Newbie question

[MVWINE]

I posted this over at "vintage" but it was suggested that I post here:

O.K., I'm new to this site, but not to audio. Since this board seems to have a large knowledgable vintage group, I have a question that I'd like to pose.

I am rebuilding my system, and am looking at tube amps. How would you compare the vintage items with newer tube equipment? The more specific comparisons, the better - for instance: " I compared an ST70 to an Antique Sound Labs AQ-1003DT, and I thought - etc."

I have a reasonable idea of how the newer stuff sounds, but have zero experience with the vintage gear, and want to keep all of my options open. I also think it would be cool to have an amp from the 60's in my system, but only if the sound was there.

Thanks, you guys have already made me feel very welcome!

[Wardsweb]

I'm a Tubie Newbie too. So, come on guys give us the scoop. It is my understanding that alot of vintage tube stuff could use some upgrading; caps, resistors, tubes... The big upside is you can save big bucks and have the satisfaction of doing some stuff yourself. You get to use the " I Made This" statement.:D

[gonefishin]

Hi Wine...Wish I could give you advice on restoring a piece of vintage (tube) gear...but I cannot. Luckly there are others here who can help you...or at least get you going in the right direction.

What I can help you with is the sound of tube amps...while I have not heard all (who has), I have heard several...new, vintage and homemade. I have heard good vintage/restored tube amps and I have heard good new versions...I think your really a winner either way you go. Some of the old stuff is really great!...and many of the design are simply timeless...they were great then...and will be great in years to come. But with this comes age...and many tube amps will need a "face lift" of caps and cleaning an such. There are also new designs that are good as well...with all new parts. Which is good...but new tube amps can get a little pricey. This is something you've got to figure out what direction you will want to go.

There are also some good inexpensive intro tube amps out there...these are good to give you an idea of tubes...without much price. Rember that these are intro tube amps...and while they are a good inexpensive way to get into tubes...there are many times better designs out there (aren't there always tho!)

A good question to ask yourself is...what will match well with my speakers...(what speakers do you have?). What will match well with my listening preferences and room...both in music and volume...(How loud do you listen to music...how big of a room...what type of music?)

well...welcome aboard...and I hope you enjoy the ride...tubes are great! but hey...SS is pretty good too...hmmm...I enjoy listening to music on my truck cd too...or on a boombox...or...hey maybe I'm beginin' to see a pattern here ;)

enjoy!

[MVWINE]

Thanks, gonefishin- my room is small, 12x13, and my current speakers are AR PS2062's (8 ohm, 90db). They will be my next upgrade after the amp, and depending on the amp I get, I will replace them with appropriately sensitive speakers.

One thought I have had is to get an ASL MG-SI15DT, wich is 15wpc pentode, 5w triode, to be able to get a flavor of each. I don't listen real loud, so I'm thinking 15-20 wpc should be enough to get me by now, and I'll get more efficient speakers later.

There are also used Golden Tube Audio SE-40's showing up regularly in the same price range, which I could use a passive attenuator with, and have plenty of power.

But I don't know how either one would compare to a vintage piece.

[Rob]

Gonefishin is right. Before you can select the tube amp that is right for you you need to assess the efficiency of your speakers, type of speakers (horn loaded or other), the size of the room, how loud you like it and what kind of music you mostly listen to.

Hint: Tubes on horns clearly rule and rule clearly! :)

Rob

[steamshooter]

This may not apply:dunno: I have what is refered to as a"Namograph for calculating loudness and power requirements of sound systems".This is in a book dated 1952 titled The Recording And Reproduction Of Sound by Oliver Read. It has values given for different absorption coefficients in your room such as wood areas are given a value and so are drapes, cushy sofas, ect. You go through these calculations to arrive at an approx. reverberation time for a given room.
Then you go over to the next graph and enter things like speaker efficiency and room volume, and dbs required. Then it gives you a figure for the wattage needed.

There is a question in here I promise.;)

I realize in 1952 you (not me, I'm too young) did not have stereo.:D So, this only applies to mono.

Would this type of calculation (or for that matter, any of the principals in the book) still apply today?
Would you just double your results for "wattage needed" to get stereo? Am I wasting time even reading something like this?

Dazed and Confused
Brad

[MVWINE]

Steamshooter, I would think that you'd add 3db to the mono result, since you have another speaker putting out the same wattage. Even though left and right signals aren't the same, this should be close enough.

[Thatch_Ear]

A Dyna ST-70 against an ASL what ever it was (auctually knowing it is a PP EL34 or a SE 300B is much more helpfull than the model number on the new gear) is not a fair contest. WW has a modded ST-70 but stock they are no great shakes against some of the other brands that were factory built at the same time. So the ASL all things being equal should sound better than a kit from 40 years ago.
Having stuck my neck out on that if you upgraded a ST-70 to todays specs(RCA plugs, Binding Posts, caps and ran it in triode) and were using the same type of tubes it came with it could well blow the ASL out of the water.
I am saying this having never heard a modded ST-70 or its ASL equivilant.
The ASLs have a great price point but I would hazzard a guess that upgrades would be needed to get one of them up and running with the better gear. At this point in time most Chinese tubes are not that good. I don't know anything about their caps but imagine their transformers are good. Some of the US companies are having their tube amps built in China. Buying a pair of ASL SET mono blocks at this point in time I would consider a good move. You are mainly interested in the quality of the transformers because all the rest can be changed. The Chinese are riding bicycles to work now, but that will change. They are trying to get into the market with price point and that will change.
Another thing to think about is that practically every PP amp built in the last 50 years and is being built today is based on the same circuit. The Williamson Circuit. Every piece of PP is basically equal untill you start looking at the quality of the parts it was made with.
An ASL PP EL34 is more like a Dyna ST-70 than it is different.

[WildWest]

MVWINE you got some great input here. I can't add to much more than was already said. As Thatch mentioned, I have a modded PP Dynaco ST70 only by virtue that it was dropped into my lap bone stock and the upgrades and parts available to it on line was VERY deep. Made the whole thing rather easy. It was built to a price point in it's time and some of the early models had very desirable hand wound output transformers. Other than that, it didn't have much on other amps really.

If I was never given that Dyna and was looking for that beautiful tube sound I likely would tackle one of the many kits available on line these days. PP or SET, hard to say but I might be inclined to base that on my speakers and how much slam I needed in the music I listen to.

[Thatch_Ear]

MV,
I case you didn't know it one of the last engineers for Altec that is still working on Altec gear is the in OK City. Bill H at Great Plains audio. I would make contact with and let him kmow your are inclined towards tubes.
You will make no steals cause Bill is a pro but I would bet you could get a tailored speaker system good for as long as it was not abused and Bill is in business.
You want to go SE you can get the one of the best speaker systems made that will run on one watt and shake your house. Go DIY on amp and cabinets and you can make yourself a $30 K quality setup for around $3k and a lot of work.
Besides the really cool storms you get I think Great Plains Audio is a highlight of living in Oklahoma.
I also love the view from the top of Mt Scott, Turner Falls in the early 60s, the Canadian in flood and seeing Texas woop OU at the Cotton Bowl come October.(My Dad's a Sooner EE and I lived in OK twice, Midwest City and Norman)

[MVWINE]

Thanks for the replies - Thatch_Ear, your post was very helpful. I have, indeed, considered some of the current tube kits, and that may be the way I go. It's been a while since I slung some solder, but I bet it'll come back to me. I built a Hafler DH-100 pre-amp kit back in the 80's, but it didn't have the added excitement of lethal voltages!

You also confimred what I had concluded- the quality of the OPT's is the ultimate limiting factor on the quality of the amp. The Consonance Ella kit looks like a good one, and at 40 wpc, it should power just about any speaker I'd consider for my small room.

I may have to give Great Plains Audio a call. I know where they are located, but I have never spoken to anyone there.

BTW - this summer I took my 4-year-old to Mt. Scott. He thoroughly enjoyed it. A bit disconcerting, though, when you hear what sounds like thunder, and realize that it's the artillery from the range next door at Ft. Sill!

[gonefishin]

The Ella Sounds pretty good...this would be a great first tube amp. Just be warned...that thing does weigh a TON.

you can give Kevin a call, at DIYCable (http://www.diycable.com/), for ordering information...if you chose to go this route. He's a great guy who is also helpful...if you get stuck while building it...you can post a question here (http://www.harmonicdiscord.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=19) , He and Brian Cherry check that forum regularly.

This is not the only kit out there...but I do know the amp and the person...and I can recommend both of them.

keep us updated!

[MikE]

Whichever path you choose - vintage or current production - I'd stay away from GTA products. I owned their SE-40 (nice amp) and while it provided me pleasure, I found much better (albeit more $$$) products elsewhere. Besides the company is defunct and there have been multiple reliability problems, and it's a bitch to bias.

Regarding your query, I'd lean toward a NEW amp. There are plenty of very nice examples for not alot of dough. One question you should ask yourself is which output tube do you prefer - sonically? The 300b, 2a3 or 45 if your thinking of going SET. And have you decided even on that question; SET or PP? Not all tube types or topologies sound alike, you should explore that first, then narrow your choices within the type selected.

If you do your homework you may avoid taking alot of unneccessary mini-steps as you buy one amp only to find it not exactly what you need/want. Then again, the journey can be half the fun also, as there is no rush to get to the finish line. Net-polling is fun and can be helpful but nothing replaces actually listening, especially IYS.

MikE