Curious how many MC-2301 owners are out there. What did you have before the MC-2301's. Impressions?

I have a pair which will be used in a dedicated 2-channel setup soon.

Still have all my SS Amps in my Signature.

I have had a pair for the past couple of months and they are fantastic! They have the power to ensure near concert level performance without losing the warmth of tube sound.

I am running them with the 1KW speakers and will soon be ordering two 1.2KW's as well as two more of the 2301 amps. I will tri-amp the speakers with this setup with the 1.2KW on the subs.

I will keep everyone posted on the results....

SF.

I had the opportunity to hear those 2301's on some 1kw's about two months ago. Fantastic.

As you, I have horns. I have debated on these amps myself. Still considering the MC501's though. I have tried the MC275 as well as another quality tube amp that just didn't do it for me. The MC252 with a tube preamp sounded the best on my La Scala II's or my Klipsch KPT system.

MC275 and the MC252 sold. Sittin on dough.......not for long.

jc

I have had a pair for the past couple of months and they are fantastic! They have the power to ensure near concert level performance without losing the warmth of tube sound.

I am running them with the 1KW speakers and will soon be ordering two 1.2KW's as well as two more of the 2301 amps. I will tri-amp the speakers with this setup with the 1.2KW on the subs.

I will keep everyone posted on the results....

Welcome to AK kingiii64 aka "Big Kahuna" :thmbsp:

I have had a pair for the past couple of months and they are fantastic! They have the power to ensure near concert level performance without losing the warmth of tube sound.

I am running them with the 1KW speakers and will soon be ordering two 1.2KW's as well as two more of the 2301 amps. I will tri-amp the speakers with this setup with the 1.2KW on the subs.

I will keep everyone posted on the results....

Welcome to AK Kingiii64. The gain between the 1.2KW and 2301s is very different. May want to consult with McIntosh before tri-amping that way.

I have had a pair for the past couple of months and they are fantastic! They have the power to ensure near concert level performance without losing the warmth of tube sound.

I am running them with the 1KW speakers and will soon be ordering two 1.2KW's as well as two more of the 2301 amps. I will tri-amp the speakers with this setup with the 1.2KW on the subs.

I will keep everyone posted on the results....

6 x MC2301 OR 6 x 1.2Kw ..... Dont mix .... !!! :thmbsp:

Welcome to AK kingiii64 aka "Big Kahuna" :thmbsp:

Thank you Master Lu! I look forward to posting more as time passes but will read more to make sure I am not posting the same thing as everyone else. I have purchased all of my gear from Shane in HiFi Hawaii and have not been happier. If anyone on this forum ends up in Hawaii to sample our fine weather and bikinis (not necessarily in that order), be sure and stop in to see Shane. I have been to 85 countries thus far in my travels and Shane has been the best source of no-pressure information and assistance thus far.

6 x MC2301 OR 6 x 1.2Kw ..... Dont mix .... !!! :thmbsp:

Thank you for the information on gain differences in Tri-amping tubes and solid state. I will check with Shane and let you know what he says. My idea has been kept to myself thus far. I was trying to get the best of the Solid state bass response and keep the tubes mids and highs however, there is a good chance that my ideas are based upon my fantasy alone....http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/images/icons/icon6.gif

Just run a DBX 223XL crossover set to 200 Hz on the MC2301s and they will b e happy as can be.

thanks,
Ron-C

Just run a DBX 223XL crossover set to 200 Hz on the MC2301s and they will b e happy as can be.

thanks,
Ron-C

Ron, I use an EV unit for XO functions or EQ at times. Have you personally worked with the DBX 223XL and found that it has no "bad sound" impact on High end Home audio amps such as MACS?

Thanks
jc

We know that the Mc tube amps do not like to be passivly crossed over. An electronic crossover that is set below the speakers normal woofer to Mid-high crossover point, results in much cleaner mid-high sound. I have had good feedback from users on the balanced DBX crossovers. Their specs look good and so is their reputation.

Thanks,
Ron-C

We know that the Mc tube amps do not like to be passivly crossed over. An electronic crossover that is set below the speakers normal woofer to Mid-high crossover point, results in much cleaner mid-high sound. I have had good feedback from users on the balanced DBX crossovers. Their specs look good and so is their reputation.

Thanks,
Ron-C

Hi Ron,

Given what you had advised, does it mean I am doing the wrong thing using 3 sets of MC2000 to "passive tri-amp" the XRT30's? :scratch2:Please advise. I am curious to know if I had done the wrong thing!:yes:

Thanks.:thmbsp:

Jerry,

You can try a crossover and report back. These are not expensive but you should use all balanced interconnects. The amps will run cooler and have more power in the range you are using them. There are sound reasons why pro sound has used this type of set up for the last 50 years.

thanks,
Ron-c

Jerry,

You can try a crossover and report back. These are not expensive but you should use all balanced interconnects. The amps will run cooler and have more power in the range you are using them. There are sound reasons why pro sound has used this type of set up for the last 50 years.

thanks,
Ron-c

Hi Ron,

Thanks for the advise. However, I am not planning any active tri-amping at this time and all I could do is use the C2200G thru balanced connections to all 3 sets of Mc2000 that will then "passively tri-amp" the XRT30's as shown in the speakers manuals. I am just curious if this will in any way, cause problems to the amps.

Your advise would be most appreciated.

Thanks.

Jerry,.

If you are using transistor amps passive bi-amping is fine. With tubes you need an electronic crossover for the amps to run their best. Are you trying to tri or bi amp? Are you using balanced or unbalanced connections?

Thanks,
Ron-C

Hi Ron,

Given what you had advised, does it mean I am doing the wrong thing using 3 sets of MC2000 to "passive tri-amp" the XRT30's? :scratch2:Please advise. I am curious to know if I had done the wrong thing!:yes:

Thanks.:thmbsp:

Yes. Now send me one of those suckers. I need one more! :banana::D

Jerry,.

If you are using transistor amps passive bi-amping is fine. With tubes you need an electronic crossover for the amps to run their best. Are you trying to tri or bi amp? Are you using balanced or unbalanced connections?

Thanks,
Ron-C

Hi Ron,

1. Balanced Connections.
2. Tri-Amp (as in the XRT30's manual - removing all the jumpers on the speakers).
3. One set to the XRT30's bass, one set to the "mids" connections and the last set to the "highs" connection.
4. No electronic crossover.

In short, per what the XRT30's manual instructions.

Thanks,

Jerry Seh

Yes. Now send me one of those suckers. I need one more! :banana::D

Bro,

If you are serious and I am hit with an "unacceptable" answer from Ron, I will ship you the unit PROVIDED you really want it. :scratch2:

I am really, REALLY anxious to know if I am doing all the wrong things now - that is passively tri-amping the XRT30's with tubes!!! :tears:

Cheers!!! :banana:

Jerry,

It is OK the way you have it connected, just not optimized. Since the high impedance of the output tubes does not respond to the change in the low impedance speaker crossovers, the tube amps are trying to amplify outside the range of the speaker section, you have them attached to. Using an inexpensive balanced crossover like the three way 234XL DBX will focus the power to the exact range of the speakers connected. Adding the electronic x-over will be like adding three more MC2000s.

Thanks,
Ron-C

Jerry,
Adding the electronic x-over will be like adding three more MC2000s.

Thanks,
Ron-C

WOW:yikes:

Thanks for the comments on my aspirations too tri-amp the 1200 and 2301. I have just remembered where I got the idea in the first place. If you look at the 2301 Owner's manual under the Bi-Amping section, you will see that the second displayed amplifier is the 1.2 KW. THis gave me the idea to use these in a tri-amp manner.

Now that I know that I can do so with a DBX crossover (Thanks Ron-C!!), I am planning my next purchase....



6 x MC2301 OR 6 x 1.2Kw ..... Dont mix .... !!! :thmbsp:

DBX230XL Product Page (http://www.dbxpro.com/234XL/234XL.php)

I am impressed, simple, quick, XLR in and out, $230 street price (they are mono but 3-way).... To make your $50K plus of audio equipment "optimized"

The DBX x-overs are not expensive enough to be audiophile approved. Building a quiet electronic crossover using known circuit designs and low noise integrated circuits will yield very good performance. I am sure McIntosh could make a higher performance x-over but at this time we do not.
The crossover payoff if limiting the frequency range of the amps to match the speakers connected. This will make for very happy amplifiers.

Thanks,
Ron-C

Ron,
You were kind enough to advise me on what amps I might need to drive my new Salon2's. I went with the 501's but miss my TUBES!! I am thinking of using a pair of 275's to drive the Mid/Hi tap on the Salon's and keep the 501's driving the bottoms. Any thoughts?
Thanks,
WNB

What is the crossover point from the bass to Mid/high section?

Thanks,
Ron

Good question. I will have to read the specs and get back to you.

Just ran across this thread and was looking at these Salon 2's the other day in a mag -- this is what they measured:

Crossover frequencies: 150Hz, 575Hz, 2.3kHz

Thanks, I just found the info as well. Think the 275's would work? If you remember, I traded a pair to get the 501's. Maybe I should have just added the 501's to the low posts and kept the 275's!!

If you mix ss and tube amps simply use the transistor amp on the bass and it will work with the speaker's passive x-over. Use the electronic x-over on the tube amp only. In the above example of a 575 cycle bass to mid/hi crossover set the electronic to roll off the tube amp at 500 Hz or so.

Thanks,
Ron-C

If you mix ss and tube amps simply use the transistor amp on the bass and it will work with the speaker's passive x-over. Use the electronic x-over on the tube amp only. In the above example of a 575 cycle bass to mid/hi crossover set the electronic to roll off the tube amp at 500 Hz or so.

Thanks,
Ron-C

Fascinating thread, I've learned quite a bit. If I understand correctly, when bi-amping or tri-amping with SS amps passive crossovers are fine, but tube amps will work optimally with electronic or active crossovers? :pawprint:

I am a new member, and also have a bi-amping experience... I too concluded that as good as the 501's were, I missed my tubes, and decided to passively bi-amp my Nautilus 802's with my new 501's and existing 275's. Once tweaked, the sound was fantastic, but my 275's seemed to be running hot. So I called Mac, reached Ron-C, who explained the need for electronic Xovers in front of the tubes. I purchased the DBX unit he recommended,
the 275's now run cooler, and as good as the system sounded before, it actually opened up more and seems to have better dynamics. All for $179.95!!

I am a new member, and also have a bi-amping experience... I too concluded that as good as the 501's were, I missed my tubes, and decided to passively bi-amp my Nautilus 802's with my new 501's and existing 275's. Once tweaked, the sound was fantastic, but my 275's seemed to be running hot. So I called Mac, reached Ron-C, who explained the need for electronic Xovers in front of the tubes. I purchased the DBX unit he recommended,
the 275's now run cooler, and as good as the system sounded before, it actually opened up more and seems to have better dynamics. All for $179.95!!

Yardbird1,

Did you have to disable the crossover in the N802 before connecting to the external x-over? If you could explain alittle further.

There is no need to disable your speakers' internal crossover, Indy. All you are using the electronic crossover for is to remove the lower frequencies from the full range signal you are feeding the tube amp that you are using to drive the mids/highs portion of your speaker system. Unlike the SS amp you are using to drive your woofers, the tube amp does not recognize the crossover in your speaker, which causes it to run ineffeciently(hot).

Cougit and Yardbird,

You are correct in your analysis. Worked at Woodstock and works now!

Thanks,
Ron-C

There is no need to disable your speakers' internal crossover, Indy. All you are using the electronic crossover for is to remove the lower frequencies from the full range signal you are feeding the tube amp that you are using to drive the mids/highs portion of your speaker system. Unlike the SS amp you are using to drive your woofers, the tube amp does not recognize the crossover in your speaker, which causes it to run ineffeciently(hot).
Thanks Yardbird1, I'll have to give it a try.

Do you like the 501s + 275s + crossover better than using only the 275s?

Yes, I've always liked big solid state power for the big soundstage, clarity with complex musical peaks and fast transients. But I've never been able to trade tube warmth, and musicality for it. So I finally tried bi-amping tubes and solid state and for me, its the most satisfying approach I've found. The 501's alone are still great amps, and very popular for good reason, it just depends on your personal tasts...

Hi all

Intresting discussion. On the manual of the MC2301 there is an tubeamp connected with an solidstateamp in bi-amping. There is no active crossover connected between preamp and tubeamp. Is that not little bit confusing for a customer. There is nothing stated that an active crossover is nedeed. Is MC2301 any diffrent from other tube amps. Can anybody explain.

Thanks

It will work without a crossover but sound better with.

thanks,
Ron-C

Think I got it! Crossover BETWEEN the preamp and the tube amp set ABOVE the speakers xover setting??

If you had a tube amp on the bass and the speaker passively crossed over at say 250Hz, you would then set the electronic crossover just above this at say 300 Hz.
Unfortunately this may not help the next amp up which needs to power the mids and tweets. If both amps are tube this will be complex. If one amp is transistor it will not need the x-over but the tube amp will benefit. In a mixed case, which tends to be solid state-transistors on the bass and tubes on the mid high, you would only use the electronic crossover on the tubes. All McIntosh preamps have multiple outputs in parallel so this is not a big issue.
The overall concept is to limit the tube amp from trying to reproduce frequencies that are outside the connected speaker section which will waste power and make the amp run hotter than normal. Not a fatal situation but also not the most efficient.

thanks again,
Ron-C

The following quotes two replies for reference:
"...
It is OK the way you have it connected, just not optimized. Since the high impedance of the output tubes does not respond to the change in the low impedance speaker crossovers, the tube amps are trying to amplify outside the range of the speaker section, you have them attached to. Using an inexpensive balanced crossover like the three way 234XL DBX will focus the power to the exact range of the speakers connected. Adding the electronic x-over will be like adding three more MC2000s...."



"...If you had a tube amp on the bass and the speaker passively crossed over at say 250Hz, you would then set the electronic crossover just above this at say 300 Hz.
Unfortunately this may not help the next amp up which needs to power the mids and tweets. If both amps are tube this will be complex. If one amp is transistor it will not need the x-over but the tube amp will benefit. In a mixed case, which tends to be solid state-transistors on the bass and tubes on the mid high, you would only use the electronic crossover on the tubes. All McIntosh preamps have multiple outputs in parallel so this is not a big issue.
The overall concept is to limit the tube amp from trying to reproduce frequencies that are outside the connected speaker section which will waste power and make the amp run hotter than normal. Not a fatal situation but also not the most efficient..."



I have used Bryston 10B X-cross for high+mid horn+ MC275 amp and built -in SS amp of bass unit. Adding X-over has improvement in dynamic and clarity

in the high+mid/mid bass. However, the setting in the X-over has to be adjusted, such as slope, for difference music material to sound warmer or sharper and natural.

Therefore, my envisaged result of adding electron X-over to get better sound in bi-amp cases is in fact to cover up the gap between tube and SS sonic difference.

However, the gap does exist still for mixing two technologies. Correct me if I am wrong?



Referring to the above quoted messages, combining tube impedance and X-over for tube amp ideas mentioned, may I know why only Mac tube amp needs electronic X-over but not both Mac tube+ SS amp toghter so that both amps share the same X-over? My understanding is that tube impedance has higher and relatively less dynamic than SS. Boosting tube amp using X-over will be enough to mitigate the gap between two technologies and to make the tube portion sound more vivid or dynamic to match with bass from SS amp in full range. Kindly correct my understanding if I am wrong.

However, I am interested why '...If both amps are tube this will be complex...'. In this case, will the challenge become at the bass region which may have to much overlapping with the high/mid tube amp? Your comment is highly appreciated?
Thank you!

MC2301's in the house. Man these things are massive. They dwarf the 2102's I was running as monoblocs.

After a few hours of listenting last night, I am blown away by these amps. They have the same great silky midrnage as my 2102's, but are much much quieter. The quality and quantity of the bass these amps are producing is just great. Very tight, not at all sloppy or glorified. While the jury is still out, I may be able to ditch my subs and all the electronics that go with them.
Can't wait to get home and listen some more!
:banana:

If you are maintaining the passive speaker crossover you can set the electronic crossover one octave higher or lower that the passive speaker crossover point. This will require that the electronic crossover has seperate high pass and low pass frequency adjustments. Not all have this feature.

Thanks,
Ron-C

Hi Ron,
I'm running the VA Beethovens full range, no highpass. The sub is in a separate signal path and low-passed/equalized to cover just the lowest octave. I have a MLSSA system, a luxury that allows me to tailor the sub to just fill in where the mains fall off.

I think the higher gain of the MC2301 will have me re-adjusting the sub gains to compensate.

But for now, wow, I'm too busy listening to mess with it. This is a great amp - my congrats to the lads back in the labs.

It will work without a crossover but sound better with.

Would the new MEN-220 work even better?