Full throttle

[Wireworm5]

Got the DB's up to 105-107 decibals this morning without blowing any speakers. Never had it this loud before. My Paradigms just get better the more juice I add.
I was a little concerned that maybe this time the neighbor would be pissed. I needn't have worried however. When I finally left for work the wind was gusting so strong that it was making more noise than anything I generated. At work in the staff room it sounded like thunder with the wind pounding on the roof.:eek:

[Jack G]

Originally posted by Wireworm5
Got the DB's up to 105-107 decibals this morning without blowing any speakers.

You *will* damage your hearing at those levels.

Jack

[Wireworm5]

I may go deaf at an early age. But I'm of the opinion as long as the music is distortion free its not dangerous as we are led to believe. I have been playing music loud for many years for long hours generally speaking at 95 to 100 db peaks and I still hear fine. However if I use the headphones at loud levels then I'll have ringing in my ears afterwards. This I believe is damaging.
At the casino where I work I think the noise is more harmful than distortion free loud music. With the constant buzz of people talking, slot and video machines dinging. And the low frequency rumble of the air conditioners on the roof that nobody else seems to hear.
I have found when listening to music loud for long periods of time. There comes a point when my ears become fatigued. And I lose interest in music. That's when I take a break for a few days and let my hearing recover.
:)

[gyusher]

Continuous(sp) exposure to Sound Pressure Levels above 90db can and will cause hearing damage reguardless of distortion. You can be exposed to loud volumes for short periods without damage, I dont remember the curve but sound at 120db can cause damage in a few seconds. the ringing in your ears is damage that if not taken away from loud sounds will become permanate. OSHA figures 8hr at 90db to me minimum without hearing protection.
A loud movie with peaks around 105-110 db are fine as long as you are only exposed for brief periods. just dont subject yourself to this noise for extended periods.
Do not think that its the distortion as it is sound pressure period, you may dislike distortion but your ears dislike loud noise period. When your ears are ringing they are healing. . . Let them heal or they will either ring forever or you will have hearing loss. Might not be important now but it will be damned important when you start ageing. . . It is true that bass is less harmful than higher frequencys but its still the level not the distortion that damages hearing.

[Sandy G]

Uhhh, yeah, you only get one set of ears & they gotta last you a loooooong time. Do what you want, but please be careful. 'Nuff preaching. -Sandy G.

[gyusher]

Sorry for the soapbox thing but I used to be the compliance officer where I used to work and as such I had to keep over 1000 people from hearing loss while working in a millwork factory. to make matters worse my Boss was old school and thought you were supposed to lose your hearing as you get older. I was also a pistol shooter, still am, and I know first hand about ringing in your ears. More than once I wouldnt think about my ear muffs untill after the first shot. . . . My ears would ring for days. . .

[Haoleb]

Im not sure about distortion hurting your ears.. i think its the physical feeling of your ears literally hurting when you hear something very distorted, like a boombox blasting those shrill highs and midrange.

I know that the sound systems in the busses we have are horrible, when we get a driver who turns it up it really makes my ears hurt, just because of the sound, maybe even if its not REALLY loud.

When im listening to my system i can turn it up pretty darn loud but it doesnt hurt my ears., much louder than it would be on the boombox or bus.

[gyusher]

I agree some sounds are more offensive than others. . . Actually loud music or what you consider loud music on a time weighted average in your listening room is usually less than 90db with peaks around 100 or even 105. . . You might consider ear plugs after 8 hours of this. However in an automobile things get crazy quick. first you have to overcome 70-85db of road noise at 65-75mph. . . In a confined space you might be averaging over 95-100 db just to overcome the road noise. Ever notice the next morning when all is quiet and you start your car only to be blown away by the extreme volume. Mine is worse as it gradually gets louder the faster you go so who knows what you are subjecting yourself to. . .

[Lazarus Short]

Here's what I do about noise at speed. I put in earplugs, which does a lot to reduce the road noise, and then turn the stereo up to compensate. I then have more music, less noise, thus, a better signal-to-noise ratio. How's that for a cheap tweak??

Laz

[grumpy]

Take it from me after 21 years of printing presses and loud music you will harm your ears. Its irreversible and it SUX !

[House de Kris]

Hey Wireworm5,

How did you make this measurement? Is this with a Radio Shack handheld meter? Fast or slow? A- or C-weighting? Right at the speaker or at your listening position? All of these questions have a big impact on how we should interpret your claims here. When discussing this with the compliance officer, you should use A-weighting with slow response at you listening position. When trying to impress your friends, set it to C-weighting fast response and measure within an inch of the front of your speakers.

As a point of reference, I recall a time way back in my college days when I was playing some Hawkwind for a friend. He liked to grab the SPL meter from time to time to "see where we're at." One particular bass solo that he had reported as, "tickling his throat," was measured as hitting peaks of 121dB SPL C-weighted at the listening position. Not bragging here, just sharing one similar experience. That was over twenty years ago and my hearing acuity is still described by others as amazing.

[Wireworm5]

I was in the mood to rock. So I set the the volume to 30 on my Yammie to where the sound level usually peaks at C weighting Fast response at my listening position between 95 and 100 dbs on my Radio Shack meter. I was listening to The Blueman Complex with the heavy drums. In this recording it was registering approx. 102 dbs and peaking to 105 and 107 dbs(A weighting fast response, approx. 90 peaking at 97 dbs). I have to admit at this volume I feel the bass pressure.
Not so much lately, but I listened to the stereo for approx. 30 hrs a week when working the night shift for 3 years. If these levels are harmful as suggested even with clean distortion free music I should be deaf already, but I'm not.
For me the music does not seem loud unless there are distortion clues. If distortion was there consistently I could not listen to music at these levels.
Just last night at the karaoke bar after work, where the volume was loud using a PA system type speakers. The off key singing was very irritating. I couldn't wait for them to quit.

[grumpy]

A huge part of my hearing was lost from standing in front of a blasting radio at work for 60 hours a week.

I used to think that loud shit was never gonna effect my hearing. I made fun of the guys at work who wore hearing protection. Well 4-5 years ago it started. A ringing that NEVER goes away. A quick trip to the Doctor for a hearing test confirmed that I lost partial hearing in my right ear ( the side the radio was on ) Not to mention now having Tinnitus which is a lovely sound :rolleyes:

Gamble with your ears if ya want but I am extremely careful now. 100 Plus db is not needed to enjoy music. I was only about 30 when this started happening !

[Jack G]

Originally posted by Wireworm5

Not so much lately, but I listened to the stereo for approx. 30 hrs a week when working the night shift for 3 years. If these levels are harmful as suggested even with clean distortion free music I should be deaf already, but I'm not.
For me the music does not seem loud unless there are distortion clues. If distortion was there consistently I could not listen to music at these levels.


It takes time. It is well documented that high dbs cause hearing loss. Distortion has nothing to do with it.
Besides, how do you know you *haven't * had some hearing loss?

Jack

[gyusher]

I was going to post the link but I think this is important enough to post the whole deal. . .

0 dBA Sound Pressure Level is the threshold of audibility. It is the softest sound we can detect. It is far softer than our environment, and most of us have never heard such a soft sound.

30 dBA Sound Pressure Level is the sound level of a quiet room, with all doors and windows closed, and no ventilation systems on. We characterize it as "extremely quiet." A normal classroom at Berklee, during the day but when nothing is happening in that room, has a Sound Pressure Level of between 35 and 45 decibels.

60 dBA Sound Pressure Level is the sound level of somebody speaking to you in normal voice, as heard from a few feet away.

70 dBA Sound Pressure Level is the sound level of easy listening music over loudspeakers where we are using it as a sort of pervasive noise perfume -- a little loud for talking over in intimate circumstances, but not as loud as a typical unamplified live performance. 70 decibels Sound Pressure Level is also the sound level in a quiet car at 60 mph with the windows rolled up.

80 dBA Sound Pressure Level is moderately loud sound. Typically, you can listen to music over your hi-fi system at 80 decibels Sound Pressure Level without making your neighbors complain.

90 dBA Sound Pressure Level is fairly loud. It is the sound level I use for mixing (which is to say that I set the monitor levels so that 0 VU on the console output meters yields a Sound Pressure Level of 90 decibels -- more about this later). Students often tell me that they feel my 90 decibels Sound Pressure Level is quite loud, and they would prefer to mix at a somewhat softer level.

100 dBA Sound Pressure Level is extremely loud. It is about as loud as acoustical instruments (except drums and trombones) can play.

110 dBA Sound Pressure Level is really loud. It can only be obtained through sound reinforcement. It will be irritating and painful for many of the listeners. It is the sound level of a circular saw cutting through hardwood, or a chain saw at full bore, as heard by the user.

120 dBA Sound Pressure Level hurts! It is the sound level of jet engines, et al, from a safe distance away, say 100 feet.

130 dBA Sound Pressure Level is the sound level of contemporary Formula 1 race cars under full throttle from 15 feet away, or the sound level inside a Winston Cup stock race car.

140 dBA Sound Pressure Level is the sound level of jet engines or rocket motors or howitzers or other implements of mayhem as heard close up.

150 dBA Sound Pressure Level is the sound level of a .357 Magnum revolver heard from a foot away from the muzzle (off to the side, of course -- head on is even louder but wouldn't really matter anymore . . . ). This is a peak level that fortunately lasts for only a few milliseconds. Do not try this at home!
Sound Pressure Level is measured with a special meter-plus-microphone device. Cheap Sound Pressure Level meters are available from Radio Shack for under $50. Usually, they read out in decibels Sound Pressure Level and dBA (switch selectable) and with fast or slow detection times. Fast detection times give a display that correlates quite well with how we hear, and are averages of the most recent 1/10th of a second of sound. The result is that the levels jump around a lot, and it is often difficult to determine what the ongoing average Sound Pressure Level is. The slow detection option averages the levels of sound over the most recent second of time. This yields a considerably steadier meter reading (the meter will act like it is damped by molasses!) while exposed to music, speech or other rapidly changing sounds. Cheap meters usually cannot measure very soft levels (below 40 decibels Sound Pressure Level).

Hearing Damage

Our ears are extremely complex, delicate, sophisticated devices. They can and do break. The pain we've mentioned above is nature's way of telling us that we are exposing them to the risk of damage. Such damage results in temporary or permanent deafness or other problems. For musicians, such losses are devastating.
Various Types Of Problems
Temporary Threshold Shift is a protective response of the hearing system to loud sounds. It occurs after exposure to loud sounds, and is a period of partial deafness. The ear mechanism has conditioned itself to the loud environment and the eardrum and middle ear bones are both held over in their "protect-the-inner-ear" state for some hours after the exposure. For me personally, I've noticed that it usually takes a day after I mix a rock concert before my ears are back to normal. Often, some ringing in my ears is audible for a while.

Ringing, static, clicks, tones, etc. that seem to spontaneously appear in your hearing are called tinnitus. They occur as a result of the nerve endings in the inner ear firing spontaneously. Often, we notice tones in our ears when the surrounding environment gets very soft. Tinnitus begins to be a problem when it gets loud, doesn't go away, and begins to modify the sounds we are listening to.

Sometimes, tinnitus happens as a result of prolonged exposure to loud sound. Sometimes it is due to legal drugs, including aspirin and quinine (no kidding, watch out for those gin-and-tonics!). Sometimes, it becomes a permanent condition. As you age, it will become more prevalent (I've got some always with me now that I'm 50, but mostly it does not present a problem for me.).

Deafness is the loss of hearing ability. Total deafness is when you can't hear anything at all. Partial deafness is when sounds seem really soft and indistinct, right up to the threshold of discomfort.

Conductive hearing damage refers to damage to the outer or middle ears that results in sound information not making it to the inner ear. Such damage can sometimes be corrected by surgery. It is the result of physical injury or trauma, but not usually due to loud sounds.

Nervous hearing damage refers to damage to the nerves on the basilar membrane in the inner ear. It is these nerve endings that transmit sound data to the brain. Each ear has about 30,000 of them, but they are not redundant -- each of them represents a different frequency, so that as they are damaged, the bad news is that the ability to detect certain frequencies can be partially or totally lost. The even worse news is that the frequency region where they are most sensitive and likely to be damaged is the region where our hearing sensitivity for speech and musical timbre is most critical -- around 4,000 Hertz. As we damage our ears due to loud sounds, we will do so first in the frequency range that is most important for us. The worst news of all is that damaged nerve endings can not be regenerated. Damage 'em and they are gone! Gone, gone, gone forever!!
OSHA Standards For Exposure
OSHA (the Occupational Safety and Health Administration of the U.S. Federal Government) has determined exposure limits to various Sound Pressure Levels for industrial purposes. The same levels are relevant for music performance, but they represent a level of exposure that I personally can't tolerate. These standards are based on large scale statistical studies of hearing damage in the working population, and they correlate well with the increase in risk that any individual has in regard to hearing damage. Unfortunately, we do not know why hearing damage occurs to some people and not others for a given exposure level, so it is not a given that if you expose your hearing to levels in excess of the OSHA standards you will damage your hearing, just that such exposure will result in an increased likelihood of damage.

The basic level set by OSHA is:
85 decibels Sound Pressure Level for 16 hours per day.

This means that as long as the average level you listen to over a 16 hour day is no greater than 85 decibels Sound Pressure Level, you are not at any statistical risk for noise-induced hearing loss.

Each increase of 5 decibels Sound Pressure Level requires a halving of the exposure time, so that, according to OSHA, you can stand:

90 dBA Sound Pressure Level for eight hours, or

95 dBA Sound Pressure Level for four hours, or

100 dBA Sound Pressure Level for two hours, or

105 dBA Sound Pressure Level for one hour, or

110 dBA Sound Pressure Level for 30 minutes, or

115 dBA Sound Pressure Level for 15 minutes, or

120 dBA Sound Pressure Level for 7 minutes. Not!
For music quality work, I can't imagine subjecting myself to these exposure times. For mixing, I set my levels at 90 decibels Sound Pressure Level and I cannot imagine sitting there with the meters hovering at 0 VU for eight hours continuously -- I would find it absolutely exhausting and deafening. For music work, I would suggest that you consider one quarter of these exposure times (90 decibels Sound Pressure Level for two hours, for instance) as manageable and safe maximums.

It's worth talking about what is really going on in my 90 decibels Sound Pressure Level mixdown situation. When I set up the control room, I send pink noise to both loudspeakers through the stereo mix bus, so that 0 VU is showing on both Left and Right channels. I then adjust the level of the monitor master so that both speakers together generate a 90 decibels Sound Pressure Level at my listening position. This means that the actual 0 VU level for either speaker is somewhere between 84 and 87 decibels Sound Pressure Level (depending on how phase-coherent the control room is). During mixing, levels usually are at between 0 and -5 VU, with highest levels never greater than +3 VU. This translates to a working range of about 8 decibels Sound Pressure Level for pop music, between 85 and 93 decibels Sound Pressure Level. Time spent examining individual tracks results in listening levels between 78 and 85 decibels Sound Pressure Level.

Keep in mind that these levels are not continuous. They only exist while the tape is rolling, which is generally about 30% of the time in a productive mix session (much less in either tracking or overdubbing sessions). The rest of the time, silence (well, maybe conversation at 60 decibels Sound Pressure Level) is the main sonic component.

The reason I talk about this is that the safety concern about Sound Pressure Level is based on time-at-level, so that when the good folks from OSHA measure the levels in a room, they do it over time and come up with an average level over time (called equivalent level or Leq) that is the basis for assessing the amount of risk of hearing damage. In my mixdown situation, that Leq is probably about 70 to 75 dBA Sound Pressure Level at worst, maybe as low as 65 dBA.

It is interesting to me, and it is probably relevant to you, that this level is irritatingly loud for most of my students, that I find it tiring and too loud for extended listening (I seldom listen at home at this level) and that it is well within the safety limits prescribed by OSHA. This means that unless your studio levels are truly crazed, you probably aren't working at dangerous levels.

The same isn't true for concert sound, in either the arena or the club. If you work there as well, you've got to watch your levels much more carefully. Also, there are some tricks to help you with socially responsible levels while not really doing anything to dim your reputation as the baddest dude to ever push a fader past 11. A detailed discussion of these belongs in another article, for another day.
Practical Hints 'n Things
We don't have to play loud to sound loud. The subjective sense of loudness can be enhanced by a couple of things: the change from a softer level, and the onset of distortion.

Regarding the former, Count Basie made it a trademark to set up the audience for some loud sting by having just the rhythm section play, quite softly, for an extended section, then to blast them with a full fortissimo brass sting, and then go right back to the pianissimo rhythm section. The stings sounded deafening, but they weren't really much over 100 decibels Sound Pressure Level. So, if you drop your overall level, your loud stuff will have that much more impact.

Regarding the second item, the addition of distortion makes music sound louder. If you can control the onset of distortion and make it happen at a lower level (under control), the band will still sound like it is really cranking and really loud, but without nearly the actual level or risk of damage. It is ironic that really clean sound systems need to run much louder to have the same emotional impact. A studio designer told me once about a studio monitor system he'd installed that was extraordinarily free from distortion right up to 125 decibels Sound Pressure Level. When it went into service, everybody loved it, but then all the engineers and producers working there started getting headaches and couldn't understand why. When the designer investigated, he found they kept cranking levels until they got to distortion, at 125 decibels Sound Pressure Level! He solved the problem by lowering the onset of distortion at an intermediate gain stage in the monitor system!
Ear Plugs
Ear plugs are a basic hearing protection device. The problem with them is that they change the quality of the sound. I can't mix reliably with them in. I personally can't imagine playing on stage with ear plugs, but I suppose performers do get used to them. Some manufacturers are trying to build musically viable plugs to get around this.* Anyway, in the studio, I can't imagine wearing ear plugs unless someone wants to listen to a playback really loud and I have to be there. Just so you know, it is usually considered reasonable manners to leave the room if somebody wants to really thrill themselves. In any case, I suggest you consider wearing ear plugs anytime you are in a really noisy environment, except when you are making critical musical decisions. I've even tried wearing them during commuting, and find they make the Fresh Pond Follies (Boston's infamous commuter whamo) and Route 2 (The Road With No Speed Limit) comparatively peaceful-feeling.
* If you want more information about such ear plugs, I suggest you get in touch with the House Ear Institute, a non-profit clinic that has gotten actively involved with the music industry in regard to hearing damage. They usually have an ad in H&SR.
SPL Meters
Lord Kelvin said, "To measure is to know." Buy a cheap Sound Pressure Level meter and use it. Get to know the levels you work at. Learn to know by ear how loud sounds are and how much risk they really represent for you.
Control Of Sound Reinforcement Systems
When you are performing with sound reinforcement, if you can get control of the monitor system levels you can really help yourself. Often, the monitor levels are determined by the loudest acoustical sound on stage, which is usually the drums. If you can get the drummer's levels under control, you can thing begin to bring down monitor levels, and the whole thing becomes a little more palatable.

You have to fight, here, against the dependency on loud levels to generate emotional intensity in the band. I once mixed sound for a major MOR artist whose monitor mix was up in the 110 decibels Sound Pressure Level range while the house mix for the audience was down around 85 decibels Sound Pressure Level! The band simply had become dependent on fire and flame out of the stage monitors to feel good! Watch out for this tendency in yourself, particularly when you are tired.

Most of all, just keep in mind that you can wreck your ears, and that if you do you are going to have to start over in another profession. Hearing damage comes on slowly, and you can't tell for sure whether that most recent little screech of feedback really destroyed some nerve endings or only felt like it did. This is a place to be conservative and careful. Happy listening!



Copyright 1993 David Moulton

[opt80]

This is a very interesting thread.I will relate my own experieces,if you will indulge me.
I have hearing loss in my left ear,attributed to road noise.I think it originated from my early days in optics from the high-pitched whine of the lens edger(he was such a loser)
On a flight from Halifax to St John's in 1988 I suffered a barro-trauma of my right ear,in other words my eardrum burst.
Since I was flying quite a bit in those days,my doctor implanted tubes(I wanted Transistors)
Since then any high-pitched noise will cause my ears to *fill up* like I have a cold(one of the reasons I got rid of the wife*)
If I go down to our optical lab and stand by the edger,while it is edging I can feel my ears filll up.
I fear losing my hearing,many people fear losing their sight.Since I have a better understanding of sight,more so than hearing,my fear is greater,
Thanks for the time and space

Alan

[House de Kris]

Thanks to gyusher for posting that description by DavidM. Lots of tidbits there. From my personal experience, I've found that the difference between A-weighted readings and C-weighted readings is about 10-15dB, depending on music style. So this would put Wireworm5's level in the low to mid 90 dBA region. This is approximately where DavidM claims to mix at. If Wireworm5 was just "testing out the gas pedal," then there would seem to be little permanent damage to worry about. If he were doing this for 12 hours a day, every day of the week, for a year, then we should probably try to talk him out of such a stunt.