I have a AR XA turntable with original tonearm. I already have a post titled "Cartridge recommendations for AR XA" with some very helpful comments. I've been able to narrow my choices down to two cartridges . . . the Shure M97xE and Grado Black.

Here's my question. If I buy a Grado Black and try it out and decide I don't like it, would anyone be willing to buy it from me?

If I do this, I plan to buy the cart by Sat and try it out. I know carts take a while to break in, but I assume I'll at least get an idea if I like it. I have the obvious concerns of hum, and even sound characteristics on the Grado.

I've come to the point that I think I need to try it out. I can buy locally for $40, so with tax, I'm not even at $45, and considering I can't find any online for less than $60. I figure I can't loose.

Any thoughts?

If you can still buy a Black for $40, do so. It's a great cart at that price. At $60, it begins to run into a lot of competition.

There's a couple things I don't like about my Grado Black. One is how the stylus assembly goes on/off the cartridge. Two is the lack of a stylus guard. Other than that, it's a decent cartridge that I'm happy with.

I bought mine at $40 a couple years ago. If I had to pay $60 for it, there are several others that start to appear in or just slightly above that price range, whereas I probably would not get one again.

Do it. I think Grado just increased their prices and $40 sounds like a deal. You may be able to recoup most or all of your expense if you don't like it. Also having the experience of comparing the two on your table is likely more valuable than any opinion you might gather from someone else (not that those have no value). That said, I'd be curious as to your impressions. I have a Grado Blue on a Dual 1246 (no hum) and the M97xE still breaking in on a Pioneer. You can check the grado hum database thread for your setup. Let us know what you experience.

A Grado Black for $40 is worth every penny of it, I bought one several years ago for about that price, and to this day it is the first cart to go on any table that comes through my door, it is a great cart for testing and tuning. :thmbsp:

Hey guys,

If I buy the Grado, I'll do this Saturday. I can get an IXOS carbon fiber brush for $15 at the same time. If I had the money, I'd get several Grado's for that price.

I'll let you guys know what I end up doing.

Jonesy09 . . . funny :D I hear you chanting in my head "do it, do it, do it" like you're eggin' me on :scratch2:

If I can swing it, I may buy two Grado's. Is it wrong of me to do, and sell for $50, still a $10 discount?

Yeah well, if you're looking for people to stop you from buying equipment you came to the wrong place :tongue:

Now go forth and binge :rockon:

Okay, I'm doing it!!!

I'm getting the Grado Black tomorrow, with an IXOS carbon fiber brush.

I'll let you guys know how I like.

I did find (today) an online store with M97xE carts on sale for about $56-58 dollars . . . in case anyone is interested. No gain on my part.

The sound is pretty different between the two. If I had to have only one, I'd get the M97eX. But since they are so close in price for you, why not get both instead of another Black? You can keep both and interchange for albums that need their characteristics :)

OBTW - the break-in times for both are measured in 10's of hours (actual running time), not one or two.

Trust me, I thought of that. I know there is the break in period. I may just realize up front that the Grado is not even close to what I want. I think it should be enjoyable to listen to at the onset, gradually getting better.

Maybe even consider a Green for a few bucks more. I have Black, Green, & M97XE. I'm listening to the Black right now, can't go wrong with any of them really. :scratch2:

Nice thing about Grado's is that if you get tired of the black stylus, you can snap in a gold with no issues. You can do this with some other manufacturers but Grado does this very easily.

Trust me, I thought of that. I know there is the break in period. I may just realize up front that the Grado is not even close to what I want. I think it should be enjoyable to listen to at the onset, gradually getting better.

Just remember whatever you get must be given time - don't rush to judgment as is so tempting to do. The likely reaction is not good when you've just spend money on a cartridge, carefully set it up, and then don't like what you hear, but it will get better. And remember what I said about VTA and Grado. Make sure you have the VTA right (you'll have to play around), and if there are vocal sibilants it either needs to be adjusted, or your record is damaged.

OK, here's where my ignorance rears it's head :) What is sibilance?

If I think I have trouble with the VTA, and need help, can any of you point me in the right direction? I plan to install the cart tomorrow when I get home . . . hopefully around the dinner hour.

So the body style on the Grado will accept any stylus in the Prestige series?? Cool.

OK, here's where my ignorance rears it's head :) What is sibilance?

If I think I have trouble with the VTA, and need help, can any of you point me in the right direction? I plan to install the cart tomorrow when I get home . . . hopefully around the dinner hour.

So the body style on the Grado will accept any stylus in the Prestige series?? Cool.

Hey I don't know if anyone can confirm this, but I don't think the styli are interchangeable within the Prestige series. My understanding is that different models use a different suspension, etc, but I'm not positive about this.

By sibilance I mean those harsh "S" sounds that you hear in vocals with damaged records, a poor or damaged stylus, or improper VTA setting. If you haven't heard it you likely will at some point, and you'll know what I mean. It's not good.

Based on my knowledge and use of older Grado's, the body's change very little (until you get to the MC cartridges) but the big difference is the stylus. So I have put in styli from a higher end cartridge into a lower end cartridge and it worked quite well. It does mean that the tracking weight might change to match the newer stylus, but that's minor.

I'm fairly certain that Grado kept the body design (they look alot like my old FC+ and F3E cartridges) and I'm pretty certain that one can do this with their Prestige line.

It will be very noticable with the "essses".

Had a Black did not care for it in the least my Shure is so far superior imo

Axcel = what turntable did you put it on?

I have a GF3 , a GT and Joseph Grado Signature. Grado told me the GF3 was a blue and mount the blue stylus which I did and it sounds fine. I have a new black stylus for the GT, but want to use it to test the Signature first (it's used).

When I asked Grado which stylus to install in the Signature, they said all stylus will work. So I'm kind of believing the styli interchange is a real probability. I'm waiting for Mr Lin to wear out the one on his Silver so I can talk him into buying a Gold stylus as a test upgrade :)

I have a GF3 , a GT and Joseph Grado Signature. Grado told me the GF3 was a blue and mount the blue stylus which I did and it sounds fine. I have a new black stylus for the GT, but want to use it to test the Signature first (it's used).

When I asked Grado which stylus to install in the Signature, they said all stylus will work. So I'm kind of believing the styli interchange is a real probability. I'm waiting for Mr Lin to wear out the one on his Silver so I can talk him into buying a Gold stylus as a test upgrade :)

I'm skeptical about the way the Prestige Series models are rated, and that's largely why I ended up buying a Silver. Maybe the Gold is better than the Silver, and the Green is better than the Black, but I don't know. Remember the Gold and Silver are the same, supposedly the Gold is selected from the best 5% of the Silver.

Despite my skepticism I won't discount the possibility of buying a Gold stylus in the future.

Axcel = what turntable did you put it on?

had it on a Technics Sl 1600 MKII just found the freq response very flat even after 20 hrs

Just remember whatever you get must be given time - don't rush to judgment as is so tempting to do. The likely reaction is not good when you've just spend money on a cartridge, carefully set it up, and then don't like what you hear, but it will get better. And remember what I said about VTA and Grado. Make sure you have the VTA right (you'll have to play around), and if there are vocal sibilants it either needs to be adjusted, or your record is damaged.

Very good point, Mr. Lin. At first I didn't like my AT 440 MLa, now I love it.

Is the Grado Black close to a Blue, either just above or below in the line? I have a Blue that's a very nice, mellow cart....

On the other hand, my brother had an AR-XB in '75 that came with a Shure M91ED, and that was a great sounding combo. I don't think you can go wrong either way.

Well, I have the Grado Black now, but can't get it on the headshell properly. The instructions don't help, other than telling you what wire goes where and how to change the stylus. Neither help me.

The two screws and two nuts that come with the cart, will fit, but the threads are different, so I think I'll use the original screws, which are longer. I have shims that came with the Shure (I think), but they are too wide for the headshell. I used metal snips to cut one down, but it's the same depth as the thread posts in the headshell. Doesn't make any sense to me.

I need to continue looking for something to show me how to get this done. I did have the cart on there, but part of the cart body was almost touching the record surface when I put it down.

I would appreciate any help. :tears:

All Grados need to be set-up to run "flat" to start with. You can tune the final tracking angle if need be to get around some minor issues like excessive sibilance or to improve tracking, but you need to start out flat. That means the top (and bottom) of the cartridge body need to be parallel to the record playing surface.

wow, that'll be cutting it close. I'll try that and take a picture to post.

do you know what they suggest that?

wow, that'll be cutting it close. I'll try that and take a picture to post.


It shouldn't be close at all, unless your arm is too low in its pivot or your platter is too high. How thick is your platter mat, and how much space is there between the bottom of your platter and the top deck with a record on the platter?

the platter is about 1/16", maybe another 1/64" more.

platter mat is the original foam that is 3/16" thick. I plan on getting a felt mat down the road.

I have the spindle about has high as it can be without excessive wobble.

And after all that the Grado is not parallel on the bottom. It angles backward, suggesting a shim needs to go at the front end of the headshell.

I also don' have enough spacers to use the original screws, and I don't want to cut them, in case I want to put the M55E back on and just get a new stylus . . . so I need to find new screws that match, but are short, or find more spacers.

The screws are 1/2". The mounting plastic base on the cart is 1/8" and the mounting holes probably aren't even an 1/" deep. So I'd have to use 1/4" worth of spacers.

platter mat is the original foam that is 3/16" thick. I plan on getting a felt mat down the road.

I have the spindle about has high as it can be without excessive wobble.

And after all that the Grado is not parallel on the bottom. It angles backward, suggesting a shim needs to go at the front end of the headshell.



Something about your table's arm/platter relationship sounds off. Maybe you can shoot a picture of it from the side with the arm in play?

I'll do that.

I did buy some steel machine head screws from Radio Shack in various lengths that look like they'll do the job. I assume they are steel, but they look the same type as the screws that came with the Grado.

Any reason I shouldn't use those?

http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/7084/img5489vc2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/3205/img5489yf4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/3412/img5492tj8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

how's this for starters. I put the Shure M55E back on. The Grado when installed the same was had about 1/16" for the lowest part of the bottom of the cart, above the LP. Any warp and it would bottom out.

Because we are talking about an original AR-XA, I HIGHLY recomend the M97xE over the GRADO. As the XA actually was offored for some time with the M91ED, no doubt the M97xE will be GREAT on this table.

I ran a V-15 III on my XB for some time and loved it!

Joey

Grado's typically run about 1/16" above the record surface. Look and see how far that cantilever projects from the body when it's in you hand? You should be at about 80% of that distance when loaded with the vertical tracking force set at 1.5 grams or so.

If you have warped records that will bottom a cartridge, that is a different issue. I don't see that my M97eX runs any higher off the record surface. Maybe some older ceramic carts did, but in the modern world they all run pretty close. I'm sure they do that so there is no lost motion (flexing) between the stylus tracing the groove and the magnets and wiring that generate the signal?

Here's some pics to show the Grado in place. Sounds really good, and NO HUM. :D If it will actually sound better after 10-20 hours, I should be very happy.

I also bought the Shure M97xE online today for $60 (included shipping). I'm going to find an extra headshell, anyone have one to sell?????

Look at these and tell me if it looks right.

http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/4936/img5497ir0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/7672/img5498nv2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Yep, it looks good. You'd be surprised how low some cartridges ride to the surface. You should see the Dynavector 10X5!

Unfortunately the break in process is a long one, but be patient with it. That's the problem with getting more than one brand new cartridges at a time, I know because I've been there too.

Man I hate cartridges that don't have a flat bottom! Maybe I'm daft, but shoudn't functionality be ahead of 'aesthetics' in cart manafacturing?

The Shure mx97xe is a prime example.... looks like an extra's mask from Lord of the rings...:)

Here's some pics to show the Grado in place.
Look at these and tell me if it looks right.


Looks to me as if your tonearm VPA spindle is a bit low and the headshell pitched a bit toward the back, though the photos may be deceiving.

This is one of my TT tables with a Grado Black. It may be hard to see from the photo, but the top of the headshell is level with the record surface. Note the position of the serrated portion of the VPA spindle relative to yours.

http://www.genek.com/ar/artt-gradoblack.jpg

And here's a scan from the XA manual. With no record on the platter the arm and platter ride even higher.

http://www.genek.com/ar/armanualscan.jpg

I see that. Your mat is thinner than my original foam mat. I have a felt mat coming that I hope is thinner. I would think that would make a difference. I can't screw the spindle "higher" without it getting into the wobbly zone.

If I tighten the springs on the suspension to get my spindle higher, like yours, will it make a difference? I'm thinking not since the tonearm and platter on are the same suspension.

If I tighten the springs on the suspension to get my spindle higher, like yours, will it make a difference? I'm thinking not since the tonearm and platter on are the same suspension.

The only way it would change anything would be if the subchassis isn't level now and is pitched toward the back of the table.

You just need to be concerned with the position of the cartridge, not necessarily the position of your headshell, although now that I look at it your cartridge seems tipped back a bit too. A lot of people seem to like their Grado with the tonearm a little low (at the pivot point), but it could be different for you so play around a little. If it sounds great just leave it be so it can break in a little!

That's what I'm going to do for now.

Another Q: if I'm going to be playing mostly used vinyl, is it worth considering bumping up in the Grado line?

That's what I'm going to do for now.

Another Q: if I'm going to be playing mostly used vinyl, is it worth considering bumping up in the Grado line?

I think that would depend on how far up the line we're talking. Unless you can afford a Red or higher I'd stick with the Black until you really have a good idea what it sounds like, then you'll know if you want to upgrade.

Do you mean if I like the "Grado sound" from the black? If so, does moving up the line, simply mean hearing more of the same sound? I notice the freq range changes as you go up.

I just got an email back from Grado Labs telling me that the stylii in the Prestige series are the only difference between models. I've heard comments this isn't the case, but the reply I got from them was in response to my question, "is there a benefit to upgrading with the whole cartridge/stylus, as opposed to just with a new stylus?"

I just got an email back from Grado Labs telling me that the stylii in the Prestige series are the only difference between models. I've heard comments this isn't the case, but the reply I got from them was in response to my question, "is there a benefit to upgrading with the whole cartridge/stylus, as opposed to just with a new stylus?"

I'm one of the people who speculated that there might be differences between the bodies of the various Prestige models, but it looks like this is not the case (you were right Broc). But differences in styli are key. To answer your question, yes, you will hear more of the same signature Grado sound (warm, full in the midrange, etc) as you go up the line, but things like resolution, detail, imaging and so on, those will improve.

For example, in some ways my Platinum has a sound that's similar to my Silver, but performance-wise they're really not close to each other. Actually, that's not the best example because the Platinum seems to have a little less of the signature Grado sound than the Silver, but hopefully you get what I'm saying anyway.:D

I do.

One of the reasons I was glad to hear that is this. If I decide the Grado is the way I want to go (over the Shure M97xE), then I can leave the body on, update the stylus only, and not risk stripping the plastic posts on the headshell. Plus, I would then have a back up stylus if I needed it.

I have a feeling I won't be wanting to swap cartridges on this AR XA . . . I don't want to have to adjust the overhang, etc. each time I want to hear a different cartridge.

That's true, but the more you do it the easier it becomes, like anything else. The first cartridge I installed (my M97XE as a matter of fact) really shot my nerves - I was sweating by the end of it. But now even with my expensive cartridges it's not a big deal, although I still do dread dealing with the delicate headshell leads on my RM5, which are permanently installed to the tonearm at the back end. Imagine if I break one of those...

I've actually wondered if it is possible to get a threaded insert to put in the posts on the AR headshell, if they did get stripped. Drill a little larger to accommodate an aluminum or brass threaded sleeve . . . my main concern is the age of the plastic.

I got notice today that the Shure M97xE is on the way and will be here at the end of next week. So, I hope to find a headshell between now and then. Part of me hopes the Shure won't be as nice, so I can invest in a 'better' Grado, but I know I should give myself the opportunity to listen to the Shure and see what I think.

Kenwood61 - your TT is a little different than most in that it's a classic with old brittle plastic parts. You want to keep the wear and tear down to a minimum.

The Grado body thing is (I think) a testing situation. They build all the Prestige bodies on the same line and with the same parts (mostly - although there are visible differences in some like the gold color cast shielding on the gold, etc.). But, I suspect what they do is test the carts some way (I've speculated on that over on a "It Lives ..." thread) and separate them into batches. Then the put styli into them. The tested bodies and Styli A become the Black/Greeen series, tested bodies and Styli B become the Blue/Red series, upgraded tested bodies become with styli C or D become the Silver/Gold series.

Once you get to the Silver, I think they start getting their own cantilever and different diamond mount (bonded or nude). There is some talk on the net of folks putting Gold styli on Blue bodies and getting good results. So the short answer from my corner is ... yup, keep the body and upgrade the stylus as far as you feel comfortable :)

I think that about sums it up Broc. The Silver and the Gold both have gold bodies.

There is some talk on the net of folks putting Gold styli on Blue bodies and getting good results.

Now that sounds interesting :scratch2: Would you mind pointing me in the direction of that info?

I don't understand how that would work since we've determined the bodies are all the same.

I'll have to dig a bit and see if I can get back there? Seems to me it was on the Steve Hoffman forum? It works because you are putting a better piece in the chain. The original cartirdge was all Blue, and when the stylus wore out, he upgraded to a Gold stylus and was quite happy. IIRC, he had done it before with a older model and gotten similar results. And yes the bodies are all mostly the same, but it's synergy of parts that make some perform better than others - like all the tolerances adding up to a better product one way. That's what Grado's testing and separation scheme is all about :)

I took what you said the wrong way, like someone had a Gold originally and put it in a Blue body with good results, which would not make sense.

Now that sounds interesting :scratch2: Would you mind pointing me in the direction of that info?

Try this and see if it piques your interest?

http://www.vinylengine.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=74837

:music:

That is interesting.....thanks.

Alright, how about I change things up a little . . .

I've been listening to the Grado for awhile now, maybe about 3-4 hours, and while I like the sound, I have some used vinyl that is challenging. I have a Steely Dan "Aja" album and some Dan Fogelberg that is outstanding. I think better than the Dual/AT or B&O/MMC3 setups I had years ago. The music sounds more alive, on good pressings, and some albums, not so great . . . but that's the vinyl, right?

While I'm waiting on the Shure M97xE to show up this week, and a AR tonearm/headshell to show up, that I was planning on doing an A/B comparison and keep the winning cartridge, I've started to think that if I end up liking the Grado, that I will want to upgrade to a Red or Silver. I don't really care to spend setup time with overhang on swapping.

So now, I'm pondering if I should take the time to test the Shure against the Black. The only benefit I can see in doing this, is if I leave it sealed, I can get more of my money out of it to go towards a better Grado.

Any comments?

Hard to say, you're going to have to make this call yourself ultimately. On the one hand I always think it's good to get to hear different cartridges whenever possible. On the other hand if you're happy with the Black you'll probably really like a Silver, and frankly I'm pretty confident that a better Prestige cartridge will kick the tail of a M97XE. Think about it for a while before you decide.

I NOW HAVE THE GRADO PRESTIGE BLACK & SHURE M97XE ON HEADSHELLS --- TESTING HAS BEGUN . . .

I have been enjoying my Grado Prestige Black, though I think I can make minor adjustments to improve the sound. I guess I've listened to it for about 10-14 albums, not a whole lot. I haven't noticed any change in the sound at this point—in response to comments I've heard about a "break in period".

I did get the Shure M97xE today, as well as another tonearm/headshell assembly. The tonearm has the ground wire intact and in great condition, and the headshell is in better condition, with all the plastic nibs in perfect condition, and the spring pins on the head actually move and are at equal length. The headshell with my Grado has "fixed" pins that are shorter. They don't move. It looks like different pins were used.

Anyway, I put the Shure on the new headshell. The new headshell fits tighter and takes careful work to get on. The Shure requres me to shorten the tonearm length and more the counter weight further back. I set the stylus force to 1.7 grams (using the brush).

The Grado is set to 1.25 grams. BTW, I'm using the plastic stylus gauge (Rek-O-Kut??) that came with the table. I know it's not as accurate as a newer Shure gauge, but it's all I have for now.

With the setup time between putting headshells on, adjusting tonearm length, and counterweight, it's difficult to hear differences that help me make a decision of which to keep.

I can say the Shure outputs more volume than the Grado. I know this because to help me out, I decided to record the same portion of a song with each cartridge. I'm using a Nakamichi BX-1 and TDK metal tape. It doesn't sound as good, and adds some tape hiss to boot, but that's how I realized the Shure seems louder, and more in your face. I think the Grado has more depth. I figure I'll play each a bit more, but for now, I'm listening to the tape to better understand the differences I hear and determine what is better.

I will say that I think I like the Grado better. Maybe it's not a fair assessment this early. I also wonder if the Grado would sound better on the better headshell I just got, that now has the Shure on it.

I do like the kit with brush the Shure comes with. That's cool, but I can't enjoy that on the turntable. The brush is handy, but I can't hear a benefit with having it on there. On one hand, while it looks cool, it gets in the way visually of seeing where the needle is when you put in on the record.

I also played my most warped LP and both carts tracked the same, and had the same distance at the closest point to the record. I should listen to the inner groove on some LPs and see if I notice a difference.

I will say, I'm getting practice of adjusting the tonearm and stylus force with this back and forth. I'm looking forward to making a decision and sticking with one cartridge!!!

If I keep the Grado, I plan to sell this and upgrade to a Red.

I NOW HAVE THE GRADO PRESTIGE BLACK & SHURE M97XE ON HEADSHELLS --- TESTING HAS BEGUN . . .

I can say the Shure outputs more volume than the Grado. I know this because to help me out, I decided to record the same portion of a song with each cartridge. I'm using a Nakamichi BX-1 and TDK metal tape. It doesn't sound as good, and adds some tape hiss to boot, but that's how I realized the Shure seems louder, and more in your face. I think the Grado has more depth. I figure I'll play each a bit more, but for now, I'm listening to the tape to better understand the differences I hear and determine what is better.

I do like the kit with brush the Shure comes with. That's cool, but I can't enjoy that on the turntable. The brush is handy, but I can't hear a benefit with having it on there. On one hand, while it looks cool, it gets in the way visually of seeing where the needle is when you put in on the record.

I also played my most warped LP and both carts tracked the same, and had the same distance at the closest point to the record. I should listen to the inner groove on some LPs and see if I notice a difference.


I have to agree with you on the output. The Grado specs states that the output is "supposed" to be louder than the Shure but I find the reverse to be true. As far as the brush being a benefit you will see and hear it when you have a really warped record. I came across a flea market LP that couldn't be played on any of my cartridges except for the Shure M97XE & M97HE with the brush down. The stabilizer brush really works and I wouldn't think of playing a record without the brush down but that's just me. :D

I would agree with you on keeping the brush down. Plus I would think you should adjust the stylus force if you don't use it, to have the optimum force?

One thing that is moving me away from the Shure is that the brush gets in my way when I'm trying to adjust the cart. I've also noticed a need to keep checking the brush to know when to "clean" the dust off.

When I check the overhang on both the Grado and Shure, using the plastic tool that came with my AR, the stylus on the Shure "gives way" and really allows the cart to move further down. It's like the stylus has more vertical movement. The Grado has some vertical movement, but nowhere near the Shure.

As for warped records, I won't buy them anymore. The one I do have seems to play fine with both carts.

That's interesting, I thought I had to turn up the volume a lot more with the Shure than any of my Grados.

Here's something I might have forgotten to tell you, or perhaps it's in this thread I don't feel like going back through it. I've gotten much nicer sound out of my Silver and Platinum tracking them at around 1.8g, and from what I've read on the internet, this seems to be a common experience. Just recently I tried putting my Platinum back down to 1.5g, and the 1.8g VTF sounded better. So give that a try and see what happens. It might not be the case for you - I was just talking about this with someone in another thread who says he likes his better at 1.5g, so it could be system dependent. The man. recommendation is 1.5g, a lot of people (myself included) like to track a little heavier than the recommendation.

I'm letting the Shure stay on today and get some time on it. Tomorrow, I'll put the Grado back on and readjust the stylus force.

On thing that is bugging me, is I need to fine tune my adjustment, but with this back and forth between two carts, it is just too much.

Another factor is that I have another AR stock tonearm with the ground wire and better headshell that I want to install . . . but I have to have time for that process. I assume once that's done, each cart may perform a little different.

All this to say that I wonder if I'm expecting too much hoping to determine—at this stage—which cartridge I like better, knowing I will have to fine tune the table once a decision is made.

Part of why I want to make that decision soon (this week) is if I decide to go Grado with this table, I want to upgrade to a Red or Silver. I would expect either of those to sound better . . .

I'm listening to Dan Fogelberg's "Phoenix" album now and the loud passages are harsh on the Shure. I'll see what's it's like tomorrow on the Grado. I think the Grado does the same thing, or close . . . could be the record, or VTA, or . . .

One thing is clear in spite of all this. The Grado not as loud. A great song to sample is "Along The Road", also by Dan Fogelberg (Phoenix). The start of this song is really cool. It sounds like Dan is playing an acoustic guitar through effects, with a Prophet 5 in the background. With the Grado, this effect on the guitar seems to swirl in the air with a fluid-like grace. The Shure doesn't do this, but seems to extract more detail. The first song on this LP, "Tullamore Dew" has another beginning that has some instrumental that helps show the differences between the two cartridges.

As far as setting a stylus force of 1.8g, or the 1.6g I've heard other folks using . . . I'll have to get a Shure stylus force gauge. I'm using an old Rek-O-Kut plastic one, that was my Dad's and came with the table. I suppose there's no point in keeping that. It has plastic discs in .25g, .5g, 1g and 2g, so you can combine to .25g increments.

You can buy a digital jewelers pocket scale at Harbor Freight for ~$15. It'll read to 1/10 gram quite easily. As far as accuracy, so far it's as good as the French one I have. Runs on two AAA bats. You might find one handy to either set the VTF or calibrate your existing tracking force gage?

OBTW - I guess the AR arms are a bit on the massive side? As an alternative to what you are running, I have an extra AT11 body that came from a yard sale batch. It meters OK. You want it, it's yours? PM me and I'll send it next week. You can get an after market stylus and have a spare with a different voice :)

Really? Have you tested it to see if it's accurate?

I have been enjoying my Grado Prestige Black, though I think I can make minor adjustments to improve the sound. I guess I've listened to it for about 10-14 albums, not a whole lot. I haven't noticed any change in the sound at this point—in response to comments I've heard about a "break in period".



Get back to us on this after something more like 100-200 albums, break in is a very, very long process, and the last segment of it will be so subtle it might be hard to hear. At around 50-60 hours if you haven't heard some sort of change, you other can't hear it (don't take offense), or it's just not happening and we were all wrong!

I don't doubt you at all when you say the Shure is louder than the Grado - just that I recall it being the other way around, and according to the specs it should be, but if that's what you're hearing I certainly will take your word for it.

Regarding the decision-making process between the two: Be patient.:yes: Don't rush this sort of thing. I'm not saying I think you should bother to wait for either cartridge to break in, as this will take a very long time, but go back and forth, take notes if necessary, give it a lot of thought, and know that what you hear now is not going to dramatically change at any point (although in my experience the M97XE got quite a bitter smoother after some extended use). If you really like the Grado you should just go with it, and in that case I strongly recommend holding out as long as you have to in order to save up for a Silver, it will be worth it. And I can tell you for a fact that the Silver takes months of regular use to break in, but when it gets there, you will have a smile on your face.

Hey Mr. Lin, I appreciate the comments.

I may end up going with the Grado for several reasons.

1) there is something about it I really like (even if I can't put my finger on it)

2) I don't really feel like continually cleaning the brush on the Shure and in some ways it gets in my way, including you can't remove the stylus alone without removing the whole cartridge out of the headshell in my AR (remember stock arm/headshell)

3) If I sell both, I can step up the Grado line, which I would think would be a bigger difference with the Shure (ie if I was comparing a Red or Silver with the Shure it might be an easier decision).

Then there is time. The kind of time you're talking about would take me 200-400 albums or 100-120 hours since I would have to let both carts "play out" . . . I might as well just live with one cart and if I don't like it after that amount of time, I can always buy a different cartridge.

While I appreciate the words of wisdom and encouragement to hang in there, I think I'll take the time I need to make a decision, sooner than later, that is right for my table and system. The reality is that I would most likely be happy with either cartridge. I do have tone controls :) that can help balance out highs, lows and mids.

I will say there are no glaring differences between these two cartridges on my AR XA through my system. On another system, it might be an easier choice.

I doubt the Black will change much. It's not as subtle as the Silver. But what Mr Lin says is pretty right on. As far as saving up for a Red, I would not bother. I have all three, Black, Blue and Red (sort of, based on older bodies) and although there are subtle differences. It's not readily apparently until you get to the Silver or Gold. So far my wife prefers the Black to the other two. I spend more time under the headphones, so it's easier to hear the differences. The Black is a pretty darn nice cartridge for its low cost :)

Right now I have switched out the Grados (all three in a row) because I was trying to listen to a 1960's Righteous Brothers album with a lot of surface noise. Ended up with the M97eX with the brush down as it was quieter on surface noise this album. Now I've got Nancy Wilson on and left the 97 on as she sounds great with it. I'll switch next time I get into a corner.

Like last night, I was listening to Foreigner "4" with the Ortofon OM. Usually it sounds great on rock, but there was something missing. As soon as I stuck the Grado in, it all came together :)

I doubt the Black will change much. It's not as subtle as the Silver. But what Mr Lin says is pretty right on. As far as saving up for a Red, I would not bother. I have all three, Black, Blue and Red (sort of, based on older bodies) and although there are subtle differences. It's not readily apparently until you get to the Silver or Gold. So far my wife prefers the Black to the other two. I spend more time under the headphones, so it's easier to hear the differences. The Black is a pretty darn nice cartridge for its low cost :)



This is another thing I've read several times. Apparently the differences between the Grados up to the Silver/Gold level are quite subtle, yet another reason why I strongly advise waiting until you can afford either of those.

Is keeping both the Shure and the Black and waiting a while to upgrade your Grado a possibility? Believe me, I know the urge to upgrade and get to the next level when you feel like you're on to something (ie the Grado "sound"), but it's often a good idea to try and take your time with these things I think. Like Broc for example, who is diligently going through an array of cartridges and acquiring a soon-to-be vast knowledge of the house sound of many brands/models. Savor your M97XE and your Black, and then you'll appreciate a Silver more when the time comes. Also, as Broc has told us here, it's good to have something like a M97XE when you need better tracking. I know, you're not going to buy warped records anymore, but unfortunately they often warp to some degree over time, and I still think in the end you'll find the Shure handles the mini roller coaster rider better than the Grado.

Hope I'm not getting too preachy here, just trying to help with my opinions.

Preach away brother! :D

First, if I sold both cartridges, I could afford to buy the Silver.

My original plan was to get two cartridges and swap as needed. But after finding out how much goes into that on my old AR XA, I decided not to put that kind of stress on the headshell, etc. If I had a newer table, a second table, which I want to do at some point, then it would be a different story.

Preach away brother! :D

First, if I sold both cartridges, I could afford to buy the Silver.

My original plan was to get two cartridges and swap as needed. But after finding out how much goes into that on my old AR XA, I decided not to put that kind of stress on the headshell, etc. If I had a newer table, a second table, which I want to do at some point, then it would be a different story.

Ok, it's going to seem like I'm contradicting myself here, but I usually am of the opinion that it's better not to skimp when it comes to cartridges, and to save up for the best you can afford. So to look at the other side of this when we're talking about your plan, selling those two and buying one single superior cartridge is also a wise decision. In the end you'll get the best results that way.

In any case, your situation here is of interest to me for several reasons, perhaps most of all because I like to hear people's impressions of cartridges I'm already familiar with when they are hearing them for the first time.

Yep. Right now, I just need to get my setup figured out so I can enjoy listening for awhile.

I'll play around with the cartridges a little more and let you guys know how it goes and what I end up doing.

I just noticed that the guy that installed my Grado has thin spacers (nylon?) between the cartridge and posts in the headshell. If I put on the top side (that faces toward record) I should be able to get a little more angle on VTA. I think page 3 of this thread shows where my Grado is riding now. So if I put the spacers where I think they should be, the bottom of the cartridge should be higher off the record surface, and the stylus would be at an increased angle.

Any thoughts?

I am new to the forum, but have a good collection of LP's and have enjoyed them for years. Thanks to the information that I gathered here from you fine folks, I decided to try some new cartridges. Here is what I have.

New:
Shure M97xE
Grado Prestige Blue
Audio Technica AT440MLa
Audio Technica AT-92E

Used:
ADC Integra XLM-1
Empire 5000 MK1

I just received the AT440MLa, so haven't tried it yet. The AT-92E isn't mentioned much, but to me seems to be a decent sounding cartridge which has more detail than the ADC Integra that I have used for the last few years.

I really like the Shure. It seemed to be more suseptable to imperfections, but adds a lot of detail and I think has a very fine sound.

Next, I tested the Grado Blue. I went with the Blue because it had the better cantaliver than the black and green. I also noticed that it has a much lower output level than the Shure. It has a nice sound though. I would describe it as a much more neutral sound, but good performance throughout the spectrum.

I've used the ADC that came with my table for the last few years, but it seems to be lacking in detail, and/or high frequency responce. The stylus could be worn.

I haven't heard much about the older Empire Cartridges, but I always remembered that this cartridge had a nice sound on a cheap turntable that I trashed, so also purchased a headshell for it. It seems to cover the high end of the spectrum very well.

I am far from an expert, but to my ears, these all seem to be fine cartridges with the exception being the ADC, but like I said, the stylus may be worn.

I also just received the 440MLa so will be trying it within the next few days.

Any thoughts on the older Empire?

I kind of went hog wild and also purchased a AT-PL120 turntable from Amazon which I will be receiving on Monday, though the turntable that I am using is very nice(Pioneer PL-560). I thought that the AT-PL120 may perform better and do not always prefer the automatic options on the Pioneer.

I figure that since I have a very nice collection that it would be worthwhile to invest in some good cartridges.:yes:

Welcome AAA3330! I'd be curious how feel about the AT440MLa . . .

Mr. Lin, another question popped into my head. My Grado doesn't hum. Have you ever heard anything that would suggest that means that NO Grado will hum on my table, or is it possible it could vary from cart to cart?

Welcome AAA3330! I'd be curious how feel about the AT440MLa . . .

Mr. Lin, another question popped into my head. My Grado doesn't hum. Have you ever heard anything that would suggest that means that NO Grado will hum on my table, or is it possible it could vary from cart to cart?

As far as I know, this should mean that no Grado will hum on your tt.

A local shop has the Silver for $150. Is there a reason I should go that route as opposed to finding one on ebay, etc. for a little less? Just curious.

A local shop has the Silver for $150. Is there a reason I should go that route as opposed to finding one on ebay, etc. for a little less? Just curious.

There's a seller on Ebay that sells them mounted on a Technics clone headshell for 129.95. That's good enough reason to go the Ebay route. I've dealt with the seller before and he's one I would trust.

A local shop has the Silver for $150. Is there a reason I should go that route as opposed to finding one on ebay, etc. for a little less? Just curious.

I purchased my Grado on ebay. It is new, but when I went to the Grado website, I found that they do not honor the warranty with online auctions or sellers which are not listed as one of their retailers.

I know some of you are going to say I'm impulsive and impatient. You may be right. But you may be wrong :scratch2: . . . I've decided to put the Shure M97xE up for adoption. It's stay with me has been short and sweet, but musical enjoyment dictates I let it go to a new home soon (which means the Grado Black will go up for adoption as well).

I listened to a couple of albums today that helped me make up my mind. One was my worst warped record, which coincidentally, I think I'm going to look for a replacement. It has some damage on one song, that I don't want any needle to run over.

With a little more fiddling around with the tonearm I was able to dial in the adjustments a little better. What I ended up with, is the following results YMMV.

The Shure M97xE was like standing in a big shallow pool of water where you can see all the coral and creatures swimming around, everything in the pool.

The Grado Prestige Black was more like standing at the edge of the coral in a slightly deeper pool of water where you can actually step in and experience more. You don't see as much, but you enjoy what you see.

Okay, I'm trying to be poetic. But the Shure brings out more detail and at times is too harsh, and fatiguing on my ears. Yeah, I've heard many people say that's not the case, and maybe I don't have everything dialed in, but that's what I'm hearing. The Grado is smoother to my ears, and overall more enjoyable.

I can tell that there is some dialing in to do with either cartridge on this 40 year old AR XA, but in spite of that, the Shure didn't track that much better than the Grado on my warped record . . . but I don't plan on keeping any of those things, and I only have one, so no big deal.

I suppose another way of putting my thoughts in words to compare the two cartridges (not that you want to hear any more of my opinions) . . . the Shure shows you all the musical detail, the Grado invites you in. I will add the difference is slight, but it's there, and on the right recordings/pressings, is more obvious.

There was one other factor in my decision. As much as I like the idea of the protective measures the Shure offers, that brush gets in my way of cleaning the stylus, and maybe I'm too darn lazy, but I don't like having to clean the stylus brush guard all the time.

Now this brings me to a thought I would share. If a brush is such a great idea on a cartridge why doesn't ever other manufacturer do it? You don't see brushes on any other cart (that I know of) except for Stanton.

[now I will run and hide before objects start flying at me]

The brush: the higher-end you go with cartridges, the less there is to them, you'll notice. Not always, but the point is you want less things that could potentially create resonance. Having that big old apparatus with a brush on it is asking for a reduction in sound quality, whatever anybody says this is how I feel about it. And kenwood61, I totally hear you about having to clean that little brush all the time, it really annoyed me too. A carbon fiber brush is a much better option.

I don't think you're being too impulsive, and I think you'll find you've made the right decision. BTW, with a Silver you'll notice a lot more detail than the Shure offered, particularly in the midrange, which is what Grado is famous for. Go for it, but if I were you I'd pay the extra $20 to know Grado will service your cartridge in the event there's a problem.

You're about to step up to a new level.

Mr. Lin, yeah, I'll definitely pay the extra money to have that assurance, just in case :D

I'll report back after I've gotten the new cartridge . . . which will be as soon as I sell the other two.

Thanks for the support. I feel like I made the right decision as well. And just so you know, I am already thinking ahead to the day I can find the perfect table to mate with one of those pretty Grado wood cartridges :D:smoke:

Just received my new AT-PL120 turntable today and am very pleased with it. Also tried the AT440MLa and it sounds very nice with lots of clarity. I didn't really need the turntable, but couldn't resist Amazon's price. I attached some photo's of my favorite turntables. The first one is the Pioneer PL-560. It is fully automatic. You can set it up for manual operation, but can't turn off the auto return. It has the cool lighted pitch meter which you can switch between the meter or quartz lock.

The second photo is the AT-PL120 in action. It has the slider pitch control and quartz lock. A nice feature on this table is that it runs at 78 RPM. It's a very attractive table and well built for today's standards.

The last one is a Sony 2251, which seems to be somewhat rare. It is built like a tank. The pitch control is on the left. The pitch markings are on the bottom of the platter and uses a mirror or mirrors to reflect the markings through a lens in the center. The bad part about this table is that you cannot change the headshell.

Kenwood61, I see what you are saying in comparing the Grado to the Shure. I really like the sound of both, but it seems like the sound of the Shure may be more colored, especially at the higher frequencys, where the sound from the Grado may be more natural and accurate. It's very difficult for me to say whether one is better than the other as I like the sound of both. Perhaps it is an aquired taste like fine wine.

I hadn't planned on using the cartridge that came with my Audio Technica turntable(ATP-2XN) anyway, but noticed that the recommended tracking force is 3.5 grams. It is a DJ cartridge, but I would think that this would ruin your records. Maybe good for 78's.:D

I just started testing the AT440MLa, but it seems to sound a lot like the Shure.

Just received my new AT-PL120 turntable today and am very pleased with it. Also tried the AT440MLa and it sounds very nice with lots of clarity. I didn't really need the turntable, but couldn't resist Amazon's price. I attached some photo's of my favorite turntables. The first one is the Pioneer PL-560. It is fully automatic. You can set it up for manual operation, but can't turn off the auto return. It has the cool lighted pitch meter which you can switch between the meter or quartz lock.

The second photo is the AT-PL120 in action. It has the slider pitch control and quartz lock. A nice feature on this table is that it runs at 78 RPM. It's a very attractive table and well built for today's standards.

The last one is a Sony 2251, which seems to be somewhat rare. It is built like a tank. The pitch control is on the left. The pitch markings are on the bottom of the platter and uses a mirror or mirrors to reflect the markings through a lens in the center. The bad part about this table is that you cannot change the headshell.

I suggest you start a thread about this topic, that way people will notice it more and probably have a lot to say about your new equipment.

Typically people consider the Shure a very neutral cartridge, and Grados to be warm and colored, but if that's what you're ears are telling you, that's how it is.

I suggest you start a thread about this topic, that way people will notice it more and probably have a lot to say about your new equipment.

Typically people consider the Shure a very neutral cartridge, and Grados to be warm and colored, but if that's what you're ears are telling you, that's how it is.

Obviously, I am not welcome in this thread. I typically respect what others have to offer. I'll gladly move on. Sorry that I stepped in where I was not welcome.:ntwrthy: Kenwood61 stated that he was looking for the perfect turntable. I thought that the photos may have been of some interest.

Obviously, I am not welcome in this thread. I typically respect what others have to offer. I'll gladly move on. Sorry that I stepped in where I was not welcome.:ntwrthy:

Hopefully your comment is jest. The way I read Mr. Lin's reply was as a helpful suggestion to elecit more interest in your gear and hopefully garner more feedback. The "....no attitude" claim on this forum is no bull@#$%. You see to have an avid interest and it would be a shame to loose another enthusiast based on a misunderstanding.

I concur :D You'll get more response since most people looking at this thread are interesting in the two cartridges in the title. I don't think anyone doesn't appreciate your enthusiasm, and nice turntables by the way, so I hope to see you around. :smoke:

Hey Mr. Lin, you know I did notice some um on my Grado, but it's not even noticable, and barely even still, at the inner groove, when the cartridge is closer to the motor . . . but that don't bother me :)

Obviously, I am not welcome in this thread. I typically respect what others have to offer. I'll gladly move on. Sorry that I stepped in where I was not welcome.:ntwrthy:

Wait, you completely misunderstood the tone of what I was saying to you. Please understand I was only suggesting you'll get more focused attention and quality responses in a dedicated thread, but I was not telling you to hit the road!:D I am personally interested in what you have to say, and I'll help you in any way I can if you have questions. Don't ever hesitate to ask anything around here. Hope that clears things up.

Dave

Hey Mr. Lin, you know I did notice some um on my Grado, but it's not even noticable, and barely even still, at the inner groove, when the cartridge is closer to the motor . . . but that don't bother me :)

Good - could possibly be another issue somewhere in the chain? If it doesn't bother you, no worries.

I think it may have to do with the table not being grounded. I know some guys say it doesn't matter, but I get bad hum static when touching the tonearm, and bet that doesn't help. I can't wait to install the tonearm I picked up on ePlay. It has the original wires and everything, including the ground wire is immaculate. Looking forward to that. Hope I don't mess up :D

Which tonearm is that? I get hum touching the tonearm when it's not properly grounded as well, I think it's a good idea to just do it when possible. Does your AR have an AC motor?

Don't know if my AR XA has an AC motor. It is the early 2 motor version. I'm waiting on new belts to show up, but it seems to work just fine. What table is your Grado (wood) on?

I obviously misunderstood what you were trying to say. I may be uninformed about what colored actually means when it comes to cartridges. What I meant to say is that it seemed like with the Shure that there is more emphasis in the upper frequency range that seems unatural, where the Grado seemed more flat and natural across the spectrum, but I could be way off. I haven't had these cartridges for more than 2 weeks, so I doubt that they are even broken in. Again, thanks for being so understanding.:yes:

Break-in time for either of these cartridges is measured in numbers like 25 hours playing time for the M97 and maybe a 100 hours for the Grado. They just keep improving to that point, then sort of flatten out and become what they are.

The other night I stuck a new used copy of Foreigner 4 on with the M97 and it sounded OK. I had switched from the OM due to a first track scratchiness on another album - I wanted to know if it was the cart or LP? So I was about three LPs into the 97 when I just said to myself that it was not getting it? So I stuck in the Grado and bingo - it came together. There is synergy between LP and cartridge. Need choices. Aint no one size fits all as far as I can see?

I obviously misunderstood what you were trying to say. I may be uninformed about what colored actually means when it comes to cartridges. What I meant to say is that it seemed like with the Shure that there is more emphasis in the upper frequency range that seems unatural, where the Grado seemed more flat and natural across the spectrum, but I could be way off. I haven't had these cartridges for more than 2 weeks, so I doubt that they are even broken in. Again, thanks for being so understanding.:yes:

What you say about how the Shure sounded in the above quote here is pretty much what I mean by coloration; it adds something to the sound that isn't actually part of the original recording. But yeah, you should give them more time and then you'll get a better idea of what the real sound is.

Well, I couldn't sell my Grado, which really perplexes me. So it looks like I'll be "stuck" with it for a few years. I shouldn't complain. It does sound good. I just got myself worked up over upgrading to the Silver. I saw a link on AK for a site that was selling Grado's for cheap. I suppose that might have something to do with it. I can say however that I like how the Grado sounded as opposed to the Shure. So I did learn something.

Well, I couldn't sell my Grado, which really perplexes me. So it looks like I'll be "stuck" with it for a few years. I shouldn't complain. It does sound good. I just got myself worked up over upgrading to the Silver. I saw a link on AK for a site that was selling Grado's for cheap. I suppose that might have something to do with it. I can say however that I like how the Grado sounded as opposed to the Shure. So I did learn something.

you can upgrade your Black with a higher level stylus assembly. I did so, and have a Red stylus on mine now. There was a subtle uptick in sound quality when I changed, and perhaps a Gold or Silver would sound even better. I am holding out for one of the high output wood-body Grados at present.:music:

I had thought of that, but the idea of having a perfectly good stylus (Black) just sitting around. Plus the stylus accounts for most of the cartridge cost. Something to think about though . . . thanks.

As far as coloration - I discount the discussion that there is one cartridge that is "flat" and another that is "big in the midrange". Then the folks with these two get into tit for tat, blah, blah.

As far as I can tell all cartridges color the sound to some degree. With now 14 to choose from, I think I have a bit of insight about what works with some LPs. What I've come to realize is that some cartridges work well with some LPs. I still don't know if that was/is the sound the recording engineer had in mind? And I don't know any way to find out? But, it's the one I like to listen to :)

So pick your LP and pick the best match you can and enjoy :)

Hey TJLitt, I see you have Grado headphones listed . . . how d'you like'm?

mine are rather low-end and still sound very good. Good deal for less than
$100, IMHO.