View Full Version : Is a THORENS movable headshell tough to match a cartridge with?


vagust
11-07-2008, 06:15 PM
I called an online store about a cartidge for my 145 II table. The salesman said if I had the headshell that requires the cartridge to be screwed in from the bottom, that the only cartridges that would would work (that he had) were the Sumiko blue point 2, Shelter 201, and a Grado gold. Do these moveable type Thorens headshells really limit the cartridge possibilities that much?
I'm wondering what others might work.

Mr. Lin
11-07-2008, 06:31 PM
I called an online store about a cartidge for my 145 II table. The salesman said if I had the headshell that requires the cartridge to be screwed in from the bottom, that the only cartridges that would would work (that he had) were the Sumiko blue point 2, Shelter 201, and a Grado gold. Do these moveable type Thorens headshells really limit the cartridge possibilities that much?
I'm wondering what others might work.

My Thorens is also only compatible with the removable headshell it originally came with. With that specific dealer sure you're limited, but there are lots of cartridges out there that will work with that headshell. One important thing to keep in mind is that you need to use proper screws for the threads in the Thorens headshell, not the screws that come with a new cartridge (generally speaking). If you don't have these, turntablebasics.com sells a little packet that includes various lengths of the correct screws for $15. That's what I got after being tipped off by another AK member a while back.

How about Benz Micro? I've used the MC20E2 H cartridge on my Thorens with great results, as well as a Dynavector 10X5, and a Grado Silver, plus some others. So unless you're into one of the cartridges that your dealer has, don't limit yourself. Remember that basically everything out there is available online.

vagust
11-07-2008, 06:59 PM
Thanks Mr. Lin. I looked at some cartridges at the needledoctor site, and seems that quite a few, like the Grado wood body ones, don't appear to have screwholes in the bottom. As far as i can tell, from looking at my headshell/cartidge that's is there now (old Adcom cartridge), the screws are inserted from the bottom and attach to the bottom part of the headshell.

vagust
11-07-2008, 07:03 PM
Another thought. Is the distance between the screwholes on cartridges standard? Will they line up properly into this type of Thorens headshell?

hifi_nut
11-07-2008, 07:14 PM
Is the distance between the screwholes on cartridges standard?

Yes.

Mr. Lin
11-07-2008, 07:22 PM
Another thought. Is the distance between the screwholes on cartridges standard? Will they line up properly into this type of Thorens headshell?

Yes, it's called half-inch mount.

Sadly, you cannot use any of the wood body Grados with your headshell. But don't despair, you have a lot of great choices.

meggy
11-07-2008, 07:28 PM
The "downside" to those arm wands can also be an "upside" for swapping carts. I've got 4 of the arms each with a different cartridge mounted.

Shure M91ED
Ortofon Super OM/ 40
Shure M97 x
Shure V15 Type III

I bought some Herbies Tonearm Dampeners, which I didn't really hear a difference on my system but they turned out to be useful counter-counter weights. Each armwand has a Herbies on it at a certain postion allowing for the cart weight. So I can leave the TT counterbalance in one place and just swap the entire arm.

Next will be a Benz of some sort.

Mr. Lin
11-07-2008, 07:39 PM
The "downside" to those arm wands can also be an "upside" for swapping carts. I've got 4 of the arms each with a different cartridge mounted.

Shure M91ED
Ortofon Super OM/ 40
Shure M97 x
Shure V15 Type III

I bought some Herbies Tonearm Dampeners, which I didn't really hear a difference on my system but they turned out to be useful counter-counter weights. Each armwand has a Herbies on it at a certain postion allowing for the cart weight. So I can leave the TT counterbalance in one place and just swap the entire arm.

Next will be a Benz of some sort.

My TP16 tonearm is not one of the removable-wand types, so I'd have to find actual matching headshells, but that would be great. Maybe the Herbie's dampers didn't work for you because you have the detachable tonearm? Or, maybe I'm just crazy. :D

meggy
11-07-2008, 07:43 PM
My TP16 tonearm is not one of the removable-wand types, so I'd have to find actual matching headshells, but that would be great. Maybe the Herbie's dampers didn't work for you because you have the detachable tonearm? Or, maybe I'm just crazy. :D

Maybe both? :D

Seriously, you could be right re: the arm.

vagust
11-07-2008, 07:53 PM
That's a great idea! By the way, should I be looking for a light, medium, heavy-weight cartridge? I am using the stock tp16II arm at a weight of 7.5 grams. You guys will have to excuse me, it's been almost 20 years since I bought a cartridge. I've been reading up a "compliance" etc, and have to admit it can get confusing. I am not up to speed on a lot of the vocabulary. The TT was given to me a few years ago, and I can't tell you how thrilled I am. It appears to have a very good cartridge in it, and while it still sounds good, it's seen some hours. I've bought more vinyl in the last 3 years than I've bought cd's in 20 years! Thanks for the valuable info. I was thinking about the Grado Sonata till I found out about this headshell issue. I should probably stick with a high output coil since the current one matches well volume wise with my phono stage. But I am concerned now about the compliance issue.

Mr. Lin
11-07-2008, 09:37 PM
That's a great idea! By the way, should I be looking for a light, medium, heavy-weight cartridge? I am using the stock tp16II arm at a weight of 7.5 grams. You guys will have to excuse me, it's been almost 20 years since I bought a cartridge. I've been reading up a "compliance" etc, and have to admit it can get confusing. I am not up to speed on a lot of the vocabulary. The TT was given to me a few years ago, and I can't tell you how thrilled I am. It appears to have a very good cartridge in it, and while it still sounds good, it's seen some hours. I've bought more vinyl in the last 3 years than I've bought cd's in 20 years! Thanks for the valuable info. I was thinking about the Grado Sonata till I found out about this headshell issue. I should probably stick with a high output coil since the current one matches well volume wise with my phono stage. But I am concerned now about the compliance issue.

Ok, 7.5g is a bit on the low side as far as mass goes, so you'd be better off with a high compliance cartridge. Low mass tonearm, high compliance cartridge. High mass tonearm, low compliance cartridge. You can get an idea of a cartridges compliance by the recommended vertical tracking force. High compliance cartridges typically run from .75g to 1.25g (or a little higher), and low compliance cartridges (moving coils) usually track at about 1.7g to 2.5g. There are exceptions of course.

Some MC cartridges are "medium" compliance. It seems to me that a lot of the newer MC cartridges are made like this, possibly so they're a better match for the common medium mass tonearms that come with a lot of new turntables. I'm not sure, but it might not be a good idea to use any MC cartridge with your tonearm, although adding a headshell weight might change that.

I'm hoping someone here on AK can chime in with a definitive answer about whether or not the TP16II works well with any MC cartridges, and if not, what it does work well with. You might need to stick with something like Audio Technica - the 150MLX would probably sound outstanding with that turntable. Grado would work too, but you'd be limited to the Prestige lineup. Nothing wrong with that IMO, I love my Silver.

So let's wait and see who can tell us what works with that tonearm, I know there are people here who use the exact turntable/tonearm that you have. You have good reason to be excited, by the way.

Mr. Lin
11-07-2008, 09:39 PM
Maybe both? :D

Seriously, you could be right re: the arm.

Yes, it's really not a question whether or not I'm crazy. :banana:

vagust
11-07-2008, 10:09 PM
Mr. Lin, what about a high output moving coil? How does that fit into the scenario?

Divotdog
11-08-2008, 08:57 AM
I havenít had a lot of luck with HOMC carts on my TP-16 (I have the same one as you and Meggy), although I tried a Denon DL-160 for awhile and it was pretty good, I am currently using an AT-440MLa that seems to match it very well, Mr. Linnís suggestion of an AT-150-MLX is an excellent one, that is the next cart on my list, donít forget to add your screws into your weight when figuring out compliance issues, screws are also available at the analog dept. :thmbsp:

vagust
11-08-2008, 06:41 PM
That brings up another question. What number range is considered high compliance? And are high compliance carts always tracking in the 1.25- 1.75 range, or or there some that go over 2 grams?

ehoove
11-08-2008, 07:03 PM
Go here to find compatability info on your arm
http://www.cartridgedb.com/default_arms.asp
Lots of info there
Regards,
Jim

ehoove
11-08-2008, 07:16 PM
I have wanted to try a Sumiko Blackbird in my TD125MkII for awhile, but they seem to be designed to be top mounted with threaded top plate. so I have been leary to invest that kind of money into a cartridge that will not fit my TP60 headshell so I feel your pain.
Regards,
Jim

vagust
11-08-2008, 07:39 PM
Apparently the blue point#2 is the only one that fits, of the sumiko. Thanks for the site.
P.S. I'm listening to my thorens right now with the ols Adcom cartridge and it sounds damn good! But with 1000 hours plus on it, I think it's time.

Mr. Lin
11-08-2008, 10:28 PM
Mr. Lin, what about a high output moving coil? How does that fit into the scenario?

With respect to what we're considering here, it's pretty much the same as the low-output cartridges. Still medium or low compliance, and would work better with a heavier arm. I might have already said this, but I had success using a Dynavector 10X5 and of course the MC20E2 H on my Thorens, and both are high-output MC cartridges, but the TP16 has an effective mass of 16g.

I know this is a pain in the neck, but you do have some very good options, especially with your budget. If you want to get into the whole MC cartridge thing you're probably going to have to get another turntable for that, or put a different tonearm on the Thorens.

vagust
11-09-2008, 10:08 AM
I found the following info on the web. Is this info fairly accurate? At least I can understand it, and can follow the formula he puts down.


Tonearm/Cartridge Capability
For best performance, the tonearm and cartridge must be matched. All cartridges will not work with all tonearms, and vice versa. To insure a proper match, one must be aware of the mechanical specifications of both the arm and phono cartridge. To see how these characteristics interact and determine compatibility, we must first understand the dynamics of the relationship.

Any cartridge/tonearm combination will exhibit resonance at a specific frequency (or frequencies). This resonance is due to the interaction of the cartridge (acting as a spring), and the weight of the arm (acting as a mass). The "springiness" of the phono cartridge is described as compliance, the weight of the arm is specified in mass. As an example, a heavy weight on a light spring would obviously over-flex the spring, conversely, a light weight on a strong spring would not allow sufficient flexion.

At resonance, the arm/cartridge combination produces a dramatic rise in output. An increase of 3 to 6dB or more is common. This tremendous boost can cause severe problems if it occurs in the region of recorded music (above 2OHz), or in the area where record warps and rumble are problematic (below 5Hz). A cartridge/arm whose resonance occurs in the region above 2OHz can be influenced by music on the record. At this frequency a significant jump in output (resulting in a "bloated" or "tubby" sound) will be experienced. In extreme cases, the stylus may actually jump out of the groove. Similarly, a cartridge/arm combination that exhibits a resonance below the desired range will exaggerate the effects of record warps, or rumble produced by the turntable.

The goal in matching a specific cartridge and arm is to achieve a resonance in the 10 to 14Hz range. Some feel that limiting this range even further, to 9 to 11hZ, is best.

I've seen the following formula for calculating the resonant frequency of an arm/cartridge:
Resonant Frequency = 1000/[6.28*square root (M*C)]. Where M is the mass of the arm and cartridge and C is the compliance of the cartridge. As an example, if we had an arm/cartridge with a combined mass of 14g, and a cartridge with a compliance of 20, the resonant frequency would be 9.535.

This simple equation doesn't take into account all factors, including tonearm damping and, internal cartridge damping, but it will give you general idea of compatibility.

A decade ago, high-compliance cartridges were the rage and these needed to mate with very low mass tonearms. However, todayís heavier, lower-compliance phono cartridges (especially moving coils) have required tonearm designers/manufacturers to reorient themselves in the direction of medium to high-mass arms. Further, some of the currently available MC cartridges put back a tremendous amount of energy into the arm. This reflected energy takes the form of standing waves, which travel up and down the length of the tonearm, potentially creating mis-tracking problems and/or frequency dependent cancellation. A well designed tonearm will dissipate this energy, rather than reflecting it back to the cartridge. The ability of the arm to accomplish this will be dependent upon bearing design, internal damping and rigidity.

In a situation where a higher compliance cartridge is employed in a medium to high mass tonearm, the ill-effects of the match can be mitigated to some degree if the tonearm offers fluid damping. Here, a small paddle connected to the arm rests in a reservoir filled with viscous silicone fluid. This design feature restricts small, rapid motions of the arm (like the small undulations that would occur in a high-compliance cartridge), while providing unrestricted progress to the arm as it slowly traces across the record. This system also may improve the sound of some phono cartridges that offer little internal damping of their own.

The only way to accurately measure system resonance is with a calibrated low frequency test record and a chart recorder, or other sophisticated test equipment. Since most of us do not possess this capability, it is wise to do some preliminary homework in assessing the compatibility of any potential arm/cartridge combination. There are a few general "rules of thumb" that we need to consider:

* A tonearm whose effective mass is rated at 10 grams or below is considered low mass (e.g. early SMEís, Grace 747 etc.). A tonearm whose effective mass is rated between 11 and 25 grams is considered moderate mass (e.g. SME 309, IV, IV-Vi, V, Triplanar, Graham). Arms above 25 grams of mass are high mass in nature (Eminent Technology, Dynavector).

* A phono cartridge whose compliance is rated at 12 x l0ˉ6 or below, is considered low compliance. A cartridge whose compliance is rated between 13 x l0ˉ6 and 25 x l0ˉ6 is considered high to very high. Note: Another way of expressing compliance is um/mN. Here a rating of 5 to 10 is considered very low, 10 to 20 is moderate and above 35 is very high.

* Low mass arms mate well with both moderately high and very high compliance phono cartridges.

* Moderate mass tonearms are good companions for moderate to low compliance cartridges.

* If a low compliance cartridge is used with a low mass tonearm, undesirable resonances can occur in the audible range. Mistracking may also be a problem.

* When a high compliance cartridge is mated with a moderate mass tonearm, resonances in the infrasonic range may occur in addition to some unwanted high frequency damping.

It may not be possible in every case to accurately determine whether a particular cartridge is suited to a given tonearm by a simple glance at the specifications. This is especially true in border-line situations. However, poor combinations can be easily identified and avoided.

Several variables can influence our ability to accurately predict a match using the manufacturers supplied specifications. Some of these are: 1) The manufacturers specifications themselves can vary in accuracy due to differences in measurement techniques. 2) Sample to sample variation of the cartridge. 3) Differing amounts of internal damping of the cartridge or tonearm and 4) the age of the cartridge. The situation is further complicated by the fact that we should calculate both vertical and horizontal resonance points.

Happily, most of the popular, modem-day moving coil (and many moving magnet) cartridges and the current crop of medium mass tonearms represent a fairly good match. Exceptions do exist however, and we should be aware of the sonic pitfalls. An improperly matched cartridge and tonearm will not only sound poorly, it may even cause irreparable damage to records and stylus. So, it is well worth the effort in preliminary comparisons to determine the compatibility of the proposed cartridge and tonearm.

ARJohn
11-09-2008, 10:29 AM
Yes, it's called half-inch mount.

Sadly, you cannot use any of the wood body Grados with your headshell. But don't despair, you have a lot of great choices.


Yikes ! that's what my heart is set on . The TD160 /with TP16 has the cover on the top of the headshell removed . I then removed the little plastic block with the treaded holes in it and have mounted several carts in like that , using normal bolts from the top .(not the the 2M? thoren's ones)
Seems to work pretty good , sadly hard to find headshells for this arm .
So am I missing something other than not having the cover on the headshell ? I have used spacers on top of the cart to get what I think is a pretty good install ? I should be able to use any 1/2 mount cart now , even the Grado Sonta , I hope !

Divotdog
11-09-2008, 12:30 PM
Yikes ! that's what my heart is set on . The TD160 /with TP16 has the cover on the top of the headshell removed . I then removed the little plastic block with the treaded holes in it and have mounted several carts in like that , using normal bolts from the top .(not the the 2M? thoren's ones)
Seems to work pretty good , sadly hard to find headshells for this arm .
So am I missing something other than not having the cover on the headshell ? I have used spacers on top of the cart to get what I think is a pretty good install ? I should be able to use any 1/2 mount cart now , even the Grado Sonta , I hope !

I sure would like to see a pic of what you are doing!

vagust
11-09-2008, 01:00 PM
What is supporting the cartridge with that top plate off?
Yes, some pics would be great!

Vince

ARJohn
11-09-2008, 02:27 PM
Well the table came with the top off the headshell . there are 2 slots , just like on removable head shells for the S type arms . You can slide the cart forward and back . The little block I removed as it didn't fit my bolts , Thorens uses a smaller thread . Installed the cart with a spacer I had from a previous cart and seems to work fine . Sorry the pics are not hi res but I think you can see it ? Once nice thing is when looking down from above it's very easy to align the cart on the protractor grid .

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v737/madog99/thorensheadshell2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v737/madog99/thorensheadshell.jpg

Divotdog
11-09-2008, 05:47 PM
Nice mod, that is the TP-16, I believe the OP has the MkII.

ARJohn
11-10-2008, 07:32 PM
Nice mod, that is the TP-16, I believe the OP has the MkII.


Opps , right you are . Thought it was the one like I used to have , TP16 tonearm if memory serves but was a long time ago .

Mr. Lin
11-10-2008, 07:47 PM
Great John, now you have me thinking about popping the cover off my TP16 headshell. Is this some sort of revenge?

Let me ask you this: before you replaced the slots that didn't match your screws, were you able to install screws from the top with the original Thorens headshell slot still installed (theoretically)?

vagust
11-10-2008, 08:12 PM
Here's the original (at least i think!) headshell on the tp16II arm of the Thorens 145II in photos.

ARJohn
11-10-2008, 08:59 PM
Great John, now you have me thinking about popping the cover off my TP16 headshell. Is this some sort of revenge?

Let me ask you this: before you replaced the slots that didn't match your screws, were you able to install screws from the top with the original Thorens headshell slot still installed (theoretically)?


ha ha , serves you right for filling my head with stuff !! Sorry I can't answer your question as the table came with no cover on it .It had the little plastic piece that actually has the threaded holes in it . this little thing slides back and forth in the slots , covered by the cover . So once you take it off you have the 2 slots at 1/2 distance , same as a normal head shell . I used the overhang gauge that I had found from my old td146 that had the same arm to get the height correct , had to use a small spacer that came with another cart . It seems to work fine and I don't see any reason why other's haven't found this out (maybe that fact that these are not available items ?) My hats off to the dude I bought it off I guess. I supose you got bought the head shell cover back on after installing the cart of your choice , but what does it do except say thorens on it ? Does it have any effect on sound ? that's a question for smarter minds than mine .


does he or doesn't he do the surgery , stay tuned folks :D

Mr. Lin
11-10-2008, 09:22 PM
ha ha , serves you right for filling my head with stuff !! Sorry I can't answer your question as the table came with no cover on it .It had the little plastic piece that actually has the threaded holes in it . this little thing slides back and forth in the slots , covered by the cover . So once you take it off you have the 2 slots at 1/2 distance , same as a normal head shell . I used the overhang gauge that I had found from my old td146 that had the same arm to get the height correct , had to use a small spacer that came with another cart . It seems to work fine and I don't see any reason why other's haven't found this out (maybe that fact that these are not available items ?) My hats off to the dude I bought it off I guess. I supose you got bought the head shell cover back on after installing the cart of your choice , but what does it do except say thorens on it ? Does it have any effect on sound ? that's a question for smarter minds than mine .


does he or doesn't he do the surgery , stay tuned folks :D

I'm not so concerned about the appearance of the headshell, and if it doesn't work I could always glue it back on. But I'm wondering how I'll pry that cover off in the first place...

Divotdog
11-11-2008, 07:13 AM
I'm following this with great interest, I think that a 2M Black would be a great match with this arm. :scratch2:

vagust
11-11-2008, 07:33 AM
The 2M black doesn't look like it can be screwed into the headshell from the bottom. Specs make it more of a medium compliance it seems. The Denon dl160 has pretty much the same tracking force, about 1.75, but it can be screwed in from the bottom.

Vintageman1
11-11-2008, 07:41 AM
Ok guys, let me get this straight. I own a Thorens TD 160 with the TP-16 tonearm. It came with a cartridge installed. It wasn't until this post I realised the trouble mounting a cartridge in this headshell. Since the screws do not go through the top of the headshell, conventional screws and nuts do not work.....right? Am I correct though is the proper length screws are used to fasten the cartridge, any 1/2 inch mount will work? Does Thorens use conventional size, ie diameter/threads per inch as are found normally in packets provided with most cartridges or do they have to be sourced out? Just a bit confused after reading the post and need a quick synopsis!
Thanks for this helpfull post!!!

ARJohn
11-11-2008, 11:34 AM
Ok guys, let me get this straight. I own a Thorens TD 160 with the TP-16 tonearm. It came with a cartridge installed. It wasn't until this post I realised the trouble mounting a cartridge in this headshell. Since the screws do not go through the top of the headshell, conventional screws and nuts do not work.....right? Am I correct though is the proper length screws are used to fasten the cartridge, any 1/2 inch mount will work? Does Thorens use conventional size, ie diameter/threads per inch as are found normally in packets provided with most cartridges or do they have to be sourced out? Just a bit confused after reading the post and need a quick synopsis!
Thanks for this helpfull post!!!

from reading at the thorens site , they use a metric size , 2M , smaller than most . but they do sell them on line in a pack of assorted lenghts at theanaloguedepot for $15 . Hope that helps.

Vintageman1
11-11-2008, 11:50 AM
That Helps!!! Thankyou.:thmbsp:

ARJohn
11-12-2008, 07:16 PM
some pics of my tp16 headshell stripped down before I installed a cart last night for those that may want to try this . Wish I could tell you how to remove the top cover .


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v737/madog99/Picture045.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v737/madog99/Picture046.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v737/madog99/Picture047.jpg

vagust
11-12-2008, 07:37 PM
Divotdog,

The om20,30,40 can be screwed in from the bottom. The tracking force is 1.5; might be good.

ARJohn, I wish removing the top of mine would be enough, but that tp16II headshell is a different animal.

Mr. Lin
11-12-2008, 08:47 PM
John I took a look at my TP16 headshell tonight while I was installing a new cartridge and realized that just removing the top cover wouldn't be enough. I would need to install a new slotted half inch mount piece, because what's on there now is not open from the top.

ARJohn
11-12-2008, 09:04 PM
John I took a look at my TP16 headshell tonight while I was installing a new cartridge and realized that just removing the top cover wouldn't be enough. I would need to install a new slotted half inch mount piece, because what's on there now is not open from the top.

Hmmm ? I wonder if mine is the same as yours? As far as I know it's a TP16 mark nothing from the 70's on the 160 . I am just installing the cart right on the headshell in the photo , without the little slide that was in there to accept the Thorens size bolts . The bolts , from other carts , have a head big enough that they don't go through the 2 slots . Might be mine is a different model ? But like I said it came like that so I have no way of knowing what it was like stock . I just removed the little block and seems to be good to go .

Divotdog
11-12-2008, 09:21 PM
Divotdog,

The om20,30,40 can be screwed in from the bottom. The tracking force is 1.5; might be good.

The 2M Black tracking force is 1.4-1.7, it is a a whole different animal than the OM series. :thmbsp:

Mr. Lin
11-12-2008, 10:52 PM
Hmmm ? I wonder if mine is the same as yours? As far as I know it's a TP16 mark nothing from the 70's on the 160 . I am just installing the cart right on the headshell in the photo , without the little slide that was in there to accept the Thorens size bolts . The bolts , from other carts , have a head big enough that they don't go through the 2 slots . Might be mine is a different model ? But like I said it came like that so I have no way of knowing what it was like stock . I just removed the little block and seems to be good to go .

I could do it John, but it would require me to find another 1/2" slot to put in place of the original. Not sure exactly where I'd get something like that. In truth I should be thinking about doing this the right way, replacing the tonearm altogether. Don't get me wrong, I think the TP16 is a good tonearm, it gets a lot of undeserved criticism, but to realize the full potential of the TD125 MKII I think I'm eventually going to have to put a better tonearm on it. That's not likely to happen for a while though, too much on my plate at the moment.

We do have the same headshell, by the way.

vagust
11-15-2008, 01:18 PM
Divitdog,

I read in another post that someone with our same headshell removed the small metal rectangular tab with the "Thorens" insignia, and was then able to access the screwholes from the top. That might allow that 2M Black to fit.
I haven't tried it yet. A little concerned I might lose the fingerlift. Just a thought.

Vince

Divotdog
11-15-2008, 10:01 PM
Divitdog,

I read in another post that someone with our same headshell removed the small metal rectangular tab with the "Thorens" insignia, and was then able to access the screwholes from the top. That might allow that 2M Black to fit.
I haven't tried it yet. A little concerned I might lose the fingerlift. Just a thought.

Vince

I have looked it over and considered that approach, but I think I might be in agreement with Mr. Linn here, in our case the TP-16 MkII is a great tone arm, but in order to get everything out of my table that it can deliver I believe that I will be upgrading the TA at some point in the future, the problem here will be what arm to upgrade to, I have looked at the Rega RB 250 but I donít think that it is an upgrade from the MkII arm.