I am going to be recording some more music at my school.


See next post for a clearer idea of what's happening.

Reading up on techniques....and taking into account that 2 mikes have to be where they are now, I have come up with these possibilities:

master recorder will be my Akai GX912 cassette deck. Mixing board will be a Mackie SR24 (we got ours switched out temporarily with a fully working one from the district).

These are going to be for the main stage sound. There will be some special situations detailed at the end of this post. The rail that I can mount stuff on is about 40 feet long (maybe longer), and is about midway above a trapezoidal stage, where the performers will be under, most of the time.

Performers will be: multiple choirs, a symphonic orchestra, marching band, and a couple of A Capella groups. there will be up to 8 stage mics in use for the various performers that will be used for soloists and the A Capella groups. Those will be panned to their respective positions (or, at least, I’ll try to pan them) in the hall and how wide I want the singers to be.

I’ll be mixing this live, so It’s not like I’ll be able to experiment with this as the show goes on….it’s all live, but at least this time, I’ll have control over the mix during the show….

1) 2 Shure MX202 overhead cardioids on stage, with a Shotgun mic in between them, aimed down at the stage. Cardoids are about 10 feet apart (30 foot wide stage) and have a 185 degree polar response.

2) 2 overhead on stage, as above (those have to be where they are), with one recording mic mic between them, 2 SM58's on the extreme ends, pointed out, to capture room sound

3) 2 overheads, one recording mic between them, Shotgun above and behind the stage (yes, I can get a mic there) pointed at the stage.

4) 3 overheads, 2 omnis on the ends of the line

5) Spaced omnis. About 10 feet between them

6) Spaced Omnis again, just this time with an overhead between them. Or a SM58. In effect, a ginormous skewed Decca Tree. Something like 30 wide x 20 deep.

Those are the major combos that I can think of.

Parts available for placement almost anywhere:
Rode NTG-1 Shotgun mic
2x AudioTechnica recording mics (omnis)
6x Shure SM58’s (maybe more)
Shure 588 (old Shure Cardoid, one of the ones I used to record dulcimerlex’s dulcimer)
1 Shure Microflex MX202
2 of the above hanging on stage, general position not changeable

Specialty stuff:

4x Shure SM58’s will be used.

Or possibly a recording mic, too.

One pair of SM58’s will be aimed in XY configuration on an area that a small jazz and will be performing in, which is a corner of the theater that is not conducive to main stage mic pickup. This will be playing some solo stuff, and providing backing tracks to most of the choirs that need it.

One pair of SM58’s will be positioned over the aisles, because the percussion section spills out into the audience (goes up the aisles), and I would think that getting a mic on both of the aisles would be a great thing. Does not have to happen though. I just think that it would be a cool thing to mic.


I mentioned the Shotgun mic behind the stage because some of the softer instruments get blotted out (they are on stage) while the percussion section is out front with the horns…I could point the Shotgun at the back of the stage.

If it was possible, I could also aim it to the back of the theater and capture some of that sound, too, behind stage. That’s if there are no people back there to make noise…

If there’s a Piano at the other side of the theater from the small jazz band, I could also aim it at that. That’s the most likely place for it, if I use it at all….

I'm a little confused, are you doing the sound and recording the concert or just recording? :saywhat: If just recording will someone else be doing sound for the show? The sound person needs to be taken into consideration as any micing that person does will change the sound.

If this is just recording I think you are going overboard, with all those different mics you are going to have problems with phase cancellation. Forget the shotguns, not really useful and will cause more headaches then anything. I say keep it simple, go with a simple cardiod x/y or spaced omni. If you can handle it and have the room and the mics maybe try a deccatree. Especially since you will be going straight to two-track. Speaking of which why a cassette? I haven't recorded a concert to cassette in 25 years.

I got permission to put the Teac A-3340S up here. I'm in the booth now.

:D

Mixing down to 2 tracks, still.

So I am about to put the omnis on either sides of the theater, and angle them in...

And the jazz band will be doing some solo stuff, so I will throw an XY pair of SM58's on the small area off to the side where they are gonna be. They're LOUD LOUD LOUD, so I won't have any trouble picking them up.

So the final configuration is:

2x Shure MX202's with a 185 degree pickup pattern on the stage
2x Audio technica omnis on each side of the stage, angled in.

And of course, the XY on the band, which is waaaay off to the side and would just be over hard in one channel.

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii298/vinyldavid/1221857199.jpg

That's the theater as it is now. Gonna move the mikes outward....somehow....I have no clue how to attach them off of the catwalk, though. We'll see what presents itself.

How big is this hall? If its not too large you might not need the x/y cardiod on the band, you would be surprised what spaced omni's can pick up. The space I usually record holds around 550 people and we hardly ever use more then two spaced omni's or a single stereo mic. Here's a picture of the hall I work in:

http://www.childrensmusicworkshop.com/images/schoenberg.gif

Again, keep it simple, since you have moved up to a 4-track now you can record two sets of mics on different channels, say omni's on 1 & 3, with x/y's on 2 & 4. That way you can listen to them later and see if you actually need the extra mics for the Jazz band, and if you do you can mix them together later.

How big is this hall? If its not too large you might not need the x/y cardiod on the band, you would be surprised what spaced omni's can pick up. The space I usually record holds around 550 people and we hardly ever use more then two spaced omni's or a single stereo mic. Here's a picture of the hall I work in:

http://www.childrensmusicworkshop.com/images/schoenberg.gif

Again, keep it simple, since you have moved up to a 4-track now you can record two sets of mics on different channels, say omni's on 1 & 3, with x/y's on 2 & 4. That way you can listen to them later and see if you actually need the extra mics for the Jazz band, and if you do you can mix them together later.

I spotted the speakers and the area where the jazz band will be, to give an idea of space...It's a 300 seat hall.

The jazz band will be way off to the side, and will be entirely in the left channel.

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii298/vinyldavid/1221860185.jpg

I spotted the speakers and the area where the jazz band will be, to give an idea of space...It's a 300 seat hall.

The jazz band will be way off to the side, and will be entirely in the left channel.

From my perspective its not a big deal, its how everyone will hear them. Plus if the FOH mics any of those instruments they will come out of the speakers as well. Last year I recorded a Jazz band with a big choir, the band was on the far left with the choir in the middle, it came out sounding just fine. If you want to get them in a better stereo field then do the x/y on the jazz band. I would still record them on separate tracks and give it a listen later.

Remember, with that 4-track the tape won't last as long as your cassette deck. Depending upon speed and tape mill it could last an hour to 15 minutes. The faster the speed the better the quality, the slower the speed the longer you can record on a single reel. Its a trade off.

From my perspective its not a big deal, its how everyone will hear them. Plus if the FOH mics any of those instruments they will come out of the speakers as well. Last year I recorded a Jazz band with a big choir, the band was on the far left with the choir in the middle, it came out sounding just fine. If you want to get them in a better stereo field then do the x/y on the jazz band. I would still record them on separate tracks and give it a listen later.

Remember, with that 4-track the tape won't last as long as your cassette deck. Depending upon speed and tape mill it could last an hour to 15 minutes. The faster the speed the better the quality, the slower the speed the longer you can record on a single reel. Its a trade off.

They will not be miked separately during most of the performances. Only for a couple of songs will these mikes actually be used. And they will only be recording. The setup will be such that the mikes angles will not coincide with the speaker output, AND, we will not be micing them. I am pretty sure of that..

They're too loud as it is! (They're called TDL, seriously. [TDL=Too Damn Loud!] We always have problems with their volume without mics)

And TDL is absolutely amazing, they're worth it.

besides, we already ran the 2 extra cables....that was the hard part...

For when the band and choir are performing together, I will not use the XY pair. Only when in solo do I run those.

I am going to use a Quantegy 457, which is 3600 feet, so it will last either 96 or 48 minutes/side depending on what speed I use. I am leaning twoard 15ips....

Also, I am effectively running the FOH at the show. I'll have help, though, as I have never mixed with the overhead mikes. This whole thing is going through the Macke SR24.4 mixer. I am using the record busses to go to my Teac. For once, we have enough channels to do all this craziness.

OK...so again plans have changed.

Gonna do this a whole different way.

I found out that they are only using some wireless mics for the PA, and that the rest of the mics are free for me to use however I wish.

Orchestras:
Hanging mics:
Violins/center/Cellos
Soloists with Orchestras:
1 SM58 per soloist

Straight Up:
On Stands, 2 SM58, modified XY config
1 SM58 for solos, in the middle, being piped to the house, prefer if they moved out to it for their solo instead of passing it back and forth….

Soloist:
One SM58 on stand, mix with room sound (from A/T’s), or possible 2 more mikes for stereo farther back

Jazz band:

UNKNOWN, prefer to put 2 SM57’s on booms, and get them as far away from the drums as possible. Also, could do it like I did before, and attach the mics to mic stands and lay them out vertical out over the catwalk


Straight Up:
2x SM58’s on stands, one to pass around


Piano+solo:
2 SM57 on Piano, one on bass strings, one on treble strings.
One on solo (dunno if the Piano+solo thing is possible, they're not wireless and I am not sure what I can get away with doing on stage. For the most part, I will have a couple of people to help me get the mics to their intended places).

Stationary Choirs (on risers):
2x Audio Technica mics, with possible hanging mi about 15-20’ below.
Or just the 2 AT’s, spaced, angled in, and mixed together. On catwalk.

Marching Band:
Omnis. They’ll be angled in sufficiently to capture the sound coming in from all around them, while focusing in on the center section, which is often the softest.

Show choirs that move around a lot, like Pizzazz:
The 3 hanging mics from orchestra

I will be using the Franken Scotch (Ampex 457 on a scotch reel, NOS), and 2x 7" reels of 456 all at 15ips. Teac A-3340S R2R used. Mixer: Mackie SR24.4, from mix busses 1 and 2.

Microphones:

Shure MX202 (3)
Shure SM58 (many)
Shure SM57 (up to 3)
AudioTechnica semi--omni condenser mikes, that's what I think they are (2)

That's it.

I would seriously consider just an X-Y, M-S (Mid/Side - great for that "being there" sound and works great when being played on a mono system as well), or Decca tree configuration (will give a great image of the group and should give enough coverage to capture all players) for recording a group this size and keeping the balance without any cancellation problems, especially in the case that you have to mix on the fly. If you are going to use some solo mics I would recommend barely mixing them for sound support unless you can record to a multitrack medium and mix later. Heck, as mentioned before, two spaced omnis will do wonders!

Make sure to try out your configuration BEFORE the concert to sort out any problems during the sound check. I'm afraid you will find phasing and cancellation issues using the set up you mentioned earlier and will cause more headaches for you as an engineer than anything else. If you weren't mixing live I would say, "GO FOR IT," and get every possible channel you could find to capture everything possible. But, since you're mixing live it's a different game.

Stick with something simple and you won't go wrong. Remember, back in the 1920s and 1930s the entire recording was usually done with one mic leaving the band to balance themselves.

If the jazz group is playing at the same time as the rest of the groups then they should balance to not be "too damn loud." If they are alone then I could see setting up the secondary pair of mics and recording them individually. I still wouldn't recommend 58s for this as they have that "presence" rise in the upper mid range that is great for live voices but many times causes problems attempting to record as you are planning.

Just some thoughts....

I got permission to put the Teac A-3340S up here. I'm in the booth now.

:D

Mixing down to 2 tracks, still.

Why not 4?

je

I would seriously consider just an X-Y, M-S (Mid/Side - great for that "being there" sound and works great when being played on a mono system as well), or Decca tree configuration (will give a great image of the group and should give enough coverage to capture all players) for recording a group this size and keeping the balance without any cancellation problems, especially in the case that you have to mix on the fly. If you are going to use some solo mics I would recommend barely mixing them for sound support unless you can record to a multitrack medium and mix later. Heck, as mentioned before, two spaced omnis will do wonders!

Make sure to try out your configuration BEFORE the concert to sort out any problems during the sound check. I'm afraid you will find phasing and cancellation issues using the set up you mentioned earlier and will cause more headaches for you as an engineer than anything else. If you weren't mixing live I would say, "GO FOR IT," and get every possible channel you could find to capture everything possible. But, since you're mixing live it's a different game.

Stick with something simple and you won't go wrong. Remember, back in the 1920s and 1930s the entire recording was usually done with one mic leaving the band to balance themselves.

If the jazz group is playing at the same time as the rest of the groups then they should balance to not be "too damn loud." If they are alone then I could see setting up the secondary pair of mics and recording them individually. I still wouldn't recommend 58s for this as they have that "presence" rise in the upper mid range that is great for live voices but many times causes problems attempting to record as you are planning.

Just some thoughts....

I made a mobile XY/ORTF configurable stereo T bar on a boom with 2 wirelss SM58's on it. Not ideal, I know, but it will be useful. It's better than 2 wireless SM58's on conventional stands and trying to put them in XY or ORTF config. the jazz band gets ORTF, and so does a couple of duets, the soloists and such get XY. I'd have to put wireless packs on SM57's to use any other mic. And I don't wanna do that.

I am recording most of it with 3 hanging mics in a triangle arrangement right over the first chair violin, first chair cello and one over the center of the orch. An equilateral triangle, in effect, with legs about 4 feet long.

In regards to mixing live, I will only be using the PA for a LITTLE sound support on soloists such, otherwise, it's all recording.

There will not be too many sound checks, but I will have 2 days worth of after school rehearsals to go on, and I should be able to test things out then. It's mainly setting levels and moving the stereo mic array that I am worried about getting correct.

If I could place the omnis correctly, I would only use those two to record the whole concert. But I can't. It's not possible. I cna only hang them a maximum of a foot off of the catwalk, so I just go with what I can. my mother was kind enough to be a mobile sound source for the omnis while I checked their wiring and alignment, and it sounded like she was standing in my head....when she was 30' away where the choir is going to be.

I have high hopes.

Why not 4?

je

Not enough tape. I'd have to run at 7.5ips.

Here's the mics that are currently in the theater.
A friend made this and I modded it a little.

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii298/vinyldavid/Diagram1.jpg

Hey David
Not sure if it was you , but i suggested the at condenser mics (hanging phantom powered) for live recording.How do you like them?I've tried them in a small rehersal loft but found them almost too sensitve for the space,they have very impressive stats and would love to try them in a studio/hall app.

cheers

Hey David
Not sure if it was you , but i suggested the at condenser mics (hanging phantom powered) for live recording.How do you like them?I've tried them in a small rehersal loft but found them almost too sensitve for the space,they have very impressive stats and would love to try them in a studio/hall app.

cheers

well, I loved them. I recorded a couple of soundchecks with them as I created the rough stereo mix before the concert.

Once I get those transfered, I can send them to you, if you like.

In the meantime, if you can PM me your email address, I'll send you the one demo track that I have been sending out to teachers and students so that they can get an idea of what it was like. I believe that it was only recorded with the hanging mics. possibly a little of the AudioTechnica 3035 mics mixed in, bt it is mainly the hanging mics.

I would not think that they would work well in a studio, due to their insane sensitivity. One a couple of the tracks, I used them to pick up a violin and cello that was about 15 feet behind them, and 3' in front of a choir...and had no background noise.