Hello everybody, i'm new here,

i'm quite audiophile (on the budget, if i compare what the rest calls an audiophile system and budget). but hé, i'm having fun and like diy stuff.

i'm looking for a decent hifi turntable, my eye always tumble on a technics.
i like the thought that i can turn with it for the next 20 years. since i probably will not end with super system the first 10 years, i'm willing to sacrifice a bit of the top end, beside that, i cannot put 3000 euro for a vpi.

So what to buy ?

1)i'm thinking of a technics sl-1200 mkII: the easy choice is suppose. but then here some questions.

does it need to be a technics ? i have heard that for example the gemini 2400 is as good as the technics but comes fairly cheaper. and if it is cheap enough (under 300euro, i will buy new stuff). Although good TT keep themself very well under time, a lot of these TT are heavy used, exept the people that buy it for home use( and they don't sell that quick).

If i take a technics: does it need to be an sl-1200mkII, this is really wanted. i have seen that technics made others like 1600-1700mkII or maybe home versions of these. Wat is as good as an sl-1200mkII and is not as wanted as the 1200 ? I like the newer stuff (so as recent as possible) and also easily to get parts of : maybe the same stuff that is in the 1200 exept the looks differ ?

I'm not willing to go into thorens, or rega. Since there is a lot of stuff outhere that isn't good anymore, and having a hard time to pick the good things out of the bad, certainly if you are buying online.


i will put a decent cartridge on it, but not silly expensive, an mx95 shure looks fine, the phono preamp wil be diy tube stage of very high quality. (can be found on www.dddac.de, or www.triodedick.com).
with these i think i'm in a good company. over time i will buy all my music on vinyl, so i need a TT which can stand some usage. (i do listen up to 15 hours per day music). (that's why an expensive cartridge is out of budget).

thanx people, i know a lot of questions, but hé, i'm open to your thoughts;

greetings fillemon

Welcome to AK, Fillemon! Are you from France?

If you want something that's going to last and be pretty much free from trouble, a new SL-1200MK2 would be a wise choice. Technics continues to make them and support them. For the Gemini, if you mean the PT-2400, it looks decent, but I'm not familiar with the build or sound quality--it's not sold in the US. I'd stay away from the SA-2400 as it has a straight arm--not suitable for hi-fi use.

The SL-16/17/1800MK2 are very similar to the 1200MK2, but marketed for home use. They are suspended while the 12 is not. The 16 and 17 often suffer a broken cueing/automation belt, but that is a cheap and easy fix. But even some of these have been used by DJs so you would have to be assured that the arm bearings are good. Technics does sell new tonearm assemblies for US$65 which will fit the 18 and might work in the 16 or 17 but you'd lose the automation. Some of the parts between the 12 and the 16/17/18 are interchangeable, but not all. They use different dust cover hinges, for example.

thank hakaplan, that is the best answer i could get,
really a lot of information.

i have looked at the second hand market,
and you know, none of those good technics player, exept at almost new price. so for 100 euro less i rather buy a brand new one,


but what did i see

an yamaha yp-d6 in good condition for 75 euro

and an

kenwood kd 850 DD, with Pickering XV15-1200 for 125 euro
(i don't know exactly but it looks a bit more used).

what would you pick, and also, what do i have to pay attention to if i buy a second hand turntable ?

thanx a lot

OK, everything Hakaplan said is good info. But, the TTs you saw after were nice too. The Kenwoods are regarded by many as very decent TTs. The Yamaha is too, but I seem to recall some issues? I'd do a search here on AK for each model (by post, not thread) and look at what folks are saying. I think you can do well in the used market. It's all about careful shopping :)

When looking at a used TT, it's important that all the functions you want to use are working. That the overall condition is nice (indicates one well taken care of). That the speed is steady and can be varied without it going wild. And maybe most important, that the tonearm moves through it's arc smoothly.

To get a sense of the tone arm bearings, use two fingers and lightly try to twist it in all motions (front back, side side, up down). If you feel any clicks or little snaps, it's not good and move on. If it feels buttery smooth in all motions, it's probably OK.

For good intermediate hi-fi work you will be spending $200 usd on a cartridge (and maybe a bit more) as priced in our market. You'll have to adjust for EU conditions. But don't just settle for the cartridge. Lesser ones work, but give up detail, resolution, impact and the like. So work that into you budget. Remember that the signal comes from the cartridge and stylus. All the TT can do is degrade that signal. TT do not make the music, they spin the records. Don't skimp on the cartridge :)

If you can get a good used table, it will run well for many years. They have a very long life span. As you play that one, you can look about for an upgrade to a better model. The old rules apply, you won't see the deals until you already have one that is working well. As soon as you are in that position, they'll be everywhere you look :)

I'd be awfully tempted to grab that KD-850. This was their second best turntable in 1981. Their best was the renown L-07D, which, if you can find one, would cost thousands. 125 EURO for an 850 is a bargain, if it is in good condition. I believe it retailed for $600 back in 1981.

Here's a great site that shows the 1981 offerings:

http://kenwood.pytalhost.eu/1981/

I'd make sure it does everything Broc said. Also make sure all the automatic functions work, including being able to sense record size (and speed, if it's supposed to do that). Bring an lp and a 45 to test, but not your best ones in case the needle is worn. If the owner can hook it up to a stereo so much the better. Then you can hear the sound quality and detect any obvious speed fluctuations.

The cartridge is a nice one, and replacement needles are available if necessary, but that's not even really an issue as long as the turntable passes the test.

Let us know what you end up doing.

I would avoid the Gemini. It might be suitable for DJ work, but that's an entirely different realm than hi fi use. And there's a reason that it's a copy and less expensive...much like a fake Rolex.

You really cannot go wrong with a Technics provided that 1.) It's direct drive, 2.) Has an S shaped arm, 3.) Isn't a "P" mount-only deck.

There are other models that wont fit these criteria that *are* good, but any of their turntables that meet all 3 of these will perform well.

thanx a lot people, for the fine explanation,

i have emaild to the yamaha en kenwood owner;

i'll go and look at it, and listen to it.

the kenwood might be in better condition then i thought, it is the firts owner, and he has a complete vintage kenwood for sell, ls-1600 and ka-801...

so if he has taken care of it, i might grab it. :banana:

i'll keep you informed,

for the cartridge and stylus, i was thinking not spending a fortune, wearing out every 1000 hours, could get costly in the long run. but a 200 dollar cartridge can just pas the wallet, the stylus can be found for less then 100 dollar on the internet, with low dollar course, that comes in my reach.

what would you take as cartridge ?
at440 ? for example

thanx a lot

There's some quality control issues with the AT440MLa right now. If you can find the OCC model, that one is superior and was made before the QC issues. The AT-120 is a fine cart also, and slightly less money. A lot of people like Grado carts of various colors as well. A silver or gold would be in your price range, though I would prefer the AT's. You could also go vintage and pick up a Shure V15 Type II or III and then get the JICO replacement stylus - another great combination. Those are all under 200 dollar options that will give you sound equivalent to spending a lot more.

The cartridge does not really were out. The stylus does. They are replaceable on most moving magnet (MM) like common Audio Technica (AT) and moving iron (MI) types like Grado Prestige (the color series) and such. Most moving coil (MC) do not have replaceable stylus assemblies (some older Pioneers do) so you have spend the whole cost to replace after they are too worn or get them "re-tipped" which can also be pretty costly.

So for initial budget concerns you might do the following: 1.) When you get the TT, look at the cartridge condition. If it looks OK, consider getting a decent new stylus and running that one for a while. I'd replace the headshell wires with new ones like the LPGear SOAR wires to not only renew the contacts and eliminate micro-corrosion issues, but pick up a bit on signal quality. They are only about $15 and with these bits, your existing cartridge will be performing as well as it can. 2.) Then start listening to friends systems and seeing if you can borrow their spare headshells and cartridges. Listen to these on your system and try to figure out which "voice" you like the best.

Once you get to that point, you can start thinking big time upgrade. There are way too many choices to try to guess what you'll like the best on initial start-up. I have had very good luck buying used headshells with old cartridges (with bad/bent stylus) and doing the wire upgrade with new after market stylus. There are some older Shure's out there like the model M91 that I got in a box of stuff that will sound fine. I'll have like $20 max into that one with a ~$9 Parts Express stylus and a good set of used wires out of my spares.

The point is, if you can get a good used cartridge body, you can mount it up and see if you like the sound. If you do, you come back and tell us - we can offer big upgrade options that sound similar. Meanwhile, you are not out much and you have a spare or two :)

Oh and I'm with Hakaplan - that Kenwood is a real nice table if it's in decent shape. Were it me, I'd grab that one and play, even if I continued to look for others (what am I saying - that's what I do :)).

Could you tell me more about the recent quality isssues with the 440MLa? I am considering this cartridge for my Technics 1700 Mk1 in a few months.

Do you think that maybe the AT95 with the Shibata stylus from LPGear would be a smart alternative? It helps that it's a hell of a lot less money at the moment, too.

Alternative #2 is getting a shibata stylus and a universal adaptor for my AT316 p-mount and using that on the 1700.

I'm looking for inner groove tracking that would be as close to a V15v as possible. I enjoy the sound of audio technica cartridges in general. And the V15... I know that AT's supposedly are brighter and Shures are "warmer", but I like them both just the same.

I would mate that with the Denon DL160. I put one on my 1200 last week and it just Kicked the living snot out of a $450.00 Goldring 1042 and my ortofon om20. It is a amazing cartridge for the $

I have a bit of experience with these cartridges and issues. My 440 was one of the ones that kicked off the issue :( It's a pretty good cartridge. Many folks who did not buy last summer and fall have been OK. The problem is contained to one production run. Turntableneedles.com has some good ones in stock and they have been reported OK. They also have a no hassle return policy if it does prove problematic. The issue is Grado like HUM that gets worse with time.

While waiting for my replacement 440 from the new "tested" production run, I installed my spare 440MLa stylus in an AT120e body. That's an OK solution, but it lacks the resolution of the 130 and 440 bodies. The 95e and 71eLC are alternatives. They work. They sound pleasant. They are not the equal of a 440 in terms of resolution or detail. They are also not as "hot" on the top end. The 440MLa can be a bit harsh on some vocals (think Judy Collins or Joan Baez) and jazz sax.

I know it's a bunch more, but there is a world of difference between a 440MLa and an AT150MLX or an AT150Ti (a Japan only cartridge). If you want to explore that country on the cheap. Do an "I want it now" post on eBay for an AT150Ti. There are a couple of vendors who will ship one from Japan for about the same money as a 440MLa. I almost went that way when I got my slightly used 150MLX for the same kind of $$. Hope this helps a bit.

Do a search here for 440 Hum and you'll get plenty of comment to mull over.

Here's the thread on the AT440MLa hum problem:
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=148619&highlight=at440+hum

quick question sorry to hijack this thread but its related. I recently purchased a used technics Sl1210mkII and t came with a Ortofon Concorde Pro S integrated cart/stylus, is this considered HI-FI? id probably need to change the stylus, and was looking at the KAB ones for sale, are those the same as mine with an amazing stylus just added on? so could i get away with just buying a highend stylus and slapping it on there or are those carts special?
thanks

There are some reports of the Concord performing quite well. IIRC it was usually with an OM stylus? The guy to ask would be Fred Longworth (banner add at the bottom of the page - Classic Audio Repair) - he's an Ortofon dealer and has used the brand for years :)