I just watched a very interesting roundtable on "Deep Listening" (http://philoctetes.org/Past_Programs/Deep_Listening_Why_Audio_Quality_Matters).

It covers a lot of topics that come up here quite often (esp. the SACD issue.)

Since watching it, I've tried to practice "deep listening" which included turning off the lights and, ahem, even the VU meters on the MC501s.

I must say that, despite the great convenience of digital, deep listening in the dark through a turntable was, for whatever reason, a VERY fulfilling and relaxing experience.

I tried deep listening before I had a mostly McIntosh system and, somehow, it never touched me as much as it did with the smooth sound of the McIntosh. As in the debate in digital vs. analog, I believe that the right combination of warmth and detail is what allows you to get drawn into the music and focus on the performance instead of the "sound effects" that some other gear seems to highlight.

In any case, I believe it's a great video. One of the most enjoyable discussions on audio I've ever not participated in :D. Highly recommended.

Alberto

I just watched a very interesting roundtable on "Deep Listening" (http://philoctetes.org/Past_Programs/Deep_Listening_Why_Audio_Quality_Matters).

It covers a lot of topics that come up here quite often (esp. the SACD issue.)

Since watching it, I've tried to practice "deep listening" which included turning off the lights and, ahem, even the VU meters on the MC501s.

I must say that, despite the great convenience of digital, deep listening in the dark through a turntable was, for whatever reason, a VERY fulfilling and relaxing experience.

I tried deep listening before I had a mostly McIntosh system and, somehow, it never touched me as much as it did with the smooth sound of the McIntosh. As in the debate in digital vs. analog, I believe that the right combination of warmth and detail is what allows you to get drawn into the music and focus on the performance instead of the "sound effects" that some other gear seems to highlight.

In any case, I believe it's a great video. One of the most enjoyable discussions on audio I've ever not participated in :D. Highly recommended.

Alberto

I practice "Deep Listening" daily. :music:

Along with deep listening comes selective listening. As in when I am deep listening and my wife is yelling at me to come help her with something. I have developed quite the notch filter centered around her voice.:music:

Along with deep listening comes selective listening. As in when I am deep listening and my wife is yelling at me to come help her with something. I have developed quite the notch filter centered around her voice.:music:

:huge:

Along with deep listening comes selective listening. As in when I am deep listening and my wife is yelling at me to come help her with something. I have developed quite the notch filter centered around her voice.:music:

I have my own special method:>

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=_O-QqC9yM28

Michael Fremer sent me this link a couple weeks ago.

I'm interested to know what everyone else thought of the turntable sound over the CD sound, even in the video. I was watching using my Mac's internal speakers, and I still noticed quite a difference.

And did they ever resolve the issue with 2 stereo mics into a tape recorder with no mixer? THey might have covered it later, but I did not catch it...

I have my own special method:>

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=_O-QqC9yM28

:lmao:

I have my own special method:>

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=_O-QqC9yM28

:lmao::lmao::lmao:

Michael Fremer sent me this link a couple weeks ago.

I'm interested to know what everyone else thought of the turntable sound over the CD sound, even in the video. I was watching using my Mac's internal speakers, and I still noticed quite a difference.


I noticed it immediately. Night and day. The warmth of vinyl was immediately apparent. But I can see how some people might argue that what we call warm is actually rolled of or just euphonious distortion and that the CD had more detail.

Alberto

I noticed it immediately. Night and day. The warmth of vinyl was immediately apparent. But I can see how some people might argue that what we call warm is actually rolled of or just euphonious distortion and that the CD had more detail.

Alberto

Me too. Obviously, I think that vinyl is better, but I don't hold it against people that like CD's.

I was really tired and taking a break from reviewing for finals when I saw this, and when the turntable came on, I bolted upright and listened....:music:

I noticed it immediately. Night and day. The warmth of vinyl was immediately apparent. But I can see how some people might argue that what we call warm is actually rolled of or just euphonious distortion and that the CD had more detail.

Alberto

Like most, I thought the difference was night and day. I also thought it was more than just warmth. To me the cd had a metallic, sterile sound with a lot of background noise while the vinyl had a rich black background that the music was laid on-top of. Thereby, allowing the vocals to nicely stand out, which is what I would expect from one man sitting playing a guitar.

Also, I thought that that was one of the worst examples of cd that they played but not the worst. Fortunately, that one only got a few seconds of play. To me all the vinyl sounded good but wasn't impressed with the album the audiophile brought. Since a lot of discussion centered around SACD I was disappointed that no SACDs played.

Overall I thought it was a great discussion and I hope that they have similar discussions in the future.

Michael Fremer is totally close-minded when it comes to cds and lukewarm with SACD. Maybe he will relent if high-rez audio via bluray takes off. I must be completely tone deaf but I own a ton of great sounding redbook cds and with the really well engineered ones I find myself immersed, if I can use that phrase, in the music. I have no problem with those who love vinyl but what vinyl I listen to leaves me distracted by all the extraneous noises that are inherent with the medium. I have maybe 20 SACDs and some are great, some are just ok. I'm not sure that I should have reinvested in the SACD medium via my MCD500. The smart money may wait to see what high rez medium sticks to the wall. If it turns out to be bluray, you can bet that MAC will be out in front of it and all of us here on the board will be writing checks.

I attended the Deep Listening seminar. It was a terrific discussion, very enjoyable. Great panel.

I'm not sure that I should have reinvested in the SACD medium via my MCD500.

Gavin.......You didn't really "reinvest" in SACD via the MCD500. You purchased an incredible CD player designed around the amazing ESS Reference Sabre DACs. The dual quad DACs create reference quality Red Book playback, plus provide external inputs to take advantage of those superb DACs with external sources. That is the meat and potatoes of the meal. SACD playback is the chef's complimentary connoisseurs gourmet creme brulee. It's a perfect conclusion to an awesome feast. The Grand Marnier is optional. :D

Alberto,
Great video and conversation. Makes me miss living in NYC with events like that. Interesting also, to hear them discuss Avalon by Roxy Music. I'd be very interested in what they would think of the remastered 5.1 SACD from a few years ago in comparison to the early redbook CD. Sad to see the sponsoring organization was heavily invested with Madoff.

Alberto,
Great video and conversation. Makes me miss living in NYC with events like that. Interesting also, to hear them discuss Avalon by Roxy Music. I'd be very interested in what they would think of the remastered 5.1 SACD from a few years ago in comparison to the early redbook CD. Sad to see the sponsoring organization was heavily invested with Madoff.

Glad you enjoyed it.

Sad to see the sponsoring organization was heavily invested with Madoff.

Darn. I seem to be the only person who did not have money with this guy. Quite unbelievable...

Alberto

Gavin.......You didn't really "reinvest" in SACD via the MCD500. You purchased an incredible CD player designed around the amazing ESS Reference Sabre DACs. The dual quad DACs create reference quality Red Book playback, plus provide external inputs to take advantage of those superb DACs with external sources. That is the meat and potatoes of the meal. SACD playback is the chef's complimentary connoisseurs gourmet creme brulee. It's a perfect conclusion to an awesome feast. The Grand Marnier is optional. :D

Grand Mariner is hardly optional - in a margarita or otherwise! :)

Gavin.......You didn't really "reinvest" in SACD via the MCD500. You purchased an incredible CD player designed around the amazing ESS Reference Sabre DACs. The dual quad DACs create reference quality Red Book playback, plus provide external inputs to take advantage of those superb DACs with external sources. That is the meat and potatoes of the meal. SACD playback is the chef's complimentary connoisseurs gourmet creme brulee. It's a perfect conclusion to an awesome feast. The Grand Marnier is optional. :D

Hey Dan,

You are correct in that the dacs are outstanding. Not sure about the transport just yet as I have several cds that won't play...the jury is out. The sound is the payoff, especially redbook. My comments regarding the sacd medium stand however. It's a format not worth investing in unless you listen to a lot of classical music. SACD and dvdaudio did however, open the consumer eye to high rez audio but it looks like neither will be the last one standing.

Gavin

I find it interesting when reading the panels credentials, they are very impressive until it gets to Michael Fremer, where all it says is "editor". The fellow is no spring chicken, what did he do before being an editor? nothing audio or music related I suppose....

I have the entire catalog of Roxy Music remastered in HDCD and it sounds pretty damn good to me:thmbsp:

I've heard quite a few systems with digital front ends that lack any trace of "digital hardness", are VERY rythymic and can be listened to for hours.

I have still "yet" to hear a TT rig that even remotely approaches digital regarding retrieval/reproduction of low level detail....room ambience, fingers sliding on strings, subtle tonal shades, etc... all of which imo create a more lifelike "you are there" listening experience.

Great post Alberto! I really enjoyed it. :yes: I've noticed many times that a well setup analog rig draws me deeper into the music and I stop listening to sound and start listening to music instead. The MCD/MDA combo also has that effect on me but it really depends on the recording and it has to be music I enjoy to begin with. Every time I listen to an analog rig over my friends house, even if the music is not familiar or not quite to my taste, I still find myself listening deeper or being more drawn in.

Great post Alberto! I really enjoyed it. :yes: I've noticed many times that a well setup analog rig draws me deeper into the music and I stop listening to sound and start listening to music instead. The MCD/MDA combo also has that effect on me but it really depends on the recording and it has to be music I enjoy to begin with. Every time I listen to an analog rig over my friends house, even if the music is not familiar or not quite to my taste, I still find myself listening deeper or being more drawn in.

Get ready to be sucked into the Black Hole when you visit... :D

Get ready to be sucked into the Black Hole when you visit... :D

You should get the MT10 hooked up to your system! You never know, you may like it! :music:

You should get the MT10 hooked up to your system! You never know, you may like it! :music:

I'll give it a try. :yes:

I find it interesting when reading the panels credentials, they are very impressive until it gets to Michael Fremer, where all it says is "editor". The follow is no spring chicken, what did he do before being an editor? nothing audio or music related I suppose....

Fremer is a very controversial guy and that's likely why Stereophile keeps him around. If you visit the S'phile website, specifically the rants and raves forum, you will see threads that show a very unattractive side of MF. He is totally sold out to vinyl and, as I recall, tube amplification and resorts to name calling in defending his views. He has no wiggle room at all for digital. The other panel members, the producers and engineers caved in and really didn't seem to be totally honest regarding their true positions regarding digital recording. MF was so biased and pushy in expressing his opinions they seemed to just go along. It was an interesting discussion and I learned a lot but Fremer's contributions had nothing to do with it. The cd vs. the vinyl with the Chris Whitley(?) song seemed like a set up to me. That cd sounded bad and the 45rpm album had such warmth in comparison, I'm sure a show of hands would have confirmed which was best accepted by the group. Sad though because you can have resolution of detail and still have "warm" non-fatiguing sound but that would not have perpetuated MF's position. I exchanged emails with MF several years ago when he bashed Julian Hirsch in one of his columns after Mr. Hirsch had passed away. I thought it was in very poor taste and I said so and as I recall MF didn't come across apologetic at all. I'm not a Fremer fan as you may have guessed. So much for distractions. I am now turning up the volume on my 501s...a much more acceptable distraction.

I'll give it a try. :yes:

Give us the "heads up" if you do happen to like it, I'd like to grab some LPs before you completely deplete all stock everywhere... :D

Interesting about the "convenience factor" in the discussion - it's not like convenience is something new. I recall, about 40 years ago, my dad's Garrard turntable with the "stack & drop" spindle. Those were quite common back then, and my folks used it for parties all the time. BTW, I remember my dad once (maybe 15 years ago) mention how the LPs doubled as frisbees after a couple kegs...:smoke:

Most of my time with the music is as a background, and the Apple Lossless with the playlists is great. The thing about vinyl I think they missed (unless I missed them saying it!) is that you need to pay attention to it because you have only about 20 minutes/side. That forces greater attention, and contributes to the concentration factor. Doesn't change the fact I like vinyl, but like each individual source, it fits a niche.

Give us the "heads up" if you do happen to like it, I'd like to grab some LPs before you completely deplete all stock everywhere... :D

:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

:yes::yes:to ROXY lovers...the quality of production on CD and HDCD is world class....When I first played BOYS and GIRLS...I could not believe how overwhelmed I was....twas the second CD played on my rig and needless to say, I was both sold and broke at the same moment.....I've compared MOFI CD and MOFI VINYL and am disillusioned wth the extraneous distraction of vinyl "residue" or as I like to call it.."RESIDOUCHE".....just spoiled by the predictability and lack of fuss being IMMERSED in digital....that being said...my wife uses our CLEARAUDIO STATEMENT as a planter..LOL,LOL,:D:D....just jokin here on a quiet Monday in paradise...no TT in house......HAPPY NEW YEAR to all

. Every time I listen to an analog rig over my friends house, even if the music is not familiar or not quite to my taste, I still find myself listening deeper or being more drawn in.

I've been thinking about this comment. Would that be partially due to the fact it is somebody elses? A different environment sometimes changes the same experience. You know like how sometimes the same sandwich tastes better when someone else makes it?

I've been thinking about this comment. Would that be partially due to the fact it is somebody elses? A different environment sometimes changes the same experience. You know like how sometimes the same sandwich tastes better when someone else makes it?Probably not, he has a very nice digital front end as well. :scratch2:

This was awesome to listen too.

I like how it drifted between the nuts and bolts of music to the emotion of music. It almost felt like how scientists are always trying to get back to the big bang, the moment of creation, and the intent of creation, with telescopes and satellites, and how they made the analogy of trying to get back to the moment of "creation" of the music. I really enjoyed them talking about they would possibly record "Round About Midnight" if it was or could be done today.

These guys live the business, and I will take their word that SACD gets close to the Master Tape. I loved playing in a band, and I hope that some of you had that opportunity. The emotion and joy of the moment of bringing a song into existence and everyone getting it "right" is a feeling that is amazing. When that moment happens, it's amazing.


Technology trying to capture magic.

Mark

based on master lu's new avatar I went on Rhapsody and selected Jazzmasters V and I am listening to the album now.

based on master lu's new avatar I went on Rhapsody and selected Jazzmasters V and I am listening to the album now.

Good Choice! :thmbsp:

BTW, are her legs long or what? :scratch2:

BTW, are her legs long or what? :scratch2:

They are not that long in real life. They have been digitally re-mastered.

They are not that long in real life. They have been digitally re-mastered.

:thmbsp:

They are not that long in real life. They have been digitally re-mastered.

Hmm.....I wonder if that would work for me? :D

Hmm.....I wonder if that would work for me? :D

I've tried. Not on legs. Works great until showtime. :P

Michael Fremer is totally close-minded when it comes to cds and lukewarm with SACD. Maybe he will relent if high-rez audio via bluray takes off. I must be completely tone deaf but I own a ton of great sounding redbook cds and with the really well engineered ones I find myself immersed, if I can use that phrase, in the music. I have no problem with those who love vinyl but what vinyl I listen to leaves me distracted by all the extraneous noises that are inherent with the medium. I have maybe 20 SACDs and some are great, some are just ok. I'm not sure that I should have reinvested in the SACD medium via my MCD500. The smart money may wait to see what high rez medium sticks to the wall. If it turns out to be bluray, you can bet that MAC will be out in front of it and all of us here on the board will be writing checks.

I guess that comes out a bit in the manner in which he writes, but I had a chance to talk with him (and Wes Phillips) at length some months ago at a dealer event locally and he was pretty open about his main gripe being the poor quality of so many of the digital recordings released. He is truly an analog freak, loves to tinker with turntables. But he, like so many others, is just disappointed that the promise of digital has fallen short mainly because of marketing considerations (compressed program material to be louder on radio). For full disclosure, I am firmly in the digital camp. I think when done well digital clearly trumps analog ( my opinion based on the reasons below, not meant as an opening salvo in other analog vs digital war of words!). No matter how good the analog recording I just can't get past the surface noise and pops and ticks. For whatever reason I just seem to have always been very sensitive to that. My best guess why is that it probably interrupts my concentration when listening. Now, that being said, I'll be the first to admit that I have more CDs that sound like crap than I do ones that are golden listening experiences. I wish all CDs were mastered by JVC as XRCDs, that would solve a lot of the problems. Maybe even bring about world peace. :D

:yes::yes:to ROXY lovers...the quality of production on CD and HDCD is world class....When I first played BOYS and GIRLS...I could not believe how overwhelmed I was....twas the second CD played on my rig and needless to say, I was both sold and broke at the same moment.....I've compared MOFI CD and MOFI VINYL and am disillusioned wth the extraneous distraction of vinyl "residue" or as I like to call it.."RESIDOUCHE".....just spoiled by the predictability and lack of fuss being IMMERSED in digital....that being said...my wife uses our CLEARAUDIO STATEMENT as a planter..LOL,LOL,:D:D....just jokin here on a quiet Monday in paradise...no TT in house......HAPPY NEW YEAR to all




"The Bogus Man" (off For Your Pleasure...) is AWESOME!!!

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x116/srg1957/RoxyMusic-ForYourPleasure.jpg

I love cranking this tune ...and I think my neighbors must like it too because the men in the clean white coats have yet to come and take me awaaaaaayyyy!!!!:thmbsp:

http://www.buckeye1975.com/Memory%20Lane/TheGhoul222.jpg

BTW, are her legs long or what? :scratch2:

she's on tip toes and her heels aren't touching the ground.

Does this come in vinyl?:drool:

Thanks Alberto for this link. Finally watched it in its entirety. (long!) I almost killed the connection during the second to last question person who was taking wayyy too long..... :boring:

I have to admit the first version of Tambourine Man sounded better on these laptop speakers...

Thanks for the link, Alberto. Great conversation, though it took me three sessions to get through the whole thing and without the holiday time off, I would have never got through it all. The video brings up a bunch of topics worth thinking about.

As I watched, i purchased, on line, three of the recordings they used for demonstration. For the Miles Davis "'Round About Midnight" I found a Speakers Corner (Columbia) LP and the SACD. I chose the SACD because I have not been to happy with the quality of the Speakers Corner LPs I a purchase recently.

I like to listen in a dark room with eyes closed - been doing that for about 30 years and some people at the Symphony may think I am sleeping through the concert, but I'm not.

About 15 years ago, I read an idea (forgot who wrote it) in a long-gone magazine called "Fi" that interpreting what you see (vision) requires a lot of processing power (the author used a computer analogy) and when you close your eyes, all (are a lot of) that processing power immediately switches over to processing what you hear. Or to put it not in terms of computers, it is a lot easier to pay attention to what you are hearing when you are not distracted by what you are seeing..

You can try this at anytime, just close your eyes and see if you don't notice hearing a whole bunch of stuff around you that you did not notice before you closed your eyes.

Also, if you are trying to listen into the acoustic space that's on a recording, as was discussed in the video, that is easier to do when you are not looking at the room your are actually in.

At the SF symphony, one of the things that becomes more apparent, especially during quiet passages, is all the coughing, hacking, chair squeaking and program dropping going on all the time. This is similar to a fairly scratched record. Most of my records beat live classical music in this respect.

For the record, my biases tend toward LPs and high-res digital. The digital vs analog argument has been going in since digitally mastered LPs showed up a couple of years before CDs. After 35 years, LPs are still hanging in there - there must be a reason.

I would first like to apologize. I come from the generation that wants convenience over quality. I have never in my life, save before I cued my first record some six months ago, actually sat and listened to music. I, like many people my age, listened to music while doing other things; browsing the web, cleaning, driving. I feel like in the past 21 years of my life, I have added to the demand for music that is simply crap. However, I am glad to see the reemergence of vinyl, albeit some of the cuts are awful.

Like they talked about, there is something about vinyl that grabs your attention and forces you to experience the music, instead of simply hearing it. I've experienced this first hand and I've never looked back. The quality of recordings are something I never gave a second thought about. I recently got a copy of Johnny Cash's "American IV: The Man Comes Around". You can tell that it was recorded at his home, as he was ill at the time. There are pictures on the album of his "studio" which is just some rugs hung around his mic. The quality is not the greatest, but you feel like you are there with him, watching him create art. I love that album.

Just picked up a few new cd's yesterday :
Herbie Hancock-River
Chris Botti-When I Fall In Love
Chris Botti-Italia
Renee Olstead- Renee Olstead
Shelby Lynne- Just A Little Lovin

I have my own special method:>

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=_O-QqC9yM28

Oh my god!!! That is priceless.. what a treat on NY day... Thanks Ivan...:D:D:D

Oh my god!!! That is priceless.. what a treat on NY day... Thanks Ivan...:D:D:D

Glad you liked it! ;)

Alberto,

Thanks for the heads-up. I finally finished watching the video (it took me a few sessions; long video). It was great to hear the insight from the various sides of the recording (and listening) industry. When listening to analog & digital on my home system, I can tell the difference between the two. When listening to their video thru my puny computer speakers, it wasn't a fair listening session between analog & digital.

I think I would have placed the mics on these panel folks somewhere other than their chest (the collar should work). As passionate as these folks were about the discussion topic, their body language was frequent pounding of the chest (coming from the heart), hence, pounding the mic. They mentioned a/d conversion, but I don't remember them mentioning d/a conversion. Or maybe they mentioned it during the part of the video where I wasn't 'deep listening'. :D

The "nugget" I took away from it was that every piece of music truly requires a certain volume level to maximize its affect on our mind/body. Since then, using my remote, I have been noticing just how true is this statement!

When you hit that "sweet spot," not too loud, not too soft, just right -- one FEELS it. Put down the remote, close the eyes, and listen. :music:

The "nugget" I took away from it was that every piece of music truly requires a certain volume level to maximize its affect on our mind/body. Since then, using my remote, I have been noticing just how true is this statement!

When you hit that "sweet spot," not too loud, not too soft, just right -- one FEELS it. Put down the remote, close the eyes, and listen. :music:

I'll agree with that, some music just demands to be played LOUD! :banana: Whilst some hits its own at a much lower volume.

I'll agree with that, some music just demands to be played LOUD! :banana:

+1 :yes: