mountain, Agawam, MA: "Mike drove us up to WWLP's transmitter site (which is also the former location of their studios) on Provin Mountain in Agawam. From the back side of the building we can look up and see a whole bunch of towers, but two obviously stand out. The stubby one on the left is the original channel 22 tower, dating back to when WWLP first moved from channel 61. The one on the right is the current home of WWLP, its digital signal on channel 11, WAQY (102.1 Springfield) and WPKX (97.9 Enfield)."

1948epiphone

03-01-2008, 04:17 PM

Hey MRH,

The Sutro tower is on Mt. Sutro, not Twin Peaks. Sutro was one of the early SF robber barons.

similost

03-01-2008, 04:20 PM

Yeah, It's the only shot I had from a 30's vintage postcard. You have to look for them now. The trees and city have grown a lot since this shot was taken.

No wonder I've never seen those... pretty cool.. gonna have to go look for them now..

similost

03-01-2008, 04:22 PM

So have you ever wanted to pack a BASE chute and take the easy way down Saltwater?

I know I sure would want too... amazing views..

OvenMaster

03-01-2008, 04:32 PM

http://www.necrat.com/picture_index.html
has links to a LOT of antenna farms and sites all over New England. :)
Tom

saltwater

03-01-2008, 05:08 PM

No chute, wouldnt open in time anyway.. plus your mush when you hit the ground anyway.

Brian

03-01-2008, 05:19 PM

I can no longer climb a 6' ladder without breaking out in a sweat. My hat is off to you. As a kid I'd go on the slate roof on our 6 story apt building to tune my ham antenna but forget it now. I get vertigo. I'd love to put any of the antennas pictured here in my back yard.

Sandy G

03-01-2008, 06:36 PM

If the WIMZ antenna was accessible, & I could DO it, I'd love to hook up one of my R-390As to it....THAT would be something, I'm sure..Talk about a DXer's dream...

markthefixer

03-01-2008, 07:21 PM

I was really impressed with the density of equipment up on Mount Wilson when I was there in the mid 90's... I always wondered just how powerful the RF fields were, up there...

But little else can compare to that SF tower....

All they do around here is stick them on top of the tallest buildings like the Sears Tower and the John Hancock Center...

If it's tower sites you are interested in check out Scott's site www.fybush.com (http://www.fybush.com)

I put up the fricking MOTHER LODE of tower sites, with pictures of transmitters and studios to boot, and NOBODY notices....:D

and here's a good source of base jumping videos http://www.vertical-visions.com/stockvideo.php

But with antenna jumping, I have one question:

WHAT about the guy wires??????

saltwater: when I saw your third picture, looking DOWN at an ICY tower, I cringed.........

12ax7

03-01-2008, 09:47 PM

I was in the 82nd Airborne during the Vietnam War and there is no way I would climb that tower. My hat is off to you guys! When I lived in SF in the early 70's I would sometimes catch a buzz, crank up KSAN and take a drive in the morning fog in the hills near Sutro. That thing gave me the willys from the ground!

saltwater

03-01-2008, 10:55 PM

Bah, whats that saying, "Mind over matter". Base jumping off a tower is just plain NUTS! About every hundred feet the damn wind changes speed, and direction. If its to windy you dont go up, raining, colder than a witches tit. (unless its an emergency job) youd have to be nuts to jump off a tower, and one thats tall, like over 1000ft. Those guy wires get to be over an inch thick, bridge strand. cut you in half if your chute didnt open in time. we did one 1000ft (erected it) and we used a 30 ton hydrolic, 5 inch stroke come along, to put the required tension on it. slips my mind what it was, but it was an insane amount. also i got a sb104 ham radio setup at one old tower site, guy had a beam on top and suspended wires hangin off all over. lucky me we got clean the tower off and i asked to have the setup. Got like 300 ft of the coax, hell thats all i neded. I didnt want to hijack this thread... condolences...

Punker X

03-02-2008, 01:55 AM

Great thread.. as an ex Navy ET.. spent a lot time aloft working on antenna's, booth tied to the pier and emergeny repairs under way. Was less that 200 feet, can't imaging working on a 1000+ foot stick. Was 20 years ago, now I have problems climbing my 35 foot mast to work on my APS13.

electronjohn

03-02-2008, 09:19 AM

markthefixer: Mr. Fybush's site is one of my faves...and I really enjoyed the link OvenMaster posted to the necrat site...pored and pored over the section on the Empire State Building. Hard to believe that the antenna mast was constructed over 60 years ago!

Jeffhs

03-02-2008, 10:14 AM

In the early seventies I lived (very briefly--only three years) in Cleveland Heights, an eastern suburb of Cleveland. The local FM station had its studios, transmitter and tower on Lee Road, which is the main street of town; I lived only about a third of a mile (more or less) from the tower and could hear the station on channel 6 on my TV, between the local stations on my cheap stereo FM radio and every other FM radio I owned, and even on my dad's Ampex Micro-88 stereo cassette tape deck. (I could also see the tower lights from my third-floor bedroom window after dark; that's how close I was to the station.) The local station's tower was directly above the studio building. I hate to think what would have ensued had the tower collapsed or when ice fell off it after an ice storm. Heaven help anyone who would happen to be driving near that tower when those huge chunks started falling after a thaw. :yikes:

matt_s78mn

03-02-2008, 10:14 AM

third is a 900 ft in quincy illinois, WTJR channel 16. Im pretty sure its a rohn...

I used to live in Quincy and remember this site being quite interesting. The radio station WGCA 88.5 is co-located there. Their transmitter is housed in an old refrigerated semi trailer that was originally brought in there as "temporary," but, it ended up that trailer was used as not only to house the transmitter, but it also had an office, a production room and a studio room in it. Everything obviously crammed in there. For many years they broadcast from that trailer and referred to it on air as "the meat truck." They have a studio downtown now though, and I think the original Gates FM20H3 has been replaced by a new Harris solid state transmitter.

I remember there being railroad track that crosses the road near the site, and is close enough to the tower that it goes underneath one set of guy wires.

There also used to be an old modular home that was on the property that the radio station employees and anyone out working on the site used as a bathroom, breakroom, etc. but it burned to the ground from an electrical fire.

Lastly, there were a few junked cars on the property, i think a couple of amc gremlins and some old vans if I recall correctly

kcollins4

03-02-2008, 10:44 AM

There are several tall towers in Missouri City, Texas. One of them collapsed in the early eighties while under construction. Alot of pictures of the aftermath here, and some shaky footage of the tower pieces, and workman, coming down. Big time law suits. This (http://ethics.tamu.edu/ethics/tvtower/tv3.htm) is long, but an interesting read.

saltwater

03-02-2008, 12:00 PM

I remember there being railroad track that crosses the road near the site, and is close enough to the tower that it goes underneath one set of guy wires.

Cant recall this but you could be right, the tracks arr bye one side of the guy wire but not sure if the go under the guy wire.

There also used to be an old modular home that was on the property that the radio station employees and anyone out working on the site used as a bathroom, breakroom, etc. but it burned to the ground from an electrical fire.

Got a concrete building now.

Lastly, there were a few junked cars on the property, i think a couple of amc gremlins and some old vans if I recall correctly

Cars no more, totally cleaned up.

matt_s78mn

03-02-2008, 08:51 PM

Cars no more, totally cleaned up.

Yea I moved away from quite a while ago so my memory is probably a bit foggy, but thanks for the jog down memory lane. :)

EddyR

03-03-2008, 06:08 PM

Interesting thread. I lived 1/2 mile from the tower that's listed in Holiday Florida. There are houses right up next to the tower base less than 200 ft from it. When I lived there I was selling real-estate and it was hard to get financing for people that wanted to buy there. I did a lot of research to get a paper that showed that guyed towers fall on a circle that is no bigger than 10% of there height. It was from the military dated 1968. One day at a closing the person handling the closing said to me "Ed this guy on the paper has the same name as you" I just smiled and said nothing. I wrote the report in 1968 when I was a contractor building antennas for NAS listening stations. I quoted some other paper as I was never involved with anything over 200 ft tall. The guy wires on a tower weigh hundreds of times more than the tower and they pull it down in a tight circle. Two hurricanes can close when I lived there and it is amazing how much the guy wire move in the wind.Also they make a very loud noise in high wind.It sounds like a jet is circling the tower.
Ed

saltwater

03-03-2008, 06:34 PM

Yep, all down pressure. Wind blowing thru the guys does sound like a jet. Thanks for sharing.

ron-c

03-03-2008, 09:56 PM

Cool thread!

Thanks,
Ron-C

electronjohn

03-04-2008, 07:11 AM

Another cool site for tower/transmitter junkies: http://hawkins.pair.com/radio.html

1948epiphone

03-05-2008, 07:14 PM

I used to do afternoons at an AM daytimer in Eugene, Oregon. Frequency was 1360. Tower bulbs burned out and the cheapskate owner asked if anyone was will to climb the thing and swap out the bulbs. Me big stupid. Former high school gymnast, no fear. Me volunteer. What an experience. This was a tower you climbed on the outside, no safety harness or caribiner. Up, up, up. Only problem; when you look up, it seems totaly benign, you want to let go and float. I fought off that urge, changed the bulbs, climbed down, and threw up. Should have got combat pay.