I have a question for you guys about a dispute I’m having with a buyer. I’m hoping I can get some advice on how to handle this matter. I’ll start at the beginning. If I'm breaking the rules of this forum I'm sorry and please feel free to delete my post but I've tried to leave out anything that may name someone else.

About a month (Feb, 24…) ago one of my auctions ended for a woofer driver. The person paid for it and asked for it to be sent via parcel post from California to Florida. This would not have been my first choice for shipping but it’s what he wanted. So I packed the item extremely well (Double boxing, 1” foam all around and tons of packing paper encasing the entire speaker so that it could not move. I also wrapped the driver tightly in pallet wrap about twenty times so that the magnet would not shift and nothing could touch the cone…) and sent it off to him. I of course tested it one last time before I packed it. Also this was in a set of speakers that I had used numerous times and I KNOW it worked perfectly not to mention the cosmetics were flawless.
So here’s what happened. About a week goes by after the auction ends and I hear nothing from the guy. I asked him when I sent the item to let me know when it arrives. I wait till about a week and a half and email him asking if he got it and I get no reply I wait a couple of more days and try again and he writes back saying it has not come yet. I wait a couple of more days and try again and he tells me that he really doesn’t know if it has arrived or not because he has been out on a business trip for the past week and a half. So I figure, Okay… He’ll get back to me when he returns.
Fast forward to about a week ago when I see he has left me positive feedback (My feed back rating is at 105 with all +++ and his is at 54 with all +++…). So I figure everything is good and the deal has been done and everyone is happy so I left some good feedback too. Now almost a week later he sends me a message stating that the speaker didn’t work. Here’s the dialog.

Him:
Dear sir,

this is not the first transaction we make togeter, but unfortunately this time you sent me a NOT working (name of speaker deleted). The cone is totally blocked in the magnet gap and is not moving at all. It is clear that the unit was abused and the bobin is burned and sticking inside the magnet gap.I gave you a positive feedback anyhow because I hope we can resolve this issue in between me and you.
I only see a couple of options:
1. I'll return the unit to you and you refund me the price paid.
2. I'll return you the defective unit and you send me a fully functional one.



My reply:
Sorry but that speaker worked perfectly when I sent it to you. THIS I AM SURE OF. I have witnesses who watched me try it out before I packed it. The bottom line is. I will not send you a refund or a new speaker. It would be different if I wasn't absolutely sure that it worked... But I know that speaker was in perfect condition both cosmetically and functionally. By the way, why would you have given me feedback without even trying it first? That just makes no sense.

What do you guys think I should do in this situation. He has bought one thing from me before but I have no idea what it was. Don’t you think it was strange that he would have it sent parcel post and then “supposedly” be gone for a couple of weeks. Also why would he give me positive feedback after three plus weeks without having tried the speaker first? How if the speaker was damaged (which it wasn’t…) could he know that voice coil is burned and sticking inside without taking off the dust cap and inspecting it? I know that this guy is lying and trying to give me a speaker that he damaged but what do I do?

Any of your help and advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Greg

Sounds like a scammer..I wouldn't do anything.Just blowoff his correspondance with the delete key.Let him do whatever.As long as your ducks are all in a row.

Or tell him that you have the speaker marked and if he would like to return it, you will refund his money once you identified it was the one you sent. See if he responds to that.

also check to see if he bought the same speaker from another and is trying to scam you

I believe if he left positive feedback technically the deal is done and he knows it.

That is why he is probably not pursuing it with paypal or eBay.

You can confirm with paypal or eBay to make sure it's a done deal if you like. But if he tries to give you a followup negative feedback then I would check with eBay to explain what happened and have it removed.

Your reply to the Buyer was perfect. Exactly as you have done. That you don't feel you are responsible for the subsequent use of the speaker.and that you have a witness and that the damage claimed could not have been caused previously or by shipping.

Sounds like a scammer..I wouldn't do anything.Just blowoff his correspondance with the delete key.Let him do whatever.As long as your ducks are all in a row.

Thanks, but that's my question. What do I do to make SURE all my ducks are in a row. Is there any special action I should be taking?
:dunno:

Keep all correspondence. And you already seem to have a summary of dates and journal of the transaction. So I think you have all your ducks quacking.

The only option for the buyer is to open a dispute with eBay or Paypal which to me is unlikely since he already gave positive feedback.

I assume with parcel post there was no insurance but even insurance would probably cover just shipping damages not a something burned like he described. And even if you did guarantee anything in your auction, I think his positive feedback trumps all those.

Thanks, but that's my question. What do I do to make SURE all my ducks are in a row. Is there any special action I should be taking?
:dunno:
I'm going through similar crap with a South Korean buyer, receives the items, post + feedback, brags about my packing, says he likes me then waits 2 weeks to file a PayPal dispute that he never received it. Depending on how PayPal settles this, it might be the end of PayPal for any shipments that I can't track. :no:

I'd block him as a bidder in your eBay profile, he'll probably mess with future auctions just to pi$$ you off!! :nono:

He could still file a "not as described" dispute. If he does, YOU should escalate it to a claim right away. Stand your ground, you will win. Do not offer to have him send it back. It will probably be the same woofer, after he hooked it up to his 1000 watt (50% distortion) car amplifier.
In the future state "fully guaranteed against anything EXCEPT voice coil burnout", show an ohmmeter hooked up, and explain you can not control improper use, hell the manufacturer does that!

He could still file a "not as described" dispute. If he does, YOU should escalate it to a claim right away. Stand your ground, you will win. Do not offer to have him send it back. It will probably be the same woofer, after he hooked it up to his 1000 watt (50% distortion) car amplifier.
In the future state "fully guaranteed against anything EXCEPT voice coil burnout", show an ohmmeter hooked up, and explain you can not control improper use, hell the manufacturer does that!


How do I "escalate it to a claim"? I've checked on that site to try and figure out how to report this but as far as I can tell a seller can only report payment not received.

This is a cultural issue I see arising more and more frequently, the notion that negotiation does not stop at the sale.

Beat me up over this but in my trade as a contractor this is becoming a recurrant issue. As a New Englander trading with my ken the operative principal has always been - charge me whatever you think is fair, and I charge in the same spirit. Other folks have the idea the sales negotiation never stops. I have a big problem with that.

Of course as others have alluded to, this could be simple fraud.

Blow him off and preserve the documentation.

fcc

He would escalate it to a claim, not you.

He would escalate it to a claim, not you.

Not true FD,
If he files with PayPal it will be a "dispute", at this point both parties are to try work it out between them selfs. At this point you can offer an explanation, or a full or partial refund. EITHER party can escalate into a "claim", throwing the final decision into PayPal's hand. In over 1000 transactions, I have done this 3 times, and prevailed in all 3.

Not true FD,
If he files with PayPal it will be a "dispute", at this point both parties are to try work it out between them selfs. At this point you can offer an explanation, or a full or partial refund. EITHER party can escalate into a "claim", throwing the final decision into PayPal's hand. In over 1000 transactions, I have done this 3 times, and prevailed in all 3.

So do you think I should file a dispute with pay pal?

You have nothing to dispute at this point. He paid, you shipped, he received. If there is a dispute to be filed, it's up to him to file it, and it's up to you to defend against it.

So do you think I should file a dispute with pay pal?

No, not unless he does anything. If he files a "dispute" you will have options, one of which will be to escalate to a "claim". At that point, based on what you have stated, I would escalate it. After choosing that option you can explain your side, the final decision will be by PayPal's. I believe that if you feel as strongly as you sound, it's your only choice, and by being the one to escalate it, it shows you are confident about it. BTW, PayPal will hold the funds until resolved (at the dispute level) , so if you have withdrawn the funds, they will deduct it from your related bank act.

It's sucks when it comes to this and hopefully it wont, I have had more "issues" then the 3 I mentioned, most of which were worked out happily WAY before any of this had to happen!

I just checked pay pal and I think FD is right. Only the buyer can file a dispute as far as I can tell. I also just thought of something else. When this sale was done it was right during the time that ebay was supposed to switch over to their new feedback policy. I don't think that he could have known that it would take a couple of months to go into effect. I sure didn't. Do you think this might have had something to do with it? It would have made it much easier for him to scam me had the new changes been in place. It's possible he bought this with the intention of scamming me and then found out it wasn't going to be as easy as he thought.:scratch2:

I just checked pay pal and I think FD is right. Only the buyer can file a dispute as far as I can tell. I also just thought of something else. When this sale was done it was right during the time that ebay was supposed to switch over to their new feedback policy. I don't think that he could have known that it would take a couple of months to go into effect. I sure didn't. Do you think this might have had something to do with it? It would have made it much easier for him to scam me had the new changes been in place. It's possible he bought this with the intention of scamming me and then found out it wasn't going to be as easy as he thought.:scratch2:

One more time: Only the buyer can file a "dispute" at which point you can decide what to do. Options include a full or partial refund. If EITHER party feels it can't be worked out EITHER party can escalate into a "claim" at which point PayPal makes the final decision!

I was thinking about "dispute" when I made my first post. I've had a total of four disputes which I escalated to claims, all as the buyer, and I also prevailed in all of mine.

Thanks himm... By the way, do they let you know before they pull money out of your bank acct. or do they just do it.

Oops... Sorry Himm. I just checked what you said before and I see they withdraw funds at the dispute level.

just tell him your cousing vito is in the area for a hit and will be glad to stop by and deal with him. should end it all then.

I would stop worrying about this. Let him take the next step.

He left positive feedback.

When you leave feedback you are warned you can't change it. It's recommended not leaving positive feedback unless you are satisfied. I repeat - he left positive feedback. You are in the catbird seat.

He only has a limited time to file a dispute before it all times out and he forfeits any claims rights. eBay and Paypal would wonder why they took so long to contact you too after leaving positive feedback.

if you have withdrawn the funds, they will deduct it from your related bank act

Has PayPal actually done this to you? My understanding is, this is against federal banking law, which states that ACH transactions must be initiated by the account holder.

Thankfully the transaction was completely in the US. As long as he is a confirmed buyer you should be somewhat protected against a chargeback, so long as you have delivery confirmation records on the shipment.

Paypal will withhold funds you received for many types of claims (until the claim is resolved). If the claim is a chargeback (a complaint through a credit card company that was the source of funds for the Paypal payment) then by law Paypal must return the funds to the credit card company until the dispute is resolved. If Paypal needs to return the money, you can be sure they'll look to get it back from you.

And if Paypal thinks you or your sales are credit risks (you are a newbie, or are selling items that are frequently counterfeited) they can hold a portion of your receipts for up to 180 days. Its all in the fine print of their terms and conditions, that you agree to when you sign up.

When Paypal takes money back, the fund transfer is always done at the same time as an e-mail they send out to you explaining their action. They will try first to withdraw the funds from your Paypal account. If that doesn't work they will next attempt to withdraw it from the bank account that backs your Paypal account. This is also part of their terms and conditions.

People make the mistake of thinking that once funds are added into their Paypal account the money is theirs. Unfortunately this is not quite true, as claims can be made against those funds for a long period of time, often as long as 180 days. (to quote Yogi Berra, "it ain't over till its over".)

As an aside, I always take extra high resolution photos of items I sell (beyond what is shown in the auction). These include every identifying feature and number on the item. Since sharpies now come in all colors, I add two subtle identification marks, and photograph each. If a buyer claims a problem, I can immediately send the photo of one of the marks to Paypal with the claim that the buyer is trying to substitute his bad unit for the good one I shipped. I keep the second in case someone at Paypal accidentally shows the first mark to the buyer. Its not perfect, but its quick and gives me extra ammunition to fight fraudulent claims against me.

Even after you've transferred your paypal balance to your bank account, it's not safe until the transfer is complete. I've had transfers canceled before they were complete. I've never had Paypal try to take money directly from my account.

So far, I've never lost more than some shipping costs on a paypal dispute. I've always either been able to keep the money, or received the item back. One of those cases was a credit card charge back. It took some time, but Paypal eventually returned the money to me. In one or two cases, as a buyer, I've received a refund and kept the item. This was when an item was not as described, and the seller went missing.

The only other thing I might add is that if you believe you are being shaken down, to let eBay know this is a potential fraud.

At least that might alert them if this person has a pattern of ordering and making false claims in the future, they will have a record of your concern.

eBay won't let you know what actions they take, because that is considered private but that might at least alert them.

If they are concerned with fraud by sellers, they should be just as concerned about fraud by buyers.

The one thing I think of when it is said the voice coil is frozen in place is did the magnet shift due to rough handling. If that is the case, then the party responsible for shipping it properly...insurance, if packed correctly, would be liable, in my opinion. This means the driver needs to make the return trip for evaluation or be evaluated by a trusted AK member in the buyer's area. Both of these are up to the buyer and if he does not make the move, you should be done with this sale.

This post has nothing to do with the ins and outs of a paypal/ebay resolution, others know that stuff, I don't.

Here’s an update as to whats going on… Here’s the email I had waiting for me when I got home from work to day and my reply to it.

Him:
Dear Sir,

as mentioned I did give you a positive because I thought we could resolve this in a friendly way, and because I only checked out now its defective functionality.
If you do not accept immediate refund or substitution I will be very glad to introduce you to my lawyers.


Me:

So let me get this straight. You waited a month to give me feedback and within that time you didn't have a chance to check the speaker first? Then when you do give me feedback it's positive? By the way, which one is it? Did you only give me positive feed back because you thought we could resolve this in a freindly way?... Or because you only checked it out now and it's defective functionally? One more thing... You stated in your last email that the cone was stuck and that also the voice coil was burned out. First of all, these are two completely different problems that don’t really happen together. When a voice coil burns out it will rub against the magnet structure but it will not freeze it completely. Also, how can you tell the voice coil is burned out and not something else without taking off the dustcap and inspecting it first? Unless of course you burned it out yourself. The bottom line is, you do whatever you feel you have to do. I will not give you a refund because I know that the statements you are making are false and untrue. I'll be waiting to hear from your laywers.


This is getting interesting….

This is sounding more like a scam if not outright extortion.

How much was the total cost of item + shipping? Seems hardly worth hiring lawyers for unless you are talking in hundreds or thousands of dollars.

Why aren't they going through eBay or Paypal? Maybe because he knows he can't make a case with them? I would have invited him to file a dispute and have him save lawyer fees.

Both eBay and Paypal have contact us email. You may want to alert them to this for your own peace of mind. It may take them several days to respond though.

*****

Below are eBay notes on feedback. It's expected feedback be left as a sign the transaction is complete and satisfactory.

http://pages.ebay.com/help/feedback/questions/leaving-feedback.html

Leaving Feedback is voluntary; however, eBay encourages all members to leave Feedback after each transaction is complete.

Note: Remember that any Feedback you leave is public and permanent, so think carefully before leaving Feedback. Make sure that comments are fair and factual. If there is a dispute, try to resolve the differences before leaving Feedback.

Once the buyer leaves positive feedback it weakens their case for any subsequent disputes.
They are saying in WRITING it was received to their "positive" satisfaction. The buyer is responsible for the feedback to be "fair and factual." Which means buyer is responsible for checking the product before leaving positive feedback.

So unless the buyer lied or carelessly left the positive feedback, then any logical review would have to consider the product was damaged after the positive feedback.

It makes no sense to leave positive feedback first and then think they could settle with the seller as the buyer claims. He's basically saying his feedback was not factual. The timing makes no sense.

Did he mention anything about condition in his feedback?

Another suggestion.

Try eBays the Live Help link in the upper right top of the home page.

His exact feedback to me was "PERFECT! very good seller.". The total for the item was $133.00 with shipping. I have already written ebay about this and am waiting to hear a reply from them. I told them in the email that I want it on file that I contacted them about this. The strange thing is that when I checked out the items this guys been buying, probably half of his feedback is from the last two months for buying vintage speakers and parts from a very famous west coast speaker company. I don't want to say the name but I'm sure you can guess what it is. The driver I sold him is made by this company also. This guy has been a member since 2006. Why has he made nearly half of his 54 transactions within the last two months for nearly all speaker products from this company? I am waiting to see what his next move is. Whatever it is it should be interesting. This guy seems to be sticking his foot further in his mouth everytime he speaks.

We now return to our regularly scheduled programming.:D

As a request, let's please make sure that the discussion includes no details of the transaction that might allow the other party to be identified. The more "generic" the discussion, the better. Minimize the specifics.

In order for this thread to be as helpful to as many members as possible, it should be about how to generally handle any eBay/Paypal dispute, not necessarily how to handle this dispute.

I realize that's a fine line to walk, but it's safer that way.

Oh, and thanks for keeping this thread tactful, diplomatic, and thread-crap-free!

Tia,
Clay

Here’s the latest in this saga in case anyone’s interested. I’ve contacted ebay (NOT a big help…) and pay pal about the matter. Pay pal basically told me that unless he can prove to them that he received a defective driver he will not win the dispute. Basically, they told me that it looked like all the evidence is leaning in my favor. Anyway here’s the latest dialog from him today. By the way these are exactly as he’s written them. I’m just cutting and pasting.

Him:
it will be an easy job for my lawyers, they have your ad on ebay, stating that the driver is perfectly functional and the defective unit arrived from you.
Unless you love paying for a functional unit plus all lawyer expenses, mine and yours, which could be easily over 3-4 thousands, I rather think you should refund or send a functional unit immediately.
This is your last chance of solving this in a friendly way. Think twice before making your final decision.

Thanks and Best Regards

Me:
First of all... Anything under $500.00 is an issue for small claims court which does not require lawyers. Second of all, I've said all I have to say to you on this matter. The driver I sent you was working PERFECTLY! I know this because I pulled it out of a pair of 4311 speakers that I had been using for some time before you purchased this. Not to mention that I tried it out while two of my friends were at my house right before I packed it. Believe me, I know when a speaker is not working correctly. If you want to dispute it with pay pal be my guest as I have already contacted them on this matter. I have also contacted ebay and it is on their files too.
Filing with pay pal is what you’re supposed to do when you have a problem with something on ebay. They will go over all the facts and make the decision. Until you are ready to go through the correct procedures, I don't want to hear from you again.




Once again... This should be interesting.:scratch2:

I'm glad you got a response from Paypal.

Excellent. :thmbsp:

Greg, at this point I would probably stop responding to any of his messages. I assume you've saved all of his threats if you and he haven't been communicating solely through eBay messaging. If he wants to continue with this, let him file a dispute. Just tell him "I'm done with you.".

Greg, at this point I would probably stop responding to any of his messages. I assume you've saved all of his threats if you and he haven't been communicating solely through eBay messaging. If he wants to continue with this, let him file a dispute. Just tell him "I'm done with you.".


That's what I did and that's what I plan on doing. Until he goes about this the proper way I'm done with him.

Thanks for the advice guys. I'll keep y'all updated if something major happens just in case this sort of thing is done to someone else.
Greg

Well, that loser in South Korea that posted + feedback and bragged about my packing just won his nonreceipt case with PayPal, I'm DONE with International PayPal eBay transactions, when my current auctions are done, I'll relist with no more International PayPal acceptance. I have perfect feedback for 9 years and this clown pulls the classic nonreceipt scam, PayPal told me where to stick the postal receipt I presented, delivery confirmation or nothing, pretty hard when you charge $4 S&H!! In a slight rage I sent the buyer a nasty e-mail and asked him how he can live with himself after scamming people. Sellers beware, without tracking there's no recourse with PayPal, what a scam!! :no: :nono:

After careful consideration of the evidence provided in the case detailed
below, we have completed our investigation and decided in favor of the
buyer. Under terms of our User Agreement, we have debited the following
amount from your PayPal account as a refund to the buyer: $9.00 USD

If you have proof of shipment information that shows that this item was
delivered, you may appeal this decision. To do so, log into your PayPal
account, click the Resolution Center link at the top of the page, and then
click the Appeal button next to the case.

I notified eBay regarding what the bidder did to me, received the items and files a falso non-receipt claim with PayPal, they are now monitoring all of his activity, you never know, if he pulls this stunt again I might get my money back, luckily it was a small amount. OK, I lost the light bulbs, shipping container, time, shipping costs, auction and PayPal fees, what a drag!! Seller beware!! :nono:

Final reminder, gentlemen. This thread is about advice regarding handling Paypal disputes.

If you are about to hit the "Submit" button, I suggest you re-read your post to make sure it complies before you send it.