Do those who use McIntosh amps prefer the stock cord over ``High End`` power cords? What about other pieces of Mac gear? I have 3 dedicated 20 amp circuits with WattGate AC receptacles and use Running Springs Audio Danielle and Duke line conditioners. Sources are plugged into the Danielle and preamps to Duke with their stock cords. Mac amps plugged into the AC with stock AC cords and they sound better to me this way instead of aftermarket cords.

happy listening

MC402, MC7106, C39, C42, MCD301, MVP861, Marantz SA11, Marantz DVD 9600, Marantz ST 17, Polk Audio XM tuner, Rega P25, LSA 2`s, Cardas Golden Reference and Kimber Select.

Mac amps plugged into the AC with stock AC cords and they sound better to me this way instead of aftermarket cords.

happy listening

MC402, MC7106, C39, C42, MCD301, MVP861, Marantz SA11, Marantz DVD 9600, Marantz ST 17, Polk Audio XM tuner, Rega P25, LSA 2`s, Cardas Golden Reference and Kimber Select.

That is because the stock cords is all you need for your Mc gear to sound their best.

There is definitely an audible difference between Mc stock cords and aftermarket cords. I wouldn't use a stock cord unless I was broke. :smoke:

Stock power cords always stay sealed in the package in the box here. :yes:

Another vote for aftermarket powercords. plugged straight into the wall 20 amp dedicated lines (no PLC at this time) i found a noticeable improvement/change in the sound when using several aftermarket cords and opted for Guerrilla Audio The Juice cords. These cords when c/w stock give me a "blacker" background removing some low level grunge i didnt know was there. subtle sonic cues are now more readily apparent WITHOUT changing the sonic signature of my equipment.

Regarding RSA power conditioners, i assume you were not happy with the sound of your 402 plugged into either Danielle or Duke since you are running them straight into the wall dedicated 20amp line?? i have read several times owners praising RSA products for their lack of restriction of their amplifiers. this seems to be a major crutch of many PLCs, restricting dynamics, necessitating plugging directly into wall negating protection from harmful spikes/surges and losing benefit of voltage stabilization.

i am very curious of your findings as i too own a 402 and was leaning heavily towards a RSA PLC, possibly Dmitri.



Jason

Stock power cords always stay sealed in the package in the box here. :yes:

Wow, that's NOT the response I expected from you !

:lurk:This should be good!.......the great power cord debate.

Having tried both stock cords and aftermarket cords. All of my stock cords are back in the box.

Synergistic Research and Shunyata power cords are in my system to stay:music:

When I switched the Mc501 power cords for the Wireworld the difference was very, very noticeable. I expected something subtle but it was as if I had upgraded a main component. They were sent to me to try and they never went back.

Stock power cords stay in the box here too :)

I have tried different power cords and am using very expensive Transparent Power Cords and am very happy with them.

This will cause a great debate, but some can and will hear a difference due to many reasons ie: interference etc, but I do/did not hear a difference in the sound, but did see a difference in decibels using stock versus aftermarket. This only re-inforces the idea that power hungry AMP's need the flow between the wall and the amp to be OPENED max when you need it and not constrained.

But there are those who do hear a difference in sound besides power and that can be like I said due to many things....

Bottom line, I play it safe with good power cords :)

F1 Fan,

With the Running Springs Audio products that you are using the differences are probably very subtle as their products are some of the best out there. I bet that if you did just an A/B test with the power cords alone you would notice a difference. For me it was fairly dramatic. The additional shielding helped remove hum and other "noise." Probably a lot like using your system with and without your RSA stuff.

to all who have replied, I have used the Cardas Golden Reference and Kimber PK 10 Gold pc`s with much success. also have some diy cords with Wattgate ends that are very nice sounding.

Most of last week-weekend was spent listening w/ and w/o the aftermarket cords vs the stock. sounded to me the stock pc`s were more ``natural`` sounding as opposed to normal ``hi fi`` sound one might get when swapping cords. I guess I have the best of both worlds and when a change is needed all one does is go for the Cardas ,DIY, Kimber or Stock.

I really like the RSA Danielle and Duke but have never plugged the big MC 402 into the Duke. Was told the 402 would perform better into ac receptacle.

Again, more thoughts...

Dave:smoke::music:

great topic!! I also am searching for sound improvement. I would like to hear from all of you which power cords you would recommend for my mc602? I don't want to hijack the thread but I think this is on topic. $500 is about my budget for one so those of you trying to spread the LUFLU please be kind:D

Do those who use McIntosh amps prefer the stock cord over ``High End`` power cords? What about other pieces of Mac gear? I have 3 dedicated 20 amp circuits with WattGate AC receptacles and use Running Springs Audio Danielle and Duke line conditioners. Sources are plugged into the Danielle and preamps to Duke with their stock cords. Mac amps plugged into the AC with stock AC cords and they sound better to me this way instead of aftermarket cords.happy listeningThis general question comes up all the time. Unfortunately, a general answer won't do, so maybe the following guidelines will help you sort out what to use where. However, even before guidelines, a little legal background is in order because it's starting to reach Catch 22 status: Shielded power cords are becoming mandatory for any equipment with digital circuits. Not just the obvious stuff, but like tube preamps with digital read-outs. This is to meet FCC regulations strictly limiting the re-broadcast of digital hash (as RFI). You can tell if your OEM cord is shielded because it its stamped right into the rubber jacket. Now the Catch 22: In order to obtain UL approval for the equipment itself, any manufacturer-supplied shielded power cord, captive or removable, must have its shield, or shields, connected to the ground pin(s) of the AC plugs at BOTH ends of the cord. This is a DISASTER! It creates ground loops and allows hum pickup from other sources or from the ground leak current of the component itself. These OEM cords are generally quite good quality; but if you want to use them, then you have to "fix" them. This is easier than you think, and far less expensive than buying a fancy aftermarket (non-UL approved) cord (with a detached-at-one-end "floating" shield.) All you have to do is cut off the IEC connector at the component end, and install a new one (like a good Furutech or Oyaide) but connecting ONLY the green ground wire and NOT THE SHIELD to the IEC's ground pin) DONE! you have a fairly high grade power cable with a (proper) floating shield. OK, enough with the backstory already :yes: :smoke: Some guidelines I've developed and why; please feel free to challenge, disagree, question, curse, etc.

1. According to the brilliant (IMO) Jim Aud at Purist Audio Design, the most important quality in a good power cord is ENERGY TRANSFER between the resevoir of AC in the wall and the component.

2. The biggest factor affecting energy transfer is conductor size. NOT the conductors' size in the wall! Those can be smaller than the conductors in the power cord, because they represent a pool of AC potential, not a path of AC current!. The power cord's job however is to transfer energy BACK AND FORTH between the wall and the component.

3. Two audio components always require the biggest conductors in their PC's. One is obvious. Amplifiers. They have the most energy to transfer back and forth to the wall. The second, generally accepted now, is still a surprise to me. And that's any component that does any kind of digital decoding/computing (DAC, CDP, DVP, etc. and computers!) Most agree that big gauge PC's work best for these digital converter devices, but so far no one can explain why :scratch2: Amplifiers can usually have shieldless PC's under most conditions. Digital stuff MUST have a PC with a floating shield (i.e. connected to ground at the wall receptacle end.) Minimum individual conductor size for either should be 10 A.W.G. (American Wire Gauge.) I know this recommendation for digital decoding stuff sounds crazy since they use so little power. What can I say? It's a mystery which will be revealed one day :yes:

4. Most other equipment can use smaller gauge PC's. Starting with 16 AWG (the smallest -- one step up from lamp cord) up to 14 AWG for big processors. Everything else being equal, choose larger for tube stuff (like tube preamps or tuners) because of the added current requirements. To be safe, I recommend using floating shields for everything regardless (it's like chicken soup, it cant hurt!) -- the one exception being if you are running your (front end/source) equipment with balanced power; in which case all noise is self-cancelling. But don't forget, you'll still need shields on digital-to-analog stuff, no matter what.

Separate but related:

1. If you have DC's (dedicated circuits) you really shouldn't need anything more. If there's still noise in your DC lines, then you'd better have a talk with your utility company. Probably your voltage is varying a bit too much also, which is especially bad for tube amps.

2. In any case, power conditioners, no matter their high capacity, well crafted and heavy chassis, are a redundancy, and will most certainly cancel the advantages of having your amp plugged right into a DC at the wall! (Opinionated enough?) Some people use massive isolation transformers, and IMO, that's a much better idea than a "conditioner" because it offers real protection from lightening, eliminates common mode noise, and smooths out the AC if it's not an accurate sine wave.

3. If some kind of AC power improvement device is needed (in lieu of DC's for instance) I recommend a power regenerator, NOT a power conditioner. Something like the new PS Audio Power Plant Premier, or the even better Exactpower EP-15A. These devices offer good protection, WILL NOT CHOKE amplifier dynamics, hold the voltage constant (which conditioners cannot do) and eliminate noise by replacing the noisy parts of the AC, not by filtering it.

4. For critical analog components (amps and preamps primarily) using a PC which provides good isolation from outside mechanical vibration is important I've found. Purist Audio excells in this category but there are others that I hear are also excellent. I just haven't tried them in my own system.

.

great topic!! I also am searching for sound improvement. I would like to hear from all of you which power cords you would recommend for my mc602? I don't want to hijack the thread but I think this is on topic. $500 is about my budget for one so those of you trying to spread the LUFLU please be kind:D

Shunyata Diamondback works well on the MC602.

nsgarch, nice explanation. Such makes this forum worthwhile.

Just guessing, but I bet the engineers at McIntosh know all about energy transfer and conductor size.

nsgarch, nice explanation. Such makes this forum worthwhile. Just guessing, but I bet the engineers at McIntosh know all about energy transfer and conductor size.I'm sure they do, but all audio manufacturers are still stuck with the UL requirments for PC's if they want consumer liabillity insurance :yes: I have noticed a very few manufacturers now offering their equipment without an OEM PC. I can't imagine it saves the customer that much though.
Neil

nsgarch, nice explanation. Such makes this forum worthwhile.

Just guessing, but I bet the engineers at McIntosh know all about energy transfer and conductor size.

I wonder if Ron-C would like to chime in on this discussion? I would love to hear what Mcintosh has to say about this:scratch2:

Good job Neil :thmbsp:-- and it will be available for the next time someone asks about PC's.

I wonder if Ron-C would like to chime in on this discussion? I would love to hear what Mcintosh has to say about this:scratch2:

I doubt that ron-c's input would be of value. After all, he says that plain solid copper wire is good enough for speaker wire.

I doubt that ron-c's input would be of value. After all, he says that plain solid copper wire is good enough for speaker wire.Did Ron say that!? I thought that notion (or something like it) was Roger Russell's mantra :D

Did Ron say that!? I thought that notion (or something like it) was Roger Russell's mantra :D

And Gordon Gow's and Frank McIntosh's, for that matter. :)

That is because the stock cords is all you need for your Mc gear to sound their best.

I run Parasound 12 guage power cords ($29 per 6' cord) on my 501s (vs the factory 14 guage cord) as I'm pulling from a dedicated 20A line... 12 guage in the walls.

I think Macs power supply design mitigates any benefits gained by the slightly lesser resistance, also not sure about the internal wiring guage in the 501's but it looks to be at least 14 guage???

1. According to the brilliant (IMO) Jim Aud at Purist Audio Design, the most important quality in a good power cord is ENERGY TRANSFER between the resevoir of AC in the wall and the component.

2. The biggest factor affecting energy transfer is conductor size. NOT the conductors' size in the wall! Those can be smaller than the conductors in the power cord, because they represent a pool of AC potential, not a path of AC current!. The power cord's job however is to transfer energy BACK AND FORTH between the wall and the component.
.

There's a reservoir of AC in my wall??? A pool of potential not a path of current??? IMO an adjective MUCH different than brilliant comes to mind.

There's a reservoir of AC in my wall??? A pool of potential not a path of current??? IMO an adjective MUCH different than brilliant comes to mind.I admit to using technically inaccurate terms but with which I felt most here could relate. I think it comes close enough to the "truth" for this discussion, don't you?

.

The Guerrilla Audio shielded power cords terminated with wattgates made a huge difference in my system. Blacker blacks and increased micro-dynamics allowing me to hear much deeper into the soundstage. Too bad the company seems to be out of business now, should have bought more of them.

Wireworld, the last cables I will ever buy.

When I switched the Mc501 power cords for the Wireworld the difference was very, very noticeable. I expected something subtle but it was as if I had upgraded a main component. They were sent to me to try and they never went back.

This was my exact experience, too. The WireWorld power cables are definately special. I was one of the world's biggest skeptics when it came to the last six feet of power cable between the wall receptacle and the amp. But just like you, I refused to return my test pair that are now permenantly feeding my MC501's.

I thought I would hear no improvement.....actually, I wanted to hear no improvement so that my skepticism would be justified. No way. Immediately the bottom end tightened up, the details in trailing vibrations on acoustic bass became so real I felt I was hearing the wood in the bass plus the string. There wasn't more bass, just cleaner, deeper, more articulate bass. Don't ask me how the improvement happens, but it happens, and it is worth it.

I am waiting for Ron-C's opinion on this debate...

:screwy:

My dedicated line to my amp and pre amp is less than 6 feet from my fuse box. I have a Panamax line conditioner plugged into the line and my equipment plugged into my Panamax. I have no hum, no background noise since I changed my phono tubes. I guess I am not sure what if any improvement I would expect given the short run I have from my fuse box. My speaker wires are also very short about 6 feet each. I figured the short the wire the lower the resistance.

This was my exact experience, too. The WireWorld power cables are definately special. I was one of the world's biggest skeptics when it came to the last six feet of power cable between the wall receptacle and the amp. But just like you, I refused to return my test pair that are now permenantly feeding my MC501's.

I thought I would hear no improvement.....actually, I wanted to hear no improvement so that my skepticism would be justified. No way. Immediately the bottom end tightened up, the details in trailing vibrations on acoustic bass became so real I felt I was hearing the wood in the bass plus the string. There wasn't more bass, just cleaner, deeper, more articulate bass. Don't ask me how the improvement happens, but it happens, and it is worth it.

So which model are you using ?

This was my exact experience, too. The WireWorld power cables are definately special. I was one of the world's biggest skeptics when it came to the last six feet of power cable between the wall receptacle and the amp. But just like you, I refused to return my test pair that are now permenantly feeding my MC501's.

I thought I would hear no improvement.....actually, I wanted to hear no improvement so that my skepticism would be justified. No way. Immediately the bottom end tightened up, the details in trailing vibrations on acoustic bass became so real I felt I was hearing the wood in the bass plus the string. There wasn't more bass, just cleaner, deeper, more articulate bass. Don't ask me how the improvement happens, but it happens, and it is worth it.


That being said, I was quite skeptical as well when I began experimenting with power cords. Do you know how many I have tried? I'm not even sure anymore.

I was so hoping I wouldn't hear any improvement, but my son Richard & I both looked at each other and said; do you hear what I hear? We paused the music & simultaneously discussed the tighter more natural bass, the lower noise floor; creating yet improved presence & clarity. We listened some more, we switched back to the stock cord. The improvements were undeniable & that is how I became a "True Believer" that power cords, even just 6 feet can impact the music so favorably.

The only real problem was realizing how many I would need. I upgraded every stock cord, Sources, Amps, everything...

I am waiting for Ron-C's opinion on this debate...

:boring:

I admit to using technically inaccurate terms but with which I felt most here could relate. I think it comes close enough to the "truth" for this discussion, don't you?

.No. There is not a reservoir of AC in the wall, and the conductors (in the cord, in the wall, in your drop, all the way back to the power plant) are a path of AC current. What else could they be?

Maybe people can relate to those terms, but that doesn't mean they're right. Don't the wires in the wall have to transfer the same energy from somewhere further up the line to the beginning of the cord? Where's the reservoir? None of that makes any sense at all. :saywhat:

I'm with High_Current on this one. :thumbsdn:

speedracer.........I have two WireWorls Silver Electra 5.2 power cables in six foot lengths, one for each MC501. Trust me when I say, at the price for these cables, had I not heard an improvement that was substantial enough to justify the cost, they would have been returned to the dealer. I was under no obligation to keep these power cables. I tested them over a three day period before making the final decision to keep them. Every time I plugged the stock cables back into the amps I lost a certain solidity and definition to the bottom octave. Each time I plugged the WireWorld Silver Electra power cables back into the 501's, the bottom end definition and solidity returned. It is audible, and pleasing.

Don't misconstrue my words to mean I think the stock power cable that McIntosh provides with their amps is a bad cable, it is not. I listened to my MC501 amps for over 100 hours before I received the WireWorld cables to audition. There was nothing about the stock power cables that encouraged me to replace them. But, when compared with the Silver Eclipse power cables, I heard an improvement in the low definition that convinced me the WireWorld power cables were worth the investment. Had I never experienced them, I would not have missed them. I am a sceptic, but hearing is believing.

I guess my question is, must one go to that extreme to get huge results/benefits ?

I guess my question is, must one go to that extreme to get huge results/benefits ?

No, of course not. Each one of us are individuals, and as such, we are as much different as we are similar. Each of us make our choices, and live with the rewards or consequences. Often, finances govern how far we can immerse ourselves into a hobby, or a pleasure. There will always be those who can, and want to carry their interests to the extreme. I look at individuals like this as pioneers. They often shed light into areas I never knew existed. I may not want to go there, or may not be able to afford to go there, but it is fun to watch from a safe distance just the same. You never know when you might just learn something.

I guess my question is, must one go to that extreme to get huge results/benefits ?
In my opinion, not when it comes to power cords. The secret is in the shielding.... (think EMF and how an electric motor and a generator works. ;))

http://zebracables.com/zc12.html

In post #13, the gentleman says: "shielding bad" (?) Sorry PCH1, I don't know how those thing work, and yes jdandy, I try to apply all what I read to my system and it IS all very informative (although confusing sometimes), fun and frustating ! lol

I noticed a lower floor after upgrading to SignalCable digital reference cables.

speedracer.........I have two WireWorls Silver Eclipse power cables in six foot lengths, one for each MC501. Trust me when I say, at the price for these cables, had I not heard an improvement that was substantial enough to justify the cost, they would have been returned to the dealer. I was under no obligation to keep these power cables. I tested them over a three day period before making the final decision to keep them. Every time I plugged the stock cables back into the amps I lost a certain solidity and definition to the bottom octave. Each time I plugged the WireWorld Silver Eclipse power cables back into the 501's, the bottom end definition and solidity returned. It is audible, and pleasing.

Don't misconstrue my words to mean I think the stock power cable that McIntosh provides with their amps is a bad cable, it is not. I listened to my MC501 amps for over 100 hours before I received the WireWorld cables to audition. There was nothing about the stock power cables that encouraged me to replace them. But, when compared with the Silver Eclipse power cables, I heard an improvement in the low definition that convinced me the WireWorld power cables were worth the investment. Had I never experienced them, I would not have missed them. I am a sceptic, but hearing is believing.

If I am using a subwoofer will I notice a difference still in the low end with the power cord change ? Every time this topic of power cords, speaker wires and interconnects come up I see more believers than non-believers making posts so either there is some truth to it or the non-believers do not want to waste there time debating . It is hard to believe that things could sound any better without changing my speakers, cd player, amp. or pre amp. On the other hand different tubes really improved the background noise on my c220. If I were to try this out, do you replace every power cord, just the amp. power cord etc. ? What do these power cords run in price a piece ? Someone else posted earlier said, the Mcintosh power cords are shielded but the end connector should be replaced ? Very confusing. Maybe at the Mcintosh play day we can demo some power cords and interconnects at audio classics ?? What do you say Ryan ?

No. There is not a reservoir of AC in the wall, and the conductors (in the cord, in the wall, in your drop, all the way back to the power plant) are a path of AC current. What else could they be? Maybe people can relate to those terms, but that doesn't mean they're right. Don't the wires in the wall have to transfer the same energy from somewhere further up the line to the beginning of the cord? Where's the reservoir? None of that makes any sense at all. :saywhat: I'm with High_Current on this one. :thumbsdn:Okay, but do you guys agree with the point I was making, or not? (If you don't like my presentation I'm alright with that; maybe you can do better.:yes:)

If I am using a subwoofer will I notice a difference still in the low end with the power cord change ?

Yes.

If I were to try this out, do you replace every power cord, just the amp. power cord etc. ?

Just start with doing the Amp power cords.

2uberoller......I apologize for my error. The WireWorld power cables I am using are the 2 meter Silver Electra 5.2 Power Cables. I have corrected my post above.

I am waiting for Ron-C's opinion on this debate...

That would be like asking Senator Mcain for his opinion on Governator Palin :D (ok since I am not a US citizen, I am asking Victor not to treat this as a political statement! :ntwrthy:)

Not that Ron's opinion on this is worthless, just that there is a slight conflict of interest since he can not really say stock cords are not good can he? :no:

howie

2uberoller......The WireWorld power cables I am using are the 2 meter Silver Electra 5.2 Power Cables.

I remember reading and hearing that power cords should be at least 3m in length to be the most effective. I never understood why this would be. Can anyone elaborate?

Here's my question (besides being amazed that the subject of power cords can generate such enthusiasm from any group -- I include myself here):

I have an older Furman Isolation Transformer with which I am pleased. It has a stock 20 amp cable and adapter that fits into the wall plug. You can guess what I am going to ask. Would all of you suggest that I replace both the stock cable and adaptor to the Furman unit and then the power cable from the Furman unit to the McIntosh amplifier? If not why not?

Like some of you who have made the switch, I am a little skeptical but receptive to learning (buying) more. Thanks for everyone’s thoughts and time.

More music to all.

Here's my question (besides being amazed that the subject of power cords can generate such enthusiasm from any group -- I include myself here):

I have an older Furman Isolation Transformer with which I am pleased. It has a stock 20 amp cable and adapter that fits into the wall plug. You can guess what I am going to ask. Would all of you suggest that I replace both the stock cable and adaptor to the Furman unit and then the power cable from the Furman unit to the McIntosh amplifier? If not why not?

Like some of you who have made the switch, I am a little skeptical but receptive to learning (buying) more. Thanks for everyone’s thoughts and time.

More music to all.


You only need to replace the power cord feeding amp(s)

I have countless RGPC units, they all use the stock cord. anything that plugs into it has the upgraded cord.

Don't ask why, it just works! :yes:

I remember reading and hearing that power cords should be at least 3m in length to be the most effective. I never understood why this would be. Can anyone elaborate?

That way the power cord manufacturer can sell you a longer, more expensive power cord.

I really shouldn't oughta do this, but I just can't resist:

Some pungent commentary on the power cord issue from the man everyone in high-end loves to hate, Peter Aczel :) (http://http://theaudiocritic.com/plog/index.php?op=ViewArticle&articleId=12&blogId=1)

I remember reading and hearing that power cords should be at least 3m in length to be the most effective. I never understood why this would be. Can anyone elaborate?

Howie, 2.0M is the magic length. I have tried 1,3,4,5 & 6M cables. The 2.0M is exactly how far the equipment can look back.

Longer lengths yield no further improvement.

I would like to hear from the poor folks, those who still use older Mac gear with non detachable power chords, how do you folks go about this power chord issue?

Vahe

A few FAQ's about power cords
http://www.shunyata.com/Content/FAQ-Tech.html

You only need to replace the power cord feeding amp(s)

I have countless RGPC units, they all use the stock cord. anything that plugs into it has the upgraded cord.

If I understand this correctly, your RGPC units plug directly into dedicated wall sockets using the stock power cords that come with the RGPC units..then your amps plug directly into the RGPC units using upgraded power cords..and source units use just the provided stock power cords.

Assuming I have this correct, any idea why stock between wall and RGPC works yet upgraded needed between RGPC and amp?

Howie, 2.0M is the magic length. I have tried 1,3,4,5 & 6M cables. The 2.0M is exactly how far the equipment can look back.

Longer lengths yield no further improvement.

Thanks Ivan. I could have sworn that 3 metres was the magic length but I guess I was mistaken :scratch2:

A few FAQ's about power cords
http://www.shunyata.com/Content/FAQ-Tech.html


Though the Venom is a "reasonably" priced cord, IMHO, Shunyata has been seen dancing with snakes...so proceed with caution and don't let the flowerly pseudo-engineering rhetoric fool you into thinking a $1000 power cord is going to perform a sonic exorcism of AC demons.

Personally, one of the biggest draws to McIntosh is their strict adherence to well-documented engineering principles...with a mimimum of fluffery that is typically exemplified by cable marketing charlatans.


http://contribute.chron.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/3/9/83106708-61b4-45ba-8960-baaac27e3add.Large.bmp

a worthy read for those with "cable-itis".... posted by Charles Hansen (Ayre) in AA's Critics Corner....

Bon Appetit


http://www.abcviolins.com/blindlistening.html

a worthy read for those with "cable-itis".... posted by Charles Hansen (Ayre) in AA's Critics Corner....

Bon Appetit


http://www.abcviolins.com/blindlistening.html

excellent article. Thanks for posting. Of course either camp will take from this what they want only to reinforce their preconceived notions on this subject. This part I like:

"Unfortunately no one has yet developed a method for learning to hear the violin in terms of its individual tonal components - prominent resonances, the balance between different frequency regions, and so on (at least in part because we don't yet understand how they all fit together). Until some such method is developed, it will remain difficult to talk about violin sound in an objective way."

But notice how the method states "learning to hear" rather than a test done by an electronic measuring device? so it will always be subjective. It will never be scientific, or related to engineering, because the principle of scientific experimentation states that the experiment must be repeatable with a consistent outcome.

Does anyone know of a power cable vendor or manufacturer that does not have a return/refund policy?

To those who are 'died in the wool' convinced that power cables are nonsense, why don't they simply purchase a cord, install it in their system and return it if not convinced?

Are they afraid that a difference of some sort may occur?

I have very good ways of measuring "if it can be heard", I can prove whether or not a difference is happening. It is a rather simple test, so much so that I wonder why others have not stumbled upon it. It does not conclude better or worse but it absolutely concludes if their is a "difference" at all.

I proposed the testing protocol to a company in the tweak business and they declined. It was to be conducted free of charge. I will test ANYONES tweak free of charge and post the findings. So far, not one...ONE manufacturer has taken me up on it and it is totally unbiased, so much so that no one, not even myself is allowed in the room while testing is underway.


I have tested cables and seen measured differences in spectra and amplitude, even when matched at a single frequency. Any test can be attended, so long as while the test is under way, no human can be in the testing/playback room. It is an acoustics test, the way we hear.

For the record, I lean toward, if the ears can hear it, at all, this test WILL measure it.

Not long ago, I was told that I could not possibly hear 0.4dB level increments. This was demonstrated to be incorrect, to a 100% degree. 0.2db could not be heard with any confidence what-so-ever but I can measure "into the thousandths" of a dB. This will conclude that if a 0.5dB change in the 'difference signal" is present, the tweak is clearly audible.

With all of that in mind, level changes also apply. More importantly, spectra changes and where they are is the damning evidence.

I find it funny that of all possible tests out there, this one leans heavy toward the tweakers side because the final conclusion ends up being the listeners threshold of dB change and where in the spectrum people are most sensitive. I match the 1kHz tone level before each tweak is measured.

Why and how a tweak "works" is important but more importantly is if their is any difference at all in the audio spectrum with music, not just test tones. So measurable yet so very misunderstood. This leads me to believe that people enjoy arguing about it rather than admitting that something actually works or not.

excellent article. Thanks for posting. Of course either camp will take from this what they want only to reinforce their preconceived notions on this subject. This part I like:

"Unfortunately no one has yet developed a method for learning to hear the violin in terms of its individual tonal components - prominent resonances, the balance between different frequency regions, and so on (at least in part because we don't yet understand how they all fit together). Until some such method is developed, it will remain difficult to talk about violin sound in an objective way."

But notice how the method states "learning to hear" rather than a test done by an electronic measuring device? so it will always be subjective. It will never be scientific, or related to engineering, because the principle of scientific experimentation includes states that the experiment must be repeatable with a consistent outcome.

Many many ways this test could be done. What could not be measured is how the instrument excavates extra inspiration to the musician and how it affects their playing skills. :)


Until we develop a machine that can play the violin perfectly each time, for measurement sakes, the musician themselves may be getting into it more, thus making the preferred instrument sound better, because they are PLAYING better.

You won't find a better write up on the advantages on power cords than this.

Part 1:
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71333&highlight=power

Part 2:
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71382&highlight=power

Part 3:
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71545&highlight=power

Part 4:
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72539&highlight=power

Here's what I did. I figured out what I could afford to spend to upgrade all my PC chords in my three systems all at once with the same product from a reputable company. Then I called three such companies with solid customer feedback and spoke directly with the owners. All were great guys. I simply then chose the company whose owner seemed the most laid back and knowledgeable (in this case Signal Cable).

Now I'm done forever. I know that the cables are better than stock, not nearly as good as other more pricey stuff out there, but commensurate with my budget and my relative level of gear.

Works for me! :thmbsp:

There's some science. :banana: this should be made a power cable sticky??

There's some science. :banana: this should be made a power cable sticky??

Doesn't the whole cable debate belong in another forum ?

Doesn't the whole cable debate belong in another forum ?

I asked how upgrading a power cable will affect my mc602. I was not looking for a cable debate about all equipment. I apologize if I brought this up in the wrong forum. Thanks For all the info from everyone your knowledge is much appreciated:thmbsp:

It is only natural for their to be a debate. Those who have not tried different cables will be there wagging the dog every time. Am I a believer myself? Sure. I believe ANYTHING that goes IN THE circuit of an audio system can affect the sound. This thread has opened my eyes to more research and we must trust our ears just as much as we trust the research and then actually PURCHASE and use something and see for ourselves. Like I say, I don't know of one company that sells power cables without a return/refund policy.

That is the key. Try them and see. If not, talking gets nothing accomplished at all.

The "dead horse" threads are not really dh threads imho. Look at the new links that have been brought up. As time goes by, more people will actually try, in their system a different power cable and if they want to return it and believe "no difference" good for them!

Doesn't the whole cable debate belong in another forum ?

:yes:

I asked how upgrading a power cable will affect my mc602. I was not looking for a cable debate about all equipment. I apologize if I brought this up in the wrong forum. Thanks For all the info from everyone your knowledge is much appreciated:thmbsp:

if you hadn't of posted this question, then Face (thanks!) would not have posted that those links, and I for one, would have never read it, so no apologies necessary! If the thread gets moved, fine, the information is still here.

Many many ways this test could be done. What could not be measured is how the instrument excavates extra inspiration to the musician and how it affects their playing skills. :)


Until we develop a machine that can play the violin perfectly each time, for measurement sakes, the musician themselves may be getting into it more, thus making the preferred instrument sound better, because they are PLAYING better.

yes, but a electrically powered component does not provide superior quality playback because it is "inspired" to do so by installation of a better power cord
:D

yes, but a electrically powered component does not provide superior quality playback because it is "inspired" to do so by installation of a better power cord
:D

The listener can be inspired to 'think' it is better and this was my point.
:D

Power cords need to be:

A. Bought or borrowed.
B. Tried in the listeners system
C. Evaluated
D. Kept or returned.

Until this 'goes down' what is gained?

The listener can be inspired to 'think' it is better and this was my point.
:D


Gotcha!!! :thmbsp: ...and I agree 100% with that assertion.

My original reply was based on my understanding(?) that McIntosh designs and builds its power supplies/regulation such as to mitigate any of the claimed improvements to be gained by installing a "better" than stock power cord.

I upgraded my power cords for all my McIntosh equipment, mainly for the better plugs on the ends, to go along with the better outlets I purchased when I put my dedicated line in. I bought one Cable from a former AK merchant/advitiser, and then built the others using info from the DYI forum.

Doesn't the whole cable debate belong in another forum ?
Yes, and once it gets there, it may as well drop off the face of the earth.

If I understand this correctly, your RGPC units plug directly into dedicated wall sockets using the stock power cords that come with the RGPC units..then your amps plug directly into the RGPC units using upgraded power cords..and source units use just the provided stock power cords.

Assuming I have this correct, any idea why stock between wall and RGPC works yet upgraded needed between RGPC and amp?


No, my sources & every other unit gets an upgraded power cord from the point at which they connect to AC.

For the same reason longer upgraded power cords provide to further benefit to the sound. I have done extensive experimentation regarding this.

Like it or not, we can all agree that IC's & power cords are in fact a component in each & every one of our systems. Our musical chain is only as strong as the weakest link.

For those that continue to doubt this, I offer the following:

1) Use the el-cheapo thin black, red & yellow RCA throw-aways; since cables don't matter.

2) Actually try an upgraded cord from a reputable manufacturer that allows in home free trials, with no obligation & decide for yourself once and for all.

3) Are you afraid you may actually improve your system??? :scratch2:

Ok, this is probably the 25th time we have covered this but here goes anyway. :D

It's not so much what a good quality, well shielded power cord does but what it "doesn't do". Assuming adequate gauge to begin with, a well shielded, proper conductor geometry cord will not do the following:

Current flowing through wire (especially level of current going to amps) creates EMF. EMF will in turn induce flowing current into nearby wires. Now imagine your IC's going from say a CD to a preamp or preamp to amp near a power cord that is not shielded and that extra induced current riding on top of the low level musical signal on the IC's. :smoke: Obviously that is not what we want and the reason why so often when we do try a well shielded power cord that protects from EMF and RFI, there is an audible difference. Blacker blacks, deeper bass, smoother highs, increased low level resolution, etc... :music:

If the above wasn't true, we wouldn't have an electric motor or a generator.

Many get hung up on the fact that it is the last 6 feet, adequate gauge is not going to choke my system, etc... Sometimes we just look in the wrong place for answers.

"Heavier than air flying machines are impossible"... Lord Kelvin. :D

For those that continue to doubt this, I offer the following:

1) Use the el-cheapo thin black, red & yellow RCA throw-aways; since cables don't matter.

2) Actually try an upgraded cord from a reputable manufacturer that allows in home free trials, with no obligation & decide for yourself once and for all.

3) Are you afraid you may actually improve your system??? :scratch2:

1) Cheapos are obviously just that. I think the real issue is where is the point where more money (and advertising hype) yield no real improvement in sound. If you spend mucho for ICs, you have to hear a difference, otherwise you'd have to admit you've been taken.

2) I thought McIntosh was a reputable manufacturer.

I believe this subject has run its course. Some people like upgraded power cords, some people don't. Try them for yourself and decide which group you are in. I will leave this thread here for now, it will be gone when the server upgrade is done. http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=189406

DONE