With all the new formats and 'extended' formats coming, a new buyer would be overwhelmed! Just how many channels are required for an enjoyable surround experience!

I reckon 5.1 is adequate for most purposes, but a center back channel may improve it that extra bit - beyond that I dont see much discernable improvement during movie watching, and certainly a lack of practicality within the limited spaces we have to place speakers!!@ (mind you if one had to go in-wall speakers....)

ofcourse if you dont have good bass, that .1 is mandatory.

You know Genix, this is my take on it. The typical home theater is a small room. Small being ohhh let's say an average living room etc. might be 12' x 20 there abouts. I can't imagine people cramming much more than the 6 speakers (5 and sub) in such a room. (In wall speakers? They are getting better but...) When home theater first hit the market it was the old stereo Dolby Pro Logic. That was fun and I myself ran it for years. But when Digital 5.1 hit that was amazing! 5 separate channels and a deticated LFE? Ohhhh yeah! The separation of sound was fantastic and the bass was no longer muddy or blended in to much. More channels in such small rooms? I just don't see it and can't believe it would be very productive. As it stands right now, one can't get source material with more than 5.1 output anyway. My reciever allows me 6.1 but why? :)

The only reason I can see a need for the rear center channel is for background dialogue. Dialogue coming from a source not in the scene, but behind you. Which would be cool but as Wildwest pointed out, there's nothing encoded in 6.1 anyway. I've even heard of 7.1 receivers. What's the 7th channel used for?

5.1 gives me more movie enjoyment than I could ever hope for.

Take care

I agree - other things to consider is that dedicated subs tend to produce bass much better than the lowwer range floorstanders (this isnt a problem if youve spent thousands on your mains)... so why not get a sub for left and right in addition to the LFE since left and right channels can also get down to the 20-something frequencies?

I agree with you both tho' - the new receiver 'channel wars' are a bit silly. I dont know anyone who would even *buy* the extra channels. If I had a 6-channel receiver, I wouldnt use the 6th.

"so why not get a sub for left and right in addition to the LFE since left and right channels can also get down to the 20-something frequencies"?

Interesting. I thought in 5.1 reproduction that the audio tracks were designed such that any bass frequencies were automatically routed to the LFE channel when speakers set to small. I didn't know that the right and left main channels would be allowed to go that low unless one set them to large. But why do that when most mains don't handle lower bass very well. (cept Tom's and Thor's) I found setting my mains to large only caused an improper sound field. It's like, the engineers that design DVD tracks want you to send the bass to the LFE. Just like in the theater eh? Hence the reason for a LFE channel. My Harman Kardon 510 cuts off the mains at 80 hz. So having right and left subs to back up my mains wouldn't do anything for me. My main speakers never go below 55 hz for any type of sound reproduction. Anything under that and my SVS sub picks it up. I never felt that I needed dual subs for any reason. Now if I got into a MUCH bigger room well, maybe. With my SVS sub two feet south of a block wall corner I can't tell where the bass is coming from what so ever. It fills the room extreamly well. :)

WW,

you're right - when you set speakers to "small" (effectively enabling the LFE channel) then the receiver's built in (and usually fixed unless you're lucky) crossover kicks-in and sends all frequencies through the LFE channel.

My receiver (a Yamaha 800) has a fixed crossover at 80 Hz. When I set my speakers to "small" all frequencies below that are sent to my sub.

If I set my speakers to "large", I am effectively disabling the LFE channel and the normal full range will be sent through the other 5 channels. Very few people that have HT do this. The reason is that there are very few speakers that can handle down to 25-30 Hz at +/- 3 db to the rest of the setup. An active sub is equipped to do this because it has it's own dedicated amp and usually a 10-12 inch woofer.

Now having just told the story of a classical HT arrangement, let me add that I don't have mine set up like that at all. I have my speakers set to "large" and my sub is "off the line". But I think this has more to do with the inferiority of the sub that I have compared to my good quality full range mains (with 12 inch woofers) that can handle the LFE's no problem.

Additionally as I have stated elsewhere, my use of my setup for HT purposes has diminished over the last 6 months, and I am using my setup more for 2 channel music, which is probably the main reason I reconfigured my setup to be specifically good for that rather than optimised for HT.

In the future, if I were to get back into HT in a big way again, I would probably separate the 2 uses because I think there are just too many compromises in trying to set up a system for dual use (HT & 2 ch stereo).

And to answer the question posed in the subject line - I can't see any point in more than 5.1 channels. Pro-Logic to DD was a big jump ... anything from here is going to be more discrete and incremental change - i.e. your ears won't notice a big difference.

:)

Walt, from what I know I would disagree with you. If your speakers are set to small, then the bass will go thru the LFE (sub).. but if they are large then the sub should not be disabled.

Large means the speakers are full-range, and in addition the LFE can be used for low frequencies. I would be surprised to find that the LFE becomes inactive.

You might be right - that is why I said effectively disabled ...

I tested my system when I originally set it up for HT. It took me a while to figure out that to generate any significant bass out of the LFE/sub I had to set the speakers to "small". When set to "large" I was getting virtually no response out of the sub - so effectively disabled from a practical standpoint.

I don't mean to interrupt, but my receiver has a function to turn the sub off altogether. It is a question rather, asking: sub--yes or no. I also have the small and large settings for the speakers as well.

Hey, no need to apologise Dryb!

What would your receiver be then?

Originally posted by Walt
Hey, no need to apologise Dryb!

What would your receiver be then?

It is an Onkyo TX-DS575. I bought it in April of 1999. 70W X 5 RMS. Excellent little 5.1 receiver. Hard to believe it has been 3 years already.

This thing also has settings asking for distances from your seated position to each individual speaker. Whatever that does for the overall sound effect I have not figured out. I just approximated the distance and ran with it. Sounds pretty good anyway.

Take care Walt.

My denon also has such features, dryb - can set distance to listener from speakers, and also turn sub on / off.

Since I dont have a sub, I turn it off, and all my bass comes thru the mains. Technically my surrounds are also full-range. I havent tried them on/off this setting so I dont know if full-range surrounds make too much difference - or if I would hear it since my surrounds are still bookshelfs standing my on MX4 boxes as stands :-D

I have 3 stereo amps and one mono block no subwoofer. I use the DVDs DAC and interconnects. This allows me to turn off the center and back channel amps and use my best amp and speakers in stereo by using the remote to change from 5.1 to 2 ch. By the way for those that are thinking of getting a new DVD/CD player I just bought a single disk Sony player that does DVD/SACD/CD for $180 at Best Buy. So far I am very pleased with it. I am going to do some mods on it as soon as I find out what to do.

Hi Thatch,

I have a question about your setup. Is your entire system ONLY the DVD/SACD/CD player and the amps (plus cables, of course)?

If so, your DVD/SACD obviously has rca/analog outputs for each encoded channel (FL,C,FR,LR,RR,LFE). Does your Player also have the volume control and all of the setup menus to adjust the sound?

If this is correct, this is a very simple system and one that might meet the needs of a lot of "budget" audio/videophiles. Heck, not having to buy a processor/receiver with a bunch of unneeded functionality is AWESOME!!

If your system is as described, the biggest concern I would have is with CD playback in 2-channel. My guess is an el-cheapo DVD/SACD player uses a digital domain volume control. How does it sound for 2-channel music?

Enjoy,

TIC

My copy of Gladiator claims to be 6.1 Nonetheless, I don't think I will ever have a 6.1 or 7.1 setup. As it stands right now, I'm at a 4.0 level and am pretty happy.

About 10 years ago I purchased an Onkyo SV-70pro. prologic with sub out. With 2 front(paradigm 3 se) 2 rear(mini mk2) paradigm center and a 10" powered paradigm sub. There was more volume in my living room than any theatre I've ever been in. It is great and adequate for any movie I care to watch, but personally I've been listening to vintage 2 channel stuff. I think all this high tech 6.1, 7.1 and I'm sure something new on the horizon is just marketing to ensure that young males continue to part with their ard earned cash. I've finally got my younger 22yr old brother convinced an old pair of Akai speakers with 15" woofers(50 bucks) ARE as good as his buddy's 500.00 brand x speakers he bought on credit at the local mega store. Essentially music hasn't changed much in 30 years and the way it is reproduced hasn't either.

Yes there's quite a list of 6.1 titles on DVD.

Most are in Dolby EX, which isn't a true 6.1 format, the 6th channel is matrixed out of the two stereo rear channels.

The only true 6.1 format is DTS 6.1 Discrete (or whatever they are calling it this week).

http://pub106.ezboard.com/faussiedvdandhtforumsonytae9000esinformationforum. showMessage?topicID=1303.topic



As for setting speakers to "small" and re-directing the bass to the fronts or sub, I think this is a dopey idea, even if you use small speakers, as it effectively re-mixes the soundtrack to something that was not originally intended by the producers.



How many channels is enough ?
For HT 5.1/6.1 is plenty.
Most people can't even setup 2 channels, let alone 6...

My own humble system usually uses only 2 prs of speakers, both full range for front and rear.

IMS I don't need a center (many systems can do without one too).
My main speakers have plenty of bass for my room so don't need a sub.

And my preamp doesn't do true 6.1, only Sony's fake "Virtual 6.1".


cheerio

Well to put my 2pennies in here, here is my setup:

B&K Ref 30 (7.1 capable) into a 5 channel Outlaw 750 feeding DefTech Bp2002s, 2000 C/L/R center, and BPX rears....

I don't know why anyone would need the two extra channels unless the HT was HUGE. I've got 25 by 18 or so of room in the HT (don't really remember the actual dimensions right now) and this combo is more than enough.

I got the Ref 30 because of the excellent audio quality, the extra channels were gravy, but a gravy that's going to stay in the can for quite some time....

In conclusion...nice gimmick, but 5.1 seems like it's going to keep me happy for a long time to come.

Just to qualify my comment...6 and 7.1 are only gimmicks for most of us...in a BIG room they could ad that extra "umph".

I have the cheapest JVC reciver for HT (didn't care about quality when pick it for HT) DD and dts, wish I had Pro Logic2, anyway, it is 5.1 and I have all my spekaers set to small (vintage KLH 17's for mains, JBL N-center for center and N24's for rear)

anyay, in a 7.1 system, you have 2 mains, 2 middle speakers (go on the side of you) and 2 rear (go behind you) and then a center in the middle ontop the TV, persoanly 8.1 woudol be neat, but it would have to be a quality 8.1 (7.1 but add a rear center)

anyway, every DVD has a LFE signal, that goes to the sub, if you turn subwoofer off, then it sends the LFE signal to the mains, when you have any spekaer set to large, they get the full range, when set to small, the basss below the crossover point get's sent to the sub, so the sub is not only doing the LFE signal, but anya nd all bass from any speaker set to small

I run all my speakers as small, I proably could get away with setting the 17's to large (2-way 10" woofer) but they are 36+ years old, and I don't want to push them too far, plus I would rather my ()cheap) sub take that bass.

on my receiver, I have a center delay and rear delay for changing the sound, I can choose the crossover freq. to 80hz/100hz/120hz althouh I keep it at 80hz

is my cheap JVC (RX-6010) hi-fi? no not bny any standerd, but I paid $180 for and, and it's worth all of that, does evertyhing it says it can do,a nd I don't expect any miracles from it, and it does anything I could want.

of course for music, or anything hi-fi I use my vintage 2ch. system. but for me, 5.1 is enough, I really wish I waited,a nd got the RX-6020, which replaced my 6010, becuase it is the same proce, but adds 5.1 direct input (for SACD and such) and Pro Logic2, which is really neat, and I wish I had (lot of video games are in PL2)

but like I said, I set out to find a receiver about a year ago, with 3 things, dd, dts and the cheapest thing I could find, so $180 later and I had a brand new JVC RX-6010

Ten, at least. The usual six, plus left and right back surrounds and left and right top surrounds. I don't have ten, but that's what I want.

The question was about number of channels, but I'm just referring to signals fed to speakers in different locations, where the signals are all different and approximate the sound which would be coming from those locations at a live event. The different signals might be discrete channels in the source recording, or might be matrixed, or might be derived in some other way.

A reason for having more speakers is to supply reverberant sound to mask those reflections that make us think we're in a small room.

Originally posted by Walt
WW,

you're right - when you set speakers to "small" (effectively enabling the LFE channel) then the receiver's built in (and usually fixed unless you're lucky) crossover kicks-in and sends all frequencies through the LFE channel.

My receiver (a Yamaha 800) has a fixed crossover at 80 Hz. When I set my speakers to "small" all frequencies below that are sent to my sub.

If I set my speakers to "large", I am effectively disabling the LFE channel and the normal full range will be sent through the other 5 channels. Very few people that have HT do this. The reason is that there are very few speakers that can handle down to 25-30 Hz at +/- 3 db to the rest of the setup. An active sub is equipped to do this because it has it's own dedicated amp and usually a 10-12 inch woofer.

Now having just told the story of a classical HT arrangement, let me add that I don't have mine set up like that at all. I have my speakers set to "large" and my sub is "off the line". But I think this has more to do with the inferiority of the sub that I have compared to my good quality full range mains (with 12 inch woofers) that can handle the LFE's no problem.

Additionally as I have stated elsewhere, my use of my setup for HT purposes has diminished over the last 6 months, and I am using my setup more for 2 channel music, which is probably the main reason I reconfigured my setup to be specifically good for that rather than optimised for HT.

In the future, if I were to get back into HT in a big way again, I would probably separate the 2 uses because I think there are just too many compromises in trying to set up a system for dual use (HT & 2 ch stereo).

And to answer the question posed in the subject line - I can't see any point in more than 5.1 channels. Pro-Logic to DD was a big jump ... anything from here is going to be more discrete and incremental change - i.e. your ears won't notice a big difference.

:)


Walt,

I can relate to your experience. My first foray into Pro Logic was with the formidable DSP-AZ1 with 8 speaker output including front surrounds and rear center. I also added two subs as the amp allows me to do that. I use the Yamaha 260W rms MX1 amps for main out and they are attached to the floor standing Yamaha NS 300 speakers which can go down to 30Hz. I have set all the speakers to large as I am using NS 100 rear surround and center and NS 300 front center. I also have the bass out set to BOTH in the speaker setup. This gives me good bass as the main amp puts out serious amounts of power and combined with my two YST 800 subs the bass in my system is pretty formidable. I have the subs set at 60Hz, this way I get a good compromise for music as well as HT. All my speaker settings are LARGE as the NS 100 rears can handle bass all the way down to 60Hz. Setting the speakers to small seem to take out the ambience from the system in surround mode.

Most movies arent decoded with the rear center out feature and thus it is 5.1 for most movies. My initial reaction to DSP modes was like a kid with a new toy( 61 DSP programs ) but lately I am back to dedicated 2 chanel stereo listening for most materials. Some classical and rock do benefit from DSP but overall I like the sound of my music in good old stereo. I for one would reccomend getting a reciever like your RXV-800 which is a award winning model with very good quality and get some good towers and subs and a seperate main amp if your budget allows it instead of investing in a full blown DSP amp unless you are a big HT fan.

Most 6.1 and 7.1 are done at the receiver or decoder - especially 7.1 sound.

There will possibly be a 9.1 setup now - this will have one speaker mounted high front center and one low front center.

The HT manufacturers just want us to by more equipment.

Dave

I wouldn't mind getting one of the 80s recievers that were set up for 2 large mains and had some 25 watt outputs for satallite speakers so you could get a so called "Hall" experience with a micro second delay. With one of those it might be possible to add a pair of small speakers to add to the back channel so that when watching a movie that has basically front to rear effects that it could be possible to create an illusion of even greater space to the room.
If there are also effects that go from rear to front this could be turned off so as to not adversely effect the sound stage. It could be very effective with the right movie. Or if not I would be out very little as these old recievers tend to have been fairly cheap when new.

Thatch,
That is how many of the lower end HT receivers work now. The back channels get lower wattage.

Right now I am happy with our 2-channel HT (of course it helps to have a plasma screen:D :D :D ). Maybe it I can find 6 matching amps (say old Onkyo's or McIntosh) then I would just go for a nice HT preamp.

Dave

I don't know about others but the higher end Denons (and you can get good deals on ebay for them) have pre amp outs so that you can use seperate amps. I will be using seperate amps to power my fronts, rears, and subs and will use the receiver to power the front and rear center channels, when I can go 7.1 I will use amps for all the rears and subs and will use the receiver to power the fronts and the front center channel.

Originally posted by THOR
I don't know about others but the higher end Denons (and you can get good deals on ebay for them) have pre amp outs so that you can use seperate amps. I will be using seperate amps to power my fronts, rears, and subs and will use the receiver to power the front and rear center channels, when I can go 7.1 I will use amps for all the rears and subs and will use the receiver to power the fronts and the front center channel.

Most of the Yamaha and SONY as well as Onkyo recievers have either a mains out of pre out on their back allowing you to attach a seperate amp.

For a good deal check out http://www.yamahashoponline.com/product.asp?sku=2224845

This reciever is being sold off in the clearance section by Yamaha and in its time was a good mid line product. It has 80 watts left, center and right and 20 watts in the rear. At $129 it is a steal for someone on a tight budget.

Originally posted by Yamahaluver


Most of the Yamaha and SONY as well as Onkyo recievers have either a mains out of pre out on their back allowing you to attach a seperate amp.

For a good deal check out http://www.yamahashoponline.com/product.asp?sku=2224845

This reciever is being sold off in the clearance section by Yamaha and in its time was a good mid line product. It has 80 watts left, center and right and 20 watts in the rear. At $129 it is a steal for someone on a tight budget.

It's just a Pro Logic receiver, not even dd or dts and those wattage ratings are at 1khz.

a good deal for someone on a budget would be my JVC RX-6010 (now replaced my the 6020 which adds PL2 and 5.1 direct inputs) but it is the legendary 100wattx5, dd/dts, not a horrible tuner either, it does everything i want it to, and I am happy, I got mine for $180 shipped. I wish I had the 6020 though becuase I heard PL2 is real neat and alot of PS2 games are in PL2 and stuff.

But with new formats/channels coming out every year.... I'll stick to my 25 year-old 2ch. stereo system for real, good music, and my cheap 5.1 HT system is doing a great job at surrond sound for tv/ps2/dvd

Originally posted by Night Wolf


It's just a Pro Logic receiver, not even dd or dts and those wattage ratings are at 1khz.

a good deal for someone on a budget would be my JVC RX-6010 (now replaced my the 6020 which adds PL2 and 5.1 direct inputs) but it is the legendary 100wattx5, dd/dts, not a horrible tuner either, it does everything i want it to, and I am happy, I got mine for $180 shipped. I wish I had the 6020 though becuase I heard PL2 is real neat and alot of PS2 games are in PL2 and stuff.

But with new formats/channels coming out every year.... I'll stick to my 25 year-old 2ch. stereo system for real, good music, and my cheap 5.1 HT system is doing a great job at surrond sound for tv/ps2/dvd

Yamaha's power rating is pretty conservative compared to other manufacturers, plus you get the benefit of the Yamaha sound at $129 . In this case though the JVC seems to be a good deal with 100x5, usualy when Yamaha says 80W you can be gurranteed that it is around 100w in most cases. JVC always made quality recievers, better than quite a lot of other manufacturers around, but lately they seem to have fallen out of limelight.

Plenty of new formats coming up every day. This makes the manufacturers sell more of their stuff including speakers, but is there related software to use them. The answer is NO. Very few movies out today use rear center and by the time it looks to become obsolete and be replaced by another format. Do I use the 61 DSP modes in my AZ-1 for music, no, I use them for novelty's sake when friends and neighbors drop in. I purely listen to 2chanel for music, one of the reasons I still use a seperate mains power amplifier.

Are you talking about vintage Yamaha and mebbe higher end stuff cuz they also sell the same BPC as Sony, Pioneer, Kenwood etc. at the big box stores and I see no difference in sound or quality between any of them within the same price range.

Originally posted by THOR
Are you talking about vintage Yamaha and mebbe higher end stuff cuz they also sell the same BPC as Sony, Pioneer, Kenwood etc. at the big box stores and I see no difference in sound or quality between any of them within the same price range.

Hi Thor,
Just lift up any comparitively priced Yamaha and SONY and you will feel and see the difference as well as hear it. The high end like AZ-1 still remains the benchmark. For instance the RVV-800 at 100x5 weighs in at 30lb compared to SONY's similar offering at 18lb. The transformers and caps in the Yamahas, Onkyo, Manrantz and Denon are bigger than their competitors in general.

The Yamaha HTR series may be a different story altoghether.

Glad I bought a Denon then ;)

Originally posted by THOR
Glad I bought a Denon then ;)

Good choice. Denons are well built and have better sound than the Onkyo.

Ill agree that the DD and DTS was a jump over Pro-Logic For MOVIES. I have a RXV-795A That i got on close out for $299
I love it. I have not cared for most of the DSP modes for music.

I have heard some of Yamaha's older 7 channel DSP processors
And so today i picked up a DSP-E300 that has a 7 channel set up.

Im going to put this with my AX-500u Int amp and see what happens. For $55 ill take a chance. If not then it will go in the sons room with the R-700 Reciever and he will have a HT set up.

P.S. The HTR Series sold by Best Buy/AKA It's in the ad but we do not have any:eek: Is not something I would buy.

I finally made it to 5.0 Surround Sound a few years ago.
I use an older 80's model PIONEER Pro -Logic HT linked to my SPEC rig powering the front speakers and the HT powering the center and rears.
I am content.
I have read about 8.1 ,9.1 and I have heard they are wanting to go as far as 14.1,wonder how it will be marketed?
Very unlikely most will want over 14 speakers in their front room or other viewing room much less have the room or want to wire such a thing??

Right now I think that five channel DD/DTS is more than enough given what the current content is. In my opinion the most important elements are quality amplification in all five channels, a good sub and a really good center channel. My next speaker project (after I finish these 2-ways for upstairs) is a good 3-way center channel for the home theater. Currently using a B&K avr-202 with a sony 5 disk universal changer for home theater.