Well...seeing as this is the turntable forum, that might not be realistic, but I'll ask anyway!:D I've been considering getting back into vinyl, but I am having some possible reservations when I consider what the cost might be. The system I have consists of a rotel pre-amp and power amp, a cambridge audio 640 CD player, and a pair of paridigm studio 60 speakers. I know it may not be the best set up (especially when I see some of the AMAZING gear that some of the forum members have), but I like how it sounds.

The question I have is how much would I realistically have to spend on a turntable to get something that will noticably outperform my CD player? My other issues are that, firstly, I would need a phono pre-amp, as my rotel does not have a phono input, and secondly, I would basically have to start from scratch collecting vinyl, which is becoming rare to find used, and is quite expensive to buy new.

Any opinions that you folks could offer would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks in advance.

The question I have is how much would I realistically have to spend on a turntable to get something that will noticably outperform my CD player?

Tough question. It depends on how you define out perform. If you dislike the sterile harshness of CDs and just want the warm, smooth, more natural sound of vinyl then you may need to only spend a few hundred on new stuff or much less than that depending on your skill/luck at the thrifts.

If you want more dynamic range, more detail, better imaging, a more accurate sound stage, etc., you will need to part with some more serious cash. I'm happy with my set-up which ran me $500 or so in the mid to late 80s. I just replaced the cartridge with the current OEM equivalent for $250.

The best bet might be to pair a good used Technics Direct Drive TT with a fresh cart. I don't have a Technics, but lots of people do because they were a very good, built hell for stout TT for the money and there's many still around. Others here could probably provide specific models to look for.

Unbiased, ought oh - not sure this is the place ? :)

Elco covered it, but we need a bit more info. What are your music style/type preferences? For instance, classical will be way tougher than rock because of the number of quiet passages that spot light clicks and pops. Long rock cuts cover a lot of that. Are you a musician? If you are and have perfect pitch, it'll be a bit tougher too. If not a musician, a 1% speed shift will be hardly noticeable. These factors drive straight to the bottom line as in grade of table, cartridge and choice/condition of vinyl. Last week I scored two very nice LPs from a record store in San Diego for $4 each. One is almost prefect, the other is VG++. Both sound good, one is just a bit noisier than the 99%'er. they are out there. You just need to look. All the time. Every where. Even traveling on business.

While I think in most cases vinyl sounds better than CD, it would depend on what genre of music you prefer. There is a lot of music that never came out on vinyl and also there is a lot of music that was never put on CD. Look at vinyl as a long term commitment. This day and age, building a nice vinyl library of music you love is not done in a short amount of time. When you start your collection, everything you see will be something you don't have, but be selective on what you purchase. Buy records that are not abused, so down the road, you will have a collection you can be proud of and not a bunch of abused trash.

As far as the amount of money to give you a satisfying vinyl experience with the gear you have? It would depend on how patient you are. Remember, this is probably going to be a fairly lengthy commitment. But I would say that from the gear you own (very nice) you aren't afraid to spend a little to get something nice. $1000 would go a long ways to get you on a good start. It can be done much cheaper if you do your homework and don't get in a hurry. There is a fairly long learning curve with analog, but it isn't rocket science. It just isn't open a CD drawer and push play.

If you have the time and enjoy hitting yard sales, thrift shops and have a good used vinyl store in your area, I would say go for it if you are a music lover. It is a very hands on medium, with cleaning the vinyl (brushes, chemicals, etc), installing and setting up a cartridge(proper tools), cleaning the stylus, etc. But this is a lot of the fun for many of us.

Thanks for the quick responses folks, I appreciate your input. To answer a few of your questions, I really like all kinds of music, but mainly listen to classic/progressive rock - Rush, Yes, Genesis...and so on... I am a musician, and I would without a doubt notice a 1% difference in speed, and I have to say some of the biggest attractions to CD in the first place for me was the fact that the sound quality would not degrade over time and the total lack of background noise.

I think my biggest problem is that the only turntable I have ever owned is a Technics SL-BD20, which I've had for probably 15 years or so, that, the last time I used it, was set up with a TEAC integrated amp and a pair of Sound Dynamics bookshelf speakers, so, I really have no point or reference for what a good set up sounds like. I worry that maybe I'm expecting more than I'm going to get without spending a small fortune.

We need to know roughly how much you're willing to spend. From that point, as others have said, you've already got a very nice foundation, you now need a really good turntable (note I didn't say really expensive, but that's all relative I guess), a good cartridge, and a good phono preamp. We could argue about which of those is the most important, some would say the cartridge, but they're all very important and you never want to skimp. So the advice from www .records is very sound (sorry), have patience, don't try to get the whole thing done in a week. Research, read around here and other places on the internet, and make a decision.

I worry that maybe I'm expecting more than I'm going to get without spending a small fortune.


What's a small fortune?

Well...seeing as this is the turntable forum, that might not be realistic, but I'll ask anyway!:D I've been considering getting back into vinyl, but I am having some possible reservations when I consider what the cost might be. The system I have consists of a rotel pre-amp and power amp, a cambridge audio 640 CD player, and a pair of paridigm studio 60 speakers. I know it may not be the best set up (especially when I see some of the AMAZING gear that some of the forum members have), but I like how it sounds.

The question I have is how much would I realistically have to spend on a turntable to get something that will noticably outperform my CD player? My other issues are that, firstly, I would need a phono pre-amp, as my rotel does not have a phono input, and secondly, I would basically have to start from scratch collecting vinyl, which is becoming rare to find used, and is quite expensive to buy new.

Any opinions that you folks could offer would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks in advance.

Not as much as you fear. A decent used Thorens TD-160 can be tweaked for around 300 for a nice one. In the early 1980's my Dad bought a new Yamaha CR-2040. The phono stage was actually not too shabby. I still have his mint B&O 4004 turntable with at least 4 good cartridges for it. Look daily in your local Craigslist for "turntable" and see what appears for sale. Local is always better as a lot of folks have no clue how to pack one to arrive safely from fleabay. A fun entry level cartridge can be cheap and cheerful Grado to the Denon 103 series for a little more loot. Although the Denon is a low output moving coil and would need a head amp or a step up. I bought my Dad a new Denon DP-47F before he passed away. The cartridge was a new old stock Denon 103D. I will say that for the table and cart the total was around 550. The Denon direct drive tables are actually surprisingly good sounding. Here is my humble combo "budget" set up idea for you.
1) Thorens, Denon, or B&O table used - 250
2) cartridge Grado or similar MM - 100
3) used Nitty Gritty or VPI 16.5 cleaner - 350

Look for a guy here with the moniker "Merrylander." he often has a clean refurbished Yamaha CR series receiver that would have a phono stage in it for a very fair price. You could also skip the record cleaner and buy a manual one or read up on doing them by hand. You could also end up paying a lot less for a used table on Craigslist if you get lucky. You need not spend a lot of loot as a properly set up budget table can shame a higher end table that is not set up correctly. Good luck and maybe some of us will run into you at the local thrift stores scrounging some good used vinyl. John

I hear ya ! CD's are so easy . As a hack it's great to be able to pause RW+FW to get that lick ( hack -me not you ). But having recently got back into TT's I enjoy the sound better and my TT was a vintage find so was very cheap . On the down side there is nothing that allows more upgrading than a TT , so can be an obsession , but a good obsession for listening . If you have some Lp's already go for it , the vintage route maybe ?

As far as budget goes, I would prefer to keep the whole thing (turntable and phono stage) under $500...but I would likely spend a little more if I knew that I would be happier with the equipment. I would also have to budget some money for something to play on it, since I probably only have about 10 LPs that are in playable condition...Most of the records I have were purchased before 1984, when I was 1. They were played hundreds of times on bad equipment and not taken very good care of, unfortunately.

As far as budget goes, I would prefer to keep the whole thing (turntable and phono stage) under $500...but I would likely spend a little more if I knew that I would be happier with the equipment. I would also have to budget some money for something to play on it, since I probably only have about 10 LPs that are in playable condition...Most of the records I have were purchased before 1984, when I was 1. They were played hundreds of times on bad equipment and not taken very good care of, unfortunately.

Given your budget, start hitting the yard sales early and often. At EVERY sale, ask in a LOUD voice: "any records or old stereo equipment?" I rarely get skunked going out yard saling here in Wyoming. I've found tons of Classic Rock LPs for dirt cheap.

Good example: I drive past a yard sale last Saturday and spot a pregnant Mom with a couple kids and nothing but baby clothes and toys in sight. I stop, and ask that all important question. I'm led into the basement and 10 minutes later leave with two milk crates stuffed with 130 Psych/Prog/Hard Rock/Metal LPs for forty bucks.

You should be able to pick up a good to excellent vintage turntable for twenty bucks or less. You might also find an excellent older amp or receiver with a built in phono preamp. Invest the real money in the best cartridge you can afford.

Have fun!

There are some real bargains to be had on turntables if you put in the footwork. Cactuscowboy gave a good suggestion on hitting lots of yardsales, fleamarkets, etc. and always asking about vinyl and stereo stuff. Also keep an eye on your local Craigslist. You never know what will turn up and at some point you will be amazed.

Do a search (or post a new question) about recommended quality turntables. As far as a phono preamp, you might consider an old Dynaco PAS 2 or 3. Since you are a musician, you probably have a tech that repairs your equipment from time to time. Ask him if he works on older tube gear.

rega p3 ( good used condition) + audiotechnica at110e + nad pp2 or cambridge 640p phono stage..ought to let the cobwebs accumulate on that cd player..

the technics sld2 is a good dd manual/auto return tt/arm, not much $(30-70?)

What the Lps in some cases outperform are the CDs, at least older Lps that don´t use the same compressed, loud masters as the CDs do. If Your CDP will be outperformed by a TT is not possible to say, because it will only depend on what "colour" of the sound You like.
/gusten

You can find a good vintage Direct Drive turntable for not all that much. I recommend the DD's as there's usually less screwing around to get them performing like new as compared to other vintage drive systems.

That and a cartridge like the AT-150 or 440 and you'll easily outdo most CD players with the right vinyl.

As far as bargain vinyl, it's still out there...you just have to know where to look. :D

As far as budget goes, I would prefer to keep the whole thing (turntable and phono stage) under $500...but I would likely spend a little more if I knew that I would be happier with the equipment. I would also have to budget some money for something to play on it, since I probably only have about 10 LPs that are in playable condition...Most of the records I have were purchased before 1984, when I was 1. They were played hundreds of times on bad equipment and not taken very good care of, unfortunately.

Music Hall 2.2 with Cambridge 640P phono stage. BTW you have a great setup and it should sound really excellent.

Given your existing preference for the sound of British gear, I agree with Melofelo and would suggest a used Rega P2 turntable with a Cambridge 640P phono preamp and an Audio Technica AT440MLa cartridge. The three mate very nicely together, are in your price range and should easily out do your CD player.

If you are "pitch sensitive," as I believe you are, the Regas run a little fast. I'd go for a Technics direct drive with pitch control, a reasonably good, inexpensive cartridge and a phono pre-amp - maybe Bellari. You can get in for under $500 with something that will easily best the CD's.
Bob

Let's not forget that the LP is half of the equation! IMHO, when I was buying lots of albums in the 70's-80's the quality of the vinyl was really hit or miss. I was told by a record shop owner friend that all defective albums were recycled into new albums. Problem is they didn't bother to remove any labels! So the recycled vinyl was very noisy right out of the wrapper. And the vinyl was thin - very flexible. ANyway, be aware that like almost anything else you will have good lp's and bad. I'd also suggest a record cleaner of some sort. Even a hand held brush with cleaner would help.

If you are "pitch sensitive," as I believe you are, the Regas run a little fast.
Bob

Sorry to disagree but Regas do not run fast. For an interesting read on the subject, here's a link to an article on The Perfect Sound Forever that includes a discussion of the reported Rega speed issue and a sampling speed test by Gene Rubin.

http://www.furious.com/Perfect/vinyl53.html

We recently discussed the topic here in this forum.
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=169852

Dave

my p3 has run fine for 14 years..and its still on the original belt..not too sure where the speed issue rumour comes from...but i'd take it with a pinch of salt

Depending on how handy you are you can sometimes get a great TT for a low price. I currently run a Yamaha PX-2 that set me back a mere $250 simply because it did not work, well it sure does now. Recently put a Denon DL-160 in it for about $150 and the whole setup runs through my CR-2040 - $285 from a local pawnshop and a pair of Yamaha NS-690s - $145 and a Yamaha YST-SW216 sub - $55.

Refinished the NS-690s, veneered the CR-2040 in Rosewood so the whole deal is probably worth somewhere around $1700.

Thanks again folks! There are alot of really good and very helpful suggestions here. I'm thinking what I might do is go ahead and pick up the Cambridge 540 or 640 phono stage first, since I'll need it anyway, and give it a try with my Technics SL-BD20. This turntable barely got any use when I got it, so everything should be in pretty good shape. This way, I suppose, I can at least get an idea of if it would be a good plan to put some money into a better turntable. Any opinions on the SL-BD20? I know it's pretty much entry level, but is it decent enough to be at all comparable to a $300 to $400 turntable?

Thanks for the quick responses folks, I appreciate your input. To answer a few of your questions, I really like all kinds of music, but mainly listen to classic/progressive rock - Rush, Yes, Genesis...and so on... I am a musician, and I would without a doubt notice a 1% difference in speed, and I have to say some of the biggest attractions to CD in the first place for me was the fact that the sound quality would not degrade over time and the total lack of background noise.

I think my biggest problem is that the only turntable I have ever owned is a Technics SL-BD20, which I've had for probably 15 years or so, that, the last time I used it, was set up with a TEAC integrated amp and a pair of Sound Dynamics bookshelf speakers, so, I really have no point or reference for what a good set up sounds like. I worry that maybe I'm expecting more than I'm going to get without spending a small fortune.

I own that same turntable & with a good cartridge, it's a very good TT; quiet & reliable, no hum whatsoever. Maybe add some isolation cones & a slab of marble or heavy wood to put under it.

It's good to hear that the turntable I have may be alright! What cartridge do you reccomend? I understand there may be some limitations as to what I can use because it uses a P-mount cartridge. I haven't changed/replaced anything at all since it was purchased.

Suggest starting with a AT 440MLa (new stock). It's not the be all-end all, but it's very decent and the micro-line (ML) styli will dig deep and get whatever the vinyl has to offer, new or used. You can pick up others over time until you find your favorite voice? Maybe a Grado for number 2? That table is hum free with a Grado, so that's way cool :)

Then on to a HO MC Denon maybe or other higher end cart?