Should I go from 6900 to 402?

[anton]

Brought this up in my upgrade thread recently but decided to discuss this specifically here - my current set up is 301/6900/Sonus Faber Grand Pianos and it sounds awesome. Smooth and analogue like. If anything is left desired, well, maybe...:scratch2:maybe:scratch2: an even bigger soundstage, dynamics and deeper punchier bass. Would I gain this from 402? What can I expec from adding 402 in terms of sound? I allready heard some sceptical voices - one dude on audiogon especially thinks that 6900 is as good as separates only cheaper. I plan to use 6900 as a pre for the time being until I can find myself a fully balanced Mac pre to replace it. Also, if I use 6900 with 402 should I connect em with a balanced IC instead of RCA? I know that 6900 is not fully balanced but buying another serious expencive RCA IC (my current one Acoustic Zen Silver Reference II) for the temperary use only to sell it later when 6900 is replaced by a C200 or 500 is rather stupid...:scratch2:

[2000B King]

Hi Anton,

If your current setup fits and matches your needs, no point looking beyond cause it will be one big circle of upgrades .....

However, should you rally decide, there are many Mac combos you can go for based on your needs as well as the amount you want to invest.

The older issue Absolute Sound did have a write up on the combos you mentioned and should be a good guide.

Cheers!

[DR. JAM]

Save your money and go for the 501's. I have both and now I'm thinking of trading-in my 402 for another pair of 501's. That is how good they are.

[william.keith]

my current set up is 301/6900/Sonus Faber Grand Pianos and it sounds awesome.

Are you expecting something beyond awesome? Your speakers are only rated to handle 200 watts which is equal to the MA6900.

[anton]

Are you expecting something beyond awesome? Your speakers are only rated to handle 200 watts which is equal to the MA6900.

Awesome so far but I'm not sure it's their limit. As for power handling - doesn't everybody say that more powerful amp is highly unlikely to damage the speakers but would simply give you more effortless, dynamic sound? I sure as hell don't use 6900's 200 Wt now but nobody from the 402 or 501 club on this forum uses 400 or 500 Wt either. They just enjoy the cleaner, more musical sound, don't they? Or am I mistaken?

[Victor]

As for power handling - doesn't everybody say that more powerful amp is highly unlikely to damage the speakers but would simply give you more effortless, dynamic sound? I sure as hell don't use 6900's 200 Wt now but nobody from the 402 or 501 club on this forum uses 400 or 500 Wt either. They just enjoy the cleaner, more musical sound, don't they? Or am I mistaken?
Yes, I agree with this statement.

With my MC501s I'm almost always under 5 watts and I'm usually under 1 watt. Even though I'm only using a fraction of the power of MC501s I found in my system the MC501s are a significant improvement over the MC402. :yes:

If you have the room and money I would recommend keeping your MA6900 until you can get some MC501s.

[anton]

Yes, I agree with this statement.

With my MC501s I'm almost always under 5 watts and I'm usually under 1 watt. Even though I'm only using a fraction of the power of MC501s I found in my system the MC501s are a significant improvement over the MC402. :yes:

If you have the room and money I would recommend keeping your MA6900 until you can get some MC501s.

Victor, I know the consensus is that 501 is seriously better than 402 but I never thought that 402 is a very minor improvement over 6900?:scratch2: I would love to get 501's (more than anything!) but my the sane part of my mind tells me that 12 000$ monoblocks look like a serious overkill with $3000 speakers, great as they are. If I had enough space between my sofa and the wall I would rather spend the $$ on Cremonas or something - I'm fully aware that speakers upgrade makes much bigger change than any amp upgrade. Unfortunately I have not enough space for any bigger speakers so the amps is the only option if I want to go up.


Also to get back to the question from the first post - should I use balanced IC between 6900 and the balanced power amp (402 or 501) knowing that 6900 is not fully balanced?

[Victor]

Also to get back to the question from the first post - should I use balanced IC between 6900 and the balanced power amp (402 or 501) knowing that 6900 is not fully balanced?
Unless your interconnects are very long (over 10 feet) I doubt you would hear much difference between balanced or RCA interconnects. I would just use what you have.

[PHC1]

I would love to get 501's (more than anything!) but my the sane part of my mind tells me that 12 000$ monoblocks look like a serious overkill with $3000 speakers, great as they are. If I had enough space between my sofa and the wall I would rather spend the $$ on Cremonas or something - I'm fully aware that speakers upgrade makes much bigger change than any amp upgrade. Unfortunately I have not enough space for any bigger speakers so the amps is the only option if I want to go up.


Also to get back to the question from the first post - should I use balanced IC between 6900 and the balanced power amp (402 or 501) knowing that 6900 is not fully balanced?

Don't be surprised if your speakers allow you to hear a difference with the 501s. I used my $10k 501s with $4k Cremona Auditors and when lesser/different amps where introduced, the difference was very audible.

I would also use RCA with gear that is not truly balanced all the way through as the balanced route introduces extra circuitry in the audio path. Unless of course you have to run very long lengths as Victor posted above.

[Daytripper]

Anton, Do you plan on using the preamp in the 6900? That may be a bigger impediment to better sound than the difference between a 401 or a pair of 501's JMO.

Mc401,C2300,MCD201 & SF GPH

Robert

[2uberoller]

First get better speakers. Your stereo can only sound as good as your speakers, which introduces the most amount of distortion into your system. If your listening to music at less than 50 watts it does not make sense to get the 501's. By the way you should be able to drive almost any pair of speakers with your 6900. If you want to upgrade to separates so you can have the sound of a tube pre-amp/solid state amp., that makes sense. I compared the mc252, mc401 and 6900 and could not hear much of a difference, they all sounded great. the 501's might make sense if you have a large room and/or high ceilings. I already had a amp from my old system and bought the tube pre-amp., c220 first. Then I upgrade the amp from my old system. If I did not already have components from my old system I would have purchased the 6900.

[anton]

Anton, Do you plan on using the preamp in the 6900? That may be a bigger impediment to better sound than the difference between a 401 or a pair of 501's JMO.

Mc401,C2300,MCD201 & SF GPH

Robert

I'll use 6900 as a pre for the time being as I want to upgrade to fully balanced Mac pre and it's a bit out of reach now.

[anton]

Don't be surprised if your speakers allow you to hear a difference with the 501s. I used my $10k 501s with $4k Cremona Auditors and when lesser/different amps where introduced, the difference was very audible.

I would also use RCA with gear that is not truly balanced all the way through as the balanced route introduces extra circuitry in the audio path. Unless of course you have to run very long lengths as Victor posted above.

The problem is that I don't have an extra high quality RCA IC now and I don't want to buy one just for the temperary use,since I want to built a fully balanced system in the end anyway. If I buy a balanced one would the sound be noticebly inferior with 6900?

[anton]

First get better speakers. Your stereo can only sound as good as your speakers, which introduces the most amount of distortion into your system. If your listening to music at less than 50 watts it does not make sense to get the 501's. By the way you should be able to drive almost any pair of speakers with your 6900. If you want to upgrade to separates so you can have the sound of a tube pre-amp/solid state amp., that makes sense. I compared the mc252, mc401 and 6900 and could not hear much of a difference, they all sounded great. the 501's might make sense if you have a large room and/or high ceilings. I already had a amp from my old system and bought the tube pre-amp., c220 first. Then I upgrade the amp from my old system. If I did not already have components from my old system I would have purchased the 6900.

Entdoc, I have a large room indeed despite the small distance between the sofa and the wall. There are only 330 cm between my ears and the wall (270 between my ears and the front panel of the speakers) but the room itself is over 40 sq.m. Now I don't want a tube pre as the sound is allready incredibly warm and musical, I'd rather have more punch and dynamics and anyway I prefer the sound of Mac SS over tubes.

[william.keith]

First get better speakers. Your stereo can only sound as good as your speakers, which introduces the most amount of distortion into your system. If your listening to music at less than 50 watts it does not make sense to get the 501's. By the way you should be able to drive almost any pair of speakers with your 6900. If you want to upgrade to separates so you can have the sound of a tube pre-amp/solid state amp., that makes sense. I compared the mc252, mc401 and 6900 and could not hear much of a difference, they all sounded great. the 501's might make sense if you have a large room and/or high ceilings. I already had a amp from my old system and bought the tube pre-amp., c220 first. Then I upgrade the amp from my old system. If I did not already have components from my old system I would have purchased the 6900.

Ever now and then there is a post like this one that speaks the truth and makes common sense. If you want to move to the next level then you need to consider a real change, something like the MC1201 amp and XRT1K speaker. Otherwise, you are just working around the edges with audiophile minutia.

[anton]

I spoke with a dealer today and he suggested that 301 straight to 402 would sound better than with 6900 as a pre. So he said sell 6900 and start saving for C500 which would give a spectacular improvement plus a fully balanced system...What do you guys think?

[Chad.Wagner]

I spoke with a dealer today and he suggested that 301 straight to 402 would sound better than with 6900 as a pre. So he said sell 6900 and start saving for C500 which would give a spectacular improvement plus a fully balanced system...What do you guys think?

I agree, but you may just want to consider the MDA1000 with MC501s using your existing transport.

[anton]

I agree, but you may just want to consider the MDA1000 with MC501s using your existing transport.

I would love to get MC501s but they are a bit out of my reach at the moment. As for MDA1000 - I love the SACD playback of 301 and also plan to use a turntable in the future so I guess it would still need a pre.

[Daytripper]

What is it that a fully balanced system will do for you? It seems that many of the guys with the best (most expensive) Mcintosh gear like single ended better, unless they have a very noisy environment.

A 301 straight into a 402 sounds like a good idea, And would be a lower cost definite improvement(with the money from the 6900) over your current system, That you could build on in the future should you so desire.

Robert

[Victor]

I spoke with a dealer today and he suggested that 301 straight to 402 would sound better than with 6900 as a pre. So he said sell 6900 and start saving for C500 which would give a spectacular improvement plus a fully balanced system...What do you guys think?
This sounds like a GREAT idea. :yes:

[Victor]

What is it that a fully balanced system will do for you?
When I went to a fully balanced system the sound improvement was AMAZING. Everything was much clearer with better separation of the sounds. The small "micro dynamics" were what improved the most, like being easily able to tell when a drummer is using a brush on a snare drum.

I'm not sure if these improvements had more to do with keeping the signal balanced from source to speakers or it was just the improved equipment used (C2200-C1000T). I do know that I'm keeping things balanced in my system from now on. :yes:

[j3brow]

I spoke with a dealer today and he suggested that 301 straight to 402 would sound better than with 6900 as a pre. So he said sell 6900 and start saving for C500 which would give a sectacular improvement plus a fully balanced system...What do you guys think?

I think this is a well thought out plan of action. I pulled the trigger on a demo 301 today and it sounds absolutely fantastic with my c2300 and mc402. it KILLS my musical fidelity A5 cdp....i can only imagine how much better my system might sound with a C500 and balanced cables.

Actually...I can't imagine my room sounding any better than it does right now. "the girl in the OTHER room" nah...Diana krall is in MY room (that's a very good thing).

[Know_Talent]

First get better speakers. Your stereo can only sound as good as your speakers, which introduces the most amount of distortion into your system. If your listening to music at less than 50 watts it does not make sense to get the 501's. By the way you should be able to drive almost any pair of speakers with your 6900. If you want to upgrade to separates so you can have the sound of a tube pre-amp/solid state amp., that makes sense. I compared the mc252, mc401 and 6900 and could not hear much of a difference, they all sounded great. the 501's might make sense if you have a large room and/or high ceilings. I already had a amp from my old system and bought the tube pre-amp., c220 first. Then I upgrade the amp from my old system. If I did not already have components from my old system I would have purchased the 6900.

I agree with your comment on speaker selection but regarding the output of the 6900 being able to drive almost any speaker...I ran N803s off a MA6900 for many years and never realized the amount of low end dynamics and weight that I was missing until I upgraded to the MC501s...the difference is not subtle to my ears.

[Know_Talent]

...

I know that 6900 is not fully balanced but buying another serious expencive RCA IC (my current one Acoustic Zen Silver Reference II) for the temperary use only to sell it later when 6900 is replaced by a C200 or 500 is rather stupid...:scratch2:



can't you just send the cable back to the manufacturer and have them change it to XLR?

[anton]

can't you just send the cable back to the manufacturer and have them change it to XLR?

I can but I would still need another one in the future if I run 301 through a pre into a power amp.

[jesusdima]

I used to have the 6900 with definitive Supertower Speakers, i upgraded the speakers to McIntosh XLS340 and I noticed that the amp didnt have enough power to drive them how I wanted.

I bought a 402 and the difference between the 6900 and the 402 is more than noticeable with the XLS340, better bass, more dynamics and a clearer sound.

I then added a XCS350 for the center and a 501, whoa the 501 is really a different beast, it has tons of power, dynamic sound and a "Live" feeling

I think that the jump from the 6900 to the 402 is very noticeable not in loudness but in effortless sound, the amp doesnt sound as if it was being pushed, it is relaxed beautiful sound.

As always you should listen and judge according to your liking.

[anton]

I did an experiment today - connecting 301 through variable output into 6900 power amp inputs. The change was dramatic and to my surprise for the better - the sound became much more 3 dimensional, realistic and detailed. I was kijnda surprised - wasn't 6900's pre supposed to be better than no preamp at all? But on the other hand it showed how much better my current speakers can sound before reaching their boundaries and that an upgrade to 402 and balanced ICs (not to mention C500 in the future) makes all the sense and could be VERY noticeble!:banana:

[Victor]

wasn't 6900's pre supposed to be better than no preamp at all?
It depends on what you are comparing it to. ;) Glad to hear you found a simple way to get more enjoyment out of your system. :thmbsp:

[anton]

It depends on what you are comparing it to. ;) Glad to hear you found a simple way to get more enjoyment out of your system. :thmbsp:

After some listening I'm not sure if it's an upgrade - the sound sure became much more open and detailed, much more dynamic and 3 dimensional but at the same time a bit rough and sometimes even harsh. Guess it always sounds this way without a preamp...Now I'm not so sure that running 301 balanced straight into 402 would be such a good idea. Though now I'm using RCA, not balanced.

[Know_Talent]

After some listening I'm not sure if it's an upgrade - the sound sure became much more open and detailed, much more dynamic and 3 dimensional but at the same time a bit rough and sometimes even harsh. Guess it always sounds this way without a preamp...Now I'm not so sure that running 301 balanced straight into 402 would be such a good idea. Though now I'm using RCA, not balanced.

There's nothing wrong with running single-ended as long as the circuit is designed well and the components synergize. When I ran my MC501s off the MA6900 preout it sounded very good!

I liked the sound of the c2300 running the MC501s better than another system I heard running c1000/1000T with MC1201s with far more expensive source and speakers...so go figure.