NOS or Current production?

[MikE]

So what does the AK vintage crowd prefer or use in there tube gear, current production or vintage / new old stock tubes? If that old Dynaco you just scored on Ebay or yard sale had vintage tubes in it what (if applicable) did you/will you re-tube it with and why? Is the cost of NOS / vintage tubes reasonable (performance to price ratio) and worth the effort to track down?

MikE

[gonefishin]

well, I'm not really part of THE vintage crowd. But...as far as tubes go...BOTH.

Yes, both nos and new production tubes are what I consider and buy and try when swapping out tubes. I've had some good results with some new production tubes...I've had good luck with some NOS tubes as well.

I will say...that in my system...I have found some of the highly sought after tubes by many audiophiles were a complete let down...I am talking either completly muffled sounding(yes, I tried several to decide if they were defective. they were not) or extremly colored. Colored to the point were many common noises you can hear every day(such as a clap of the hands) sounded nothing like it should. of course I am of the thought that this was in the system combo I have at this moment...and when I change ANY component...I will certainly try these tubes again...as, I believe, it's all about matching.

[hotrod]

In general NOS for me. They were made to much tighter tolerences that most tubes today. Get two with the same day code and they will be for all practical purposes matched as good or better than the best matching a tube tester can do today. I think most so call Audiophile tubes that demand crazy prices are about as crazy as puting $100. a foot 6 Gauge speaker wire on your 12W tube amp.
Rod

[MikE]

I agree. I read all the testimonials about narrow gauge (20-36) wire being ideal with SETs, either silver or copper. Some like a litz braid, others single solid core or CC copper. I went with a 24awg 99.999% pure solid silver W/20awg teflon, replacing my "Audiophile-grade" Silverline Audio cables on the top post. WoW! I was impressed, not only by the performance but also the cost of the upgrade ($68). So what are you running?

MikE

[jshorva65]

NOS vs current-production is really dependent on the application. In an amp that does not provide alignment controls for adjusting output tube bias and coth static and dynamic balance, I would use NOS tubes unless I added the appropriate compensation circuitry. Current production tubes can be used with great results in a properly-designed new amp or a suitably-modified vintage amp. The key is to get the best current-production tubes available (European tubes, not the super-cheap Chinese ones). Quality current-production tubes will have a longer life expectancy and require less-frequent alignment.

My amp (a homebrew) has a B+ adsjustment and test point in the power supply and a test switch and three alignment controls and three test jacks per channel. This procedure is done with speakers connected and with a 1kHz test tone source on the input.

POWER SUPPLY - First, I set my amp's test switch to Static, connect a 0-500V meter between the B+ test point and ground and set the B+ adjustment to get a 450V reading on the meter.

L & R Ampifier - This procedure is completed once for the left channel and then repeated for the right channel. Static balance is done with the test oscillator OFF. Next, I set each channel's Static Balance control to 50% and connect a 0-300mV voltmeter from one output cathode to ground (across the internal bias probe resistor) and set the Bias control for a meter reading of 28mV. Next, I connect the meter between the two output cathodes and set the Static Balance control for 0.0mV , then I check across both bias probe rewsistors and tweak the Bias and Static Balance controls for 28mV across both resistors and 0.0mV between the cathodes. This takes a few minutes and involves some plug-swapping. Once set, this alignment shouldn't need further attention for at least 6 months Next, I set the test switch in the Dynamic position and turn ON the test tone. Adjusting the Dynamic Balance control to the point where the tone is inaudible completes the alignment. I re-align my amp every six months.

The Dynamic Balance procedure can be done with 8-ohm non-inductiive resistors in place of the speakers and an oscilloscope across the amp's output. Adjusting for minimum amplitude on the scope will align the amp more accurately than the "by ear" procedure, however, it involves disconnecting and moving the HEAVY amp to the test bench where The Beast (a Tektronix 547 oscilloscope and its 230VAC power connection) is located.

[MikE]

Thanks! In no way implying that ALL NOS or current production tubes are of similiar quality or signature I have not found one (1) instance where I preferred new tubes to vintage. I agree that the tubes you mention are in general better than the Chinese, in both reliability and performance.

I've been enjoying tube amplification since '96, and frankly I'm (still) dumb founded at the degree of improvement that vintage tubes deliver. Again I must emphasis that the search for the right tube type, vintage, plate construction and brand can be an exhaustive search but one well worth the effort.

I must mention the recent production of the Emission Labs / VV 45 tube. I've heard from every user - save one (Gordon Rankin) - that the NEW (and only) current production 45 output tube is actually better than the best vintage globe 45s. While far from cheap, they are competitive with the market price of vintage globes. Another plus, the new tubes are warrented, with vintage the buyer is dependant on the ethics of each seller.

MikE

[Thatch_Ear]

I have a pair of Chinese made 300B mesh plates (Full Music distributed by Valvotron in the US) that are as good or better than WE. They were rated as #1 out of every 300B on the market including WE( the newly made version). The pair of Chinese 300Bs that came with the amp were from another maker and they are not so hot. On the same amp which has 6SL7 for drivers the very best were the VT 229s made in 43 and 44 for JAN.
As far as NOS goes I don't much care if the tube is used or not. Used tests like new is less expensive, you know it works and is burned in. Differences in tube manufacturing is comparable to anything else made by the country of manufacture at the time. How many Yugos are on the road today? Buying any farm machinery from Russia? You also have to consider the fact that vacuum tubes were designed for the military. The technology then trickled into the consumer market place. But the consumers were Western European and North American. The rest of the world continued to make tubes for military purposes. If some of the tubes made in Russia sound good in audio it is by chance, not design. The Chinese reverse engineer and see the tube audio market being ignored by the rest of the world as far as mass production goes. Their tubes are aimed at audio and I think will improve as time goes by as they improve their design and manufacturing. The only options for tube audio lovers of average means today are DIY or buying a Chinese made amp and tweaking.

[gonefishin]

Thatch...on the vt-229's...which ones have you tried? or used? I tried a couple of different brands...and the sound is quite different in each. Also, Have you tried any of the Sylvania 6sl7gt chrome domes?

[MikE]

Ok, you own the Full Music 300b, have you heard the WE or are you going by hearsay? I've heard a few things about the Full Music tubes - 300b / 2a3 / 274b - though I've not heard them myself. Something about lacking delicacy compared to the better NOS tubes. I've also heard the vintage WE is better than the current production WE (which are supposed to be identical). Do you know WHICH you heard?

As you can tell I'm a vintage tube man through and through, though I've heard excellant reports about the Emission Labs / VV 45 tube, and they just released a mesh plate 45! Compared to a NOS pair of Globe 245s or 345s the price is about the same, except with the EL tube you get a warrenty! I just won a NOS Cunningham Globe 345 (for cheap) so I need to find a mate for it, then I'm saving up for a pair of the Emission Labs Mesh plates.

My point about NOS was not directed toward comparing a NEW tube (NOS) vs a used tube (ANOS) rather a vintage tube vs current production. Most of my vintage stock is/was not NOS when I bought it.

BTW - Welcome aboard the Tube Forum and keep contributing!

MikE

[Thatch_Ear]

Gone fishen-The pair I was using before the RCA VT229 were a pair of short brown base Sylvanias with the chrome domes. They were the best out of GE nickel plates, and 2 different types of RCA black plate. The military Sylvanias were definatly the best of the lot untill the RCA VT229. I could say that the soundstaging improved but I believe that the noise floor was reduced and the soundstage was more open because of it.
Mike, I wish I had all those tubes to listen to, but this was info from a very in depth article that took months of work and probably caused the guy to start hating his favorite music because all the tubes were evalated with the same music, in the same room from the same chair using the same gear. It all seemed very objective and all the tubes were burned in etc. All in all I feel very lucky that I was able to get such a great tube for such a great price. And the old WE were not listened to as this article was written on current production and therefore available tubes. I do understand that the old WE are supposed to be better than the newer "identical" ones, but even the newer ones are too much money for me at $900 a pair. I'll write to my friend that sent me the URL and if he still has it get it posted. Thanks for the welcome.

[Thatch_Ear]

Found the link in the SET Asylum
<www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/1201/300b/index.html>

[gonefishin]

Thatch...I haven't tried the RCA vt229's...so I guess I can't comment on them (maybe I'll look for a pair and give some a try tho ;) )

Mike, I am curious...have you done much rolling of driver tubes? I know you usually roll the outputs (as el34 or 2A3 or 45's) In my experiences...the output tube seems to have certain characteristics...while the driver will have a specific sound. Hmmm...maybe I'm not saying this right...I've found that the driver tube seems to shape the sound of the capabilities of the output tubes sound.

not sure if I'm making myself clear or not...but that's nothing new

[MikE]

GF -

If you follow my saga/thread on my amp you'll see what I've done. Basically I have about 47 tubes for the amp. Most of those are 45 output tubes; globe and ST, and rectifier tubes; 5ar4, 5r4, 5y3, 5u4, 5v4.

http://66.221.25.117/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=373

In the four months with my amp the biggest (or most critical) tube is the 45, either ST or globe. In fact, that tube is flat-out ESSENTIAL to My enjoyment. That said, the choice of rectifier has shaped the sound the most, whereas the 45 doesn't color the sound but purifies it. It deductive, not additive. The rectifiers have much stronger personalities and sonic signatures. The 6-7 different (6an4) input tubes have the least effect.

About Lima, I'm not sure if that would be much help, but YES I plan to go DEFINATELY! It's so close why not? Thanks for the invite, and if you're in town visiting relatives let me know, you're always welcome! BTW - Julian is great, thanks for asking.

MikE

[Thatch_Ear]

GF,
The rolling of the 6SL7s produced one major difference. That was the noise floor and so the quality of the sound staging. VT229 were stand out winners.

[gonefishin]

Thatch...What I've found for me while rolliin' vt229's (N.U. and Sylvania) were that the soundstage got huge...quite impressive...but I noticed (again...for me)...both of these 229's produced a coloration I didn't much care for. The NOS Sylvania GT's just seem to let the sound thru...no matter what output tube (svet, TJ(full music) or WE)...again...every system(and listener) is different...these are just my findings.

However I will be keeping an eye out for some RCA vt229's...as I haven't tried them yet.



MikE...I know you've tried mostly output and rectifier tubes in this amp...but , I was wondering about your experience with tube amps in general. From my experience...the output tubes create the music and the driver seems to shape the music...or sometimes they seem to NOT shape the music.


take care all>>>>>>>>>>>>

[MikE]

Well, my vast (personal) tube amp experience covers three amps since '96. Tubes used include 6l6/5881/6sn7 - el34/12au7/12at7 - 2a3/45/5r4/5ar4/6an4. With the later two there were many tube type variants I substituted for the stock varieties. Within that limited ownership experience the power tubes have had the greatest impact, but that must be taken into consideration of the affecting topology. The combo of SET+45 has been startling. Would PP+45 be equally revealing, I don't know. As with all things, I believe everything matters; tube type, vintage, brand, topology, quality of parts, build quality/execution.

I'm not sure if I so much agree with your accessment of the effect of output vs drivers. With 45 tubes, the variances are smaller than with other tube types (their all good) with 2a3s the differences are more typical, as they can vary quite a bit in signature, like the EL34s. The two 6l5/5881 I rolled exhibited the least dissimilarities. The EL34s had a big swing in performance and tonal pallette, like the 2a3s.

The driver tubes in the VAC had less effect than the input tubes (both 12au7). I always put my best tube in the input stage. Overall the effect of the small tubes in that amp was dramatic, it made or broke the amp. Though the Amperex double-D-getter EL34's alone added the dynamics my system needed, so they were also vital.

I'm still have much to learn, as I continue to explore SET and compare different tubes with that amp. I don't know if I have any universal opinions formed, as my understanding is slow in developing, but compensated by a level of beauty and enrichment that is beyond my ability to express.

MikE

[Chris Garrett]

Mostly in the power tube department. Svetlana 6550Cs aren't all that bad, although I have Tung Sol 6550s running in the Cary's now and some '74 GEC KT88s waiting in the wings when the one Cary finally gets fixed. I also have some EI KT-90 IIIs made in Yugoslavia and but for one out of 10, that died prematurely, they work fairly well for rock n roll.

In the Wright 300Bs, I've got the JJs and while I've looked into the new Westrex and TJ Mesh Plates, I've been fiddling with rectifiers in NOS guise. I also just picked up some NOS 6DN7s for the input drivers and I'll see where that leads.

As for my 9 Pins in the phonostage and two preamps, I pretty much run NOS for the 6DJ8 and 12AU7 families. While I'm sure there are some nicer, newer production tubes out there, I just prefer to dabble in the classics.

Take care, Chris