I've always wondered this. If you can trade in any cartridge in practically any shape to get, say, $100 off the price of a new one, what use is that to the merchant? Some of the discounts offered in these types of deals are nothing to sneeze at, you know? I'm not really talking about upgrade programs like you can do with Benz, because that makes a lot more sense.

Let me know if you have any idea how that works.


Dave

Well...Oakely sunglasses that retail for $187.00 cost about FORTY SEVEN CENTS to manufacture (that is a fact, folks). I'm guessing a that there is a similar mark-up for most carts.

:lurk:
I've always wondered about this as well.

In Japan they have a very creative use for highend tradein cartridges, the cartridges are attached to necklaces and sold as "audio" jewlery.

Remember, dealers should not charge you for installation of a cartridge and sometimes these installations can be complex and time consuming. Theoretically, you are paying for the expertise of the retailer to correctly install and align the cartridge -at least that was the understanding 20 years ago. Of course, the skill of any particular retailer varies.

Sometimes -as in the case of a p-mount, installations are simple. But a person buying a p-mount typically won't pay out big bucks. So, while the margin on a less expensive p-mount can be similar, the dealer still makes less.

When I worked at a high-end shop, we were in transition from strict high-end audio to high-end audio and video and few of us really knew how to begin to install a cartridge. When a cartridge was sold by a salesman who didn't know how to install one, he'd have another salesman install it and they would split the sale.

When I was a customer at that store, they used test records and oscilloscopes and all that. Most all other products were installed by the customer or with assistance by the salesman on his off-time -the installation of a cartridge could take a great deal of time and skill. This time took the salesman away from any other potential sales that were not repeat customers willing to wait.

When I worked there, all that installation equipment was all gone -we had to eyeball it. We even worked with a broken dennison alignment tool -the pin that marked the pivot point of the tonearm was missing and we had to use a wrong-sized nail.

j

a returned Grado gold becomes a silver, a red becomes a brown, green becomes blue...etc etc..lol

Well...Oakely sunglasses that retail for $187.00 cost about FORTY SEVEN CENTS to manufacture (that is a fact, folks). I'm guessing a that there is a similar mark-up for most carts.

Remember, you are also paying for reasearch and developement time that the manufacturer has invested into developing the product. I'd have to think the time to design, manufacture a prototype, evaluate it, tweak it, make another prototype.....more than accounts for a more reasonable explanation for margin (notice I didn't use the term "profit") than your sunglasses example.

Factor into this the reality that a lot more Gargoyles sunglasses were sold than Dynavectors and you see even more reason for the margin.

This also accounts for the extremely high prices of the Vidikron/Runco and Dreamvision type DLP/LCD projectors in comparison to the prices you'd see for Infocus, NEC, Optoma and the like -sometimes twice as much or more. Also factor into this the reality that ALL Vidikron/Runco projectors are already based on mass market chasis -so, you are likely paying twice as much money for tweaked electronics and, perhaps, improved optics (also made by a different manufacturer). Vidikron/Runco sells significantly lower numbers of projectors and cannot make profit in volume sales like those other companies -so their projectors really MUST be significantly higher in price compared to the MM projectors. That might also indicate that Vidikron/Runco might not actually be twice as good!

Does Koetsu sell any where close to the volume that AT or Shure do?

j

Remember, you are also paying for reasearch and developement time that the manufacturer has invested into developing the product. I'd have to think the time to design, manufacture a prototype, evaluate it, tweak it, make another prototype.....more than accounts for a more reasonable explanation for margin (notice I didn't use the term "profit") than your sunglasses example.

Factor into this the reality that a lot more Gargoyles sunglasses were sold than Dynavectors and you see even more reason for the margin.

This also accounts for the extremely high prices of the Vidikron/Runco and Dreamvision type DLP/LCD projectors in comparison to the prices you'd see for Infocus, NEC, Optoma and the like -sometimes twice as much or more. Also factor into this the reality that ALL Vidikron/Runco projectors are already based on mass market chasis -so, you are likely paying twice as much money for tweaked electronics and, perhaps, improved optics (also made by a different manufacturer). Vidikron/Runco sells significantly lower numbers of projectors and cannot make profit in volume sales like those other companies -so their projectors really MUST be significantly higher in price compared to the MM projectors. That might also indicate that Vidikron/Runco might not actually be twice as good!

Does Koetsu sell any where close to the volume that AT or Shure do?

j

Really good point, and something I was think about the other day. Seriously, how many Dynavector XV-1s are sold? I'm sure it's a small number. But if anyone wants to buy one to support Dynavector and donate it to me, just send me a PM.:D

We still haven't figured out the answer to my question though.

We still haven't figured out the answer to my question though.


In my experience, a fishbowl was used for "used" cartridges. This was rarely emptied as it presented a "trophy" case of all the cartridges sold by this retailer -represented by old "junked" cartridges (many from manufacturers not sold at the store). From a marketing standpoint, it wouldn't make sense to dump them -you want your customers to see that you've been selling and installing a lot of them. Heck, why have the fishbowl in the first place.

In the end, these were typically junk and never used again -though the first turntable I bought was off the used shelf at this store (JVC QL-A2) and I think the salesman fished a usable cart out of the fishbowl to get me by until I could afford my Dynavector 10x4.

As far as a trade in program for MC carts, I don't know that they re-use them, I think this is simply a way for a manufacturer to get repeat business. And it's why I've kept my old 10x4 22 years after I, to my utter shame :puke:, accidentally bent the cantilever when I was packing up my system to move it to my dorm room for my first year of college. I hope to aquire another one at some point and will use this to get a discount on it.

j

Oh no! Sorry to hear that, because I'm a 10X5 owner and it's a wonderful, albeit expensive, cartridge. Fishbowl, eh?

I wouldn't be surprised if some of them were recycled with replacement stylii by less-than-scrupulous retailers.

I also would not be surprised to see that some of these went back to the mfg that supplied the retailer to use in R&D. They love to cut stuff apart to see how others are doing it. You get the sale and you get the competitions part to look at without buying from them? Can't all be bad? Or ...

Than JICO buys them for pennies on the yen to get bodies to check against their production runs?

My high end store has tons of "junk" carts in boxes of screws, headshells, 45 adapters, etc...sitting in their back room (they've been in business for over 50 years and have amassed tons of crap). All of them were taken off old trade-in turntables, wherupon they would install a fresh cartridge, or none at all when they would recondition the table for sale (they don't sell used tables anymore):tears:

Almost all the cartridges they have are missin the stylus as they've been floating in junk boxes for over 20 years. As I have developed a relationship with the owners, they have let me rummage through these boxes looking for small parts. They have GIVEN me 3 Shure M7d's, a Pickering XV-15, a Pickeing v-15, and Shure V15-III. I have replaced the stlyi on all but the Shure V15 and all work perfectly (and sound fantastic).

Doesn't hurt to make freinds with the people who take in these "junk" catridges. ;)

James R.

I've always wondered this. If you can trade in any cartridge in practically any shape to get, say, $100 off the price of a new one, what use is that to the merchant? Some of the discounts offered in these types of deals are nothing to sneeze at, you know? I'm not really talking about upgrade programs like you can do with Benz, because that makes a lot more sense.

Let me know if you have any idea how that works.


Dave

Oh, and to answer you question (as I really didn't in my last rambling), the incentive is to get you into the store and get your money. It's the same as car dealers offering you $X amount for your trade-in regardless of if it's driven or towed in....their mark-up is enough to cover the difference, and they junk the car (or auction it at pennies on the dollar) just to get you in the door.

James R.

Gosh, I remember those fishbowl things! They really were goldfish bowls just like I had when I was a kid. I have to confess being very tempted many times to reach in and grab a few orphaned cartridges. And there always seemed to be fifty or more in the bowl too, all kinds of pretty colors and unusual shapes too. Made me feel like a kid in a candy store.

I wish people would give them to me! I would absolutely love to have a curio cabinet full of spent cartridges!

Evan

I wish people would give them to me! I would absolutely love to have a curio cabinet full of spent cartridges!

Evan

I got a small, clear, acrylic box at an electronics store that's meant for holding small screws, or electrical parts. There are about 20 small cubbies, each the right size to hold a phono cartridge. All of the "junk cartridges" I got reside in that box in their own little compartments until I get new needles for them (almost all have them now) or until they get rotated onto a turntable...that is my little cuiro box...it's fun just to look at them...like a matchbox collector car box.:yes:

James R.

Same reason you can get a $1000 trade in on a car that does not run towards a new car. It gets them the sale, makes you feel like you got a deal. It is all covered by the mark up.

I got a small, clear, acrylic box at an electronics store that's meant for holding small screws, or electrical parts. There are about 20 small cubbies, each the right size to hold a phono cartridge. All of the "junk cartridges" I got reside in that box in their own little compartments until I get new needles for them (almost all have them now) or until they get rotated onto a turntable...that is my little cuiro box...it's fun just to look at them...like a matchbox collector car box.:yes:

James R.

James, I would probabally buy a coffee table with a glass top and drawer inside to display that stuff.

I am a total nerd though.

Evan

I am a total nerd though.Careful there, Evan... I have a feeling that I... I mean a few members here... might resemble that remark. :nerd:


:D

The smiliey with the glasses rules! I need to start using those more often!

*NERDS UNITE*

haha.

Evan

Oh, and to answer you question (as I really didn't in my last rambling), the incentive is to get you into the store and get your money. It's the same as car dealers offering you $X amount for your trade-in regardless of if it's driven or towed in....their mark-up is enough to cover the difference, and they junk the car (or auction it at pennies on the dollar) just to get you in the door.

James R.

As someone in sales I suspected this was probably the case. And it works, because when I'm ready to buy a Clearaudio Maestro I'm going to the seller that offers the most money off, obviously. Thanks for clearing that up.

Serves several purposes:


Customer gets a discount off normal price. (saves $$)
An order is generated! (Revenue for dealer $$)
New product is sold! (Good for the manufacture)
Traded in item is no longer available on street. (Good for dealer and manufacture)
Less supply on street drives new demand! (I guess kinda bad for consumer)


What happens to the old carts? Hmmm.. My guess is they're probably destined for a crushing experience :(