Yamaha CA 810 versus CA 1010 and variable loudness.

[Dark Knight]

I am considering buying either the Yamaha CA 810 or CA 1010. I currently have the CA 610 II but want a bit more power. (don't we all?) I really like and use the variable loudness control. The CA 810 still has it but the CA 1010 does not. What is lost or gained in the CA 1010 with respect to tone controls. From what I can tell by looking at the front plate the tone controls are same without variable loudness. Is there some improvement with respect to the CA 1010 that it does not need it? I would greatly appreciate your thoughts. I like the variable loudness so much I think I would be willing to give up the big jump in power of the CA 1010 unless there is some other redeeming quality.

Best Wishes,

DK

[merrylander]

Not to my knowledge.

[analog addict]

...would be the switchable class A function....:scratch2:

I have both, and like both. As far as picking one, I haven't compared one against the other, so I will abstain....

[joelongwood]

If you really like the Variable Loudness feature, I don't think you would be happy with the CA-1010. I have a few Yammies with Variable Loudness and, like you, I think it's a wonderful feature. I also have a CA-2010, which, in terms of sheer power (and size) is more impressive than the others, BUT, I miss the Variable Loudness so much that it sits idle. I'm curious as to why Yamaha would omit this feature from it's more powerful amps.:scratch2:

[Dark Knight]

I am greatful for your responses because it confirms my suspicions. It would be nice to have the extra power but not at the expense of the variable loudness which really "sculpts" the sound.

DK

[kretinus]

My main listening system is driven by a Yamaha RX-V995, I also have my CA-800.

I used to think I couldn't live without the variable loudness, but then I finally got some decent speakers and found the additional power of the 995 is of far more benefit than the variable loudness and with decent speakers hooked up to the 800, I don't need it anymore.

But it was nice to help dial in less than adequate speakers.

[wajobu]

You could always consider a CA-1000. It has both Class A and variable loudness. One of the sweetest sounding Yamaha amps...but I still like my original purchase (1978) CA-810. I find that it's a very versatile amp with plenty of power.

[Eric Clark]

You could always consider a CA-1000. It has both Class A and variable loudness. One of the sweetest sounding Yamaha amps...but I still like my original purchase (1978) CA-810. I find that it's a very versatile amp with plenty of power.

:yes: The CA-1000 is the best of both worlds

[jckonicek]

I understand how the variable loudness control works but I'm just curious about how YOU use the variable loudness control. It seems to me that once you decide to use it, the main volume control is set to some level rarely to ever be adjusted again and the actual volume is then set by the variable loudness. What confuses me I guess is why then the vol knob is the large knob with the loudness control being small. Seems to me they should have made the small knob the maximum vol set and then the large knob would be the variable loudness knob (or listening volume setting).

[Dark Knight]

I use the variable loudness and volume to maintain a certain "tonal" quality. The variable loudness does not change a whole lot. It ranges between 7 and 5, depending on the volume. At higher volumes i.e., 7, the variable loudness is more towards 7. At lower volumes, i.e., 3 or 4 the variable loudness tends towards 5. But that is just my preference. Perhaps a little naive. There are certain songs that change this as well.

DK

[SoCal Sam]

The CA-1010 has a massive transformer and plenty of power. I never use any kind of loudness so I do not miss variable loudness.

BTW, anyone know why on Variable Loudness scales, cranked all the way left is labeled "Flat"?

[Dark Knight]

Oh, if it helps any, the speakers I am using (at different times) are the JBL 4301Bs and the L46s. I find the 4301Bs much more "piercing". There is a high frequency edge, although there is plenty of powerful bass.

DK

[Tromatic]

Because a "loudness" control is essentially a tone control. Flat means no effect, or off.

The CA-1010 has a massive transformer and plenty of power. I never use any kind of loudness so I do not miss variable loudness.

BTW, anyone know why on Variable Loudness scales, cranked all the way left is labeled "Flat"?

[SoCal Sam]

Because a "loudness" control is essentially a tone control. Flat means no effect, or off.

OK...so taking the V.L. off Flat means using the effect. However volume decreases and the "loudness" effect seems to decrease as well. In my book, this is counter intuitive.

[Tromatic]

http://www.extron.com/company/article.aspx?id=loudnesscontrol_ts
Now I'm wondering if I have that backwards.

OK...so taking the V.L. off Flat means using the effect. However volume decreases and the "loudness" effect seems to decrease as well. In my book, this is counter intuitive.

[Acoustic]

BTW, anyone know why on Variable Loudness scales, cranked all the way left is labeled "Flat"?

I'm going to take a stab at this question (and then run with it)... BTW I started off with a CA600 in 1977 and loved it.... then in 2006 decided to get back into vintage and got a CA1010 (and worked on by EchoWars)... and then a CA810 for the bedroom....then a CA2010 because of the deal.... then last Nov I bought wajobu's CA1000 he sold generously to benefit AK.

When the loudness control is all the way to the left it's labeled 'flat' because no (or little?) loudness contour is added to the output signal. So essentially Tromatic is correct. And when you turn the knob to the right you are is increasing the bass and treble to the output signal to compensate for our ears inability to hear lower end bass and higher end treble at lower volumes to a specific contour. The more you turn the knob to the right the more contour you are adding but you are lowering the volume so the bass and treble stay sounding essentially the same. I say essentially because everyone's hearing is different and we don't know what 'contour' Yamaha used. Here is one I got from Wikipedia:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3164/2311817694_178ba5c4eb_o.jpg

But when you have the loudness in the flat position. You are only listening to a flat signal if the tone controls are at '0' (with the loudness on flat.. you can still use the tone controls). So... IMHO... you folks with switchable loudness when you have the switch off... and your tone controls flat.... as you increase the volume, your amp is not changing it's loudness contour at all, you are increasing the perception of the bass and treble to your ears (WOW this sounds better!). Same as when you turn down the volume, the music will seem to get a decrease in bass and treble because of the amps inability to change it's loudness contour (Man my amp sounds like sh*t at low volume). So... on the amps without the loudness knob (other brands, the 2010 and 1010). As you increase or decrease the volume... you have to fiddle with the tone controls... to keep it at the 'sound' you like.

On the Yammies with the loudness control. You put it on flat... set the amp to the highest volume you usually listen it at.... set your tone controls... then use the loudness control to change volume but keep the same perception of the bass and treble settings. And.... that is my take on this. :yes: Opinions welcome!! Oh...BTW.... find a CA1000!!!! It's my favorite of the ones I have... loudness control or not!!:thmbsp:

[Dark Knight]

Fantastic explanation. I am printing this out. The CA 1000 seems to be getting quite a number of recommentations. I did see the AK benefit sale as I scrolled through some older postings. I hope to get equally lucky in the future.

DK

[Acoustic]

Thanks. From watching auction sites I have seen a bunch of Yamaha CA series amps sold in Canada. Seems I see the CA1010's the most and the CA1000's the least... offered from anywhere.

[SoCal Sam]

Acoustic: Thanks for the explanation. While I am not a fan of V.L., I still would like to know how it works.

Sorry for the mini-hijack!

[Dark Knight]

Yes. There are a couple of auction opportunities at the moment and I am trying to make up my mind about which unit to focus on.

DK

[merrylander]

Those loudness contours are called the Fletcher/Munson contours after the two gentlemen who discovered the phenomena. Essentially the softer the sound, the more our ears lose the high and low notes. Typical switched in loudness is simply a tap on the volume control and only functions while the control wipers are below the tap.

Yamaha thought this was not too swift so they developed the VL. Essentially you should leave it in the flat position. Then when you want to listen late at night, or other times when it should be done quietly, don't touch the volume control, simply dial down to the level you want with the VL.

[ecluser]

The way Acoustic and Merrylander use the Variable Loudness is the way it should be used.
The purpose of this VL is to compensate for the "difference" between the curves Acoustic posted in this thread, and not to "fit on" one of those curves.
As you can see, the difference in low frequencies between the 100 phon curve and the 60 phon curve is much lower than it is at middle and high frequencies. In fact, you don't need any compensation at high frequencies.
In all my Yamaha receivers an amplifier, I removed the capacitor which gives a boost in the high frequencies. I preffer to have only low frequencies compensation.
The volume control is adjusted to compensate for different source signal. Have you ever realised that some records are much louder than others?

Dark Knight, I have a question for you... I know there is a preamp-out jack in the CA-600, but I don't know about the CA-610II. It should be easy to ad one if there is no preamp-out.
Could it be possible to use your CA-610II as a preamp to feed a more powerful amp?

[Tromatic]

Makes we wonder about the volume pots on a 1010. Mine has what looks like sseven separate pots, one for balance and six for volume. Could the 1010 have an always-on loudness?

If I get motivated, I will look again tonight.

[merrylander]

For whatever reason Yamaha uses volume control at several points, you should see the one in the 3020.

[ecluser]

As I can see (hifiengine), part of the volume control is before the tone circuit, and part of the volume control is after the tone circuit.

[Dark Knight]

I can can check if there is a pre-amp out when I get home tonight, too..

[merrylander]

The 3020 adds two more sections (L&R) at the input to the seperate headphone amp, so it has a seven section control.

[Susurus]

I am happy with the controls on my C-4 pre.

The controls change the degree of compensation and can shift the turnover frequency, so you can have for example <180 Hz dialed way up, or <400 a little up. Similarly the hf can be tuned to taste/loudspeaker. And then quickly switch back to 'normal' with Tone Bypass.

Not as quick as the VL in my CR-600 or 16.5 but more flexible.

Saw a pic of the C-85 and it looked like a different control set.

Susurus

[xoaphexox]

You could always consider a CA-1000. It has both Class A and variable loudness. One of the sweetest sounding Yamaha amps...

I agree! I am going to get rid of my CR-2020 soon so I can just enjoy the CA-1000!

[Dark Knight]

I don't think I have ever seen a CA 1000 for sale yet.

DK

[Eric Clark]

I don't think I have ever seen a CA 1000 for sale yet.

DK

Where have you been looking and how long? They are not that rare on ebay and we had two sell on this site.

[Dark Knight]

Hi Eric. I have been looking for about two months. Yes, I do recall a CA 1000 for sale on AK before I knew what they were. I was referring to my usual sources outside AK. The forum rules have trained me so well to "not go there" with respect to buying and selling on AK that I just block out the possibility.

DK