Power Conditioner?

[thefragger]

I've been debating with myself whether or not to buy a power conditioner for my meagre setup. I've been reading here and there that they do have benefits in the sound of the music and for the overall health of the gear, but there's one argument that's strong in my head, and I have yet to find an answer to yet;

Wasn't power dirtier 30 to 40 years ago, when much of my gear was designed? When comparing power lines from then and now, I would assume that we would have cleaner lines in this day and age.

Of course, I could be wrong. I just graduated from an engineering design program and we were taught to design everything to *just* within what was required, to save money (I think it's baloney). Back in those days, (from my observations / frustrations) if you designed something, it was meant to survive two more world wars, while contributing to the deterioration of the ozone layer as much as possible.

Am I making sense?


Philip.

[whoaru99]

Personally, I'm not a big believer in power conditioners.

Perhaps I would be more of a proponent if I thought there was something wrong with my power, or had some sort of obvious symptom that a conditioner could resolve.

I think too many people buy them to fix a problem that doesn't exist. YMMV.

[thunderroad]

I have to agree with whoaru99, in that I'm not a big believer in power conditioners either unless you have an identified power quality problem that you are trying to correct. Power quality problems can potentially fall into one of four catagories: frequency; voltage, low or high; power factor; and line noise or transients. Of all these potential issues, to my knowledge, the only one that the commercial power conditioners address is the line noise or spikes. Some of the nicer and much more expensive conditioners may also include isolation transformers that add protection against ground-loops and also increased filtering as well.

[Arkay]

In my experience, isolation transformers and power conditioners DO improve sound... but I live in a big city with a very reliable but "dirty" (in terms of noise, I think in part because everything is so crammed together) grid. I think it depends a lot on where you live, and what kind of power you have coming in in the first place. Also what else you are running in your home (air conditioners, fans, dimmers, etc...).

[whoaru99]

The question really isn't can power conditioners improve sound, the question is really whether or not one will in your circumstances.

As far as power goes, I'd stay it's probably more reliable today but possibly noiser today (more electronic gizmos and gadgets).

The basis for improvement in sound from a power conditioner starts with the basic assumption that the power supply in your gear is flawed or incompetent at converting AC to DC, yes?

[Fred Sanford]

For what it's worth, I designed/installed/serviced high-end residential AV systems for about 8-10 years in NYC, generally running in the $100,000 to $1,000,000 range. Here's the top 3 causes of service calls that we ran into:

1] Heat. Inadequate ventilation from closed doors, shelved or stacked equipment, paperwork or other stuff sitting on components, CATV boxes generating heat 24/7.

2] Power issues. Granted, almost everything we install these days has a processor in it (TiVo/Server/Surround Receiver/CATV/DSS/control systems/etc.), but it was a very real issue and cost us a lot less to sell/install power conditioners at cost or at a loss than deal with the service calls. Trouble was, there was never any room for them, and cramming them in afterwards often caused problem # 1:thumbsdn:.

3] Children.

There y'go...

je (UPS & surge suppression on house system & servers, surge suppression on each AV/theater system here, plus the recording studio)

[whoaru99]

2] Power issues. Granted, almost everything we install these days has a processor in it (TiVo/Server/Surround Receiver/CATV/DSS/control systems/etc.), but it was a very real issue and cost us a lot less to sell/install power conditioners at cost or at a loss than deal with the service calls. Trouble was, there was never any room for them, and cramming them in afterwards often caused problem # 1:thumbsdn:.



What did the conditioners fix that reduced your service calls?

[SpruceMoose]

i run UPSes (is that a word?) on all my electronic gear, audio, video, PC, etc. Not for the power conditioning per se, although they are all filtered, but for the protection from un-wanted, rapid power cycling when we get a power glitch. thats really rough on power supply capacitors.

[drknstrmyknight]

I live in a 30's era house with 50's era wiring.
Something is on our lines that drives gear nuts.
Without UPS or filters:

Boston Acoustics Receptor won't turn on without being dis connected - re connected

Squeezebox goes nuts or freezes

Tube amps pick up lots of noise, clicks and pops.

Tube tuners - especially on AM - have a tremendous amount of static.

In the wee hours and on the weekends these phenomenon are less pronounced.

No, I don't have an arc welder and am not working on a flux capacitance project

[Rodzilla]

having just recently installed a power conditioner[furman elite 15 power factor]i really gotta say you'd probably have to try one before deciding it's of no use to you...i had no obvious power problems,i was hoping that i might hear some improvement,but one of my primary reasons was really just to provide some protection for the substantial investment in my gear,and to also clean up my wiring by having enough outlets for everything in one spot :)

the furman provides protection,makes everything neat,looks cool..AND cleaned up my sound much more than i had hoped it might...a very worthwhile purchase in every way!that's not to say that every P/C will make an improvement in every situation...but it's an avenue worth exploring,just to find out for yourself in your situation

[lunchmeat]

I worked in large telecom installations for almost 26 years and installed my fair share of power conditioners. Mainly ONEACS. They were especially helpful with large PBXs, where a drop or surge of AC voltage may cause the system to restart, among other problems. I tend to agree with the other posters who feel they are unnecessary in most audio applications. A well made surge suppressor can provide me with peace of mind. I can also appreciate how people feel about their equipment so in the end, go for what feels the best. You can't really lose on this one.

[Dark Knight]

Greetings.

I just got a surge protector because a number of homes in my area have had electrical equipment get destroyed because of problems associated with a nearby substation. Now that I have invested hard-fought savings in a vintage system, I want to protect it. Well, I got the surge protector and there appeared to be a "little" more clarity or presence at the lower volumes. I could not figure out what was really different. It was only by accident when I was separating the packaging for recycling that I discovered that I purchased a DYNEX surge protector that also includes a clean power function. So, I guess it was sort of a "blind" test in as much as I did not know that I had bought a unit with that capability and could hear a noticible differece, even if it was a small magnitude. I would definately not buy a clean power unit just for that.

DK

[sleddogman]

I use both Oneac and Powervar isolation/conditioner units that I've picked up by bargain hunting eBay and consider them both cheap insurance and peace of mind, especially during bad weather. I do perceive a difference with gear connected to them.

Just keep in mind to multiply the VA (Volt Amp) rating by 0.6 to get the safe effective Wattage that the unit will support. For example, my $100 Oneac CB1120 is 16 amps max at 1.92 kVA (1920 VA) unit safely handles a total load of 1152 watts and the $60 Powervar ABC1000-11 is 10 amps max at 1200 VA (720 watts.)

[thefragger]

I live in a house that was built in the early 50s. We recently renovated and added to the side of the house. Right now my office is the new part of the house. The line that my computer and stereo equipment get power from I ran myself, personally.

My gear used to be in the old side. The only thing I notice is that in the old side, all the grounds are floating (!!!), as indicated by a little red light on my surge protector.

I notice no difference between the old and the new wiring, running through the same power bar. I actually don't know if it includes a filter because the packaging was tossed years ago.

Interesting.


Philip.

[Mr. Lin]

You should always at least have a surge protector, but I can also tell you that the cheap ($45) Monster clean circuit surge protector/power conditioner did make a noticeable improvement. Again, YMMV, but here we have "dirty" AC, the lights flicker when the washing machine starts, that sort of thing.

[Blue Shadow]

I picked up a Tice Power Block needing work recently. I fixed it up and put it in the system in place of the Monster 3500II that were all the rage (cheap) a few years ago. Moved the Monster to the family room TV system today after changing some unswitched outlets to switched and I think the picture (fiber optic, lo def system) is much improved.

I did not a/b the stereo with and without the monster so I'll have to do that with the Tice. The Tice does audio, the monster is more directed to video so the units are in their element.

[drknstrmyknight]

My lights flicker when your washer starts

[Fred Sanford]

What did the conditioners fix that reduced your service calls?

The modern, complex systems are all about being in sync- knowing for sure what state everything is in so that when you say "DVD" the components do the 17 things they need to do in order to watch a DVD (all power states to on or off as needed, correct inputs on rcvr/tv/processors, etc.). The conditioners mostly vastly reduced the amount of times that components needed re-boots or re-mapping. These were becoming (more often) network devices as well, so re-boots or IP conflicts could wreak havoc. Cleaner power also improved video quality and reduced stray snaps/crackles/pops.

Keep in mind that the higher-end audiophile rooms sometimes kept the power amps on 24/7, you didn't want the sources or selectors blinking on & off with brownouts, either. Whole-house systems potentially had multiple 12-zone amps on whenever any single zone was on, you didn't want them glitching.

Generally, everything was quieter, more reliable, and calls were significantly reduced.

Another relevant point would be that 99% of my installations were either in Manhattan skyscrapers/penthouses or ranch-sized "complexes" in Hamptons or other toney 'burbs of NYC. The other 1% were entire islands or villas owned by these folks. These either had the NYC issues (brownouts from construction & power demand & old building cabling) or the rural issues (brownouts from Mother Nature or old pole cabling to the house). Mother Nature still wins sometimes, though. We had one guy, if memory serves, invest in over $100K of lightning protection, and he took a ~$400K hit in one bad storm. Pennies to him, but he was still quite annoyed.

je

[iLUVanalog]

the wiring in my house is due for an update, so i absolutely need power conditioners. i have a monster power 1600 and a 3600....both in my bedroom. i use the 1600 for the video system and the 3600 for audio-only system.

[westend]

The modern, complex systems are all about being in sync- knowing for sure what state everything is in so that when you say "DVD" the components do the 17 things they need to do in order to watch a DVD (all power states to on or off as needed, correct inputs on rcvr/tv/processors, etc.). The conditioners mostly vastly reduced the amount of times that components needed re-boots or re-mapping. These were becoming (more often) network devices as well, so re-boots or IP conflicts could wreak havoc. Cleaner power also improved video quality and reduced stray snaps/crackles/pops.

Keep in mind that the higher-end audiophile rooms sometimes kept the power amps on 24/7, you didn't want the sources or selectors blinking on & off with brownouts, either. Whole-house systems potentially had multiple 12-zone amps on whenever any single zone was on, you didn't want them glitching.

Generally, everything was quieter, more reliable, and calls were significantly reduced.

Another relevant point would be that 99% of my installations were either in Manhattan skyscrapers/penthouses or ranch-sized "complexes" in Hamptons or other toney 'burbs of NYC. The other 1% were entire islands or villas owned by these folks. These either had the NYC issues (brownouts from construction & power demand & old building cabling) or the rural issues (brownouts from Mother Nature or old pole cabling to the house). Mother Nature still wins sometimes, though. We had one guy, if memory serves, invest in over $100K of lightning protection, and he took a ~$400K hit in one bad storm. Pennies to him, but he was still quite annoyed.

jeInteresting and I'm in total agreement about Mother Nature. We live in the ex-urbs and the substaion is 20+ mi. from our neighborhood. Everytime a squirrel lands on a wire or a branch falls or a drunk hits a pole the relays do their usual three cycles and then turn off. Those three low powered cycles are the killers of everything electronic. I run surge protection on everything in the house. Since they moved the substation out so far and I added the surge protectors all has been good (if you don't mind resetting all your clocks every other week). I am considering a conditioner for the new main system I'm building. One can't spend enough to wring out the best in one's gear.:D

[classic carl]

I recently bought a Furman Elite-15 DMi. I have my entire 2 channel system plugged into it and my HT system, including my TV and powered sub. There are 12 outlets in the back and 1 on the front panel. I have my cable TV running thru it too. This thing is built like a tank and the blue LED's are way cool. :smoke:

http://www.furmansound.com/product.php?div=02&id=ELITE-15DMi

[Rodzilla]

I recently bought a Furman Elite-15 DMi. I have my entire 2 channel system plugged into it and my HT system, including my TV and powered sub. There are 12 outlets in the back and 1 on the front panel. I have my cable TV running thru it too. This thing is built like a tank and the blue LED's are way cool. :smoke:

http://www.furmansound.com/product.php?div=02&id=ELITE-15DMi


how do you find the 15DMI from a sound point of view?i considered getting one as i really liked the meters :) but having experienced some of the negatives that some P/C's can do to a power amp's sound,thought the 15PF with it's low impedance "power factor" outlets was more in line with what i wanted in a P/C...i must say i am still in shock at the improvement it brings to my system...if only furman made a 15DMPF...i woulda paid more for that and had the meters too :)

[ShaneC]

I have a Monster HTFS 500 (got it for free) going into the wall, and a power strip coming off of it.

I still haven't heard any audible improvements, and my lil' desk light still dims when I power on just the amp. In short, I'll say this is simply just an overpriced surge protector.

I wonder if a nice lil' APC UPS setup would be more beneficial?

[Nikko75]

I just graduated from an engineering design program and we were taught to design everything to *just* within what was required, to save money (I think it's baloney).
Am I making sense?
Philip. Absolutely. Just look around. Almost every electronic device I've owned was a complete piece of utter shit unless its older than I am or costs a kings ransom. They train us to think within the box and make it last just long enough that the warranty runs out. I beg to differ and break the mass production university rules.

[ShaneC]

Absolutely. Just look around. Almost every electronic device I've owned was a complete piece of utter shit unless its older than I am or costs a kings ransom. They train us to think within the box and make it last just long enough that the warranty runs out. I beg to differ and break the university rules.

Ironically, some of the "newer" (ie. Early '90s on) electronics that held up the best for me were usually some of the cheaper ones. I think I still have a Sanyo boombox (dual cassette deck, CD tray, sleep timer, alarm, auto-record etc) that would still work to this day if it hadn't been dropped too many times during too many moves.

[Nikko75]

I must be cursed. I just turn it on and all I need to do is wait... something goes wrong. Sometimes it's stupid things like capacitors in power supplies etc.

In the country I haven't needed a power conditioner but when I was in the city I could barely even listen to music. All I could hear was fizzing intermodulated in the music.

[aaroncomer]

Great discussion, and very timely for me, as I've been wondering if a good power conditioner would make any difference.

I just tried a simple test. Our home is less than 3 years old, and the neighborhood circuits are less than 5 years old, in ground, so "old home wiring" isn't a consideration... that doesn't mean our power is "clean", but simply eliminates one variable.

I have an old Tripp-Lite Isobar noise filter / surge suppressor, certainly NOT a high end power conditioner, but a solid unit.

Just 10 minutes ago I tried an A/B listening test with a very good CD recording of 1812 Overture, because it has some very silent portions at the beginning that one can hear some audible "noise/hiss"...

In short, when running through the Isobar noise filter, there is an audible reduction in the noise, but also the noise is more of a faint "smoother" hiss, whereas without it, the noise is probably 25% louder and has some faint "pops" if I listen very closely to the tweeters.

NOT a scientific test by any means, and most of the noise is likely in the recording, but I hear a definite difference. Is it enough to be able to tell with normal, louder recordings? Not likely, but it makes me wonder about the virtues of a really good line conditioner.

[thunderroad]

Some years ago my main system was built around a McIntosh C-28 preamp and an MC 2300 amplifier. On extremely hot 100+ degree days (the few we have) the distribution system voltage here would sag due to heavy demand and the sound of my 2300 would suffer, by becoming real thin and lose its richness. I was able to trace this to low line voltage. Later on when I upgraded to a 7270 and later a 2600, neither one of these amps experienced this effect. I suspect the internal power supply in the newer amps is much better regulated that the 2300 and able to stablize the power supply voltage better so the sound of these amps wasnt effected. Unfortunately, to my knowledge, no consumer power conditioner addresses this issue by having the capability to boost or buck voltage. They usually limit their effect to cleaning up line transients, spikes, and line noise, as well as providing surge protection. Some of these are very, very good at cleaning up the line supply, but cannot address other issues such as voltage support, power factor correction, or possibly frequency issues. They can be very good at what they do, but they are limited in what capability they have.

[Rodzilla]

thunderroad...you need to look at some of the apc models[also rebadged for rotel]these do voltage regulation up and down to some degree as well as provide the possiblilty of UPS capability too for a "reasonable" price...my furman model is actually named the "elite 15 POWER FACTOR"...tho it's unclear to me if what it does inside is actually correct for power factor in the proper engineering sense or if they're just using that name for some other technology they've developed...the higher end furmans are a whole 'nother ballgame dealing with all these issues but are pretty spendy

[classic carl]

how do you find the 15DMI from a sound point of view?i considered getting one as i really liked the meters :) but having experienced some of the negatives that some P/C's can do to a power amp's sound,thought the 15PF with it's low impedance "power factor" outlets was more in line with what i wanted in a P/C...i must say i am still in shock at the improvement it brings to my system...if only furman made a 15DMPF...i woulda paid more for that and had the meters too :)

I really can't say that I've noticed any difference in the sound of my system, good or bad. I basically bought the P/C for piece of mind and to keep all of my AC plugs in the same outlet without daisy chaining a bunch of power strips. Obviously, an A/B test with or without the P/C is out of the question, but I'm totally pleased with the Furman and I don't need to turn on any lights when I enter the room after dark. The LED's have a hi/lo dimmer switch, but at the low setting I can't read them from across the room, so I keep them on high. My voltage meter reads between 114 and 119 volts and the amp meter varies depending what I have turned on. It pegs to about 7.0 amps when I turn on my Crown DC-300A, but immediately drops to about 2.0 if the two channel stuff is all that's on and about 2.5 if the TV is on without sound. The highest continuous load I've seen has been about 4.1 amps, but my son was watching TV and listening thru headphones plugged into the HT receiver while I had the music cranked to live levels on the Crown.

BTW, I have a friend who is a Furman dealer and he got me a great deal on mine...20% less than anywhere on the internet. I also bought a Furman PL-Plus Series II for my son's bass head. His band plays at some real holes in the wall and his equipment is too expensive to leave to chance.

[Blue Shadow]

I guess these last few posts bring on the question of what voltage is 'normal' in your area. I now the East Bay has the high temps and a few years ago there were significant brownouts. I was not there then.

I'm in SE PA and see 120 to 123 most of the time on the volt meter on the 3500. The Tice (now my audio power conditioner) has the ability to go up or down about 10% from line as well as cap coupled and non-cap coupled line voltage, depending on the switch positions.

With 120+V most of the time, I feel no need to use either of the ±10% selections. 132 is too high and 109 is ok but 120 is good.

Still liking the improvement in the video system with the 3500.