Ran across this auction just a few minutes ago, this seller has some pictures of the inside of one of the M-Star amplifiers that were mentioned a while back. That design looks pretty decent to me considering they are not terribly expensive.ebay M-Star amp (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3082970456&category=3280)

Hell, the guts to that Chinese amp looks more organized and way more neater than the innards to my good ol' American made SS McIntosh!

The wiring job on that M-Star is like fanatical attention to detail. At that price it is just amazing. Ideal Innovations (www.idealinnovations.biz) is another company I have seen who goes to quite a bit of an extreme when it comes to design, though their stuff is built up in Canada. Some of their chassis designs can be kind of strange looking, but still nicely made stuff at decent prices.

The layout looks nice but isn’t it opposed to most best-practices involved in point to point wiring?

“In true Point to Point, the components and wires are as far from one another as it's practical to get, and where crossovers are needed, they can be at almost right angles and the lengths of paralleled wires are about as small as they can be.”

Also the parallel runs along the case isn’t optimum.

Here’s an article that seems to layout the benefits of proper Point to Point wiring.

http://www.geofex.com/Article_Folders/pt-to-pt/pt-to-pt.htm


Just curious since it looks nice but does that mean it sounds good?


Mitch

That M-Star is the same as my MingDa, my model is the MC34-B which is rated at 22wpc instead of the 35wpc the "A" version has. The MC34-A also uses a different tube complement.

I guess this picture shows all those who tried to group all chinese stuff together and say that all chinese gear suffered from a lack of quality control to be wrong. Like I said not all apples are the same just cuz there an apple ;)

Yes Braillediver mine sounds fantastic ;)

Thor, that amp is damn nice!

Now that you've had your new amp hooked to your altecs...which system do you find yourself listening to more?


enjoy!

Cool


Mitch

When I flat out want to rock I play them both at the same time ;)

Both have their strengths and I really prefer a "wall of sound" but I do play just the tubes and Altecs alone sometimes while doing chores, I never just play the CV's alone cuz if I am firing up the power and the glory it is time to rock out!

But when I am in a more mellow wanting some background music kinda listening mood I play just the tubes and the Altecs.

I will also say this tube amp holds it's own very well, I was worried about the lack of low end many said tubes have and I am happy to report I lost nothing in going from a 120wpc to a 22wpc tube amp ;)

I have also put it through it's paces I played the tunes insanely loud 110 db avg level or so 116 db's or so peak for about six hours straight last night including one tune the blew all the fuses in two sansui pieces back in the day. I might have been able to even go louder but I was skeered I was gonna hurt something but that tube amp just glowed away and never broke a sweat ;)

My BEZ Model Q4B 6SN7 SRPP line stage preamp is point to point wiring, even if it's not the neatest wiring job ever created. I can live with that (and no PCB)!

There is probably little wrong with using a PCB for certain components as long as the traces on the board were not carrying the high voltages. Of course some amps use them merely as a support to hold components and still have point to poing wiring. In reality as nice as a good wiring job is, even that old Masco I restored (despite improving the wiring job, I can't make it a work of art like the M-Star, Ideal Innovations, etc. with those braided wires, or my Kailin with its perfect 90 degree routes) still sounds quite good. Even a decent wiring job can sound poor with bad tubes too, as I mentioned when I replaced all the tubes in my Audio Experience. Still I think my main point here was the attention to detail it would take to create something that clean and neat on the inside, and that the Chinese amps could offer it up just as well as anyone, just because they were made in China doesnt make them sloppy in assembly. If it puts tubes in the realm of affordability for someone its all the better.

Couldn't have said it better, yrly. Although my BEZ preamp doesn't look nearly as tidy as the M-Star, it doesn't look any worse than my vintage Mac SS amp...I'm completely satisfied.

Howdy Guys,

I've been gone for a while! While I was out, I picked up a nifty Cayin TA-30, which is one of these "new breed" Chinese built amps. It is really nice, especially at the price I paid for a brand new one!

So, here it is:

Enjoy,

TIC

Those amps sure look nice, and I'd be happy to own any of them, but I do have a question for those in the know....

I always thought that the purpose of point to point was to limit the length of parallel runs, yet these amps seem to have quite long parallel runs?

Yes, well it is hard to see from the pic but the brown squares are the bases of transformers. The large one at the bottom is the power supply. The green and red twisted pair go to the light by the switch and then the filaments of the driver tubes. The AC runs to the switch and back to the PS, out to filter caps off to power the output transformers etc running though the choke and resisters to step down the current before it goes to drive the tubes. Most all of the wires on the bottom of the pic will be part of the power supply circuit. The wires at the top are signal wires which you want to keep away from the PS. The size of the chassis is pretty much decided on the size of the PS and OPTs and trying to get a little distance between your driver tubes and the PS. It is easier to prefab wiring harnesses and things and get them quickly installed if there is enough room so that you are basically doing most of the layout in 2D. The more sets of inputs the more signal wire is running up one side. The more options for speaker impedence the more wire going to more sets of binding posts. Since consumers want the inputs by the outputs in the rear far away from the the controls and driver tubes where the signal is amplified the runs tend to get long.
The way to avoid this is DIY. The way to avoid DIY is to buy something that has design compromises.

Thanks for the info Thatch. I guess separating power from signal is most important.

And frankly I like the nice and neat looks. Was just wondering why long parallel runs, but I guess manufacturing ability and costs would require some compromises. And now that I've gone back to look at some of those pics in a new light, I can see where a 'wiring harness' approach would make assembly not only quicker but easier for line workers to accomplish in a professional looking manner.

Amps should be tall instead of flat using 3D space more and keeping length of runs down, but since the 50s Ranch House school of design took over the world...........well you get me. If there were only 8 ohm speakers, if there were only one source and if the seeing of wires was not taboo a lot of this stuff would sound better. Good thing about the layout on the better Chinese amps is that it looks like there is plenty of room to put larger and better caps in, changing to different resisters won't require extensions on your fingers or an extra hand, etc.
Basically while there are a lot of sloppy products and low QC on many things made in China there are some good ones getting tossed into the same class. Made in Japan used to mean it was cheap!! Some of it was. Some of it was very good and still is. Time rolls on.

"Basically while there are a lot of sloppy products and low QC on many things made in China there are some good ones getting tossed into the same class. Made in Japan used to mean it was cheap!! Some of it was. Some of it was very good and still is. Time rolls on."

Exactly Thatch that was all was trying to point out to Mr. Sawyer in the other chinese amp thread ;)

Don't worry about Ed, Thor. When you have been around as long as he has, you might get a bit jaded too. It hasn't been that long since you were a true believer in high watts being the only way to go. Your attitude has changed a lot in the less than 2 years since I stumbled in here. I find it just a little amusing that you are not only a staunch defender of tubes but Chinese ones at that.

You ready to start rolling some drivers? Power tubes can shape the tones but the drivers can create the soundstage. Finding the best combo between the both is part of the fun. I'll dig through my tubes for some 6922s and see if I can come up with a couple of pairs for you to try.
They might not be better than what you are using, but I'll bet you hear some changes. Pick out some tunes that have some definate placement of instruments, vocalists etc that you know well, I'll see what is left after I let the tubies at Ward's go through, get a couple for myself and see if I can pick out some that closely match for you.
If you have a schematic so that I can see how the sections are used it would be helpfull.
I have Amperex Bugle Boys and GEs Mil spec, both labeled as 6DJ8s but built as the military equivelent 6922s. Just learned how to tell visually 2 weeks ago.
Give me a bit of time on that as I blew all my money on tubes at a Hamfest Saturday morning. $.59 in my pocket!!!

RuSsMan has your old tube amp right now. He had some speakers of the same brand that he wanted $10 for, so I bought them and later took them and the integrated back to his place for him to play with. He seemed pretty happy about playing with it for a while. He is the 3rd after me and shrinkboy to use it. I hope he is trying a lot of speakers on it.

Cool Thatch no schematic all I know are the tubes are 6L6 6P3 x 4, 6N1 x 2, 6N2 x 2 ;)

I've seen quite a few of the Chinese amps, a few years ago I looked inside an early ASL and was surprised to see Cerafines and other good components, I had an Eastern Electric Minimax here last year which was ok, but the fact is - although some parts are good and you can get better quality point to point wiring from a Chinese worker, the place where all these amps fall down is in the most important and expensive part - the transformers.

Unfortunately, there's no substitute for good trannies and no way to get them cheap. I think ASL uses reasonably good ones, but in most of the brands I see, the trannies are the very weak link.

The quality of the transformers has been the main question in my mind about the newest producers for a very small market. It isn't like it is new technology but like anything else there is an art to it. Hopefully the Chinese firms with long range goals have hired talent in the transformer winding. I lammed some myself and know that potting is much easier than that, but it would take some time to learn winding. It would take talent and training to equal the better output transformers of the West and Japan. It could be that it is starting to happen now and will expand later. I do see that for the average consumer that wants to delve into tube hifi they are stuck with vintage (old and needs upkeep), DIY which takes some skills, time and temperment, or the better of the amps coming out of China.
Of course it is all in the enjoyment. I go through a lot of gear back here by the computer. I think my favorite has been an Eico AF-4 and a pair of Stromberg-Carlson 15" red paper coax. I know that neither has been the best back here but it was possibly the best combo.
Now I am going to see if the designer package 78 Taittenger has held up enough to sell a bottle to a wine and art collecting doctor. Life is hell, because while I collect this data I am going to force myself to listen to the new HC Jr and try and catch him syncopating.
For those of you who check the time of posts I have not slept in 36 hours so the sun is definatly over the yard arm.
If you would care to find out the condition of the $300 btl champagne I am forced to consume, ask.:o

I myself was initially worried about the trannies in the Kailin too, which after opening I was somewhat relieved they at least did not skimp there. Uses a good sized power tranny and two seperate output ones (as opposed to one with seperate windings), has a good deal to do with why that small cube weighs over 25lbs. Initial worries aside I still think the overall design is impressively neat. Unlike the MingDa and others here with the long runs of wire it has relatively straight silver wiring, point to point soldered in 90 degree bends. What difference this really makes to sound though aside from looking rediculously tedious from an assembly standpoint I really don't know, as I said my old Masco dates to the late 40s and sounds otherwise fine despite its sloppy look inside compared to these chinese jobs. Aside from being assembled in China I don't think the Kailin had a single chinese part in it except for the tubes. Tubes seem to be the next weak link of these amps. Once you start rolling some new tubes into them things can change drastically. Like the Audio Experience preamp from Hong Kong, which sounds entirely different with good NOS tubes (Mazda 5Y3GB and Sylvania 12AX7s in my case), these things seem to benefit drastically too. I have found the Chinese preamp tubes to be a weak link. They were the first to go in my Kailin, now I have Sylvania 12AU7s, and the first to go in my Peavey power amp (NOS Sears Silvertone 12AX7s and a TungSol 12AT7). Amps sound a lot more open, the chinese tubes tend to have a harsh sound quality in that arena, much more open airy sound can be heard even with the stock power tubes if you ditch them. In theory in an internal design like the Kailin in which the trannies are housed inside and not visible you could even swap them for better counterparts and not change the cosmetics of the amp if you were so interested. I myself have no problems with the package deal and have left things as they are aside from the tubes.

Well the champagne was still alive, only oxidized, not maderrized so I will get $100 for this OPOS. and help out somebody. The packabe is woth more than the wine, I enjoy a $8 bottle of Paul Cheneau spkling wine from Spain much more, though you can still taste a bit of the quality that was there and let this wine live so long. Good Balance.
As it relates to audio...Well there is nothing to perk it back into form like a variac but it was old, just a relic of what it had been. An amp from a mere 25 years ago would have been fine and a tube amp could have been brought up on a variac, not so this fine old bottle, now turned gold and really only a thing of interest to professionals. Kind of a shame, but since I was the pro that got to taste it and verify whether its litter mate was fit for sale, not bad.
Wine is not like audio. When they have been laying around for a long time the audio can be nursed back to health and possibly without a transplant. The wine aged to perfection and then just got old. If it hadn't been of high quality it wouldn't have survived and most crappy audio from 25 years ago has long been part of a landfill, of interest only to archiologists hopefully a long time from now.
Tubes and a lot of the pieces that make up an amp will indeed last longer than our bodies. That piece of junk, if it is intact, is not trashed might be well worth keeping for its historic value.
I buy the old shit to pull parts from but hey why not revere it? The amount that the old console in today's dollars could well put it out of your reach! And most of them are not worth keeping.
I don't know if Wards trashed it bit I took a few chassis down to his place to see if anyone would take then for parts.
One had a summed center PP for bass (and looking at the stereo opts maybe up to 200Hz, a early subwoofer amp!!!) and a pair of Single Ended 6BQ5 output transformers. The stuff might be in a land fill by now because there was no interest. (well I tried) but the little se OPTs could well have been part of a great biamped system.
Looking underneath the chassis of the 2 amps brought, well the wiring wasn't as good as the Mindg Da, the componats other than age were probably new, as good or less the quality and the build quality was definatly inferior.
Now one could take the stand that since this piece of gear was a mid fi amp, not meant for great sound etc. Fact remains that it was an audio amp built in a line in the US 50 years or so ago and when new could not compete with Thor's amp. Well it was never supposed to compete with the HiFi of that time........... but you do have to consider the price, the market share etc. It was the cheap Chinese amp way back! The next step up were the kits, Eico, Dynaco, Heathkit and whoever.
Price knocked as low as it would go, corners cut (PS for dyna ST-70?) and you had to build it yourself.
Todays dollars and you can buy something that can compete(maybe) with the kits of 50 years ago. We really don't know how the transformers will stand up, but I expect fine. Will the quality of the OPTs be up to vintage? No reason not to expect so, so since it aint rocket science and counting turns can be taught, I expect at least better than mediocre.
Is a better than mediocre tube amp at these prices worth it? I think for the never seen a tube before generation it is great. If nothing else there is an object for the young to ask questions about. In the near future tube gear even of the mass produced type is going to be so scarce or so elitest it will be out of reach and everyman will be reduced to using the lowest common denominator. Compost heap contibutor.
The tube gear from China is filling a nitch at the moment, there is no reason why they won't be making the 8bs tomorrow. And will do so till it costs to much to build them.

Well there were a couple of germs in that post champagne twaddle.

Found this pic while researching Ming-Da amps :

Say Thatch, where's a good place in the Dallas area to hear tube amps? I don't think I have ever heard one, and I'm curious.

inside my Ming Da MC300

looks decently well put together to me .. and once I've rolled some tubes in it I'm expecting it to sound even better

regards Ronnie

Dallas Audio Club or the Lone Star Bottleheads. DAC you listen to what is owned by who is sponsering the event. The Bottlesheads drag in all kinds of DIY, new and vintage tube gear as well as speakers of many flavours.

You need a new phone dude!

Show us the top Bob!

Cool pic of a naked nude Dan.

Thanks Thatch, I was impressed to see such beefy tranny's on that. First time I seen a pic of the transformers. Someone else made the comment about them having puny transformers, I think I laid that rumor to rest.

I've just had it a few weeks but so far I'm well impressed .. it cost me £800 all up with no hidden extras .. pretty good value I'd say.

regards Ronnie

p s any tips for tube rolling in the future? she uses 805's 300b's 12ax7's and 12au7's.

Yeah since I have hefted one I knew the puny transformer thing was BS, for an amp that size that thing is HEAVY ;)

I also like the folks who comment on Chinese tube amp quality in general as being poor. Well as I have said before that isn't the case with these, look at the wiring underneath them if that's not and indication that some care and expense went into the building of these then I don't know what is.

I've just had it a few weeks but so far I'm well impressed .. it cost me £800 all up with no hidden extras .. pretty good value I'd say.

regards Ronnie

p s any tips for tube rolling in the future? she uses 805's 300b's 12ax7's and 12au7's.

What is tube rolling?
Thanks.

Tube rolling is putting in different brand/style of tubes in it, but the same electrical characteristics. You can normally only put the same type of tube in 12ax7 for 12ax7, or 12au7 for 12au7, but say a Mullard or Telefunken in it's place.

Just a thought on transformers, reading elsewhere this seems to be a point that is questioned in these chinese amps. I however agree with Thor, most of what I read seems to be based on opinion of those who have never actually laid hands on one. My Dared MP-7 and Kailin are quite heavy for their size. I know Dared has been maligned elsewhere because representitives selling them hyped them up, but in reality there is nothing shoddy about the construction, especially at the price level, and it is a very good sounding amplifier. Like a vintage receiver you can feel the heft behind even some of the smaller ones.

The wiring jobs tend to be immaculate, beautiful and as much a work of art as some of the flashy cosmetics the amps display from the outside. Has anyone who maligned these ever worked on a vintage USA made amp? When I restored that one Masco amp I redid some of the wiring to clean things up and it still does not look half as well done. I fully appreciate the amount of work it must have taken to do some of these.

If you want to see some interesting chinese equipment check out ebay seller 18audioguy. I have no affiliation with this seller but had looked at some of his gear when deciding upon my Dared, every so often one of the auctions will have a nudie shot of a particular amplifier, and most of it looks well constructed. The 845 amp he sells as well as the EL34 Yaqin (or however you spell it, its a big one with three Torroidal trannies, and is sold by a few different sellers) look like interesting pieces of gear. Its stuff I keep in mind when the time comes around to get myself a new toy to play around with.

That said, new toy or not I don't know if I would part with the Dared in its current setup, very smooth sounding amp, and I use it quite often. I put all NOS tubes in it (forget about the Chinese tubes, they are the weakest link IMHO not the trannies), RCA 6L6s, Mullard 7025s and 12AU7s, that alone makes all the difference in the world. Certainly worth everything they are asking for them.

Yep the Chinese tubes are definetely a weak point, I don't know anyone, and I know 3 MingDa owners, who kept the chinese tubes.

I've had the Ming-Da M34-B now for about three weeks. I've done a few mods and changed out tubes. It's now running a quad of the new reissue Mullard EL34's in it and some JJ 12ax7's in the preamp, the driver tubes are still the Chinese 6n1's which I've read many good things about. The weight alone of this thing is all in the back where the transformers are. It has responded fantastically to mods and each time has been worthwhile improvement to the sound quality. It just kept getting better and better. The wiring is indeed meticously laid out inside, which is nice to trace circuits. All components are soldered point to point and there are two large copper wires about 10 gauge size, used as ground bars in it. The capacitors in it are probably it's weak link, they are from several different vendors, ie Rubycon for the large caps, SME and Samsung for the other electrolytics and "Ming Da" coupling caps. My next mod will probably be some Auricaps in their place. The tube sockets are all high quality ceramic ones, however I found them to be mislabled underneath, the key is between pins 7-8, not 1-8. It's wired correctly, but can be a source of confusion at first. The case is polished stainless steel, and it's all of a fairly thick guage steel. I'm actually surprised these amps haven't totally cornered the market yet on tube equipment. Manufacturer's like Levinson, and a couple others actually iimport these and relabel them as their own. So if your looking for an amp to listen to and enjoy, and not have to take out a mortgage to buy, then these are for you, if your concerned what the label says on the front, then go elsewhere. Many people who otherwise could never afford a better amp or some of the vintage amps have a viable alternative now.

Interesting stuff people. Where is the best place to buy a Ming-Da M34-B or a Cayin?

I think there is a Ming-Da dealer now in Wisconsin. I'm not positive though, if you want I'll try to contact him if your interested. Otherwise, you'll have to go through Ebay.

Can you still get the optional fire extinguisher with them ? :)

How many of these do you really know of that have caught fire?

Today's update, received some JAN Sylvania 6dj8's and stuck them in, very nice :)

Was a joke !

But since you asked I know of one of the ming da that actually have. As for some of the other brands such as Golden tube. I had a conversation with a past dealer of theirs yesterday and lets just say if I wouldn't touch one with your money Dan.

Now this is my opinion and its bound to piss off some but so what, its my opinion not yours ! Sure some of these Chinese amps are good deals price wise but remember you get what you pay for.

If Any amp be it made anywhere floats your boat make your own choices. learning from someone telling you its the best is lazy and stupid. Use the two ears ya got and you'll be happy. :)

C'mon Grumpy, quitting being politically correct, tell us how you really feel? You should apply for a job with the state department as an ambassador....then we can fight 5 wars at the same time

Actually I am about the most un American person in the Detroit area. I own 5 vehicles of which 3 are Japanese made.

If These asshole Chevy, Chrysler and ford employees here had their way with me i would have long since been run out of town.

Honestly I care not where its made. With audio gear or anything else it just has to be well made and or sound good. My only prerequisites.

I hear you. Free Trade is great, IF, you have the same standard of living and it is a level playing field. It sure ain't level with the Chinese, Mexico and really not the Japanese either,but it's a worse thing with China, we can't compete with slave labor wages in China. My opinion of course...

I knew you were joking Grump, but I had to ask :)

Isn't Golden Tube US made?

$2.00 a hour may not be much here, but I bet that's middle class in China.

Another great thing about these amps is how versatile they are. Mine can accept KT66, 6L6, 6P3, EL34, 6CA7 output tubes, 6N1, 6DJ8, 6922 drivers, and with a minor modification, 12ax7 preamp tubes.

None of these Chinese amps are a bad deal one way or the other in fact its the exact opposite. What bugs me is the owners of these amp running around acting like there the pinnacle of tube audio. There just not and I HAVE HAD many of them on my bench. I guess if you like a amp that starts over shoots with repeats in the mid range and just magnifies as the frequency climbs then you will love them. Heck everyone I have tested the square waves look like mountain ranges at 15 KHz. Its very easy to make a transformer that will pass the lower frequencies but its a Art to make one pass lower and upper frequencies in a graceful manor. The Chinese transformer companies just haven't mastered this yet or they can't master it and still hit the price point they are targeting.
Its pretty obvious to me look at the top quality vintage gear and where it ends up going on eBay Hong Kong !!!!!!!!! The Chinese audiophile know something that you Chinese amp owner don't hey !

One more thing that you folks may find interesting a good portion of the USA made tube amps today in the somewhat affordable range do this very same thing! I could name some pretty big names but I just ain't going there.

Like Grumpy said you get what you pay for in most cases.

Craig

Another great thing about these amps is how versatile they are. Mine can accept KT66, 6L6, 6P3, EL34, 6CA7 output tubes, 6N1, 6DJ8, 6922 drivers, and with a minor modification, 12ax7 preamp tubes.


There is nothing special about that almost every tube amp ever made can do the same thing. The thing you need to realize is that anything but the tube type the amp was designed to run is "technically" a step backwards.

Craig

I don't recall anybody in this thread calling these the "pinacle" of tube amplifiers. Then again, these are a fraction of what a "pinacle" amp would cost, that's the whole point. There is no way any company can compete with this kind of cost/quality ratio. When something better comes along for $500.0 I'll buy it, until then I'll just enjoy my amp. Anybody who can't afford "pinacle" owes themself a favor and be able to at least start enjoying tube sound on the cheap, then later upgrade to "pinacle" if they are so inclined.

I did however notice just a bit of "forwardness" like you described at first. I quickly remedied that with some metal film caps and new preamp and driver tubes, oh and the NEW Mullards didn't hurt either, these are fantastic reissues, they sound great in this amp. Switching from the 6n2 to 12ax7 probably made the most difference so far, with the swap to the EL34's then strapping them to triode mode. Still may not be close to pinacle but it sounds pretty nice. Like I said, lots of flexibility with these so you can taylor make the sound to your preference. Want a little more bass, put the 6L6's in, want more midrange, then put in the EL34's, it's that simple, with a bias adjust of course, oh another nice feature, individual bias adjustments, no need for quad matched tubes if you can't get them.

Dan,
I don't recall saying anyone did say they were the pinnacle of tube amp world in this thread? If I did please show me where? Don't be so paranoid my post was in general and has nothing to do with you.

Craig

Now measurements as we all know may give an indicator of how an amp will sound and they may not. You could couple a good amp with lousy speakers and it will still sound like crap. If that old LP is scratched to bits and you need a new cartridge on your TT it could measure as perfectly as one could hope for on the test bench but it is still going to sound like crap. Measurements are only one part of the equation. The chinese amp may not measure like (insert the amp of choice here) but if it still sounds good who cares? It should be about how it sounds to your ears. That said, I am listening to a USA made tube amp with a set of old Coral speakers as I write this. It sounds fine. If I hook the Chinese made Kailin up to those same speakers and leave the rest of the setup the same? Still sounds good. Sound should be what matters.

Speaking of transformer winding... Do all these companies even wind their own trannies in China? I know the Kailin has Japanese made trannies in it, and I would hedge my bets they are not the only company sourcing their parts from elsewhere.

None of these Chinese amps are a bad deal one way or the other in fact its the exact opposite. What bugs me is the owners of these amp running around acting like there the pinnacle of tube audio. There just not and I HAVE HAD many of them on my bench. I guess if you like a amp that starts over shoots with repeats in the mid range and just magnifies as the frequency climbs then you will love them. Heck everyone I have tested the square waves look like mountain ranges at 15 KHz. Its very easy to make a transformer that will pass the lower frequencies but its a Art to make one pass lower and upper frequencies in a graceful manor. The Chinese transformer companies just haven't mastered this yet or they can't master it and still hit the price point they are targeting.
Its pretty obvious to me look at the top quality vintage gear and where it ends up going on eBay Hong Kong !!!!!!!!! The Chinese audiophile know something that you Chinese amp owner don't hey !

One more thing that you folks may find interesting a good portion of the USA made tube amps today in the somewhat affordable range do this very same thing! I could name some pretty big names but I just ain't going there.

Like Grumpy said you get what you pay for in most cases.

Craig

This is exactly the reason why my new amp is using trannies from the ST-70 and HF-81's. :)

Mike

These generalizations about the Chinese amps reminds me when the first Toyota's were brought here in the late 60's. Now they are the standard for which all others are measured.

Maybe if these amps were made in Japan I could understand.

Where it's made or what parts are used really are a moot point if the sound quality is accurate and sounds good to your ears. As yrly put it, "Sound should be what matters."

One thing I noticed about the Chinese they excel in copying others, instead of trying some radical new design. Since free trade with them has only been going on for a couple years now, I expect some drastic shifts in where our consumer goods are bought from.

The shift is already in full swing. I remember reading a stat that something like 70% of the goods at Wal Mart are made in China.


Mike

Hey believe what you want but I can test a tube amp on my bench and have at least a basic Idea of what it will sound like on my speakers. You folks need to read the first line of my post very carefully. Then read the second line very carefully. Then read the rest. Picking things out of context is cheesy to say the least.

Craig

I hear you. Free Trade is great, IF, you have the same standard of living and it is a level playing field. It sure ain't level with the Chinese, Mexico and really not the Japanese either,but it's a worse thing with China, we can't compete with slave labor wages in China. My opinion of course...


Amen! Another thing I don't like about these Chinese amps is every darn one of them when I open the bottom cover I read scratched in Chinese "Help Me" :D :naughty:

Talk about cars. I always like the little Geo Metro convertible that was a GM/Suzuki collaboration. They were built at the Camni plant here in Ontario. This weekend I ran across a '92 convert for sale and since I had sworn off buying stereo equip, I bought it. Later in the day I learned that all the Metros were built in the Camni plant EXCEPT the convertible which was built in Japan. At least my heart was in the right place.

I have a couple antique sound labs chinese amps and american
made amps up the wazoo and to tell you the truth I'm pretty
impressed by the 2 chinese ones I have.

My 300B doesn't have the prettiest wiring job inside but it's just
as good as anything else I own and sounds great for my setup! :)

Looks pretty good to me, how much difference did replacing the coupling caps make? That is one thing I wanted to do to mine. My amp is more crowded than yours, so I would imagine more thought would have to be put into the layout. Yours looks easy to access and trace without even a schematic.

What value caps did you use also? Mine has .33uf 630v ones, I'm serious considering going to some .22uf or at least some higher quality .33uf caps.

I haven't messed with different value caps when I replace them.

My 300B has 4 12au7's in it, 2 per side with caps between the 2 12au7's
per side and betwwen the second 12au7's and the 300B's per side.

The values were .22uf 400v first stage and .47uf/.22uf paralell combo 400v
for the second stage and that's what I replaced them with but better ones
also rated at 630v. I have an assortment of caps stashed away because when
I see what looks to be decent prices on some I'll grab a few for future projects.

I like to use pio caps (paper in oil) to me they give a smoother presentation, not
so much a drastic change but nicely noticable. The Jensons seem like nice caps.

If any knows of a general rule of what different value caps will do to the sound I'd
be interested. I'm sure it's different for different curcuits but is there a general rule
as to a lower value tends to roll off blank or a higher value tends to increase blank?

Anybody still have this amp upgraded? There is a capacitor .33uf 630V branded MINDA which I need advised if we can upgrade this to an AURICAP made by audience equivalent of .33uf 600V. Appreciate any reply. Thanks

I put in a .22uf 600v Orange Drop cap. Those are polypropolene and foil, made a nice improvement.

other than the .22uf 600v capacitor, there is a .33uf 630v (4) of them link to the 6L6 tubes. have you also replaced it ? Is it a polypropolene ?

Sorry I should of said I put in 4 .22uf 600v caps in place of the .33uf ones. I also bypassed the electrolytic caps with metal film caps. Put EL34's in and strapped in triode, removed the feedback circuit. Also, rewired the 6v preamp and phase splitter tube sockets for 12v heater tubes, 12A*7 types or ECC99's for phase splitter. But proceed at your own risk.

Many thanks for the info. Did you also change the (2) .22uf 630v to any caps attached to the preamp.

Just an update my Antique sound labs chinese 300B amp!

Allthough we were a little shy on power at the akfest and couldn't crank up the amp
what we were able to test, it then showed the amp flat from beyond 20hz-20khz, not
to bad for some chinese thing if I do say so myself. And it sounds good!

No dips or spikes in the frequency level with great looking traces.

I think the better chinese gear gets a bad rap from other not so good chinese gear!

ASL and Jolida among a few others make some really good products that happen to
be very cost friendly for their quality comparred to others.

Just an update my Antique sound labs chinese 300B amp!

Allthough we were a little shy on power at the akfest and couldn't crank up the amp
what we were able to test, it then showed the amp flat from beyond 20hz-20khz, not
to bad for some chinese thing if I do say so myself. And it sounds good!

No dips or spikes in the frequency level with great looking traces.

I think the better chinese gear gets a bad rap from other not so good chinese gear!

ASL and Jolida among a few others make some really good products that happen to
be very cost friendly for their quality comparred to others.


Kegger,

Bring that amp up here I do not believe its flat 20hz to 20Khz sorry I would have to see it with my own eyes. This has nothing to do with it being Chinese mind you. Another absolute fact is flat 20hz to 20Khz really means nothing in respect to the actual sound of a amplifier it's a nice spec but really just another spec that doesn't give the entire picture, even cheap SS amps that sound tremendously bad to my ear can be flat to 20hz to 20khz. Not a spec worth putting allot of weight into.

Craig

All I can say is craig , echowars tested it and it's down 3 db at like 13hz and down 3db
at about 30k but was flat before 20hz and after 20k plus we tested in between and
found there was a slope that had begun gradually at both ends but still within 1 db
everywhere else from 20hz to 20khz that we tested.

I have a lot of tube amps and the one thing I pay attention to more than anything
else is the EQ of my system and to my ear there are no iregularities with this amp.

It is dead quiet on 97db speakers and sounds great!

I have no problem hauling it over your place next time I come by!

See yu!

I knew you wouldn't have a problem with it this has me curious as hell because if the amp is truly flat its the very first SET amplifier I have ever, seen, heard of and read about that is truly flat. But hey its not my normal topology of choice so it's not like I've tested hundreds on them. I know one I tested produced and sold by XXXX (injest a 4 letter company name) $5K 15 watt SET 300B amp and it was almost laughable. In every test I threw at it.

Craig

That's allright craig I was actually a little surprised I didn't notice a bigger difference
between this and any other amp I've used.

Actually I was expecting and welcoming a big difference to hear what all the fuss was
about on these low power set jobs.

To me the EQ is spot on and the sound just seems smoother to me! CREAMY!
very flowing and easy to listen to. Suprisingly quite dynamic also, just doesn't have
the slam in the bass, but at 8watts your probably not going to get much bass slam!
So that is why I run larger drivers also, for extra bass punch with large solidstate amps powering them.

bump for the tube noob

>I have tested the square waves look like mountain ranges at 15 KHz.

A square wave in 15khz has freq content much beyound 15khz. The test shows it will pass 15khz. I bet the tranny can go up to 20k hz. Have you run a sinewave up to 20khz?