The shop messed up the brake job on my car.

[Njord Noatun]

My car ('03 Saab 9-3) needed new brakes, and I took it into my wheel/tire/brake specialist for new pads and rotors all the way around this morning. My wife picked it up when it was done, and told me when she got back that the brakes were "heavy". I took the car out for a spin, and the brakes are totally mushy - it feels like they are unable to stop the car unless I really stomp on the pedal. Worse, when I repeatedly pump the pedal, the brake mushes up even more, losing brake effect just about altogether, until I let off the brakes for a few seconds, and then it goes back to its "mushy normal".

The car had super brakes before - tap the pedal, and the car stops on a dime without effort or hesitation - like a sports car. When I pointed this problem out to the mechanic, he said that the brakes probably need to to be "run in", but there is no way, IMHO, that these brakes can go from this bad to great.

I avoided the dealership for this job because of their out of this world pricing, but now I am getting cold feet for "only" paying $800 (the rotors alone are $400 on this car!) at the tire center.

The car is going back tomorrow morning for them to put things right. Any thoughts on what is going on with the brakes now that they need to fix?

First taxes, now this - what a week! :tears:

[onwardjames]

Sounds like they didn't bleed the lines. That would cause the pedal to go much further down, and still not stop the car.

Not a great mechanic, but I think that may be it. Simple fix. You should bitch about it, as that is s.o.p. when doing a brake job.

[Twenty20Man]

thats sounds about right..unless they put a hole in the boot, but you should see a mess around one of the tires if they did that..

[Cleve]

Mushy pedal = brakes that need bleeding. Or low brake fluid. Bleeding usually isn't a big deal - unless the bleeding valve on an individual caliper is frozen and can't be loosened.

[soundson]

Sounds like they either need bleeding or they forgot to tighten up one of the calipers.

[Cleve]

The car had super brakes before - tap the pedal, and the car stops on a dime without effort or hesitation - like a sports car. When I pointed this problem out to the mechanic, he said that the brakes probably need to to be "run in", but there is no way, IMHO, that these brakes can go from this bad to great.



I should point out - any "mechanic" that says such a moronic thing shouldn't be working in a licensed repair shop. He's either a liar, a complete idiot, or some combination of the two. It's completely reprehensible and irresponsible to return a car to a customer with malfunctioning brakes.

Yes, brake pads ideally should be 'broke in' - ie, no hard panic stops for a few miles. But the pedal should feel just fine, in terms of firmness, if the brake system is properly bled, and the calipers are installed correctly. And that should happen as soon as the car is taken off the lift.

If these jokers start saying you need "extra" parts like master cylinders, calipers, et al, do yourself a favor - get the car out of there and take it to a reputable shop. Or take it to a friend who's mechanically inclined and have them look at it.

[MrGee]

If you pump them, you make things worse, because you are demanding more and more vacuum from the power assist system.

He could have gotten some of the anti-squeal on the inside of one of the pads (a common issue) and if this is the case, the mechanic would be right on the money, it would take a couple hundred miles of driving to wear in.

Also, if you had the brakes replaced with aftermarket ceramic pads, the "bite" would be VERY different. The harder the pad, the more pressure needed to stop the car.

[240sx4u]

I did 4 corners of brakes on my GF's acura 2.3CL. Pedal has a mushy-ish feel to begin with.

I installed Brembo front pads, and hawk rears. Felt awful. My heart sank as I drove it the first time. Car did NOT want to stop. It took me an easy 15 miles to bed them in. Now that car will make your eyeballs shoot out of your skull in a panic stop.

The soft pedal isn't right though. I am agreeing with the above and saying they need to be bled.

Evan

[fotno]

To add to what's been said before, some cars (I don't know if this holds true for a Saab) are engineered with line runs that make it really tricky to bleed the system without inclining the car, or using a pressurized bleeder tool.

That's not to excuse the mechanic, if that's the case with this car he should have known about it. That's what they make service manuals for.

[Njord Noatun]

Thanks for everyone's responses, thoughts and advice. The car is back at the shop for re-repair, and hopefully it all works out. I will keep y'all updated.

[cabinover]

I'll add this to the mix. For a simple rotor and pad replacement there is no reason in the world that any lines should have been broken open.

It's much the same as when anyone says to me," I just need to add some brake fluid." Sorry, it's not that simple.

If you ever need to add brake fluid there is a huge problem that needs immediate attention. You have a leak or it's being burnt in the engine, take your pick.

[MrGee]

If you ever need to add brake fluid there is a huge problem that needs immediate attention. You have a leak or it's being burnt in the engine, take your pick.
Actually, many of the older cars would need to be added to as the brakes wore out. The thinner the pads got, the less there would be in the reservior.
(Though this would be a very small amount of displacement.)

[cabinover]

In today's vehicles there is plenty of brake fluid reservoir capacity to overcome the amount displaced from thinning pads/shoes.

The biggest problem with adding brake fluid besides the leak problem is when you install that set of new pads/shoes where is the extra fluid going to go? That's right, out the top of the reservoir and onto the firewall or frame. There goes the paint on that spot.

[jhal]

I should point out - any "mechanic" that says such a moronic thing shouldn't be working in a licensed repair shop. He's either a liar, a complete idiot, or some combination of the two. It's completely reprehensible and irresponsible to return a car to a customer with malfunctioning brakes.

Yes, brake pads ideally should be 'broke in' - ie, no hard panic stops for a few miles. But the pedal should feel just fine, in terms of firmness, if the brake system is properly bled, and the calipers are installed correctly. And that should happen as soon as the car is taken off the lift.

If these jokers start saying you need "extra" parts like master cylinders, calipers, et al, do yourself a favor - get the car out of there and take it to a reputable shop. Or take it to a friend who's mechanically inclined and have them look at it.

Those assholes need their toolboxes welded shut. They need to make it right. Period. With no more cost to you. I'm amazed that they gave the car back to you like this. The liability would not let me sleep at night. I have been working on cars off and on professionally for the last 18 years and have never given a customer back their car until it was fixed properly. It makes my blood boil and gives all mechanics/technicians the bad image that the public associates them with.

[Alaric]

It makes my blood boil and gives all mechanics/technicians the bad image that the public associates them with.


+++1

[Elfasto]

It makes my blood boil and gives all mechanics/technicians the bad image that the public associates them with.

Yep, me too.

As a heavy duty tech, I have to take pride in my work. If I screw up, I could possibly allow a 60,000+ pound locomotive on rubber tires plow thru a dozen cars and a building before stopping.

[Goodwill_HiFi]

If you ever need to add brake fluid there is a huge problem that needs immediate attention. You have a leak or it's being burnt in the engine, take your pick.

Could you explain how brake fluid would get burned in the engine?

[Web Police]

Could you explain how brake fluid would get burned in the engine?

If your master cylinder has a seal leak the fluid can get sucked into the vacumm booster and then into the intake manifold and into the engine where it produce very white smoke.

I had it happen one time and my car was like a jungle fogger. :D

[hypertone]

The biggest problem with adding brake fluid besides the leak problem is when you install that set of new pads/shoes where is the extra fluid going to go? That's right, out the top of the reservoir and onto the firewall or frame. There goes the paint on that spot.

I've done that before...once! After that I started opening the bleeder valve while compressing the caliper. The fluid in the caliper is really nasty, so it's not good to pump it back up into the master cylinder. :thmbsp:

[Njord Noatun]

Good news: I took the car back today, and the shop sorted out the problem. The car seems to brake pretty much the way it did before the repair.

The shop manager implied that the problem had to do with some sort of manual adjustment to the manual/hand brake. What do I know - I all care about at this point is that the shop fixed their mistake. Kudos to them for getting it right in the end. And thanks for everyones suggestions and thoughts! :thmbsp:

[Alaric]

They likely adjusted the rear brake shoes . The shoe adjusters generally have to be retracted to pull the drums , in order to replace the shoes. Several hard stops , while in reverse , will usually activate the self-adjusters on rear drum brakes. The emergency brake ('hand' brake) , activates the rear brake. Glad you got it sorted out.

[cabinover]

Would have sworn that 9.3 had rotors and pads on the rear as most Saabs do. Doesn't matter though, long as you're safe again.

[Fisher-Dave]

In today's vehicles there is plenty of brake fluid reservoir capacity to overcome the amount displaced from thinning pads/shoes.

The biggest problem with adding brake fluid besides the leak problem is when you install that set of new pads/shoes where is the extra fluid going to go? That's right, out the top of the reservoir and onto the firewall or frame. There goes the paint on that spot.


True. When ''disk pads'' wear the pistons on disk brake calipers only plung out farther with pad wear taking more fluid from the reservoir.When new pads are installed and pistons are pushed back ''home'' in the calipers,the fluid will rise in the reservoir.If fluid has been topped off before the worn pads are replaced,well, your right. It will make a mess lol.

Another thing some folks don't think about is when bleeding the brakes, don't fully depress the pedal untill the master cyl piston bottoms out.That is not good as it can cause seal damage in the master cly. Only if I replace a master cly will I even pump the brakes bleeding them, any other time I only gravity bleed them.Brakes are not very complex but some shops will hire anyone I guess.

[soundmotor]

I have been working on cars off and on professionally for the last 18 years and have never given a customer back their car until it was fixed properly.

You are the guy I ask my neighbors about. "Who do you take your car to for work?" Usually within a few inquiries you start seeing a pattern as to who you go to and who to avoid.

[Njord Noatun]

Would have sworn that 9.3 had rotors and pads on the rear as most Saabs do. Yes, I have paid for a full set of four rotors and matching pads, so I will assume that you are correct.

[Alaric]

four rotors and matching pads

Hmmmm. Seems I was less than attentive. My bad.

[jhal]

I'm happy to hear they got it sorted out. Sounds like the tech was playing "beat the clock" on Flat Rate and it came back to haunt him. The number one problem with car repair today is Flat Rate pay. The mechanic gets paid a certain amount of time to fix the car, no matter how long it usually takes him to do it. Most of these times are way too low to allow the mechanic to fix it properly, so they take shortcuts to finish the job. That's why it is getting very hard to find good repair shops today. All of the great techs are going to other professions and the ones that stay are "upselling" (mostly unnecessary repairs) to survive. The car companies are cutting warranty pay times to unrealistic levels to the point these guys can barely pay their Snap-On bills. Try replacing cylinder head gaskets on a 6 liter Powerstroke in a day. That's what they (Ford) pay, and the cab has to come off of the truck to do it properly.

[MRX37]

Reminds me of GM brakes... Every vehicle I've driven that was made by GM has mushy brakes. They never seem to get the brakes right!

My Dodge Dakota has fantastic brakes. I only need to move that pedal a bit to stop normally, and need to push it maybe halfway to stop suddenly.

Anyway, yeah I suspect there's air in the lines as well. I'd have those guys fix it, then find a new brake shop. Hitting that brake pedal, and watching it go all the way to the floor, and you're not slowing down fast enough is a SCARY feeling!

EDIT: Glad to hear its fixed.

[Goodwill_HiFi]

If your master cylinder has a seal leak the fluid can get sucked into the vacumm booster and then into the intake manifold and into the engine where it produce very white smoke.

I had it happen one time and my car was like a jungle fogger. :D

I figured it must be something like that since the vacuum line would be the only physical connection between the engine and the brake system. My experience with vacuum boosters is nill........ I just haven't had problems with them, and my truck doesn't have one, as it's all hydraulic.

[chillwolf]

Glad to hear they got the problem fixed and you can safely stop your vehicle now! I had to take my car to the dealer last week to get a new headlight switch installed ( the original one quit working). The only problem was they put one on that had no provision for turning on the factory installed fog lights. In my state you have to have your vehicle inspected annually, and whatever lights are on it have to work. So had to take it back a second time so they could put the correct switch on! Paid $230 and they couldn't get it right the 1st time. :no: