View Full Version : Recapping Tandberg TR1080


DeafbyKhorns
10-29-2008, 10:06 PM
Looking for some recommendations on recapping the Tandberg TR2080.
After reviewing the schematic it appears that Tandberg coupled the preamp stages with caps and are not direct coupled like todays amps. So, choosing the right cap will make a huge difference in the sound. I have used Nichicon PW caps with great results but never tried them in the signal path.
You opinions and experiences would be appreciated.

jdurbin1
10-30-2008, 01:43 AM
Are you talking about a TR 2080? There was no 1080...

I have to question the sanity of anyone that would blindly modify what is possibly one of the best-sounding receivers of all time... do you really think you as a relative amateur are going to make this design sound better than it did as delivered by some of the best engineers in the audio industry?

I know everyone likes to think "oh, we have better quality parts now" and "oh, they would have used these if they knew about them or if cost constraints didn't make it impractical" etc.

The reality is, those technologies were not unknown when the 2080 was designed, and at $1100-$1200 retail they had a HUGE cost budget. They also had training, resources, and experience that virtually no modern DIYer is likely to be able to match. They also had controlled high-quality production capabilities that resulted in reliable products, not something the average DIYer can lay claim to. When you modify, you raise the failure rate sure as shootin'.

To me, assuming you will make a product (that works as well as the 2080 does) work better simply by upgrading some of the components - without ANY modeling or circuit analysis - is insane and smacks hugely of hubris.

However, I understand that some audiophiles simply can't enjoy the equipment unless they tweak or modify it almost beyond recognition. For me, I'll take the unmolested original every time.

If you are simply replacing aged electrolytics that have lost capacity or dried out over time and are measurably impacting performance, that's one thing. To replace or "upgrade" every cap in the signal path in the blind assumption it will somehow sound better is not supported by logic or science. I'd love to see some double-blind listening comparisons between original versions of some world-class audio gear, and recapped versions.

Don't fix it if it ain't broke!

John

Looking for some recommendations on recapping the Tandberg TR1080.
After reviewing the schematic it appears that Tandberg coupled the preamp stages with caps and are not direct coupled like todays amps. So, choosing the right cap will make a huge difference in the sound. I have used Nichicon PW caps with great results but never tried them in the signal path.
You opinions and experiences would be appreciated.

guiller
10-30-2008, 06:53 AM
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
Hi John,

I endorse your philosophy!

Chazb11
10-30-2008, 07:47 AM
Personally I would use whatever brand cap that comes closest to duplicating ALL of the specs of the original caps. I've noticed that several of the more knowledgeable members here recommend Panasonic caps in this sort of application.

DeafbyKhorns
10-30-2008, 08:28 AM
If you are simply replacing aged electrolytics that have lost capacity or dried out over time and are measurably impacting performance, that's one thing. To replace or "upgrade" every cap in the signal path in the blind assumption it will somehow sound better is not supported by logic or science. I'd love to see some double-blind listening comparisons between original versions of some world-class audio gear, and recapped versions.

Don't fix it if it ain't broke!

John

jdurbin1- I am replacing only the marginal caps, this receiver is old and electrolytics do have a shelf life. I am not your typical amateur, I have and know how to use all the test equipment including an ESR meter. There are several known capacitors in this receiver that will fail and I have seen fail. The build quality of this receiver is the best I've seen in years which include several mil spec parts. However, I do know from experience that some of the power supply/regulation caps may be in question based on experience. Not sure about the electrolytics in the signal path as they have not been tested yet. I wouldn't expect these to be dry since they are not located near any heat sources or do any serious switching. If you were to send an old McIntosh to the factory for a repair or general checkup, the first thing they check are the caps and they will be replaced.

Jon_Logan
10-30-2008, 08:31 AM
I believe in "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". ....especially if it's one of those nice old Tandberg's. No TR 1080? Really? Now, I can't be sure, but I thought they had TR 1030, 1060, 1080 as well as the (awesome) 2080.

If someone want's to go through the trouble of re-capping a signal path: I'm not sure what "PW" is on the Panasonic cap, but if it is an electrolytic cap, it might not be a bad idea to bypass it with a plastic cap. 0.1uF or so. When I say "plastic", I mean mylar, polypropylene, polystyrene, TEFLON, etc. Watch out for the tuning potentiometer on Tandberg's. Tanberg and other European manufacturer's liked to use epoxy (kidding) in place of lubricant. One time a customer came in with a non working 3001 tuner. The "lubricant" had frozen and the customer broke the frame that holds the tuning pot. End of unit. made me cry.:pity:

DeafbyKhorns
10-30-2008, 07:18 PM
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it"
Would you wait until a timing belt broke on your car damaging valves, pistons and other drive components? I believe in preventive maintenance and that is simply what the topic is about. I'm not looking for exotic caps, simply a cap that will do the job which is close as possible to the stock cap. I probably shouldn't of used the word "recapped". Not interested in bypass caps, just a good low esr cap that will bring the unit back to original condition. I usually use the Nichicon low ESR, high temp caps for the power supply but have not repaired many solid state amps using them in the signal path.

xoaphexox
10-30-2008, 09:29 PM
For power supply caps I use Panasonic FC
For signal path caps I use Nichicon Muse (KZ) or Elna Silmic II (RFS) if its polarized, nonpolar or coupling I go with Nichicon Muse (ES) or Polypropylene.

Many top of the line modern musical gear use these capacitors.

Here is some info to get you started: http://www.nichicon-us.com/english/products/alm_mini/list_f.htm

You can get Elna Silmic II and Panasonic FC from Digikey, Nichicon Muse from Handmade Electronics or Michael Percy.

jdurbin1
10-30-2008, 10:16 PM
Hopefully my rant was taken as a philosophic outlook & not a personal attack...

The problem with the timing belt analogy is that the wear and service life of a part like that are considerably more predictable than the service life of a capacitor, not to mention the wear is visible. I'm still inclined to leave things along unless there's some audible or measurable symptom suggesting otherwise.

As for experience, the problem is that reading about this kind of recapping adventure as a fairly routine "upgrade" all too often encourages people - that aren't really qualified - to perform open heart surgery on an innocent piece of perfectly functional vintage electronics.

On the model question, Tandberg's 1000-series TR models were the 1000, 1010, 1020, 1020A, 1040A, 1040P, 1055. No 1060 or 1080. The 2000-series did have TR 2060 and 2080 models of course. Both are superb receivers and again my personal recommendation would be to enjoy them for what they are & only replace parts if necessary.

But, that's just my two cents...

John

niklasthedol
10-31-2008, 08:37 AM
Hopefully my rant was taken as a philosophic outlook & not a personal attack...

The problem with the timing belt analogy is that the wear and service life of a part like that are considerably more predictable than the service life of a capacitor, not to mention the wear is visible. I'm still inclined to leave things along unless there's some audible or measurable symptom suggesting otherwise.

As for experience, the problem is that reading about this kind of recapping adventure as a fairly routine "upgrade" all too often encourages people - that aren't really qualified - to perform open heart surgery on an innocent piece of perfectly functional vintage electronics.

On the model question, Tandberg's 1000-series TR models were the 1000, 1010, 1020, 1020A, 1040A, 1040P, 1055. No 1060 or 1080. The 2000-series did have TR 2060 and 2080 models of course. Both are superb receivers and again my personal recommendation would be to enjoy them for what they are & only replace parts if necessary.

But, that's just my two cents...

John

Din't you forget to mention the TR 2075 and the 2075 mkII.

2075 is a bit sweeter than the 2080.

"dolph"

Fast996
10-31-2008, 09:27 AM
To me, assuming you will make a product (that works as well as the 2080 does) work better simply by upgrading some of the components - without ANY modeling or circuit analysis - is insane and smacks hugely of hubris.

However, I understand that some audiophiles simply can't enjoy the equipment unless they tweak or modify it almost beyond recognition. For me, I'll take the unmolested original every time.

If you are simply replacing aged electrolytics that have lost capacity or dried out over time and are measurably impacting performance, that's one thing. To replace or "upgrade" every cap in the signal path in the blind assumption it will somehow sound better is not supported by logic or science. I'd love to see some double-blind listening comparisons between original versions of some world-class audio gear, and recapped versions.

Don't fix it if it ain't broke!

John

Some people.....Just don't like change.

Here's food for thought....I have found this info(link) and experience very helpful and very accurate. My recommendation....go for it....pop that cherry.:thmbsp:

Electrolytic test link

http://highend.puslapiai.lt/?tipstricks/6

Update....I recommend for the money Nichicon Muse Gold......but the absolute best electrolytic cap ever made is the Black Gate....

Jon_Logan
10-31-2008, 09:38 AM
Some people.....Just don't like change.

Here's food for thought....I have found this info(link) and experience very helpful and very accurate. My reccomendation....go for it....pop that cherry.:thmbsp:

Electrolytic test link

http://highend.puslapiai.lt/?tipstricks/6

"Very accurate" based on what? subjective dribble. "These sound dark", "these sound harsh". I see zero quality in these statements. Again, is anybody ready for double blind testing? Any kind of scientific approach? I'd replace caps if they're bad. I might replace caps because some are "cooler" looking, but I'd never make a statement about an improvement in sound quality unless I could demonstrate it over and over again.

Fast996
10-31-2008, 09:50 AM
"Very accurate" based on what? subjective dribble. "These sound dark", "these sound harsh". I see zero quality in these statements. Again, is anybody ready for double blind testing? Any kind of scientific approach? I'd replace caps if they're bad. I might replace caps because some are "cooler" looking, but I'd never make a statement about an improvement in sound quality unless I could demonstrate it over and over again.

Our opinions differ.....that's what makes a horse race....I have done plenty of changing caps in signal paths.....big difference....better...to my ear....without a doubt. Try it.....you might be pleasantly surprised.:yes:

Jon_Logan
10-31-2008, 09:58 AM
Our opinions differ.....that's what makes a horse race....I have done plenty of changing caps in signal paths.....big difference....better...to my ear....with out a doubt. Try it.....you might be pleasently surprised.:yes:

Been there done that. I used to be a "believer" in wire,etc. When I started backing up what I "heard" with a scientific approach, the differences went away. I was frustrated and disapointed that the differences weren't there and I tried to make the differences reappear.

Now, if you feel very confident you can prove that functioning cap "A" sounds vastly (or a little different) from cap "B", I don't see what the problem of an ABX or double blind test would be. I am ready to have my mind changed. I think a real test, not relying on sonic memory, would be in order. Is my logic flawed??

Fast996
10-31-2008, 10:16 AM
Been there done that. I used to be a "believer" in wire,etc. When I started backing up what I "heard" with a scientific approach, the differences went away. I was frustrated and disapointed that the differences weren't there and I tried to make the differences reappear.

Now, if you feel very confident you can prove that functioning cap "A" sounds vastly (or a little different) from cap "B", I don't see what the problem of an ABX or double blind test would be. I am ready to have my mind changed. I think a real test, not relying on sonic memory, would be in order. Is my logic flawed??

Jon....logic flawed?....not at all.....I will have a Accuphase C200 preamp done next week....in black gate "N" & "NX" series. I am going to AB that against my Nichicon fine gold muse version......your welcome to have a listen....take a trip to the biggest little city....and we will have a interesting blind test.

Jon_Logan
10-31-2008, 10:19 AM
....will you know which one you are listening to??? And if they're different, which one is more accurate?

Fast996
10-31-2008, 10:24 AM
....will you know which one you are listening to??? And if they're different, which one is more accurate?

Jon you tell me how I should set this up scientificly.....and I will report back...

Jon_Logan
10-31-2008, 10:30 AM
These are preamps, yes?

'Y' connect your source to the two preamps.
Measure the two outputs of your preamps and adjust the gains so that the levels are the same into 10k ohm loads. Use a 400 Hz tone from a tones CD for that. Connect each pair (L/R) of your preamp outputs to a switchbox, where the common goes to your power amp.
Have somebody else switch back and forth and see what you get.

P.S. don't let the switcher let you know which one you are listening to.

Fast996
10-31-2008, 10:39 AM
Jon....I can do that....I will report back...btw I will have a few other listeners so...it should be fun. Yes these are preamps.

xoaphexox
10-31-2008, 11:26 AM
I think as long as you are happy with the results that is all that matters.

After all, we are talking about capacitors here. The vast majority being less than or close to $1 each, so worst case scenario you can just keep replacing them until you find the ones you like most OR just put the originals back in assuming you keep them like I do.

It's only an investment of a couple of hours work, assuming you are handy with a soldering iron and don't make any mistakes. A lot of people that repair or restore electronics for a living try to talk people out of messing with their gear, but who am I to tell anyone they can't do what they want with their property. If you want to go off roading through a cornfield in your new Lexus, that's your prerogative. Just accept the risk that you may have to end up sending it to a body shop for repairs if things get out of hand...

Good luck to you, whichever route you decide to take.

I look forward to hearing your results!

P.S. I have heard of people recapping one channel of their stereo and doing a mono signal to A/B left vs. right.

[Edit] Just read your link... 9% silver and 0.1% gold solder?! I must be in a different audiosocioeconomic strata to play around with his colorful audio adjectives and $100 capacitors!

Jon_Logan
10-31-2008, 11:48 AM
Actually, I don't disagree. Where it becomes an issue for me is when people say "Do X and you'll get Y". These things are said with some sort of authority. I encourage anybody to do whatever they desire to their equipment. Knock yourself out. But I've seen shops promising better sound quality with cap changes etc. I'm saying, you'd better have some proof before you encourage others to take the risk. That's fair I think.

When I was learning about electronics, I bought a Hafler DH-500 kit. I assembled it and the thing was great. Then I started to become influenced by this search for audio nirvana. The folks at Marshfield/Moraga were modifying Haflers and said "Remove that low-pass filtering coil on the output of your amp channels. It'll really open things up". Well, stupid me followed those guy's (bastards) suggestion. It did open things up. ...it shot fire out of the tops of all of the T-O3 canned MOSFET's. Ruined my amp. The carcas is gone even if I could find output MOSFET's these days.

So have at it, but replacing anything does have risks. My ears and test gear and test methodology temper my rush to modify. If it can be improved, go for it. If the improvement can't be found, why bother (for me)?

xoaphexox
10-31-2008, 12:05 PM
Makes sense!

Did they ever offer an explanation for the advice that ruined your Hafler??

Fast996
10-31-2008, 12:07 PM
[Edit] Just read your link... 9% silver and 0.1% gold solder?! I must be in a different audiosocioeconomic strata to play around with his colorful audio adjectives and $100 capacitors!

$100 capacitors....hmmm you must be talking about the Sikorel PSU caps...although I have about 200.00 worth of Black Gates in my P300 amplifier. Does that make sense in a $500 amp....maybe no...but when the amp dusts my $6000.00 mono blocks....kind of a dumb question....just my opinion....

xoaphexox
10-31-2008, 12:41 PM
I was referencing the last price list I saw at Michael Percy audio in which there were some Black Gates that were up in that range.

$6,000 mono blocks that sound worse than a $500 amp, ouch. I guess it is all about marketing and supply/demand?

Jon_Logan
10-31-2008, 12:43 PM
Makes sense!

Did they ever offer an explanation for the advice that ruined your Hafler??

I never asked. I was all done with them. In hindsight, the things they were talking about were pure jibberish. I only realized that after I learned more. Expensive lesson. I'm sure if I complained, they would made some other excuse about why it happened. .... i.e "You mean you didn't have a VPI block on your amp?". They were ignorant so I assume their diagnosis would have been more of the same.
That's what worries me about this modification without measurement trend. There's kind of an attitude that the person designing the equipment "missed something" and now I'll correct it by changing something. Well, David Hafler knew that the output coil prevented RF from entering the NFP loop. Marshfield/Moraga did not. I trust David Haflers choice of caps. BTW Electrolytic caps only lose their capacitance. So if there's a sonic difference that could be proven, I'd chock it up to one value compared to another value. Low ESR for coupling caps? naw If your worried about HF/dialectric losses in a cap, use plastic or bypass the electrolytic with plastic. I'll keep mine stock until their functionality changes.

Fast996
10-31-2008, 01:23 PM
I was referencing the last price list I saw at Michael Percy audio in which there were some Black Gates that were up in that range.

$6,000 mono blocks that sound worse than a $500 amp, ouch. I guess it is all about marketing and supply/demand?

Now that's comparing the black gate version amp to the mono blocks. Both amplifiers have great qualities....but the blocks are voiced with BHP Aerovox which tend to sound sterile and the highs are soft...not crisp and clear. But the BG Accuphase is.....so much more refined....I now use those blocks to run my subwoofer and don't have any inclination to go back. The mono blocks put out about 200 watts class A....actualy I could weld with them....so there is a reason for the price. Now if I can find caps that are specced correctly I might go ahead and change the Areovox out....but I see really no point as I do not intend to use these as my main amplifier.

jdurbin1
10-31-2008, 04:31 PM
To me the 2080 and 2075 MkII are essentially interchangeable other than the cosmetics. The 2075 does sound a bit different, and although the later MkII and 2080 models best the 2075 for output power, distortion, other specs (on paper at least), it has a very approachable quality of sound that I have enjoyed on the few occasions I had one around the house before reselling it.

I just didn't mention them because the previous thread was focused on models ending in "60" or "80" :-)

John

Din't you forget to mention the TR 2075 and the 2075 mkII.

2075 is a bit sweeter than the 2080.

"dolph"

DeafbyKhorns
10-31-2008, 09:22 PM
jdurbin1- I felt the 2080 sounded a bit colored which may be due to the capacitor coupling stages. The low end was on the weak side but then again, I'm using reference speakers which are revealing. I may try connecting it to my Khorns this weekend if I can find some 3w festoon lamps at an automotive store.

jdurbin1
11-03-2008, 02:24 AM
Does "reference speakers which are revealing" equate to "marginal bass response"?

Just kidding, but I'm listening to my 2080 as we speak, driving a pair of ADS L710 and the bass is far from anemic. Have used it in the past with JBL L96 and L112 as well and similarly no complaints about bass. Also at work with a pair of ADS L400 supplemented by a powered sub, but that's due to the smaller drivers in the L400's and also because the powered sub makes the system easier to tune in an office environment where I can't really crank up the front pair.

John

niklasthedol
11-03-2008, 06:06 AM
I would recommend to compare the Tandberg TR 2075 / 2080 to the Sugden A28 class A amp.

This will make you all hear what the Tandberg TR series lacks in sound performing.

I had both Tandbergs TR 2080/2075 AND the Sugden A28 + Sugden A48.
I moved on many years ago to other amps, though.

I also still have Tandberg gear but only the TCD 910 and the TPT 3001A which I will have trouble finding better replacements for no matter what brand.

"dolph"

jdurbin1
11-03-2008, 04:59 PM
Yikes! I looked at an A48 just now...I've seen some ugly amps before, but that's really homely. It would have to sound great to get away with looking so bad :-)

Also, maybe it's me - lol- but it doesn't appear to have a tuner. Say what you will about the 2075/2080 as amplifiers & preamplifiers - though I think they're very competent in both areas - but they are superb tuners as well. If you want to compare components, you have to move to the 3000-series which I think will hold up very nicely against many others, at least some of the models do.

Also looks like Tandbergs from that period hold up a lot better and are certainly more readily available today despite the company itself having exited the audio business.

At any rate, I'd certainly subscribe to trying other brands & models as a favorable alternative to making a 2080 into something other than what it was designed to be. Maybe that's just my background from repair showing through, where you learn to appreciate how much work can go into returning a component to original working condition. Makes the prospect of modifying one that's working correctly just to make it "better" really appalling.

Then again, look at cars as an analogy. I upgraded the audio system substantially in my car because it fell well short of what I'm used to. and I had the professional background to do the upgrade myself without trashing the car in the process. Everything else on the car, including the factory alloy wheels, worked well so it's still stock. Other people would buy this car and replace the brand new wheels & tires with different ones and stick carbon fiber trim all over the inside, just to conform to the need they have to personalize it. Everyone has their own outlook on "upgrades, I reckon...

John

DeafbyKhorns
11-07-2008, 07:47 PM
Does "reference speakers which are revealing" equate to "marginal bass response"?

Just kidding, but I'm listening to my 2080 as we speak, driving a pair of ADS L710 and the bass is far from anemic. Have used it in the past with JBL L96 and L112 as well and similarly no complaints about bass. Also at work with a pair of ADS L400 supplemented by a powered sub, but that's due to the smaller drivers in the L400's and also because the powered sub makes the system easier to tune in an office environment where I can't really crank up the front pair.

John

John, you could say marginal bass response but hey Ive been spoiled with some high end gear in the past. I probably shouldn't compare this receiver to a $6500 Mark Levinson amp. The speakers have the Scan-Speak D2905/9900 Revelator tweeters which will bring out the worst in electronics, including marginal recordings. I really need to find some classic 70/80's speakers that would mate with this receiver. A pair of JBL's or ALtecs would be sweet with this setup! After 25 yrs in audio, this is probably the most well made receiver I've seen, from the electronic components to the extruded aluminum. I'd really like to keep this one.
It also turns out that all the caps tested like new except for two caps in the PS section which were nothing to worry about for the next 5-10 yrs. So you'll be happy to hear I didn't modify the unit except for replacing a smoked lamp transistor.
By the way, thanks for the lamps (just kidding). :D

jdurbin1
11-07-2008, 08:12 PM
Ouch, that d$&&*d phony lamp took out the driver? I hate it when that happens... still waiting for some acknowledgment from my supplier that they screwed up & will take care of me on this. I think yours was the only one that got out but there was a previous batch shipped that I'm still backtracking on, some of them haven't been installed yet.

Will have some more 2080 parts spare soon, let me know if there's anything else you need - I owe you one. Glad to hear you had the same take on the build quality on this critter... they are a pleasure to work on for sure.

John

P.S. The one cap I'd look REAL hard at is the 1000uF/63V (gold Frako cap usually but I've seen them with a Plessey cap in that location) that sits on the voltage regulator board near the fuse. It helps filter the DC line to the tuner & preamp, have seen those unload all over the board and make things stop working. Check the end facing towards the rear of the unit, it's hard to see well when the board is in place. Any signs of bulging, I'd replace it on general principles...

DeafbyKhorns
11-07-2008, 10:06 PM
P.S. The one cap I'd look REAL hard at is the 1000uF/63V (gold Frako cap usually but I've seen them with a Plessey cap in that location) that sits on the voltage regulator board near the fuse. It helps filter the DC line to the tuner & preamp, have seen those unload all over the board and make things stop working. Check the end facing towards the rear of the unit, it's hard to see well when the board is in place. Any signs of bulging, I'd replace it on general principles...
Yes, that is the one my ESR says is slightly dry. This is also a cap that McIntosh used which was notorious for exploding. Or was it Revox, damn, my memory is bad these days.

xoaphexox
11-08-2008, 04:26 PM
Hey JDurbin, I found this guy in Japan that does blanket replacements of capacitors and compares the unit on a digital scope before and afterwards.

Made me wonder if it's scientific evidence of quality increase by using new components. Problem is I cant read Japanese :)

http://amp8.jp/sansui/etc/ca3000-6.htm

niklasthedol
11-09-2008, 06:21 AM
IMHO the problem with TR 2XXX series is that they completely lack soundstage/perspective/room definition and they also lack some precision.

Otherwise they are splendid.

And I believe the problem is situated in the amp section.

"dolph"

jdurbin1
11-10-2008, 10:05 PM
Can you be more specific? There is tremendous variance from the early models and smaller models (use 2025 as the earlier/lower power limit) and the 2080 (as the latest/most powerful limit). Kinda hard to make a blanket statement like that about a series of receivers that ran from 25 WPC to closer to 100WPC, and that were built starting in the mid-1970's and continued into the early 80's.

Plus, remember this is a receiver. Not a component power amp, although granted that was Tandberg's argument: that an integrated piece built correctly could perform as well as a stack of components.

I don't have any issue with either precision or soundstage with the 2075 MkII and 2080, but then again I am not benchmarking against esoteric audiophile gear either. I don't believe in fairies or very much in the sound quality of cables, either. Call me a grounded pragmatist and draw your own conclusions.

John

IMHO the problem with TR 2XXX series is that they completely lack soundstage/perspective/room definition and they also lack some precision.

Otherwise they are splendid.

And I believe the problem is situated in the amp section.

"dolph"

niklasthedol
11-11-2008, 05:06 AM
Can you be more specific? There is tremendous variance from the early models and smaller models (use 2025 as the earlier/lower power limit) and the 2080 (as the latest/most powerful limit). Kinda hard to make a blanket statement like that about a series of receivers that ran from 25 WPC to closer to 100WPC, and that were built starting in the mid-1970's and continued into the early 80's.

Plus, remember this is a receiver. Not a component power amp, although granted that was Tandberg's argument: that an integrated piece built correctly could perform as well as a stack of components.

I don't have any issue with either precision or soundstage with the 2075 MkII and 2080, but then again I am not benchmarking against esoteric audiophile gear either. I don't believe in fairies or very much in the sound quality of cables, either. Call me a grounded pragmatist and draw your own conclusions.

John

If I'm supposed to be more precise, I can only say I had the 2075 (mkI - a name it never had) and 2075 mkII, the 2080 and the 2055.
(And some amps in the 3000 series and the Huldra and....and.....)

You won't know it's an issue until you compare or until you get the habit of listening to everything worth listening to.

I believe the tuner part inside them are beautyful made and they sound close to the 3011 that later came from Tandberg.

I still own the Tandberg TPT 3001A tuner and the Tandberg TCD 910 because I still have not found any other brand of tuner or cassette player doing any better even though I compared to Magnum Dynalab, Day Sequerra TOTL and a lot other tuners and I had all the best from Nakamichi, Revox etc. within Cassette recorders.

So my critizism is not "brand-hate" related.

It's purely in search of the best sound.

"dolph"

jdurbin1
11-11-2008, 08:52 PM
Fair enough... so you were referencing more the top-end models, not the older or smaller ones as much. That does help focus the discussion on the real issue which is not really brand-based but philosophical differences in how we approach this audio hobby.

I would agree that the tuner may very well be the best part of these Tandberg designs. The preamps also I think are pretty good, the main amp section potentially less but again it's a receiver and not a straight power amp; what other receivers would you compare it to? Regardless, to me they are very enjoyable equipment to listen to, to look at, and to work on. That is all important to me, in varying degrees of priority.

On the "not knowing it's an issue" comment, I have to disagree in part (but will break it into two parts!). One, I don't need to hear "everything worth listening to" - how would you even know if you had? Is there a list somewhere? - to know whether a piece of audio gear has audibly inferior performance in the areas you mentioned. I only have to know what inferior sound is, and recognize it. That is not a problem, trust me - I worked professionally in car audio and heard a lot of junk over the years. These receivers are far, far above that cut-off. Also it is not difficult to learn about, experience and grasp the fundamentals of sound reproduction. You don't have to experience "everything worth listening to" by a long shot, to have what most people will consider "golden ears" or critical listening skills.

Second, comparisons of audio gear over time with other variables are - although entertaining and certainly part of the fun in this hobby - essentially meaningless in terms of accuracy. To start with, your ears are not the same every day, they are affected by (among other things) physical condition and age. what you heard a year ago vs. what you hear now and what you'll hear in a year are not the same. And, your brain starts to interpret what it heard within a very short duration of the actual hearing it, so if the comparisons are more than a few seconds apart in time you are not comparing the new sound with the previous, but with what your brain thought it heard previously. These are demonstrable physical realities of being human that we have to acknowledge.

Mix in other things like temperature & humidity, were you under the influence at one time but not another (yes, drinking & drugs change the physiology of hearing!), was the room different in any way physically, did you change more than one component out in that time, was your state of mind different then vs. now, etc. etc. and you have so many non-controlled variables that the comparison is not really a comparison but merely a subjective reporting of what you felt about two different listening experiences in time.

That opinion may possibly be of interest and relevance to you, but it's irrelevant and useless to most of the rest of us. It is certainly not sufficient basis that anyone else should use it to decide whether to buy or own a piece of audio equipment themselves!

Now on the other hand, if you can state with certainty that brand X amplifier is not worth owning because the six of them that you took home each in succession burst into flames, your experience could be considered very relevant to others - assuming the obvious i.e. it wasn't 110V gear connected to 240V source, weren't trying to drive a pair of shorted woofers, didn't have 65VDC riding the signal coming from the preamp and so on.

If you enjoy the hunt of constantly striving for and searching for the "best" sound (whatever that is!) more than you value the enjoyment of appreciating what you are listening to now, so be it. Rock on, in fact. The audio business wouldn't be what it is without that obsession.

For myself, although I am very aware of and object to having to listen to lousy sound, I try to not let the knowledge that there is other equipment in the world besides what I am listening to now, that might sound better than what I am listening to now, interfere with my pleasure from enjoying what I am listening to now. It's possible to enjoy the present and the pursuit at the same time, in other words.

As an analogy, if I enjoy a good bottle of wine at a pleasant meal with some friends, and then a few months later share an even better bottle of wine with a different group of friends, is my conclusion that the first group of friends and the wine we drank were inferior? And do I extrapolate that to conclude that I should drop my old friends and get rid of any of that wine I might have brought home, so I can go look for better friends and better wine? Do I think or speak poorly of the wine I drank in the past (that seemed good at the time) or the friends I shared it with, if I happen to find an even better bottle & new group to share it with? No, my conclusion is that drinking good wine with friends is a nice way to enjoy life and that I should look for more opportunities to do that!

John

If I'm supposed to be more precise, I can only say I had the 2075 (mkI - a name it never had) and 2075 mkII, the 2080 and the 2055.
(And some amps in the 3000 series and the Huldra and....and.....)

You won't know it's an issue until you compare or until you get the habit of listening to everything worth listening to.

I believe the tuner part inside them are beautyful made and they sound close to the 3011 that later came from Tandberg.

I still own the Tandberg TPT 3001A tuner and the Tandberg TCD 910 because I still have not found any other brand of tuner or cassette player doing any better even though I compared to Magnum Dynalab, Day Sequerra TOTL and a lot other tuners and I had all the best from Nakamichi, Revox etc. within Cassette recorders.

So my critizism is not "brand-hate" related.

It's purely in search of the best sound.

"dolph"

niklasthedol
11-12-2008, 06:07 AM
Fair enough... so you were referencing more the top-end models, not the older or smaller ones as much. That does help focus the discussion on the real issue which is not really brand-based but philosophical differences in how we approach this audio hobby.

I would agree that the tuner may very well be the best part of these Tandberg designs. The preamps also I think are pretty good, the main amp section potentially less but again it's a receiver and not a straight power amp; what other receivers would you compare it to? Regardless, to me they are very enjoyable equipment to listen to, to look at, and to work on. That is all important to me, in varying degrees of priority.

On the "not knowing it's an issue" comment, I have to disagree in part (but will break it into two parts!). One, I don't need to hear "everything worth listening to" - how would you even know if you had? Is there a list somewhere? - to know whether a piece of audio gear has audibly inferior performance in the areas you mentioned. I only have to know what inferior sound is, and recognize it. That is not a problem, trust me - I worked professionally in car audio and heard a lot of junk over the years. These receivers are far, far above that cut-off. Also it is not difficult to learn about, experience and grasp the fundamentals of sound reproduction. You don't have to experience "everything worth listening to" by a long shot, to have what most people will consider "golden ears" or critical listening skills.

Second, comparisons of audio gear over time with other variables are - although entertaining and certainly part of the fun in this hobby - essentially meaningless in terms of accuracy. To start with, your ears are not the same every day, they are affected by (among other things) physical condition and age. what you heard a year ago vs. what you hear now and what you'll hear in a year are not the same. And, your brain starts to interpret what it heard within a very short duration of the actual hearing it, so if the comparisons are more than a few seconds apart in time you are not comparing the new sound with the previous, but with what your brain thought it heard previously. These are demonstrable physical realities of being human that we have to acknowledge.

Mix in other things like temperature & humidity, were you under the influence at one time but not another (yes, drinking & drugs change the physiology of hearing!), was the room different in any way physically, did you change more than one component out in that time, was your state of mind different then vs. now, etc. etc. and you have so many non-controlled variables that the comparison is not really a comparison but merely a subjective reporting of what you felt about two different listening experiences in time.

That opinion may possibly be of interest and relevance to you, but it's irrelevant and useless to most of the rest of us. It is certainly not sufficient basis that anyone else should use it to decide whether to buy or own a piece of audio equipment themselves!

Now on the other hand, if you can state with certainty that brand X amplifier is not worth owning because the six of them that you took home each in succession burst into flames, your experience could be considered very relevant to others - assuming the obvious i.e. it wasn't 110V gear connected to 240V source, weren't trying to drive a pair of shorted woofers, didn't have 65VDC riding the signal coming from the preamp and so on.

If you enjoy the hunt of constantly striving for and searching for the "best" sound (whatever that is!) more than you value the enjoyment of appreciating what you are listening to now, so be it. Rock on, in fact. The audio business wouldn't be what it is without that obsession.

For myself, although I am very aware of and object to having to listen to lousy sound, I try to not let the knowledge that there is other equipment in the world besides what I am listening to now, that might sound better than what I am listening to now, interfere with my pleasure from enjoying what I am listening to now. It's possible to enjoy the present and the pursuit at the same time, in other words.

As an analogy, if I enjoy a good bottle of wine at a pleasant meal with some friends, and then a few months later share an even better bottle of wine with a different group of friends, is my conclusion that the first group of friends and the wine we drank were inferior? And do I extrapolate that to conclude that I should drop my old friends and get rid of any of that wine I might have brought home, so I can go look for better friends and better wine? Do I think or speak poorly of the wine I drank in the past (that seemed good at the time) or the friends I shared it with, if I happen to find an even better bottle & new group to share it with? No, my conclusion is that drinking good wine with friends is a nice way to enjoy life and that I should look for more opportunities to do that!

John

What a long excuse for keeping your Tandberg reciever.
:-)

If you're happy with it you keep it.
Isn't that just it?

I just wanna tell you that IF you want to "get higher" there are easy options.

End of story.

"dolph"

jdurbin1
11-12-2008, 02:01 PM
Really? I can buy something better than a 2080?

Wow, who knew... I guess I better get started shopping.

Or, I could just listen to one of the other 4 systems I have set up currently at home that don't have a 2080 in them - assuming any of those meet with your approval, of course.

John
since you seem to like it short and to the point!

DeafbyKhorns
11-15-2008, 09:24 AM
I would agree that the tuner may very well be the best part of these Tandberg designs. The preamps also I think are pretty good, the main amp section potentially less but again it's a receiver and not a straight power amp; what other receivers would you compare it to? Regardless, to me they are very enjoyable equipment to listen to, to look at, and to work on. That is all important to me, in varying degrees of priority.


John

You are dead on the money with the above statement. I connected the pre out to my McIntosh MC275 and the system blew away my McIntosh pre-amp/tuner combo. Any any other combo I've heard in the last 10 yrs. Of course we can blame the speakers, cables, yada, yada, yada

GeneT
12-28-2008, 01:29 AM
Was the blind listening test ever done?