Hello All I have been looking at buying a mc252 - I have heard wonderful things about this amp - I have not been able to find one but have found a MC352. I dont want to go to the dealer as I dont want to be the guy that takes up his time and uses his gear just to buy eleswhere.

My question for you is - is the 352 just as good as the 252 with the benifit of an additional 100 watts? I have heard some people say that the mc252 & MC402 are the better amps and the mc352 is missing a little something.

Any input would be appreciated.

wstandis.......I have auditioned the MC402 several times, and I own a MC352, and a pair of MC501 amplifiers. The MC352 is in the MC402, and MC501 league more so than the MC252. Actually, the MC402 is essentially the MC352 with slightly higher output, and a 3D front glass panel. My MC352 is used in a recording studio, and I can tell you without reservation, it is a fantastic, detailed, powerful amplifier. It puts out more than 350 watts per channel, typically 400 watts. It is a completely balanced amplifier. The MC252 is not a balanced amplifier. Every safety feature that the MC402, and MC501 amplifiers employ is in the MC352. I don't know who has been misdirecting you, but the MC352 gives up nothing, and sounds fabulous.

In no way am I discrediting the MC252. There are plenty of very happy owners of that amplifier on this forum, and I am certain they will chime in.

Were I planning to purchase another solid state stereo amplifier, it would be the MC352 over the MC252, and over the MC402. There are still brand new MC352 amplifiers available (new old stock) at very attractive prices, with a full three year warranty. It's the way to go. That's my two cents worth.

wstandis.......I have auditioned the MC402 several times, and I own a MC352, and a pair of MC501 amplifiers. The MC352 is in the MC402, and MC501 league more so than the MC252. Actually, the MC402 is essentially the MC352 with slightly higher output, and a 3D front glass panel. My MC352 is used in a recording studio, and I can tell you without reservation, it is a fantastic, detailed, powerful amplifier. It puts out more than 350 watts per channel, typically 400 watts. It is a completely balanced amplifier. The MC252 is not a balanced amplifier. Every safety feature that the MC402, and MC501 amplifiers employ is in the MC352. I don't know who has been misdirecting you, but the MC352 gives up nothing, and sounds fabulous.

In no way am I discrediting the MC252. There are plenty of very happy owners of that amplifier on this forum, and I am certain they will chime in.

Were I planning to purchase another solid state stereo amplifier, it would be the MC352 over the MC252, and over the MC402. There are still brand new MC352 amplifiers available (new old stock) at very attractive prices, with a full three year warranty. It's the way to go. That's my two cents worth.


Ditto. The MC352 is a great amp. Everything Dan has said is, correct as to where the 352's design fits into the lineup. I haven't owned one, but had auditioned the 352 and can attest that it is a great amp.

As an added plus, I'm pretty sure there is an LED kit available for the MC352. Contact Ryan Kilpatrick at Audio Classics for details. On AK, he is audioclassics1.


Good luck!


Pete

Ditto. The MC352 is a great amp.
I'm pretty sure there is an LED kit available for the MC352. Good luck!

Pete

Pete.......You are correct. Audio Classics has the LED kit for the MC352. I ordered one, and in less than an hour had it installed and looking great. They have (NOS) MC352 amps, too, and can install the LED kit for you. Both my C2200 preamp, and my MC352 amplifier were purchase new old stock for AC, with a full three year warranty. Great folks. I highly recommend them. :thmbsp:

MC352 is the best bang for the buck.

Pete.......You are correct. Audio Classics has the LED kit for the MC352. I ordered one, and in less than an hour had it installed and looking great. They have (NOS) MC352 amps, too, and can install the LED kit for you. Both my C2200 preamp, and my MC352 amplifier were purchase new old stock for AC, with a full three year warranty. Great folks. I highly recommend them. :thmbsp:

Yep....

Dan, you need to get to Vestal one day and visit AC, and of course McPlant!
AC is the worlds greatest toy store! :yes: When at AC, be sure and sign one of the doors...

AC is located in what is very much my old stomping ground, not at all far from the house I grew up in.

Pete

I did a careful A/B audition between the 352 and 402 at AC into my Spendors, with my cable (Neutral Reference), etc. I heard not one iota of sonic difference. Personally, I actually preferred the more classic look of the 352 as well. Had AC install the LED kit (along with the NOS 2200).

Done. :D

I own the 352, and I can tell you it isn't missing anything musically. It is a great sounding amp, and I would suggest it to anyone looking for a great amp at a good price.

Call the guys at AC they will hook you right up.

Pete.......I would thoroughly enjoy a trip to Audio Classics, and the Mcintosh tour. My problem is I have quite a few irons in the fire on any given day, and NY isn't exactly just around the corner from here. A trip there would be at least a three day event, one day up, a day there, and one day back. Trying to get three consecutive week days available for a trip to NY is almost impossible. I'll eventually make it, but it will probably be in conjunction with something else requiring me to go North, not to mention my 40° cutoff rule.

Pete.......I would thoroughly enjoy a trip to Audio Classics, and the Mcintosh tour. My problem is I have quite a few irons in the fire on any given day, and NY isn't exactly just around the corner from here. A trip there would be at least a three day event, one day up, a day there, and one day back. Trying to get three consecutive week days available for a trip to NY is almost impossible. I'll eventually make it, but it will probably be in conjunction with something else requiring me to go North, not to mention my 40° cutoff rule.

The first thing you need to do, Dan is (temporarily) disconnect that umbilical between you and your laptop (whose homepage is undoubtedly AK/McIntosh forum!) :D:D

Then, if possible, you need to tear yourself away from your McIntosh gear! Now Dan, I know this is difficult, but it can be done! Trust me, I've even done it a few times! :yes:

Actually, you probably need more than three days. Five is more like it...(two days travel, three days enjoyment. Fly, of course). If you like Italian food, you'll also need to have dinner one night at the Little Venice....HmmmmmmmHmmmmmmm!!!!

(There is another excuse right there!)

And oh yes, I do recommend making the trip in the summertime. :yes:

Pete

Pete.......I do like Italian food. I'll put that restaurant name in my phone......just in case I do make it up there. Thanks.

And oh yes, I do recommend making the trip in the summertime. :yes:

Pete

Hi Pete,

Pardon me for asking, when is Summertime over at AC? Temperature?

Cheers! :banana:

Hi Pete,

Pardon me for asking, when is Summertime over at AC? Temperature?

Cheers! :banana:

Jerry,

I consider the summer season there to be June through September. The winters there are long and brutal. When I was growing up there, I remember at least one occasion when we had a snowstorm in May. I still recall a picture on the front page of the newspaper where someone had scribed the date 5-17 in the snow on the hood of a car.

In the summer, it is warm, with temperatures reaching high 80's and occassionally low nineties in July and August.

By the end of September, things begin to cool down, especially at night. It really is a beautiful part of the country, but if cold bothers you, stay away during winter.

Pete

I forgot to mention that I owned a Mc352 too. I now moved up to Mc602, driving my surround speakers. :)

Hi Pete,

Pardon me for asking, when is Summertime over at AC? Temperature?

Cheers! :banana:

It looks like this. :D

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=131886&d=1233033216

I looks like this. :D

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=131886&d=1233033216

Yes, that's why I don't recommend going there this time of year...I pity my brother and sister, who still live there. I fled...er, I mean, I moved to Florida in October 1979, before I had to face another winter!! :yikes:

Pete

P.S. Those temps are actually quite a bit warmer than they were a few days ago....

Pete.......I can see ET pointing his green tipped finger toward the north and saying.......Pete, home........Pete, home. :lmao:

I looks like this. :D

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=131886&d=1233033216

Brrrr....that is bone-chilling :yes:

........especially from a guy in Paradise :D

now back on subject...go for the 352's....Dan makes a very valid point about it being a "balanced amp" :thmbsp:

Pete.......I can see ET pointing his green tipped finger toward the north and saying.......Pete, home........Pete, home. :lmao:

....and I can hear Pete saying, no....no!!!

Pete

IT's cold... damn cold up here! And we are expecting another foot of snow tonight! But the good part is that when the snow falls, it is MUCH less of a crowd to do errands! :thmbsp:

We ALWAYS welcome anyone to Audio Classics. Simply let me know ahead of time and I will set up a tour at the factory and then some fun here at Audio Classics afterwords. I have done the tour more times than I could ever count and I am still not bored of it! So anyone is welcome to come out and have some McIntosh fun! Just wait until April or you will be trapped here under all of the snow!!

Just wait until April or you will be trapped here under all of the snow!!

Not a bad place to be stuck at.

Not a bad place to be stuck at.

Believe me when I say...you can freeze your hiney off in the good old "Southern Tier"!! :D

Pete

It looks like this. :D

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=131886&d=1233033216

Oh, if this is in degrees "C", its nice as this IS the kinda weather I am used to very comfortably. BUT if this is in "F", then it will certainly be VERY cold.:no:

Well, Pete, cold does not bother me, but extreme coldness does, especially if I am traveling with my children. For sure the coming on a company biz ticket is extremely remote given the current economic climate where almost all travels are on a freeze!:yes:

Anyway, thanks to all the nice advises. At least, I know what is "Summertime" period and the expected norm temperature.

Cheers! :banana:

This is warmer than it has been. The past two weeks we have been below 0 degrees F. Fall is the nicest time of year here. Summer gets humid but at least we can be outside! But the nice part is we never have hurricanes, no Tsunamis, extremely rare to have tornadoes, some flooding but it is rare to have horrible flooding. Overall, a pretty safe place to live....and listen to music! :music:

This is warmer than it has been. The past two weeks we have been below 0 degrees F. Fall is the nicest time of year here. Summer gets humid but at least we can be outside! But the nice part is we never have hurricanes, no Tsunamis, extremely rare to have tornadoes, some flooding but it is rare to have horrible flooding. Overall, a pretty safe place to live....and listen to music! :music:

It really is a nice place, aside from the extreme cold in the winter. I love my visits there...and even after 30 years of living in Florida, I still get homesick for the area, and for my family and friends who still live there.

I even miss the snow at times...but not the prolonged cold with zero and subzero temps!

Pete

"I think the 252 is a 501 in disguise, same design/guts and parts, just half current and 2ch....the sound gives that away. And Mc says so. "

I came across this on the audiogon forum, are these comments true ?

"i think the 252 is a 501 in disguise, same design/guts and parts, just half current and 2ch....the sound gives that away. And mc says so. "

i came across this on the audiogon forum, are these comments true ?

No.

No.

Well....at least you didn't say it in all large caps. :smoke:

No.

Us MC252 owner's are hoping otherwise. :smoke:

'cisco.......It just amazes me that with all the information that is available to anyone who will just take the time to do some simple research, there are still individuals who make unsubstantiated statements as if it was the truth. That bull might carry some weight with the boys on the corner, but it demonstrates a certain lack of intellegence here.

Us MC252 owner's are hoping otherwise. :smoke:

US Blues.......The MC252 is a very fine amplifier, period. Anyone who says different has simply not heard it. It has plenty of power, has the gorgeous McIntosh sound, is built like a tank, has all the traditional McIntosh protection features, and looks spectacular.

No disrespect intended, but the MC252 is not a MC501, nor is it even half of a 501 as the poster tried to state. The MC252 is still a damn good amplifier, worthy of all the praise and respect it has received through the years. There's a bunch of them rocking a lot of houses everyday.

Looking at the similarities in the size of the 252 and 501 (same size), mono output both are 500watts it is only natural that one might ask the question. Also I have never seen anyone write about actually comparing the 252 amp used mono at 500 watts with the 501 in a actual A/B test and until that happens, the question will continue to be asked. Most of the stuff written about this debate is written by people who have simply traded from the 252 to the 501's without ever really listening to the 2 in a A/B test. Simply asking if anyone has looked and listened to both amps. is not really lack of intellegence, more like wishful thinking :) . Looking at the spec. sheet I only see a few differences: damping factor and signal to noise. I was surprised that for signal to noise using rca on the 501 gives you 97 db compared to 112 on the 252 using unbalanced; in other words the 501 S/N unbalanced is not as good as the 252 unbalanced according to the spec sheet on the Mcintosh web site. Therefore once having the 501's it is important to use balanced cables to get the S/N to 124 db. One advantage of having a common ground ie not quad balanced amp. is in using a speaker switch to run a whole house system which would cause a hum or shut down with a quad balance design and speaker switch. Also to take advantage of the increased S/N of the quad balanced amp you need to have a true balanced source and pre amp. The damping factor for the 252 just says greater then 40 but does not report a actual number like 100 for the 501. This kind of reporting is like saying my car can go over 40 miles an hour but does not say how fast it can actually go. I wish ron would clarify a few things and put this debate to rest .

:lurk:

US Blues.......The MC252 is a very fine amplifier, period. Anyone who says different has simply not heard it. It has plenty of power, has the gorgeous McIntosh sound, is built like a tank, has all the traditional McIntosh protection features, and looks spectacular.

No disrespect intended, but the MC252 is not a MC501, nor is it even half of a 501 as the poster tried to state. The MC252 is still a damn good amplifier, worthy of all the praise and respect it has received through the years. There's a bunch of them rocking a lot of houses everyday.

Dan... it is hard to convey humorous intent over the 'net. I know that there are significant design differences between the two. I have the fortune of hearing the 501's regularly in a friends system and recognize the family resemblance they share with my MC252, and also recognize the clear sonic differences.

Me, I'm still saving my shekels for an MCD500. :thmbsp:

I personally think few people, if any, would be able to tell the 252, 352, 402 or 501 apart with eyes closed. I've read from respectable authorities the 501 is actually the least neutral of the lot. It's punchier sounding, which some people may prefer.

I think few people if anyone would be able to tell the 252, 352, 402 or 501 apart with eyes closed.

I must be one of those fortunate ones.... :scratch2:

I personally think few people. if any, would be able to tell the 252, 352, 402 or 501 apart with eyes closed. I've read from respectable authorities the 501 is actually the least neutral of the lot. It's punchier sounding, which some people may prefer.

ctiger2.......There certainly are some contridictions in your post. In one breath you say you think few people can tell all those amps apart, and in the next breath proceed to say the 501 is the least "neutral", and "punchier" sounding. So which is it? :scratch2:

Please explain what "neutral" means. Is it some kind of reference point? The simple fact is, the only thing that sounds like real instruments are real instruments. Everything else is just one copy or another.

Just to be clear...

We all do think the 252 is a great amp though, right? It isn't as if we are comparing a donkey to a thoroughbred. I dont think that with amps, Mac makes any dogs. The 252 is very refined, is very powerful, and has a lot in common with the 501. But the 501 is more of everything; more refined, more powerful, and clearly superior in other ways as well. The 252 is a fabulous amp, but the 501 is one of those amps that becomes "legendary."

Ub

ctiger2.......There certainly are some contridictions in your post. In one breath you say you think few people can tell all those amps apart, and in the next breath proceed to say the 501 is the least "neutral", and "punchier" sounding. So which is it? :scratch2

Not a contradiction at all. I do think few people would be able to tell them apart. I said I've read online, from a persons ears I would tend to trust, more than the average bears anyhow, that the 501's are punchier sounding than the 402's. It doesn't mean that any 1 amp is bad at all. They're all excellent choices.

[SH (http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showpost.php?p=3769854&postcount=122)] To me the 501's are slightly tweaked to give a punchy sound. Useless for me, I need neutral with a beautiful midband capture. That is what the MC402 does best.

Please realize that the 501 is what, 100 watts more? Could be a bit more dynamic at a very high level but that is it. The sound difference is due to a different voicing, not the watts. The 402 is the most neutral amp I own. Nothing else would work for me in this case.

That's all. No big deal... :music:

Looking at the similarities in the size of the 252 and 501 (same size), mono output both are 500watts it is only natural that one might ask the question. Also I have never seen anyone write about actually comparing the 252 amp used mono at 500 watts with the 501 in a actual A/B test and until that happens, the question will continue to be asked. Most of the stuff written about this debate is written by people who have simply traded from the 252 to the 501's without ever really listening to the 2 in a A/B test. Simply asking if anyone has looked and listened to both amps. is not really lack of intellegence, more like wishful thinking :) . Looking at the spec. sheet I only see a few differences: damping factor and signal to noise. I was surprised that for signal to noise using rca on the 501 gives you 97 db compared to 112 on the 252 using unbalanced; in other words the 501 S/N unbalanced is not as good as the 252 unbalanced according to the spec sheet on the Mcintosh web site. Therefore once having the 501's it is important to use balanced cables to get the S/N to 124 db. One advantage of having a common ground ie not quad balanced amp. is in using a speaker switch to run a whole house system which would cause a hum or shut down with a quad balance design and speaker switch. Also to take advantage of the increased S/N of the quad balanced amp you need to have a true balanced source and pre amp. The damping factor for the 252 just says greater then 40 but does not report a actual number like 100 for the 501. This kind of reporting is like saying my car can go over 40 miles an hour but does not say how fast it can actually go. I wish ron would clarify a few things and put this debate to rest .

David.......If my post to 'cisco sounded a bit abrasive, it was not my intention. It was after midnight, and my normal pleasent mood may have been running out of steam. It goes like that sometimes. Perhaps I could have used the word knowledge in place of intellegence. That might have eased the burden. Still, the statement you quoted, "I think the 252 is a 501 in disguise, same design/guts and parts, just half current and 2ch....the sound gives that away. And Mc says so." begs to be scrutinized. Fortunately, to the writers credit, the statement begins with "I think". That is probably the most accurate part of the entire sentence. Unfortunately, the writer goes on to say, "same design/guts and parts" which is not the case, and "half current and 2ch" which is quite a design difference, not to mention the MC252's shared power supply. I have to agree with the part of the statement, "the sound gives that away", because the MC501 does sound considerably better to me, and yes, I have A/B auditioned both of these amps side by side. Finally, as if to proof source those various assertions, the statement, "And Mc says so" was offered. OK, I'm game. Show me where McIntosh has made any of those statements relating the MC252 to the MC501, and my humble apology will be quickly offered.

As far as specifications are concerned, if you choose to employ specs as a means to personal satisfaction about your choice of amplifiers, great. I have no problem with that, but specsmanship games can be played all day, and prove absolutely nothing. I have said it before, the MC252 is a GREAT amp. The MC501 is just better, in my opinion. The proof is always in the music.

With all due respect to Steve Hoffman, there may be a problem with that observation. I just don't think that McIntosh is the kind of company that "voices" amps. If I am wrong, I appologize and would love to hear otherwise but I seriously think that McIntosh designs their amps with a "pen and paper" working to achieve the best specs and design possible unlike some other smaller companies out there that will actually build an amp and then go through a voicing process of listening to it over and over again with different caps/resistors in the audio path.

Now, it just so happens that McIntosh amps are very musical and easy on the ears and there are other very good amps out there as well.

IMHO, the difference is not in the voicing as it is in the power supply/current delivery and how the amp interacts with any given speaker. I've heard the 252, 402, 501s and 1201s on a few different speakers, the B&W 800D and 802D, the Totem Winds, Dynaudio and even Quads for the 252 and 501s.

While there is a strong family resemblance, the 1201s had the most control and grip over the woofers on the 800D and 802Ds, the bass was tighter and as a result, less fuller sounding, the overall balance sounded leaner than the 501s or the 402 driving them. Difference in amp voicing? Nope, the difference was in the bass, shifting the system balance. Same observation on the Winds... The Quads actually exhibited less of a difference between the 501s and 252.

Now, the monoblocks, with their dedicated power supplies for each channel will have more current on demand and exhibit better control over the speaker in many listening situations. Can and do they sound more dynamic? Yes, for the reason I just mentioned. Again, not the voicing but the difference in design and capabilities. They also maintain the soundstage during the more complex musical passages, the monoblock amps have an easier time with this as well. No wonder many have observed the fact that with the 501s, the "walls of the room" just disappear.

There is your "punchier" difference. :D With some speakers, the 501s will sound more dynamic. The 1201s can sound even more dynamic but some speaker/room combinations will make the overall balance seem lean as described by the stereophile review of the 1201s.

Now, again, if McIntosh actually uses the boutique components such as Vishay-Roederstein, Black Gate, MIT-Multicap, MusiCaps, etc.. (not to my knowledge) and voices their amps.... I'll retract my statement.

In all reality McIntosh uses mass produced but reliable and well spec'd components that allow them to meet or exceed design parameters and offer reliable service over many years.

I have said it before, the MC252 is a GREAT amp. The MC501 is just better, in my opinion. The proof is always in the music.

It's very subjective, but yes: the MC252 is a great amp which gave me 2 years of musical pleasure. Having said that the 501 is an even better amp -- for my tastes. I traded my MC252 + $2300 for a pair of gently used 501s. If it wasn't for a great oppty to get 501s from a friend (and locally) I'd still be playing the 252 every day.

But would I want to go back (i.e. put $2300 back in my pocket and exchange the 501s for the 252)? Only if you put a gun to my head and a knife to my nether regions and force me to listen to Yanni while watching Rosie O'Donnell strip :D.

So, if you put it $ terms, regardless of how much sense that makes, I guess I value the sound of the 501 at least $2300 over that of the 252.

Furthermore, even without having heard the combination, I would not hesitate to take 2x501s over 2x252s run in mono. Even if it's true that 501s and 252s are basically the same, the bigger meters would seal the deal.

Alberto

But would I want to go back (i.e. put $2300 back in my pocket and exchange the 501s for the 252)? Only if you put a gun to my head and a knife to my nether regions and force me to listen to Yanni while watching Rosie O'Donnell strip :D.

Alberto

:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:
Thanks for lightening things up. I needed a good laugh. Funny stuff, Alberto. :thmbsp:

Just to be clear...

We all do think the 252 is a great amp though, right? It isn't as if we are comparing a donkey to a thoroughbred. I dont think that with amps, Mac makes any dogs. The 252 is very refined, is very powerful, and has a lot in common with the 501. But the 501 is more of everything; more refined, more powerful, and clearly superior in other ways as well. The 252 is a fabulous amp, but the 501 is one of those amps that becomes "legendary."

Ub

Is one feeling like a leveler, or a sharpener? There is always the law of diminishing returns; is that last 5 % huge or negligible? What mood is one in; at the moment do you feel like critically comparing :rant:, or just enjoying the music :music:?

Wasn't this thread originally about 252 vs 352? :scratch2: :D

I agree with Uberbrown when he said
"We all do think the 252 is a great amp though, right? It isn't as if we are comparing a donkey to a thoroughbred. I dont think that with amps, Mac makes any dogs."

I never heard a McIntosh Amp I didn't want to buy.

For me my 352 sounds great,............................. until my ears tell me different, or I just want to buy a replacement. :yes:

Wasn't this thread originally about 252 vs 352? :scratch2: :D

I agree with Uberbrown when he said
"We all do think the 252 is a great amp though, right? It isn't as if we are comparing a donkey to a thoroughbred. I dont think that with amps, Mac makes any dogs."

I never heard a McIntosh Amp I didn't want to buy.

For me my 352 sounds great,............................. until my ears tell me different, or I just want to buy a replacement. :yes:

Time for your second 352 so you can run them mono at 700 watts/channel :yes:

Time for your second 352 so you can run them mono at 700 watts/channel :yes:

David,
That would be 4 big blue meters. :banana:

David,
That would be 4 big blue meters. :banana:

6 big blue meters you have a c2200 right ?