Surround speakers - does size matter?

[MstrCylndr]

I'm looking for a set of small surround speakers (need to have a high "Wife Acceptance Factor") to mount in our family room. The room is 22X24 with a cathedral ceiling. I was hoping to mount them up on one of the walls that rise up to the peak. I was looking into the Boston Acoustics MCS100 Mist Satellite Speaker since as a plus I can change the grill cover color. Is there anything similar by other manufacturers? Vintage stuff is ok too.

[prisoners]

I've always thought it was more important to match the fronts and center in tonal qualities than the physical size. (I know, that's obvious!) I very small speaker will have trouble filling that size of a room.

[x_25]

Minimus 7's. Tiny little things that can be found in black metal, silver metal or wood (slightly harder to find) and sound great. They are only about 7"x5"x5". I actually use a pair for my main speakers. (they go by other names besides Minimus 7 though so you might have to look around)

[ARRAY]

There can be lots of bass info sent to those rears depending on the movie you're watching. MINIMUM 6.5" woofer cone area for rear channel duty.

[Face]

I would say timbre matching is more important than size.

[RadShak1251]

There can lots of bass info sent to those rears depending on the movie you're watching. MINIMUM 6.5" woofer cone area for rear channel duty.+1

I used to think small surrounds, like those with 4 or five inch drivers, would work fine because when the receiver's crossover was activated, the bass that was sent there was so "weak" that a little speaker would be all that was needed (though those Minimus models CAN sound like much larger speakers!).

Wrong.

Couple years ago I finally tested this out by using my Minimus 77s (the tag though says RCA - I bought them new in 2002) with a single 5.25" woofer as front mains in place of my Boston CR9s with a 8" ported woofer. Receiver bass management crossover was set at 100Hz, the lowest it can go. Subwoofer was turned off for this experiment. Music played was various stuff, like NOFX, 311 and Alan Parsons Project.

BIG difference folks.

The little Radio Shack speakers, as good as they were, sounded wimpy and thin compared to the Bostons. And watching the Boston's woofer jiggle around (real technical term there eh?) even with nothing below 100Hz reaching them convinced me that the little surround speaker idea was no longer valid in my mind......and what about 80Hz, the standard crossover point for an HT system? As a side effect, this discovery also made me realize that this is probably why so many sat/sub systems sound so crappy, especially with music. It's not the sub it's the satellites that are the culprit (and cranking up the crossover to a higher frequency causes another set of audible problems I won't go into here).

BTW: mounting surround speakers near the ceiling is going to disturb the surround soundfield, lessening the realism and giving the system a sound a bit like a P.A. system in a department store. Front-to-back moving sound effects will be especially unrealistic. Surrounds should be mounted slightly behind, to the sides and around 3ft above the listening position if possible.

[Face]

I too prefer large surrounds. My current surrounds have 2 8" woofers each. But I still believe timbre and placement are more important. It is nice to have bass all around though. :D

[thedelihaus]

Nearfield, using rears like Minimus 7s and Paradigm Atoms/Micros have been a good choice for me. As for front speaker and rear speaker matching, timber/voicing is super important as is tonal quality. and it becomes more important for the rears if you want true integration as an all around to match your fronts.

And... the bigger the room, the more important size is.

For my tiny room setup, Micros or Minimus speakers have been fine, but yeah, 6.5" or even 8" are proper for any medium sized room to really get the most of your venture.

Hells bells, go for th' gusto if you gots tha room...........

[whoaru99]

The little Radio Shack speakers, as good as they were, sounded wimpy and thin compared to the Bostons. And watching the Boston's woofer jiggle around (real technical term there eh?) even with nothing below 100Hz reaching them convinced me that the little surround speaker idea was no longer valid in my mind......and what about 80Hz, the standard crossover point for an HT system?

Just to clarify, with a crossover set at 100Hz, there is still quite a bit of information below 100Hz going to the speaker. So, it's not surprising that a speaker with a larger woofer sounds fuller in your test. As I understand it, if one were playing something 100Hz @ 80dB, you'd still have 68dB of output at 50Hz (assuming 12dB/octave filter) - but then you have to factor the natural low end roll off of the speaker as well.

Also, smaller woofers just can't move that much air. While they can sound pretty darn good with a sub, there's still quite a bit of punch and slam above 100Hz that a larger woofer can do better with.

However, most people have constraints and can't have physically large speakers at all points of a 5.1 or 7.1 system. To me, proper placement and setup of the system probably is more important than having large speakers for surround or back channels. Although, if it's possible, I have no problem with larger.

I think the 80Hz crossover often recommended for a starting point (and it's the THX specification) is mostly about the highest point where localization of the sub starts to become difficult.

[RadShak1251]

Oh I never meant to imply tonal matching wasn't important - I was just bringing up the issue.....that I brought up above. :)

When I brought home my first A/V receiver back in 2001, at the time all I had for rear channels were those $20/pair KLH plastic speakers that look almost identical to Minimus speakers. The KLHs were much brighter than my Bostons and the surround soundfield just wasn't there really i.e. I could easily tell where each set of speakers was located. :( So upgrading to the warmer-sounding Minimus/RCA speakers made a big difference.

And speaking of tonal matching......in 2004 when I swapped out the Minimuses for some Pioneers with ported 8" woofers, the soundfield became even more seemless because of their much-increased bass output vs. the Minimus speakers. This was an effect I had not counted on, though it took a couple years for me to realize *why* that effect might be occurring (see my first post). This effect is particularly apparent when listening to multichannel music.

[Tripqzon]

The best thing to do is get all matching speakers. This will give you the most balanced sound possible.

[genojayhawk]

would it be a sin to have a surround speaker dedicated subwoofer?

Basically since MOST people who live with WAF need smallish surrounds but still want the big sound from behind. is this even the right way to go about it? IS one sub sufficient?

[HomerJ]

I have two pairs of these B&W (http://www.bowers-wilkins.com/display.aspx?infid=1503&terid=2028) speakers (side and rear). Work great, sound terriffic, lockable swivel base, mounting holes and all, can be mounted sideways. They used to come in an array of colors (Pearl white, Black, Silver, Turquoise,Burgundy red), you can probably find something to your taste new or used.

[genojayhawk]

Gallo nucleus
Focal sib n cub
Orb Audio
Morel
Celestion SoundStyle® Series
Mordaunt Short genie

this is a list (off the top of my head) for non box shaped high WAF sat speakers.

Is there a budget? are you wanting 2 or 4 or how many satelittes?

[MstrCylndr]

It would be two satellites as my current HT receiver is a 5.1 and I don't forsee going to 7.1 anytime soon. Budget? If I HAD to buy new, maybe $200 max for the pair. My current fronts are a pair of JBL Northridge N38's with an old, barely useful, Panasonic center. That will go soon as budget allows.

[RadShak1251]

^ if that Panasonic center really stinks,* definitely run your system in phantom center mode: just program your receiver for "no center" and that signal will be redirected to the front left/right mains. If those speakers are set up properly & on either side of the monitor and you sit roughly in front of them, whatever is in the center signal will come from there.

This is how I run my own system for Dolby Digital, DTS and Pro-Logic because as strange as it sounds, personally I don't much like the surgical pinpoint effect a center provides (phantom mode provides a smoother integration IMO). Though I do have an Infinity bookshelf available for use as a center for use with my multichannel dvd-audio discs, but only because my player cannot reliably downmix the center into the mains since bass management on many early dvd-audio players wasn't well thought out.

* using a lower quality center in an HT system can really hold back the overall quality of the entire system, since so much of the movie's soundtrack - particularly the dialog - emanates from the center channel.