Doesn high end NEED to be expensive, i.e. can one enjoy a system regardless of cost?

You DO NOT have to spend a fortune to have a nice system. I've owned everything from DIY to Mark Levinson and have determined I am just as happy, if not happier with my many systems that cost less than the one Levinson system. I have found "x" amount of dollars will get you to about 90% towards audio nirvana. Each additonal percent past 90 cost an exponential amount of money. To where to go from 99% to 100% you would have to buy something from NASA that would align the ions of the air in the room. :D

Views here do not represent the management or their affiliates. Your milage may vary.

My present system is a Marantz 2325 and a pair of Large Advents

Not much to be sure, but it pleases me and annoys the neighbors (who, by the way, truly deserve any abuse I heap upon them as they've been a thorn in my rectum for many years)

Cost to date:
Receiver, free
Speakers, $30

Will have the receiver aligned and possibly modded in some ways and the speakers eventually will get new foam. I guesstimate an outlay of about $200. Can't beat that with a stick.

Anthony

There's *mid-fi* and *hi-end*, but both are at all price points. DIY's and used equipment buyers know that you can spend a little and get a lot if careful.

I have found that the more I spend on an item, the less I can actually enjoy it. I keep thinking the money could be spent on something else. That is why I have put together my gear at a pretty low budget point. Though I have a 500-c and an 800-c and a few decent Marantz tables and the Denon DP-1250, decent and I didn't have to spend a ton of cash. The most I spent on one peice is 400 bucks on a G-22000, then later traded it for the Denon and 800-c, so I figure I can enjoy myself and not woprry about where themoney could have gone. Besides, right now my favorite piece is a Realistic Boombox from 86 that I picked up for work, or my second favorite at the moment is a Hitachi box that I use in the bedroom because it has a timer and a sleep timer. The sound is anything but hi-fi, but I can just go to sleep with it and not worry if it is sounding right or not, I just enjoy the tunes.

Originally posted by Wardsweb
To where to go from 99% to 100% you would have to buy something from NASA that would align the ions of the air in the room. :D

At least your room would smell fresh.;)

Ours is mainly vintage, Yamaha CR-1020 driving Polk Model 7Bs, samsung DVD player. Last evening we watched Master & Commander and the sound was great. Only time we ever watched all the credits because of the music accompaniment.

Rob

Good question. I don't think you need to spend a fortune. But, I also don't think anything can realistically be called high end. I feel you can get very good sound with less $$, but it takes a little creativity.

Say you have $500 total to put a system together. I'd bet most on this forum could put something pretty nice together. However, those not so familiar might run out and get the biggest things they can at Best Buy and not have anything decent at all.

Then again, to some it's only about the music and they really don't care where it comes from. Fair enough, as long as YOU enjoy it. That's what matters.

Originally posted by one1speed
I feel you can get very good sound with less $$, but it takes a little creativity.

Say you have $500 total to put a system together. I'd bet most on this forum could put something pretty nice together.

Try $100. Some of us scroungers can do it for even less. Find a vintage used Pioneer/Marantz/Sansui/Kenwood/Sherwood receiver for $15-20, set of EPIs, Advents, or Boston Acoustics for $15-20 and some surrounds from MAT and you're all set. It may not be "High End", but it will sound better than 95% of the systems out there these days!

Don't ask what my JBL 4311s and Marantz 2265B cost; I'll get arrested for theft!

Like at my s/n for my answer.;)

You DO NOT have to spend a fortune to have a nice system. To go from 99% to 100% you would have to buy something from NASA that would align the ions of the air in the room. :D

Views here do not represent the management or their affiliates. Your milage may vary.

I have just up-graded to the newest NASA ion air molecule aligner and now have their Gen 11 model available at a substantial discount. Warning!!! Tres expensive. Serious inquiries (many $$$$$) only, please. Oh, but the sound!! Once you've heard your system with the air perfectly aligned so that the sound can channel directly to your ears you will wonder how you ever managed to listen any other way. Buyer is responsible for all costs associated with tractor-trailer freight and crane rental for delivery.

Money is what it tkaes to get you into an audio system....what you get out of it can't be attached with a price. For my parents an AM radio is all they need to enjoy the music. They get as much out of that radio as I out of my tannoy.
I was in a hig -end store yesterday and saw a Mcintosh amp with a 9500.00 price tag. I'd get no more pleasure out of it than I do my pawn shop philips, and the money saved can get my kids a year of tuition :scratch2:

For those that have the $, sure spend it, for thoe that don't(like me) , I do consider what I have HI-FI, beacuse 99% of the population couldn't tell the difference between a Kenwood and a Krell in a blind listneing test.

I agree.

Just came back from getting an oil change on our 2002 Kia Spectra, and ended up p urchasing a 2004 Kia Rio for our second vehicle to replace a 1990 Ford Ranger. I STILL think FORD is short for "first on race day" :D

I got the Rio for 2 reasons:

a) the Kia dealer feels like a second family
b) the same reasons Krimney just iterated for audio

For what the second car will be used for, it makes NO sense to me to spend any more on a car that will be driven less than 20k a year at the most. It starts, it goes, reliably, with a 5 year bumper to bumper warranty. I almost considered a 4 year old car for the same money with no warranty and 100k on the clock. :yikes:

I'll save my pennies for the Porsche when I start to lose more hair. :sigh:

I always figure it's your money so spend as little or as much as you want on stereo gear or whatever else turns you on (as long as it doesn't hurt others). I have been up to a mostly new McIntosh system, but most of their stuff doesn't sound as good as it looks, IMHO (however, the MC-500 is a truly great sounding amp).

Now, after listening to many, many different pieces of gear over the past 35 years I have pretty much found what I consider the best sounding electronics. And my total investment today is around $3500 (one eighth of what I had in the McIntosh system). I think my playing in the future will be limited to speakers and cartridges, once I get a VPI ScoutMaster TT.

Omer - Getting a Porsche doesn't help. I've been bald for 20 years and drove a 911 Targa for 18 of them (sold 2 years ago - no longer can be bothered with a clutch). Stop lights and traffic congestion are a great leveler of the automotive playing field. Even here in moderately populated south Jersey. Have found that a Targa is like a motorcycle. It is generally either too hot and sunny or too cold and wet to have the top off. Uh-oh. Is that the definition of 'getting old'?

I doubt there are many here at AK who drink the Stereophile Kool-ade. If you trolled this Q at other audio sites I'm sure the thread would soon be closed, edited or erupt into the mother of all flamewars.

The term "high-end" is often abused for marketing (and bragging rights). A year ago I strolled into a local GW and they had some cheap BPC junk. Some customer was hanging around the gear and kept telling everybody who was trying to test something how the stuff was "high end". Maybe to him it was but I gotta think WTF? If Bose rocks yours world then I'll leave you in Fantasyland while I play my JBL/Adcom system (not "high end" by any stretch of the mind but it gets me to 90% of perfection).

To answer the big question, *anybody* (myself included) could enjoy any system (even <shudder> Bose). Its just a matter of your mindset. If you just stepped off Gilligan's Island and hadn't heard heard music in ten years, a drug-store CD walkman and a Britney Spears CD would have you smiling ear to ear.

Well, maybe not Britney but you get my point...

Part of me wants to convert the masses from mid-fi garbage but I have enough to do. Besides, if everybody dumped their cheap BPC and went high end or classic, there would be a lot more people fighting for the good gear.

As somebody pointed out earlier, sometimes all you need is mid-fi.

I long ago realized my quest for audio perfection was not going to be via the classic high end route. Buying a $500 new piece of gear was out of the question due to unemployment and other issues. I'd rather have six vintage pieces than one brand spankin' new high end piece anyways. Far more flexible IMHO. If one amp doesn't sound good with your "new" pawnshop speakers, then try the one you put in storage last summer.

I'm not trying to rag on the geniune high end gear makers and dealers (especially those of you out there in tonight's listening audience). You have continued the spirit of quality hifi gear that has disappeared from the average consumer's radar. When I was in tech school part of me thought the coolest thing would be to have my own high end audio company. Didn't turn out that way but hey, I'm having fun...

After being stuck on an island for 10 yrs, Brittney would be EXACTLY what I'd need.......then Jessica simpson :D

They wouldn't even need to sing.

Like most folks have stated, high end is a state of mind more than a economic plateau. An example, a good friend came over shortly after I'd saved and bought my Mac stuff in 1971. He listened to my setup and remarked "I have an Airline console at home that sounds just like this" I was furious at first but luckily held my tongue. I started to think about what Bill had said. He wasn't trying to be cute or hurtful at all. To him they did in fact sound the same. So I learned a few things that have stuck with me. 1. Hi-Fi or Hi-End is in the ear/eye of the beholder. 2. I do not have to defend my idea of Hi-Fi to anyone but myself. 3. Everyone you meet can teach you something if you'll just listen. Now the clincher for me. Knowing those three things and living by them is harder than I thought :D

An Aiwa system and a Mac sound to me almost the same at the same loudness level. But, the real difference is not in sound. A cheap looking stereo system just doesn't look/sound good.

Without reading the above posts I have to say neither. High end performance is achieved through design and implementation.

At least your room would smell fresh.;)

Fresh and probably easier to breath, with all those ions just lined up to go into your nose... :D

I think also that the issue becomes not only the sound, but the looks, reliability, resale value, brand loyalty, sentimental value, etc etc...

I started thinking about this since I bought my McI's MC40's...awesome sound, awesome to look at,,,but I got a pretty close approximation to them when I had Musical Design amps that i bought for half of the Mc's...and you dont have to bother with tubes...But what can you do?? When you always wanted something, you will most likely get it, regardless of its qualities...I mean,,why would anybody wanna own old MG's, unless their brother was an electrician/rust removal specialist...but people buy them...

I don't think cost is the be all and end all of Hi-End Hi-Fi systems.

Sure, it's reasonable to assume that the more you spend on an item, the better it will be and that's a good philiosophy but often buying cheaper lesser known stuff is just as good. I've found that buying last years technology at a fraction of the price of the current model is more often the better option.

I have what I consider to be a Hi-End system (Krell MD-10 / Studio DAC, Audiolab 8000Q, TubeTech Genesis, ProAc Response 1SC) where the list price is £21,500 but i've only paid around £6,800 for it all. Sure it's not the latest stuff around but i've gotten a lot of bang for my buck (or pound in my case). What's more it's all classy stuff and the resale value is probably the same if not more due to the original owners losing the most when they sold them to me. Only the speakers were brand new.


Overall, the only thing that matters is that you enjoy the music. Getting into the Hi-End can be a frightening thing and you can rack up some pretty impressive figures on your credit card very quickly. That's all well and good if you can afford it but a scary prospect if not. A lesson that i've well and truly learnt the hard way. :worried:

I've also learnt that building a vintage system on a shoelace budget is also just as satisfying. The sound of the resulting system is obviously in a different league but the fun factor is way off the scale.


Personally, I'm glad that I got my both my Vintage and the Hi-End rig. I get a lot of enjoyment from them both. If you get to appreciate what you have and get to understand it's strengths and weaknesses the bug need not bite you. I've not changed much at all in my hi-end system for almost five years now and currently have no real need to update anything for a long while. The quality remains long after the fashion has gone.

I think past a certain price point, whether it's new or vintage equipment, there is point of vanishing returns, where you are not going to hear any improvement. I think some of the subtle improvements people claim to hear are more a factor of listening to your system more carefully over a prolonged period of time because you expect to hear something. Now you pick up on all sorts of nuances that you missed before because you had no reason to listen to them.
I didn't spend alot on any of my equipment, mostly because I bought it used or in non-working condition. But most of it was expensive once!
That is why Vintage audio is such a bargain, because you can buy really fine equipment that would actually cost far more to manufacture today for pennies on the dollar. So, no, you don't have to pay alot to get good hi-fi, and yes, it did cost alot of money at one time!
A friend of mine and I went to a Stereophile Show in LA in the 1980s and we went to a talk given by Sam Tellig, "audio cheapskate" collumnist. So we raised our hands and talked about the ultimate in cheapskate activities; buying great vintage audio stuff that was broken and fixing it! All he could say was most people don't have that ability, but if you read the posts on AK, I'd say there are more and more who do, or want to learn! :thmbsp:

I agree with Dr Audio , finding a quality piece of vintage equiptment is a big part of the fun , repairing it if needed is even better , replacing caps , setting bias and offset and listening to the results of your efforts can be very rewarding , I have no definition of " High End " nor do I want one .

I spoke with an on-line friend when I finally me at his favorite audio dealer in San Diego about products beyond certain prices. He'd recently bought a pair of Joseph Audio Pearls and we talked about other speakers in the same and higher price brackets. We agreed that anything over about $20,000 list for a pair of speakers got you "different" but not necessarily "better".
Once you go beyond a certain point with any type of component, you end up simply trading one deficiency or compromise for another.
:scratch2:

Huh?!? I thought vintage was the 'high-end'.

I've also learnt that building a vintage system on a shoelace budget is also just as satisfying. The sound of the resulting system is obviously in a different league but the fun factor is way off the scale.


This is a big ole "TOUCHE!" from our friend across the pond.

I have some JBL L46's that are beat to s#@$ given to me that I got reconed, inverted, sitting on top of Cerwin Vega D-5's (1984 vintage) that I actually dug out of a ditch to be picked up by trashman, reconed as well, and an Epay Sansui AU-G99X that was filthy, just needed a good cleaning. Technics cassette player from 1978, dug out of a garbage bin as well, Technics turntable from Epay 30 bucks, and Luxman G-120 eq, given to me as well.

Grand total for all this ?? About 290 bucks. AND I LOVE IT MORE THAN MY REFERENCE STUFF (Infinity, Onkyo)... :yes:

Gotta love a bargain.

BTW, anyone out there like that ham-fisted Metallica/Michael Kamen stuff?? Well, give "The Glorious Burden" 's second disc, "Gettysburg" by Iced Earth, a spin. Especially track 3 on Gettysburg. Big cannon blasts, heavy guitars, just AWESOME! :thmbsp:

I'm all about the vintage high end, that is if Klipsch, McIntosh, and JBL is "high end" circa 1955-1975.

I dream of Klipschorns, Belle Klipsch, Cornwalls - JBL Sovereigns, Olympus, and Dorian - Altec theater cabinets and classic furniture cabinets - McIntosh tube amps and classic Nakamichi tape decks.

Why? Because you get TOP FLIGHT WORLD CLASS performance on new mid-fi dollars. These are the gears that through all of the roaming-the-halls at CES, sales pitches from manufacturer sales reps, and roaming various high end stores could not draw my attention from. These products grabbed me by the boo-boo the very first time I listened to them - so I still persue my all time favorites. I have yet to get the JBL and Nak desired - but maybe someday :)

Of course, there are limits. I cannot afford to pay ebay market prices for this stuff, and deals on such gears are harder to come by. Yet still, they exist. And I still recommend to the average joe looking at $500-1000 speakers at the local chain to buy a pair of classic klipsch or JBL instead - they will come out ahead in sound, longevity, and style!

I have also built several systems as gifts for several friends and married couples - new condition vintage gears make great gifts! I put together a system using Klipsch KG4's and a Luxman 1030 receiver (both looked brand new - and the Luxman was over 25 years old - never unpacked). That setup shredded the current owner's previous system....a Pioneer/Bose system from the early 90's that the parents paid a couple grand for. Another couple has a pair of Klipsch Chorus that we refurbished and gave as a wedding gift - we've managed to make thier one year old a speaker snob! The child LOVES the Klipsch sound, but ignores similar music played through the TV. Kid won't respond until the Klipsch are on!

Yamaha B-2 has it right....vintage IS the high end - or at least, a big part of it. You can't talk high end - like BEST EVER, without talking vintage. Because quite frankly, we know most - if not all we need to know in many aspects of audio - ideas that have already been implimented. That means those speakers you dream of - the best you ever heard - may be in reach, because they aren't sitting in some boutique audio shop - they are probably in somebody's garage.

Maybe I am missing the complete satisfaction that comes with "the perfect hi-end set-up" but I agree with Bot. I am having more fun with my six systems, mixing and matching, upgrading, tweaking and tuning, all the time while listening to another set. I have found that some of the most amazing sound comes from one of my lower end systems- it depends on the music and the position of the dials- "Damn I gotta play that again!" If I had one perfect system I would be bored. My son sold hi-end and now owns his own automotive sound business. He has a very expensive hi-end system at home and he had to admit that my vintage system (for less than one 10th the money) was close. That was of course after he tweeked the equalizer,etc- it is an individual taste. Spend a couple hundred on vintage and you will get hooked.

I'd rather get my hands dirty trying to fix a used component myself that may not sound perfect or "high end" rather than have the perfect high end component that never dirties my hands. To be blunt, the more something costs, the more I'm afraid to use it because I'd always think of the money spent. I'd feel that I would need to try to preserve the investment rather than enjoy it. Probably because money is hard enough to come by.

There comes a point where the law of diminishing returns starts to take hold. I'd say right now that what I have is "good enough", considering everything. And that's fine with me. If that makes me look less valid in the eyes of the Stereophool crowd then great. I wouldn't want to be in that snob club anyhow. I'd rather listen to music than listen to components.

Tom

After 35 years of audio exposure, both selling and enjoying I think the if you like it it does not matter what it cost. Like some of the previous post I have enjoyed the big ticket and the free and most of the time it is pretty tough to tell the difference. Of course 30 plus years may have an effect on hearing????Huh???

My bedroom system is a Sherwood S-7100A ($25) paired with EPI 100V's ($30 after refoam)

Considering the investment... :yes: