Hey;

I have a Pioneer PL-S40 turntable (I know not the best out there) with the original Pioneer stylus. I am having inner groove distortion problems. It happens with every LP I play on either side when the last song on each side plays. From what I read on Google, it is caused by either damaged record, poor tonearm alignment or a bad stylus. All of the LP's I tried were used, however, I have about 15 factory sealed, brand new LP's. I am planning on sacrificing one and see if the same problem occurs. Meanwhile, I am looking for a decent stylus which will eliminate or at least minimize the problem. I am leaning towards Rega Bias 2

http://cgi.ebay.com/Rega-Bias-2-Moving-Magnet-Phono-Cartridge-NEW-IN-BOX_W0QQitemZ190257742748QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item1 90257742748&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C 240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

Any ideas on the inner groove distortion problem and suggestions on quality stylus is welcomed.

Cheers;
Des

If you want to minimize inner-groove distortion, I would highly recommend the Audio Technica AT440MLa. One of it's characteristics is that it's supposed to greatly reduce inner-groove distortion. I'm using it right now and, for the most part, that's what it does. I'm not saying you won't ever notice it, but it will be greatly reduced.

You can find it for about 90-100 bucks new including shipping if you look around.

EDIT: I'm sure there are other carts out there that will achieve a similar effect, but this is the one I'm most familiar with, as I just got one on Tuesday.

We need to hear you say you're sure the cartridge is aligned correctly... after all, that is what your Google search probably was talking about with regard to "tonearm alignment".

We need to hear you say you're sure the cartridge is aligned correctly... after all, that is what your Google search probably was talking about with regard to "tonearm" alignment".
Easier said than done. I'm not even sure mine is aligned properly. I know it's close, but that's about all I can say.

No cartridge will sound right unless it is properly aligned. Here is the alignment for the Pioneer straight arms. Keep the headshell square with the cartridge. (The front of the cartridge should be parallel with the front of the headshell.)

http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z81/hakaplan/PioneerStraightarmoverhang2.jpg

Easier said than done. I'm not even sure mine is aligned properly. I know it's close, but that's about all I can say.

I understand. I just put a Stanton 681 on a ProJect tonearm, and I must have aligned it pretty well because it sounds good in the inner grooves... I just got lucky... the 681EEE is relatively sensitive to alignment.

I understand. I just put a Stanton 681 on a ProJect tonearm, and I must have aligned it pretty well because it sounds good in the inner grooves... I just got lucky... the 681EEE is relatively sensitive to alignment.
Yeah... I have a couple records with epic tracks in the inner grooves (Television's Marquee Moon and Queen's Bohemian Rhapsody, for example) And they both sound fine. So, I must have gotten it pretty close. I mean, when you just look at it, it looks pretty darn square with the headshell...

I played with the headshell and the cartridge all night last night. I also aligned it to the dimensions hakaplan gave. No luck. I believe the records are damaged. Some are worse than others. Queensryche's "Warning" sounds much better (still distorted but totally bearable) than Accept's "Metal Heart" on the inner grooves. I also have Dio's "Sacred Heart" which has distortion on all the songs except the first tracks on each side. I need to spend $150-$200 and get a decent cartridge. Needless to mention a good turntable. I am after a Pioneer PL-630 this weekend.

I played with the headshell and the cartridge all night last night. I also aligned it to the dimensions hakaplan gave. No luck. I believe the records are damaged. Some are worse than others. Queensryche's "Warning" sounds much better (still distorted but totally bearable) than Accept's "Metal Heart" on the inner grooves. I also have Dio's "Sacred Heart" which has distortion on all the songs except the first tracks on each side. I need to spend $150-$200 and get a decent cartridge. Needless to mention a good turntable. I am after a Pioneer PL-630 this weekend.
Sure, the records could just be thrashed. In that case it doesn't matter how good your equipment is or whether it's properly configured.

Like I said though, an AT440MLa can be had for about 90 bucks after shipping. Check out this review of the cartridge over on youtube...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bqQZhoYC_o

Looks like a decent cartridge. Though I can't find it for $90 on ebay. Where do you see $90?

Looks like a decent cartridge. Though I can't find it for $90 on ebay. Where do you see $90?

I'll private message you about that... I don't know if we're supposed to be talking about it here.

Sure, that'd be great. Thanks

I played with the headshell and the cartridge all night last night. I also aligned it to the dimensions hakaplan gave. No luck. I believe the records are damaged. Some are worse than others. Queensryche's "Warning" sounds much better (still distorted but totally bearable) than Accept's "Metal Heart" on the inner grooves. I also have Dio's "Sacred Heart" which has distortion on all the songs except the first tracks on each side. I need to spend $150-$200 and get a decent cartridge. Needless to mention a good turntable. I am after a Pioneer PL-630 this weekend.


Great taste in music there my friend! I have The Warning, and its perfect. However, my Metal Heart album has distortion on the song Teach Us To Survive. That pisses me off because thats one of my favorites on the album. Im yet to get Sacred Heart. I held it in my hand at a music store last night, but decided on something else.

Cheers! Yeah that's where the distortion begins on my LP, Teach Us to Survive. Then it gets much worse on Bound to Fail, it's so bad it's almost impossible to listen. Udo's screeching, tearing vocals don't help matters either. Lately I've constantly been looking 'you know where' for factory sealed (not cut-out or promo but original) LP's for auction. So far I was able to grab Dio's Dream Evil, Deep Purple's House of Blue Light, Queensryche's Promised Land and Rage for Order, Scorpions' Savage Amusement and Manowar's Sign of the Hammer. The problem is, I don't have the heart to open one up and listen. Especially without a properly aligned, good quality turntable with a decent cartridge that will not cause any groove damage.

\m/

Cheers! Yeah that's where the distortion begins on my LP, Teach Us to Survive. Then it gets much worse on Bound to Fail, it's so bad it's almost impossible to listen. Udo's screeching, tearing vocals don't help matters either. Lately I've constantly been looking 'you know where' for factory sealed (not cut-out or promo but original) LP's for auction. So far I was able to grab Dio's Dream Evil, Deep Purple's House of Blue Light, Queensryche's Promised Land and Rage for Order, Scorpions' Savage Amusement and Manowar's Sign of the Hammer. The problem is, I don't have the heart to open one up and listen. Especially without a properly aligned, good quality turntable with a decent cartridge that will not cause any groove damage.

\m/

Yeah i know what you mean. A badly aligned cartridge will screw your records up big time. I have a couple of new records on the way, and im hoping my cart is in good alignment. The distortion begins on mine in the same spot, and gets worse also. Hmm, thats odd...

It still sounds like an alignment issue since it happens on all of your albums.
Bad alignment and vintage heavy metal bliss do not mix
I'll try to find a protractor to help

In the meantime...
Here's what was on my TT tonight
Needless to say we were into it
:rockon:
WopOnTour

It still sounds like an alignment issue since it happens on all of your albums.
Bad alignment and vintage heavy metal bliss do not mix
I'll try to find a protractor to help

In the meantime...
Here's what was on my TT tonight
Needless to say we were into it
:rockon:
WopOnTour


Straight to the toppp!!! Tooth and Nail!! Ha ha.

I don't think ALL my records are damaged. If it happens on every record, that means there's something wrong with the equipment. I am going to go ahead and purchase the cartridge synclavier82 recommended. I believe it will make a world of difference.

I don't think ALL my records are damaged. If it happens on every record, that means there's something wrong with the equipment. I am going to go ahead and purchase the cartridge synclavier82 recommended. I believe it will make a world of difference.
Cool man, I think you'll be pleased. I've listened to many records since yesterday, particularly listening for IGD, and I really did not come across too many instances of it. In fact, I can only think of one album that it was apparent on, Tangerine Dream's Rubycon. And, that album, despite looking very nice, is relatively noisy anyways. So, my bet is that it's the record, in this case.

So, I think for the money, the MLa is a pretty safe bet. Obviously, make sure you get it aligned with the headshell as closely as you can. Good luck with it.

I've been using my GEO-DISC since 1985 with good results. They're about $50.00 now, but well worth the price considering the use you'll get from it over time. Very simple to use. If you have Microsoft Excel, John Ellison's Baerwald spreadsheet is fun to play with to see how tonearm length, overhang, and alignment angle interact to determine null points and distortion across the album surface. Proper, accurate alignment becomes even more important with microline styli such as on the AT cartridge you're buying.

So, I think for the money, the MLa is a pretty safe bet. Obviously, make sure you get it aligned with the headshell as closely as nyou can. Good luck with it.Alignment with the headshell is not neccessarily a good thing.In fact it can often be the worst thing you can do (depending on the arm design) and CAN result in an incorrect offset angle, poor tracking and increased distortion. It's the alignment with the arm's arc and playing surface that matters. Bad alignment can result not only in bad sound but also results in accelerated wear in the stylus and LP groove damamge.
You should use some sort of protractor to get correct alignment.

The link below is a generic one for a typical straight 9" (228.6mm) arm from Feel The Music dot com with null points set at 70 and 127mm. You should be able to "land" your stylus on the null point target dot (without moving the turntable) and resulting in the cartridge staying in alignment with the guidelines.I beleive this one is based on an SME arm, so by measuring your own arm you can create more accurate null ponts for YOUR arm using a Baerwald or Loefgren calculation (or a spreadsheet that simplifies these) that you can download at Vinyl engine or FTM here: http://www.enjoythemusic.com/freestuff.htm

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/protractor2.pdf (hit REFRESH if the link wont work OR copy and paste into your browser)

WopOnTour
Note whe you print this make sure you dont have "fit to page" selected so the dimensions are correct

Alignment with the headshell is not neccessarily a good thing.In fact it can often be the worst thing you can do (depending on the arm design) and CAN result in an incorrect offset angle, poor tracking and increased distortion. It's the alignment with the arm's arc and playing surface that matters. Bad alignment can result not only in bad sound but also results in accelerated wear in the stylus and LP groove damamge.
You should use some sort of protractor to get correct alignment.

The link below is a generic one for a typical 9" arm from Feel The Music dot com with null points set at 70 and 127mm. You should be able to "land" your stylus on the null point target dot (without moving the turntable) and resulting in the cartridge staying in alignment with the guidelines.I beleive this one is based on a Rega arm, so by measuring your own arm you can create more accurate null ponts for YOUR arm using a Baerwald or Loefgren calculation (or a spreadsheet that simplifies these) that you can download at Vinyl engine or FTM here: http://www.enjoythemusic.com/freestuff.htm

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/protractor2.pdf (hit REFRESH if the link wont work OR copy and paste into your browser)

WopOnTour
Note whe you print this make sure you dont have "fit to page" selected so the dimensions are correct
No, sorry, that does not apply to all turntables. Pioneer used geometry close to Stevenson and its alignment technique, as I described with my diagram earlier in this thread, produces that result. If he tries to use Baerwald or Loefgren or ETM with this headshell he will run out of slot room and drive himself crazy.

It is possible that you are not aligning it correctly according to my diagram. If you want to double check, go to vinylengine.com and download the Stevenson protractor and see if your cartridge position coincides with the Stevenson null points.

No, sorry, that does not apply to all turntables. Pioneer used geometry close to Stevenson and its alignment technique, as I described with my diagram earlier in this thread, produces that result. If he tries to use Baerwald or Loefgren or ETM with this headshell he will run out of slot room and drive himself crazy.Ahhh Stevenson, never used it...
Sorry I missed exactly what you were saying in your post. So the Pioneers have an ajustable "pivot" to adjust the arm to headshell angle then? (besides heashell slotting?) Or are they just an ultra long (10") fixed straight arm? (I've seen some old Garrards with an adustable pivot (see photo) and wondered how the heck they were ever aligned.)
What represents the upper reference point in your diagram? A fixed mark on the arm?? Does it run out of slot room at the back or front?

Interesting Thanks
WOT

EDIT: So I found the data on the Pioneer S40 arm and it's 221mm, so what exactly is preventing the use of Baerwald or Loefgren? An odd (shallow) headshell angle? Excessive overhang? (for the 221mm arm) I mean I've heard of issues using B&L with some "S" arms such as those used on the Technics...

It is possible that you are not aligning it correctly according to my diagram. If you want to double check, go to vinylengine.com and download the Stevenson protractor and see if your cartridge position coincides with the Stevenson null points.
Funny you should reply to this now. I was just over at Vinyl Engine looking for a protractor for my SL-1200 M3D when I learned that Technics tables don't use the Baerwald scale... and that I would have to offset my cartridge to get it to line up. That's more than I bargained for.

I thought that if I just got my stylus point to line up as close as possible with the edge of the Technics overhang tool I would be good enough. But, then I got nervous after reading these last few replies... So, if I want to double check, is there a protractor I could download that won't require me to offset my cartridge?

I would totally pay someone good money to come to my apartment and set this thing up. Lol.

It still sounds like an alignment issue since it happens on all of your albums.
Bad alignment and vintage heavy metal bliss do not mix
I'll try to find a protractor to help

In the meantime...
Here's what was on my TT tonight
Needless to say we were into it
:rockon:
WopOnTour



Wop ! Nice choices on the Vinyl , i have had Krokus Headhunter on my table all week & also Motorhead "another perfect day " , i had bought some of the motorhead cd re-issues that were remastered what total utter crap ! made me egt my turntable fored up again , Motorhead never sounded so good :thmbsp:

No cartridge will sound right unless it is properly aligned. Here is the alignment for the Pioneer straight arms. Keep the headshell square with the cartridge. (The front of the cartridge should be parallel with the front of the headshell.)

http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z81/hakaplan/PioneerStraightarmoverhang2.jpg


Hakaplan , is this standard setup for most cartridges ? i just installed a shure/realistic rxt-4 , got a new needle for it & i'm running it on a realistic lab- 395 table , should the end of the catridge line-up with the end of the headshell ? & how do i know the needle is lined up proper ? thanks for any info .

Funny you should reply to this now. I was just over at Vinyl Engine looking for a protractor for my SL-1200 M3D when I learned that Technics tables don't use the Baerwald scale... and that I would have to offset my cartridge to get it to line up. That's more than I bargained for.

I thought that if I just got my stylus point to line up as close as possible with the edge of the Technics overhang tool I would be good enough. But, then I got nervous after reading these last few replies... So, if I want to double check, is there a protractor I could download that won't require me to offset my cartridge?

I would totally pay someone good money to come to my apartment and set this thing up. Lol.
Okay, don't panic. Null points are the two places on the record where the cantilever is tangent to the groove. Baerwald, Loefgren, Stevenson and others experimented to see where they thought the best points should be to provide the best overall compromise in the least distortion across the record. The Japanese manufacturers used points close to Stevenson. As long as you are lined up with one of these, you're fine. It makes sense to use the Technics points because a) it's fast and easy and b) that's what they designed the table around.

Virtually all Japanese manufacturers designed their tables so that you keep the cartridge square in the headshell. Then if you set the stylus tip at the specified position, it defines the manufacturers arm length and overhang. The headshell angle defines the offset angle. These are the variables that determine the geometry of the turntable. This may sound confusing, but trust me, use the gauge and don't worry about what others are saying.

Hakaplan , is this standard setup for most cartridges ? i just installed a shure/realistic rxt-4 , got a new needle for it & i'm running it on a realistic lab- 395 table , should the end of the catridge line-up with the end of the headshell ? & how do i know the needle is lined up proper ? thanks for any info .
No. First of all, this is the setup for Pioneer straight arm turntables only. Second, the cartridge does not line up with the end of the headshell. It is PARALLEL with the end of the headshell, which is a check to make sure that it is seating square. I do not know the distance for the stylus to the end of the headshell for the Realistic turntables. You would use the Stevenson protractor, keep the cartridge square, use the inner point, rotate the platter and move the arm until the cartridge is parallel with the lines on the protractor, then move the cartridge forward or back until the stylus tip lines up with the null point.

Ahhh Stevenson, never used it...
Sorry I missed exactly what you were saying in your post. So the Pioneers have an ajustable "pivot" to adjust the arm to headshell angle then? (besides heashell slotting?) Or are they just an ultra long (10") fixed straight arm? (I've seen some old Garrards with an adustable pivot (see photo) and wondered how the heck they were ever aligned.)
What represents the upper reference point in your diagram? A fixed mark on the arm?? Does it run out of slot room at the back or front?

Interesting Thanks
WOT

EDIT: So I found the data on the Pioneer S40 arm and it's 221mm, so what exactly is preventing the use of Baerwald or Loefgren? An odd (shallow) headshell angle? Excessive overhang? (for the 221mm arm) I mean I've heard of issues using B&L with some "S" arms such as those used on the Technics...

Okay, the three variables in determining geometry are mounting distance (pivot to spindle), effective arm length and offset angle. The MD is fixed. The manufacturer chooses the null points. They don't necessarily have to coincide with any known protractor, but the Japanese mfrs used points that were close to Stevenson. The choice of points dictates the arm length (221 in this case) and the offset angle, which they designed to be the same as the headshell angle. That's why they say to make the cartridge square with the headshell. Most of the time the cartridge ends up somewhere in the middle of the slots.

The two null points are basically the two solutions to the Side-Side-Angle triangle formula. If you change a Stevenson table to Baerwald or Loefgren, you are changing the third leg of the triangle, therefore the arm length and offset angle must change. The arm length will now be greater than 221mm. Most of time this will push the cartridge forward beyond the limitation of the slots. The cartridge will also have to be skewed out of square with the headshell. If you have slot room in the headshell, you can do it, but for most users it is just so much easier to use what the mfr had in mind.

You won't have enough room in these straight arm headshells. But on s-arms, by using a Technics headshell, which is longer and has slots farther forward than most other Japanese s-arm shells, you can do Baerwald or Loefgren if you want. And some users choose to.

Here's a couple of pictures of the turntable I am talking about. I am on my way to dl the Stevenson.

I downloaded the Stevenson protractor though I don't know how to use it. I believe I place it on the platter with the "use a pin to make a hole' being at the center (on the shaft) of the turntable. Then?

Rotate the platter and move the arm until the cartridge is parallel to the lines of the inner point. When that is lined up, the stylus tip should be on the inner point or very close to it.

Ever since I mounted my cartridge on Tuesday, I've been obsessing over whether or not I should attempt to make an adjustment. The right screw is ever-so-slightly further back than the left screw. It is incredibly close, however. In fact, sometimes it doesn't even look like there's anything uneven about them. My concern is that if I loosen those screws and try to make this minute adjustment, I'll only end up making things worse. That's how close this thing is.

Now, when I listen to a good, clean record, I really can't hear any inner groove distortion at all. And, as near as I can tell, both the left and right channels sound about the same, volume wise. Is this any indication that I'm close enough on alignment?

I've done the alignment. Originally, it was pretty close anyway. So I didn't do much playing with it. Things are the same however. Same IGD etc. This turntable has to go before I put my foot through it. It's a $30 junk anyway. I decided to look for a real quality turntable with a real good cartridge which I will play really good quality vinyl on.

I've done the alignment. Originally, it was pretty close anyway. So I didn't do much playing with it. Things are the same however. Same IGD etc. This turntable has to go before I put my foot through it. It's a $30 junk anyway. I decided to look for a real quality turntable with a real good cartridge which I will play really good quality vinyl on.
You know what I would do? I would keep that old table and only use it for your thrashed vinyl. Assuming you have the space for it, of course. I just got my turntable about a week ago and I thought I would be dumping my cheap Audio Tehcnica AT50 ($80 at Best Buy), but now I think I'm going to hang onto it and use it when I want to play something that isn't in very good shape. My copy of Dire Straight's Brothers in Arms, for example, has a massive warp in it. I just realized it yesterday while I was listening to Money for Nothing. So, rather than continue to play it on my nice cartridge, I think I'll use the AT50 for records like this.

I've done the alignment. Originally, it was pretty close anyway. So I didn't do much playing with it. Things are the same however. Same IGD etc. This turntable has to go before I put my foot through it. It's a $30 junk anyway. I decided to look for a real quality turntable with a real good cartridge which I will play really good quality vinyl on.
You know, I looked over this entire thread and not once did you mention what cartridge you are using, where you got it, how old it is, whether it is a new or old stylus. This turntable may not be an award winner, but I assure you it is not junk. What you paid has no bearing on its quality. People here have scored TOTL vintage turntables for $30. It is possible that some of your records have inner groove damage, but it is also quite possible that the stylus is bad.

First tell us about the existing cartridge and stylus. That may be the whole problem.

I agree with Howard. I bet the cotton-pickin' needle is worn out.

Doug

No. First of all, this is the setup for Pioneer straight arm turntables only. Second, the cartridge does not line up with the end of the headshell. It is PARALLEL with the end of the headshell, which is a check to make sure that it is seating square. I do not know the distance for the stylus to the end of the headshell for the Realistic turntables. You would use the Stevenson protractor, keep the cartridge square, use the inner point, rotate the platter and move the arm until the cartridge is parallel with the lines on the protractor, then move the cartridge forward or back until the stylus tip lines up with the null point.



Thank you so much for all that information , I really appreciate it .

That's a good idea sync.

You know, I looked over this entire thread and not once did you mention what cartridge you are using, where you got it, how old it is, whether it is a new or old stylus. This turntable may not be an award winner, but I assure you it is not junk. What you paid has no bearing on its quality. People here have scored TOTL vintage turntables for $30. It is possible that some of your records have inner groove damage, but it is also quite possible that the stylus is bad.

First tell us about the existing cartridge and stylus. That may be the whole problem.


I beg to differ. The first message I put down to create this thread tells what stylus I have on the unit. It's original Pioneer stylus. No numbers, no model number, nothing. The only thing that is seen is "PIONEER" and "Made in Japan" and "3MC" that's all.

According to http://akdatabase.org/Pioneer/Turntables.htm the PL-S40 turntable should have come with a PC-5MC moving coil cartridge, but I think that is an error. The table also says that the PL-S40 was introduced in 1985 and the PC-5MC cartridge wasn't introduced until 1988. The PC-3MC was introduced in 1985 so that seems to be the correct cartridge that came with the turntable. Your cartridge does have at least part of the model number.

http://akdatabase.org/Pioneer/Turntables.htm also indicates that this is one of the rare moving coil carts with a replaceable stylus, the PN-3MC, which seems to be available online (turntableneedles.com carries it).

Thanks a lot. I think I will go with the Audiotechnica all the same.

I beg to differ. The first message I put down to create this thread tells what stylus I have on the unit. It's original Pioneer stylus. No numbers, no model number, nothing. The only thing that is seen is "PIONEER" and "Made in Japan" and "3MC" that's all.
Sorry, missed that. Yes, I agree, you need a new cartridge or stylus.

I am after my friend's Pioneer PL-560 (not the 1980's black plastic PL-560) He's looking for a replacement turntable, as soon as he gets one, I will have his PL-560. It looks like a beautiful solid machine. Probably then I will invest in a good cartridge. I will still need alignment though.

I am also after this Sony STR-V25. The person who listed it is asking for $50. I offered $35 but I don't think he will budge. That, also, looks like a decent piece equipment.

I am after my friend's Pioneer PL-560 (not the 1980's black plastic PL-560) He's looking for a replacement turntable, as soon as he gets one, I will have his PL-560. It looks like a beautiful solid machine. Probably then I will invest in a good cartridge. I will still need alignment though.
It is a nice machine. When you get it post back. There is another diagram for the PL-560 alignment, and easier to line up, I think, because the headshell is straight, not bent as on the PL-2.

Cheers Howard

Okay, the three variables in determining geometry are mounting distance (pivot to spindle), effective arm length and offset angle. The MD is fixed. The manufacturer chooses the null points. They don't necessarily have to coincide with any known protractor, but the Japanese mfrs used points that were close to Stevenson. The choice of points dictates the arm length (221 in this case) and the offset angle, which they designed to be the same as the headshell angle. That's why they say to make the cartridge square with the headshell. Most of the time the cartridge ends up somewhere in the middle of the slots.

The two null points are basically the two solutions to the Side-Side-Angle triangle formula. If you change a Stevenson table to Baerwald or Loefgren, you are changing the third leg of the triangle, therefore the arm length and offset angle must change. The arm length will now be greater than 221mm. Most of time this will push the cartridge forward beyond the limitation of the slots. The cartridge will also have to be skewed out of square with the headshell. If you have slot room in the headshell, you can do it, but for most users it is just so much easier to use what the mfr had in mind.

You won't have enough room in these straight arm headshells. But on s-arms, by using a Technics headshell, which is longer and has slots farther forward than most other Japanese s-arm shells, you can do Baerwald or Loefgren if you want. And some users choose to.

Yes, thanks I understand all that. What I dont understand is why B&L works on some Japanese arms, and not others. I guess it's due to certain arms that end up with "odd" effective lengths, mounting distances, or offset angles (or combinations of which) and I suppose (like you inferred) many were adjusted for OE specific null points that do not conform to B/L/S (although perhaps "close" to Stevenson) I did notice in the 2 primary tonearm databases that they often list the null points for specific OE arms so perhaps the OP can find something close there (PL1250?) if you are not getting good results with a test record.

http://www.cartridgedb.com/default_arms.asp

http://www.vinylengine.com/tonearm-database.shtml

So for a great many of the Japanese decks it's "SET THE OVERHANG, ALIGN THE CARTRIDGE SQUARE AND GO!" Got it!

I guess your diagram is essentially advising the 58mm on the Pioneer arms in order to establish the correct overhang.
But I still dont understand where you are measuring from. (Perhaps if I seen the arm it would make more sense)

Thanks for help

To the OP another possibility (besides a bad cart) for the type of distortion that you describe is the tonearm leads getting "tight" near the end of the LP and moving enough that it rubs off the insulation somewhere inside the arm or in the pivot tower creating a circuit fault. I'm not at all familiar with the Pioneers but you may want to open it up and at least inspect and possibly "adjust" the routing of the tonearm wiring as it enters the tower, or just rewire it.

Good Luck
WopOnTour

Yes, thanks I understand all that. What I dont understand is why B&L works on some Japanese arms, and not others. I guess it's due to certain arms that end up with "odd" effective lengths, mounting distances, or offset angles (or combinations of which) and I suppose (like you inferred) many were adjusted for OE specific null points that do not conform to B/L/S (although perhaps "close" to Stevenson) I did notice in the 2 primary tonearm databases that they often list the null points for specific OE arms so perhaps the OP can find something close there (PL1250?) if you are not getting good results with a test record.

http://www.cartridgedb.com/default_arms.asp

http://www.vinylengine.com/tonearm-database.shtml

So for a great many of the Japanese decks it's "SET THE OVERHANG, ALIGN THE CARTRIDGE SQUARE AND GO!" Got it!

I guess your diagram is essentially advising the 58mm on the Pioneer arms in order to establish the correct overhang.
But I still dont understand where you are measuring from. (Perhaps if I seen the arm it would make more sense)

Thanks for help

To the OP another possibility (besides a bad cart) for the type of distortion that you describe is the tonearm leads getting "tight" near the end of the LP and moving enough that it rubs off the insulation somewhere inside the arm or in the pivot tower creating a circuit fault. I'm not at all familiar with the Pioneers but you may want to open it up and at least inspect and possibly "adjust" the routing of the tonearm wiring as it enters the tower, or just rewire it.

Good Luck
WopOnTour
I really think the OP's problem is trying to use a cartridge with a 25 year old stylus. Had I read that more carefully in his first post, I think we could have cut to the chase. Once he has a new cartridge, I'm sure the 56mm diagram will work just fine. You'd have to see the tt to understand, but it's measured to the end of the headshell. There's a clear delineation between the end of the headshell and the rest of the arm.

B&L will work on just about any arm as long as you can choose the mounting distance and/or offset angle and/or have some slot room to play with the arm length. Once any or all of them are fixed, that limits the geometry--that's why they won't work on certain arms.

I also have a Realistic LAB36 Turntable I completely forgot about with Shure R47TX cartridge on it. There seems to be much less IGD on the Realistic compared to the Pioneer. Tonight, I will try to install the SHURE on the Pioneer and see how that goes.

Cheers;
Des

Hey;

I have a Pioneer PL-S40 turntable (I know not the best out there) with the original Pioneer stylus. I am having inner groove distortion problems. It happens with every LP I play on either side when the last song on each side plays. From what I read on Google, it is caused by either damaged record, poor tonearm alignment or a bad stylus. All of the LP's I tried were used, however, I have about 15 factory sealed, brand new LP's. I am planning on sacrificing one and see if the same problem occurs. Meanwhile, I am looking for a decent stylus which will eliminate or at least minimize the problem. I am leaning towards Rega Bias 2

http://cgi.ebay.com/Rega-Bias-2-Moving-Magnet-Phono-Cartridge-NEW-IN-BOX_W0QQitemZ190257742748QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item1 90257742748&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C 240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

Any ideas on the inner groove distortion problem and suggestions on quality stylus is welcomed.

Cheers;
Des



other possible problems: tracking force is off; anti-skating is off; vertical tracking angle is off. all of these as well as those you provided above are critical to accurate playback. when things are just right, inner groove distortion should be negligible at the most.

Hi again everybody and many thanks for your input and time. I replaced the PIONEER 3MC cartridge with the SHURE R47TX I took off from my Realiestic Lab 36. The difference is PHENOMENAL, even without alignment. I am not getting any inner groove distortion on any records I have. I get very little (totally negligible considering the condition of the LP is 6/10) IGD in Screaming For A Love-Bite by Accept which was unbearable with the 3MC. I can't wait to get a real good cartridge. That sort of answers my question. The problem was the cartridge... so far anyway. Relief.

Cheers;
Des

If you want to minimize inner-groove distortion, I would highly recommend the Audio Technica AT440MLa. One of it's characteristics is that it's supposed to greatly reduce inner-groove distortion. I'm using it right now and, for the most part, that's what it does. I'm not saying you won't ever notice it, but it will be greatly reduced.

You can find it for about 90-100 bucks new including shipping if you look around.

EDIT: I'm sure there are other carts out there that will achieve a similar effect, but this is the one I'm most familiar with, as I just got one on Tuesday.

funny you should mention that. i just started noticing a lot of inner-groove distortion with my AT440MLA. it seems to be very sensitive to alignment. i tried moving the cartridge more toward the front of the headshell and i guess i didn't have it as straight as before, and it made the end of Stairway to Heaven practically unlistenable. i'm going to straighten it out and move it back to where it was to see if that makes it better. i also don't know how old my AT is, so maybe i should just buy a new one and keep this as a backup.

funny you should mention that. i just started noticing a lot of inner-groove distortion with my AT440MLA. it seems to be very sensitive to alignment. i tried moving the cartridge more toward the front of the headshell and i guess i didn't have it as straight as before, and it made the end of Stairway to Heaven practically unlistenable. i'm going to straighten it out and move it back to where it was to see if that makes it better. i also don't know how old my AT is, so maybe i should just buy a new one and keep this as a backup.
When you hear inner-groove distortion it just sounds really scratchy, almost like when you push small speakers too hard and the sound starts to get all distorted, right? Because, if that's the case, I can honestly say I only hear it on a couple odd records here and there. When I have a nice, clean copy of something I can't hear much, if any, IGD.

But yeah, I would totally agree about the MLa being highly sensitive to alignment issues. The stylus is really tiny and there's a lot of room for error. I kinda want to move my stylus up in the headshell just a hair, but I don't want to risk screwing something else up because, as of right now, everything seems to be working well.

most of these are old, dirty, somewhat beatup records. i'd describe the distortion as an extra crackling that occurs toward the end of rising melodic passages, and really with higher pitched stuff in general. and when i say high, i mean as low as the higher end of the male vocal range, like Plant during the Stairway solo. it's pretty consistent between the records, i'd say. is that what you meant by pushing small speakers?