Chinese And Soviet Tubes

[Johnny Salam]

I've seen Chinese and Soviet - it's just no fun calling them Russian - tubes and they seem to be relatively inexpensive.

Does this mean they're cheap or no good in some way, or do they just cost less?

[markus]

I'm a total vintage tube freak - never bought a new set of tubes except for a pair of Valve Art 2A3's . . .

If you search, you'll see some 'new' tubes have quality control issues . . especially ones that are subjected to harsh environments (rectifier and high voltage circuit outputs) .. .

I like to think of it in a car analogy. . .

you can spend some money, and drive a honda, or a maybe even a new lincoln, OR . . . for some more $$ (or if you're lucky for no more money) you can be driving a vintage Corvette, Ferrari, or Jaguar :thmbsp:

I know what I choose . . .

[gearhound]

99% of the worlds tubes are now produced in China or Russia.
JJ tubes, in what was Yugoslavia, is the only exception.
The great majority of new production tubes are relatively low-cost and sound decent.
If you want a great sounding tube....be prepared to spend some money.
NOS (New Old Stock) from the 40's to the early 80's are very much in demand, and due to the ever dwindling supply, costly.

Steve

[Celt]

The current Russian tubes (Sovtek, Tung-Sol, Mullard, Svetlana) have proven themselves in reliability and sound quality. Can't say as much for the Chinese tubes, which in my experience sound good, but have fairly short lifespans.

[Mr. Lin]

The Russian tubes I've used seem to be a good value considering their low cost, but as far as sound goes I find them to be rather boring. Like markus said, if you want performance you're best bet is NOS, but you will pay big time.

[jaymanaa]

I've found lots of good Russian tubes, but never a Chinese that I would use in my, or anyone elses gear.

[kvflyer]

I don't use Chinese because they are supposed to be of inferior quality. Now that is hear-say because I don't have the facts.

I use the Soviet military equivalent of the 7189, the 6П14П -ЕВ. Reasonably priced and shipping from the Ukraine is not expensive. Great tube...

[Celt]

BTW: The 7189 is available over here as a Sovtek EL84M. Great sounding tube for audio, although I prefer the standard EL84 for guitar amps (more warmth and grungy when pushed).

[markus]

Like markus said, if you want performance you're best bet is NOS, but you will pay big time.

aaahhhh. . . . . . new old stock. . . . you will pay big time. . . . . I, however am a cheapskate :D

I like UOS. . .USED old stock. . .. . it's more hit & miss, but if you start hunting down complete consoles and other old tube equipment to fill my needs.

old navy Oscilloscope ? FREE . . . coughed up two SUPER strong brown base Sylvania 6SN7W's . .

box of unknown tubes at a Baptist thrift shop ? $20. . . . in the mix, two strong mullard EL37's, and a pair of strong EL34's (one RCA, but both mullards)

Ampex suitcase R2R - $20 - half dozen strong Bugle Boys and telefunken ECC83/12ax7's

aaaaaand . . . how bout a late 20's zenith radio with two 'got some life left' globe 45's ? $10 plus gas money .. . strong globe 80 to boot - oh and I parted it out and broke even :thmbsp:

granted, there have been many dogs along the way for 'buy the whole cow and see whatcha got', but thats half the fun :yes:

Ironically, at the last Kutztown meet, I traded a console tube amp and a Radiola 66 field coil speaker for a Heathkit AA100 which the prior owner had stuffed with all Sovtek 12ax7's, which I'm curious to hear :music:

Point is, if you want instant gratification and 100% reliability, YES - go NOS . . . if you're willing to gamble a little, and have some patience, find a few old consoles or test equipment, and try your luck. . . many Zeniths and some magnavoxes had mullard tubes . . . my Packard Bell console ($40) came with a push/pull tube amp stuffed with a quad of STRONG matched amperex EL84's, and a pair of matched (STRONG) amperex 12ax7s . . .

NOTE TO SELF - CRAP - I'm GIVING MY SECRETS AWAY ! ! ! !

[jaymanaa]

Excellent post Markus.:thmbsp:

[bolly]

havin great luck with a quad of Chinese Penta KT66 wired in triode.... been runnin em about 10hrs per week, for near a year! :thmbsp:

[mhardy6647]

Jim McShane gave the OP an excellent synopsis of current production tubes (12AX7s) in a response to his other post.

[jaymanaa]

Jim McShane gave the OP an excellent synopsis of current production tubes (12AX7s) in a response to his other post.


My experience agrees with Jim's findings spot on.:yes:

[bricktop]

Don't forget Slovakian tubes :D -> JJ. Some good, some bad.

Good experiences: 6V6S, E34L, GZ34, and I hear EL84s are good, will try soon.

Bad experiences: ECC83s <- poop :thumbsdn:

[gadget73]

Getting way out of audio, but how are these cheapie import tubes as far as basic functionality and reliability? Some of my CB equipment makes use of 6L6 and 6BQ5 tubes for audio and RF stages. I don't really want to pay premium coin for top shelf audio tubes because it doesn't really matter in this application. As long as the emission is good and they're reliable, any old tube will do the job.

[Mr. Lin]

aaahhhh. . . . . . new old stock. . . . you will pay big time. . . . . I, however am a cheapskate :D

I like UOS. . .USED old stock. . .. . it's more hit & miss, but if you start hunting down complete consoles and other old tube equipment to fill my needs.

old navy Oscilloscope ? FREE . . . coughed up two SUPER strong brown base Sylvania 6SN7W's . .

box of unknown tubes at a Baptist thrift shop ? $20. . . . in the mix, two strong mullard EL37's, and a pair of strong EL34's (one RCA, but both mullards)

Ampex suitcase R2R - $20 - half dozen strong Bugle Boys and telefunken ECC83/12ax7's

aaaaaand . . . how bout a late 20's zenith radio with two 'got some life left' globe 45's ? $10 plus gas money .. . strong globe 80 to boot - oh and I parted it out and broke even :thmbsp:

granted, there have been many dogs along the way for 'buy the whole cow and see whatcha got', but thats half the fun :yes:

Ironically, at the last Kutztown meet, I traded a console tube amp and a Radiola 66 field coil speaker for a Heathkit AA100 which the prior owner had stuffed with all Sovtek 12ax7's, which I'm curious to hear :music:

Point is, if you want instant gratification and 100% reliability, YES - go NOS . . . if you're willing to gamble a little, and have some patience, find a few old consoles or test equipment, and try your luck. . . many Zeniths and some magnavoxes had mullard tubes . . . my Packard Bell console ($40) came with a push/pull tube amp stuffed with a quad of STRONG matched amperex EL84's, and a pair of matched (STRONG) amperex 12ax7s . . .

NOTE TO SELF - CRAP - I'm GIVING MY SECRETS AWAY ! ! ! !

Very good point, something I completely forgot to mention.

[twystd]

I like to make a distinction between Russian (current production) vs Soviet (mil spec production from the cold war era). I agree that current Russian production to be as Mr. Lin stated as "boring". However the old Soviet era stuff can be as good, if not better than, the best NOS western tubes.

Examples of this are, as kvflyer brought up, the 6P14P-EV (7189, EL84 sub) really sound great. The 6P3S-E (6L6GC/5881 sub) sounds amazing, and is available on ebay for about $6.00 each. Make sure you get the "E" version with the coin base, not the other non "E" version with the full black base, they aren't nearly as good. The 6N23P-EV is a 6922 sub, and the 6N1P-EV is a near equivalent to the 6DJ8 (more heater current, slightly different optimum operating points), truly nice sounding tube. The 6P6S is a really good sounding 6V6 sub.

Other tubes of interest to the DIYer are: 6N6P-EV, a near 5687 type, with a slightly different pin out (I know folks who like these better than any 5687). The 6S19P-EV single triode, a tube with a mu ~ 3, RP of 300 ohms, 10 watts dissipation....Hmmm spud amp, possibly cap output preamp/buffer? The 6S3P-EV is a single triode that has a mu~ 50 with an RP ~ 2k ohms, really only useful in a phono stage as bias and B+ are low, supposedly sound very good. The 6S45P-EV is the Soviet era mil spec version of the 6H30P, but costs $10.00 instead of $30.00. The GU-50, a pentode that uses a special tube socket, and is like a great sounding 6550 on steroids. The GM-70, large transmitting triode, with thoriated tungsten filament, sort of like an 845 but easier to drive. The 5U3C (black plate old Svetlana logo) rectifier is a really great sounding 5U4GB sub.

The earlier tubes (mid 60s or earlier) were designed for analog circuits, and some tubes like the 6N1P-E benefit from this. However, these are almost unobtainium. Try and buy tubes that are EV versions, as these are mil spec and made to better standards, and go through military inspections. Since the early tubes (60s-50s) tubes are mostly off the market now, there are still some 70s production tubes available, and these seem to be for the most part excellent. I try and avoid the tubes made just before the fall of the old Soviet Block, as some tubes I've bought from this era seem spotty.

Since I largely scratch build now, I'm in the process of liquidating my stash of NOS tubes. Since the Soviet mil spec tubes do everything I want, I have very little experience with the Chinese tubes, but so far not impressed.

twystd

[gearhound]

I've seen (and bought) NOS Russian Reflector EL-84 tubes from the 70's......$10 each.
They might not rival NOS GE or RCA.....but I don't have to sell my car to buy a quad set either!?

Steve

[Valsimot]

99% of the worlds tubes are now produced in China or Russia.
JJ tubes, in what was Yugoslavia, is the only exception.
The great majority of new production tubes are relatively low-cost and sound decent.
If you want a great sounding tube....be prepared to spend some money.
NOS (New Old Stock) from the 40's to the early 80's are very much in demand, and due to the ever dwindling supply, costly.

Steve

JJ tubes are from Slovakia, Ei were from Yugoslavia.

[roadie1]

FWIW and I doubt that it helps much but I've had good experience with small signal Chinese tubes. The 12AU7 to be exact.

I bought a fairly nice integrated tube amp some years ago and liked the sound but the only problem was that it was noisy at idle. Lots of hiss coming thru the speakers.

I tried 3 or 4 better known tubes in the center preamp socket to no avail so I stuck in a Chinese tube and it quieted things down nicely. I'm not experienced enough or tech savvy enough to tell you why this happened but in my application the Chinese tube worked well.

Also when I bought my Dared tube pre it came with Chinese tubes. A little bright but not all that bad sounding IMHO.

Although, as a previous poster pointed out, the ones I've used do have a short life span. Especially in the application with the integrated tube amp. Though quiet at first, it's only a matter of months before it gets noisy like all of the others.

And now that I'm thinking about the Dared, it came with a Chinese rectifier tube, again kind of bright. As far as this tube goes much better can be found for little money.

My 1-1/2 cents.................R1:music::yes:

[dtainer]

I purchased last year a Chinese Tube Preamp (Ming-Da). It is excellent as far as build quality and sound go. Obviously, it came with all Chinese tubes: 1x6n6, 2x6n3, 1x12AX7, and 1x5687. This sounded very good, but it didn't really have the spark that I remembered from the tube amps I used to pillage in the seventies from the garbage, fix up and connect to speakers. So I started tube rolling.

By checking this forum and other sources, I discovered that the single biggest difference would be swapping the 6n3 tubes with Western Electric 396A used old stock. This made a huge improvement in sound--wider-appearing soundstage and very nice tight bass, though still less bass than I like.

Then I added a Telefunken used old stock 12AX7. It sounded a little more "technical" (only way I could describe it), but I liked it more than the chinese one.

I swapped out the original chinese 5687 with a Tung Sol. This didn't seem to make much of a difference, but I kept it in.

Now this is where things start to get really interesting, and particular to this thread on Soviet vs. Chinese tubes: Two months after receiving my amp and it working fine and as above being tube-rolled, it started blowing a fuse immediately after being turned on. I tried putting in all the original tubes, etc. but nothing worked. As it turned out, the only tube I had not changed was the original Chinese 6n6. I brought that to a local tube shop off Canal in Chinatown (I'm in Manhattan, Lower East Side) and they told me it was not testing correctly (whatever that means). I asked how long to order one from China and the answer was about a month.

That's when I went online (eBay). I found a guy selling 6H6p Soviet tubes, mixed, from the 70's & 80's, new/used old stock. 10 for $20 plus $10 shipping. I figured the worst that can happen is I lose $30 bucks. At the same time, one of my colleagues who is from Russia, said is daughter-in-law was going to be travelling there, so he'd ask her to look for me as well.

Finally, the Soviet tubes arrive (from the eBay seller) after only 1.5 weeks, I hesitantly popped one into place, and I have to say that I was simply stunned by the difference from before. I listened to Coltrane, which was the last thing played on my preamp before the tube problem. Music just seemed to open up like a fine wine after it breathed for an hour. The output seemed louder by just a slight amount (I had to turn down the amp by a tad for the same sound level as before). This one Soviet tube alone made as much difference as the UOS 396As had done previously. I was very happy.

Now, 2 months later, my colleague's son gave him the other 6H6p that he had asked about for me, and I had also mentioned that if he saw them, I wouldn't mind having a set of 6H3p also (in case my 396A die and I can't replace them for less than $50!).

Just to try them out, I popped the Soviet 6H3p in place of the Western Electric, and it was an even bigger positive difference: now I got a definite kick and tap on the drum kits that wasn't there before (unless I made it very loud), and the bass was punchier and heavier than before, with no muddiness. And on top of that, the cymbals and hi-hats were more distinct, as was the sound of fingers on bass/guitar strings. And best of all, when I put Coltrane back on, the sax never sounded better.

In short, I really really like my Soviet tubes, and I might try to replace all of them with old stock soviet--though I don't know what would be available for the 5687 (I couldn't find a direct Soviet replacement, yet). I do have a new Sovtek 12ax7lps, but it's not much different than the telefunken, surprisingly, and just a little less warm.

Well, that's my story, FWIW!
Dave

[Jim McShane]

The 6P3S-E (6L6GC/5881 sub) sounds amazing, and is available on ebay for about $6.00 each. Make sure you get the "E" version with the coin base, not the other non "E" version with the full black base, they aren't nearly as good.

I have to ask...

The 6P3S-E (coin based) is the tube that has been sold as the Sovtek 5881 for 10-15 years or more. The descriptions of the Sovtek 5881 have been less than kind to say the least (other than it's durability, it's really tough). "Bleached out", blah, no character, etc., all have been applied to this tube.

Now the tube is being sold under the original number and now its wonderful.

Can someone explain why? Thanks...

[himm37]

aaahhhh. . . . . . new old stock. . . . you will pay big time. . . . . I, however am a cheapskate :D

I like UOS. . .USED old stock. . .. . it's more hit & miss, but if you start hunting down complete consoles and other old tube equipment to fill my needs.


granted, there have been many dogs along the way for 'buy the whole cow and see whatcha got', but thats half the fun :yes:



NOTE TO SELF - CRAP - I'm GIVING MY SECRETS AWAY ! ! ! !

I look at it like buying a scratch off lottery ticket!

[djv8ga]

All I know is they ALL suck in transmitters. Back to the topic...

[zoeinterloper]

I run (Russian) Sovtek and Svetlana 6N13S (ECC230) (6AS7G) power tubes from the mid sixties in my Atma-Sphere OTL amps. It's ironic, cold war electronics gear in current day Hifi. I basically would not think of using current day Chinese or Russian signal tubes such as 12AX7 or 6DJ8 in my front-end though. As others have commented and from experience, there cheap, noisy, and sonically inferior to so many NOS possibilities. Save your pennies.

I say use Russian tubes: MAKE LOVE (and music), NOT WAR! :yes:



Happy Listening! :beatnik:

[Jim McShane]

I basically would not think of using current day Chinese or Russian signal tubes such as 12AX7 or 6DJ8 in my front-end though. As others have commented and from experience, there cheap, noisy, and sonically inferior to so many NOS possibilities. Save your pennies.

Some are not so good, others are superb. To lump them in one group and say they are all no good is not an accurate portrayal of the current crop of Russian tubes. Sweeping generalizations are not in order here.

12AX7WXT = sucks

12AY7 EH = OUTSTANDING

Both are current production Russian tubes. It's no more right to say all Russian tubes are outstanding because some are, than to say they are all "cheap, noisy, and sonically inferior" because some are.

The NOS/UOS supplies are nearly exhausted in many numbers. Like it or not, many people will have no choice but to use current production - as has happened with power tubes. If you haven't heard some of the latest tubes don't make all encompassing judgments. There are people who post on this very forum that (GASP!) use and like current Russian small signal tubes! :yes:

[twystd]

I have to ask...

The 6P3S-E (coin based) is the tube that has been sold as the Sovtek 5881 for 10-15 years or more. The descriptions of the Sovtek 5881 have been less than kind to say the least (other than it's durability, it's really tough). "Bleached out", blah, no character, etc., all have been applied to this tube.

Now the tube is being sold under the original number and now its wonderful.

Can someone explain why? Thanks...

Wish I could answer that definitively, but not so sure it is the same, certainly looks similar, but who knows. Every tube I've used has been a 1970s vintage tube, maybe there's a difference in cathode coatings or plate materials. Who knows?

There is so little information out there about the evolution of Soviet era tubes, it's hard to tell. The Soviets were so secret about everything they did, no telling if we'll ever find out.

The only application I've used these particular tubes in was guitar amps, and they were MUCH better than any 6L6 that was in them. In one amp, they had the recent Russian 5881s (Ruby tubes or something like that, don't exactly remember), and we replaced them with the 6P3S-Es. Yeah, they looked similar, but I didn't really take the time to closely examine them, but BIG difference in sound. It was especially evident when they used an acoustic guitar with a pickup, much richer, lots more harmonics. Others have used them in HiFi apps. and loved them too. In short, they may look the same, but they do sound different.

twystd

[zoeinterloper]

Some are not so good, others are superb. To lump them in one group and say they are all no good is not an accurate portrayal of the current crop of Russian tubes. Sweeping generalizations are not in order here.

12AX7WXT = sucks

12AY7 EH = OUTSTANDING

Both are current production Russian tubes. It's no more right to say all Russian tubes are outstanding because some are, than to say they are all "cheap, noisy, and sonically inferior" because some are.

The NOS/UOS supplies are nearly exhausted in many numbers. Like it or not, many people will have no choice but to use current production - as has happened with power tubes. If you haven't heard some of the latest tubes don't make all encompassing judgments. There are people who post on this very forum that (GASP!) use and like current Russian small signal tubes! :yes:

Your right, I could have been less vague and more P.C. let me see if I can clarify...

IMHO I have only tried 12ax7LP and WB/E83CCS and 6922 current day Sovtek in my Aesthetix pre and phono gear (hand selected by Jim White) and although I found them to be quite price conscious, thrifty, if you will... I was not able to stomach their blasphemous liberal portrail of my beloved music. Furthermore I found the sputtering and spattering sidebars, if you will, to be most distasteful and distracting. They sounded brittle, edgy, were devoid of nuance and could not carry a sweet tune for the life of them. I may as well have been listening to CD’s. IMHO they are not worthy of the vacuous space that they reside in. Yet this is only my observations and someone may love these things which I must not be able to comprehend. Enjoy

Sincerely, I mean only fun, no personal offense, except maybe to the valves in reference.:yes:

Happy Listening! :beatnik: