The number one complaint in buying gear online is packing. It has reach epidemic proportions, as more "newbies" try to cash in on internet sales. Here is a packing how to some of the members have come up with:

Packing Reference (www.audiokarma.org/forums/packandship/)

Here is a Marantz 2230 I packed to send to a Ebay winner. Well, this is not the only way to pack a piece of gear, nor is it the only way I pack but you get the idea.

The unit is wrapped in six layers of 1/2" anti-static bubble and placed in a 275# double wall shipping box. The front and back are first covered with 1-1/2" of high density anti-static foam and then 1/2" of Styrofoam. The corners are furthur reinforced with 1-1/2" x 2-1/2" Styrofoam Blocks.

An important part here is to make sure nothing is resting on or can come into contact with the knobs, switches or dials.

Yet even another option on packing. This for a huge Pioneer SX-3900 that is HEAVY ! The styrofoam corner blocks hold the unit securely. The styrofoam strips rest agains the blocks and keep anything from hitting the face. there are way to many nice knobs and switches to have one bent or broken. There are more styrofoam strips to secure the blocks from the other sides and sheets of it to protect the top and bottom of the receiver. Note the box is 275# double wall construction.

I always wrap and enclose any electronic gear in a plastic bag (trash bag, etc.) before securing with outer material to protect units from water damage. Sometimes boxes get left in the rain, used as coffee tables, etc.

My UPS delivery man told me "off the record" to pack anything so it can take a full drop "at least once" from waist-high (approx. 4-ft). About the distance a box can be dropped from the back of a truck to the ground.

When packing manuals or other paper products always put in plastic (see above; ziplock bags work well) and include a stong "stiffener" to keep flat. Do not write "Do Not Bend," on the outside of the package -- for obvious reasons. It's disheartening to receive an original manual crumpled up. Invest in carboard mailers.

Originally posted by Wornears
I always wrap and enclose any electronic gear in a plastic bag (trash bag, etc.) before securing with outer material to protect units


I do the same ! Dust was the reason for me. I got a pair of poorly boxed speakers coated in dust. Big pain in the butt to clean.

So where is the best place to get good boxes for shipping that don't cost a small fortune ?
Wardsweb where do you get the stryofoam inserts like that? Premade or are you making them yourself and or outta what? Same for the double wall boxes??

BTW Great thread !
Army

All my packing comes from a local box manufacturer. These are the guys who supply to all the moving companies and even the boxes U-Haul sells (greatly marked up). Look in your yellow pages under boxes: corrugated & fiber. You are looking for the guys who make the stuff not resale outlets.

I've had very good luck buying used moving boxes. Go to the local van lines storage/main facility. Vans often return with empty boxes in great condition from a move, and they stockpile them -- for a short time. Get friendly with the staff and they can usually let you know when a box return collection has arrived. I've typically bought them for 1/2 retail cost.

Ward good info !

I looked in the yellow pages under boxes. Got four leads just have to check em out for price. Was buying from Uhaul and paying big $$ but I looked into movers since I knew they would have boxes. The obvious escaped me :dammit: :withstpd:

Thanks
Army

Great post!

WW that looks better than anything I've packed or received.

My biggest disappointment so far was Hsu tube subwoofers, came wrapped in ONE LAYER of flimsy cardboard (no cushioning material), and the drivers were packed loose in one carton with an old album between them :eek:.

Fortunately nothing happened to the drivers, and most of the damage to the tubes was cosmetic, but one of them was hit so hard it knocked a port loose!!!

All things considered I think I got lucky.

Pete

I'm also a stickler, very particular about packing methods for most stuff. I'm a BIG FAN of the hard styrofoam board insulation, sold by Home Depot, Lowes and the like. GREAT material. I've never had an item damaged, that was in at least 1 inch thick layer of this stuff..

Of course, by "layer"... I mean FULL 360-degree, all-sides, no holes COVERAGE of the item by the foam board. I basically "brick in" the item with the board sheets, until it CANNOT MOVE in the box.

I tend not to splurge for E-paks, in most cases... I've found, once you "rigidize" a box with styrofoam sheets, and thoroughly tape ALL the seams, edges and corners with a couple layers of packing tape, NOTHING is going to cause it much damage.

Here's an example of my packing, taken by someone who received the enclosed Crown IC150 from me. This is typical of how I've kept MANY things out of trouble...

I am quite fortunate. The boxes and foam padding that airplane parts come in are fantastic, and free to cheap slugs like me. I just go across the street to our supply building. Those guys love me because they don't have to bust up and discard the stuff I take. Win-Win!

Plus, the government replaces my/our computers about every three weeks or so it seems, and there is always a lot of that type material laying in the hallways outside offices. I've been getting some really good boxes that nest inside each other that way lately. Good foams too.

TA

At my school, our IT department has plenty of ex-computer and computer monitor shipping boxes and you know these are all double walled with styrofoam fillers and can handle 25-75 pound contents. They usually throw them out if nobody asks for them. My boys just shipped 50 pounds of LEGO's in one of them (can you believe they got $150 for those legos?) :banana:
These also make good moving and packing boxes because they are pretty big and solid.

So check with large companies with IT departments (big networked companies, hospitals, colleges/universities, anybody who does upgrades). Heck, even try large retail outlets like BestBuy, if the sales guys are friendly, you can get plenty from them out the back door.

I had a pair of big tall subwoofers' original boxes packed then into refrigerator boxes cut to size with a matching top cover box. They were definitely sturdy!!

I've found box sources like clothing stores but they are obviously of lighter build.

Great Thread!

Regards,

Bart

I would like to add something about the use of hard styrafoam panels as packing material. I have received two amps in which the sellers used these panels, with very little more in the way of packing, and in both times the amps have been damaged. I feel that if these panels are used, they must be used together with bubble wrap. First bubble wrap the item numerous times and then, perhaps, use the panels. If panels are not used, something else substantial must be.

The damage that has happened in both cases has been the same. The rear panel of the amps have been pushed in. It seems that when using only the panels, a strong hit to the box is not absorbed by the panels but transferred to the item packed.

Yes, I use both styrofoam and peanuts + 2-3 layers around the deck.:)

Final before sealing the box.
This was a Tascam deck and here is the feedback from the buyer after arrival.:

"Yesterday I received the Teac 2A mixer,Meterbridge, manuals and brochure.

Everything arrived safely due to the excellent packing that you did.

I won't have time to try them out until this weekend, but will let you know how I like them or if I have any questions.

I have been reading through the Tascam 22-4 manual and finding it really helpful.

The Tascam arrived last week.

The packing was really superb as well.

A friend of mine was here when I unpacked it, and he commented that he has never seen anything so well packed."

I like happy messages like that.:)

I do something similar to what Wardsweb did in the first picture, except I first line the box (all six sides) with 1 1/2" or 2" thick white insulation board.

I put the unit inside a clear plastic bag when I finish restoration work, and leave it that way to ship.

Normally I use a 24" x 24" x 10" (or 12" ) box.

I roll up about a 6" roll of large bubble wrap and put a roll on the front and back of receiver, then wrap the entire unit with a couple of layers of large bubble wrap.

Any space between the sides or front get packed with different thicknesses of white insul board. This holds the unit away from the sides of the box (and 2" insul board liner)

Pretty much don't use peanuts anymore. Too much of a mess to work with.

Units over 45 lbs get double boxed too. Seems to be the weight threshold for heavy units. If not double boxed, the heavy units don't survive well.
The unit is packed as described above, then put in another larger box, usually lined with the 2" insul board.

I'm a firm believer in the corner block method shown in Wardswebs second picture. Seems to be about the best way for heavier units (over 30 lbs)

Old carpet padding that smells dogpiss and grit ?:rolleyes:
That's nasty ! :puke: :puke:

I debated whether I should post my opinion, as I knew Id get this kind of responce. Ive deleted the post to prevent futher criticism

I have enough sense to know whats clean and whats not.

Doug

No I think your idea is great ! My brother In law has a carpet company and I can get his thicker/harder foam padding cheaper then I can other types of "real" shipping supplies.

You can bet your bottom dollar I will be experimenting with this stuff. Thanks !!

grumpy

I just got a tip from my UPS driver - they don't drop/toss packages labeled "liquid" because they don't want to clean up a mess.

Pete

I just got a tip from my UPS driver - they don't drop/toss packages labeled "liquid" because they don't want to clean up a mess.

Pete

So he's admiting they DO drop/toss other packages? :scratch2:

How bout if you label it "Explosives" :rofl:

Easy. They won't carry it! No placards on the brown trucks, at least around here.

If you talk to these guys they'll usually come clean.

Things like: automated high-speed conveyors as high as forty feet, boxes dropping of the back of the truck then getting runover, etc, but for us the main issue is just them tossing the stuff on and off the truck, which they'll do right in front of you.

I don't know about explosives but for hazardous mat'l you need to be certified by UPS or they'll blacklist you :yes: !

Pete

Hey the liquid idea is great, hadn't thought of that. Best solution is to number one, not use UPS :thumbsdn: . We've shipped a few thousand packages over the past five years and UPS lost our business EARLY, they simply abuse items, many other shippers concur, ask around. Believe it or not, USPS (the Post Office) didn't damage a THING in about 800 packages, but their fees went way up and we switched to FedEx Ground a couple years ago, our current carrier. Most of our stuff is large or heavy so the PO scored great with those packages :thmbsp: .

For a volume shipper, 'quick and efficient' are both musts, so we always use new boxes bought from a local supplier, we stock tons of sizes. But the U-Haul moving boxes and other stuff is great too. Most important, strength and padding, regardless of what it is. For heavy items, STYROFOAM, in fact UPS refused an electronics damage claim we had once because it was packed in 4" of 1/2" bubble wrap rather than their REQUIRED styrofoam, which incidently wasn't posted ANYWHERE by UPS as a requirement to secure insurance compensation :worried: .

Anyway, now we use very oversized boxes, on heavy items allowing for at least 4" of foam on ALL SIDES (top and bottom), though we've gotten by with as little as 2" on sides for certain items. We first wrap EVERYTHING with 18" pallet wrap, comes in rolls for about $20 that will last most people a couple of years. The pallet wrap seals the entire unit and gives it initial 'rub protection'. It also really helps to strengthen everything, hold cords and wires tight, keeps knobs intact, etc., making it easy to drop into a box. Makes a good impression on the buyer too :smoke: .

Next we load up the bottom of the box with several extra inches of styrofoam peanuts, then jiggle the box to settle them and pack them. We drop the unit in and wiggle it down so it sits several inches above the bottom of the box, the heavier the unit the more inches you need on the bottom. With luck the carrier won't flip the box over and the bottom packing will absorb all the abuse along the way. Center the unit in the box, then pour the peanuts all around the sides. Jiggle the box again to settle them in and pour again, covering the top several inches deep. Remember the carrier or automated distribution centers may flip the box over so the top then becomes the bottom, so pack for it. I've found that the heavier the box the less likely it is to be flipped over. Remember, PEANUTS SETTLE, so don't pack them loosely, otherwise they'll all flow to the sides and bottom and the top will be unprotected, or the unit will shift to one corner or bottom, take a hit, and all is lost :no: .

Do your best to once again jiggle the box before you tape the lid flaps down, then over fill the box slightly with peanuts. You want the lid to fold down snugly, then tape it tightly. Tape ALL the seams of the box, across the center and two of the sides of the flapped ends, PLUS the glued seam on the side corner. On heavier boxes I sometimes even tape EVERY corner seam of the box, to add strength for enroute hits and handling and prevent bursts, and usually lay two or three strips spaced across the top and bottom, sort of like straps, to add extra strength, sort of the same theory of taping windows in a hurricane. I hate to use the term gorrilla proof, but remember your carrier may be on his last week with the company and getting his revenge, it happens :worried: .

Now the thing a lot of shippers give no thought to is the label placement. But I put it EXACTLY where I want the carrier to reference it from, depending on the weight and shape of the box. I want to be sure the bottom stays on the bottom, so on stereo components the label will likely be topside, toward one side, with the label being readable from the side it's toward (not upside down). If the label is flipped around the carrier may stand and store the package on the side so he can read it while packing it in the truck. Label placement is very important.

Some amps are very heavy to one side so that may figure into your packing strategy. It will naturally want to tip or fall to the heavy side, so if it is VERY top heavy and not real wide pack it upside down in the box so the heavy part is always on the bottom. That will prevent flip overs, sort of like the blow-up punching bags that are weighted on the bottom; punch it and it returns upright, heavy side stays down. If the unit is VERY side heavy, either pack the box with that side down, or place the label on that top side so the carrier can rest the heavy side against himself while carrying it and reading the label. If the weight is on the other side he'll drop it as it rolls out of his arms :worried: , then mentally blame you for not packing it well if something is damaged :sigh: . Use more peanuts on that heavy side, because the carrier may well store it in his truck with the heavy side down, regardless of any arrows or 'this side up' instructions you have on the box.

I shipped a vintage boat motor, packed strategically, and had arrows and 'this side up' all over the box. I handed it directly to the driver and the first thing he did was lay it on its side, right in front of me, as he fit it into the layout of his truck. He totally ignored the labels without a thought.

Now all of this seems expensive or otherwise, but if so you have likely never had to handle a damage claim or deal with an angry buyer :worried: . Think 'overkill' when packaging, don't assume you'll have a caring driver; machines do much of the work, drivers get tired and hurried. Besides, a $500 amp deserves good packaging, a small part of the overall price. Be sure to charge enough for shipping so you won't feel you have to cut corners. iShip.com (http://iship.com/priceit/price.asp) is a good source for general price quotes to base your shipping fees on :thmbsp: .

The solid foam boards are a good idea, make sure they're thick enough all the way around. But they can be expensive and timely, and as mentioned transfer shock to the unit, the reason many manufacturers only do the corners. But for speed, cost, and efficiency the earlier method works great. FYI, for lighter items such as cassette decks or CD players, several layers of 1/2" bubble wrap works great, all the way around the unit. We buy 24" wide wrap which is 'perfed' every 12" for tearing pieces off. Usually you can wrap the unit several times with the bubble wrap then fold the ends over and tape them down. If the unit is wider you can tear off a couple extra sections, roll them up, and tape them to the ends of the unit. Then drop it all in the box same as before, making sure it WON'T MOVE AROUND. No movement is critical with any package, if it moves the dynamics can be greatly increased when a box is dropped, creating forces that will overpower your padding :sigh: . Always ask yourself the question, "If I were packing this to ship home to myself, will this be good enough?" :yes:

That was the short version, tune it at 11 for a full report... :thmbsp:

This is how I currently pack. About 3" of insulation board all six sides, and bubble wrap in front and back. Use blocks at corners to hold unit in place.

Don't use peanuts. They compress, and then the unit will move around inside box. Moving around inside box means death to equipment.

I really don't care what the cost is for the 2" foam board. (about $10 a sheet) It is the way to pack. Why do you think the manufactures use it for packing?

Got a tube amplifier from a seller in Canada. I was somewhat paranoid and mentioned bubble wrap, separate boxes for the tubes, etc., that I had "learned" on various forums. He said he hadn't received any complaints so far.

He placed the tubes in white SOCKS (clean!) inside the wooden case in the area where they had been pulled from. The socks filled the case interior.

He then plastic wrapped the amp and boxed it in a box 1-1.5" larger on all sides. The 1-1.5" was filled with 3 layers of (clean) carpet padding. This box was then placed in another larger box with 2 layers of clean carpet padding again.

Canadian post and then USPS. Not a ding/scratch/bent switch or knob. Tubes were intact and it sounds great!

I posted this in another thread. Might be of interest to those who are contemplating shipping items by common carrier. Usually items with a final packaged weight of less than 70 pounds, with L + W + H < 108 inches.
http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=398743#post398743
I will agree with the concept of packaging to withstand a CORNER drop from waist height. :cry:
I've seen pallets of parcels stacked 6' high. Imagine your parcel at the bottom. Under someone's fruitcake from Aunt Martha.
We all know how much fruitcake weighs.
Imagine these guys dancing on your parcel... :banana: :banana: :banana:
When you are the buyer/recipient you have a couple of options.
You can assemble the proper packaging materials and instructions and send them along to the seller/shipper, or you can require the shipper use a shipping and packaging services like the UPS Store. Usually poor packaging, but claims are paid quickly because they packaged it. Also consider the local high end audio retailer that would understand the needs of the item. Recommended for turntables especially. :thmbsp:

Conceptually for packing I like the idea of an outer layer of foam boards or layers of heavy cardboard to protect the contents,(except for prentration damage, how are you going to stop a forklift time, 3/4 inch plywood ???) and a bubble wrap pillow around the (Plastic wrapped)equipment, with a layer of foam board conforming to the equipment, protecting the bubble wrap from equipment induced punctures, ie knobs, corners etc...
(But completely filling the box with bubble wrap can get expensive... )

Unless the equipment has a high mass to volume ratio, then I would double box (foam boards in inner box, filling it to distribute shock evenly), or if it is really MASSIVE, with a fragile case around it... I would BOLT it at the same frame that mounts whatever is heavy into a solid plywood INNER box.

There is no one solution, it depends on how heavy/fragile the object is...

I have used peanuts in the past, packed until the box bulges... no shifting there, thats why I reinforce the outside box.

here is my question..... Who has sent/recieved stuff with carpet padding as protection? Flat ?? Rolled?? etc ???

My reasoning is that peanuts can be crushed (even if very packed) by one of those 4 - 6 foot drops, and a hole in the box lets the peanuts out, but padding protects against that high-g impulse that does the real internal damage, and does not stay crushed during the short term and won't dribble out if in sheet form.

I have done mil spec shock design AND TESTING... (make it/ break it/ try again, and again, and again....) so I have some idea of the parameters.
(when a tank main gun fires... :eek: ..., but then one of those track mounted howitzers.... :yikes:that's intense

I sometimes ship heavy reel to reel decks with 70 lbs weight.
A new sturdy box from U-Haul 24x24x27 cost $ 9.75
Styrofoam panels for the sides and 2 sheets on the bottom of the box.
5 inches of peanuts on top.
Wrap the deck with large bubble-wrap 3-4 times, tape each layer together.
Lay the deck in the center on top of the 5 inches of peanuts.
Use styrofoam blocks in each corner so the deck can't shift in transit.
Fill the sides and top with more peanuts tight, not just toss them in, because they will sink down otherwise.. :no:
After that, cut a large sheet of styrofoam for the top before sealing the box.
Use good packing tape all around the box and seal it really good.
Fragile stickers on each side and top.
Packing slip inside with buyers address info + phone nr. ( Fed Ex and UPS labels get destroyed in transit sometimes.. :thumbsdn:
Insurance is important + pictures of what's inside and of course write down the serial nr if for some reason the package get destroyed or disappear. :)

Just my 2 cents of packing experience. :thmbsp:

Digital cameras... love 'em, no extra cost, lots and lots of pictures, and after it arrives safely, wait a few weeks then delete, very cheap precautions....

When an item approaches the 70-pound limit, yes, it is time to consider crating and palletizing.
Up to 70 lbs and within the set shipping limit of less than 108 inches for L + W + H in inches:
1st layer: waterproof. Hefty bag (don't skimp) lawn and leaf extra heavy gauge.
2nd layer: Snug casing. Bubblewrap at least 3 layers. Box with a minimum 1 inch think styrofoam 'form', minding switches and knobs and little breakable thingies.
3rd layer: 1st cardboard box container, heavy gauge.
4th layer: Styrofoam peanuts. 3-4 inch layer on the bottom of the shipping box. The important thing here is to make certain that you completely fill the shipping container tight with peanuts to avoid shifting of the peanuts allowing the inside box to work it's way to the bottom.
5th layer: shipping box. These really need to be good quality. nuff said.

A note about addressing:
(Print clearly)
NAME
STREET ADDRESS (including apt #)
CITY, STATE ZIP CODE
COUNTRY

Double and triple check the address. Include your return address. Write this information on at least 2 sides of the box. And yes, you need to write the address on the box you just wrapped up inside. I'll wait while you re-open the shipping box...
Be sure you aren't writing on the packing tape, as the ink can be wiped out and the address obliterated. Use a 'SHARPIE' permanent laundry-type marker.
ASK FOR THE INSURANCE. Don't assume it's insured. Don't insure for a value you cannot prove. Get signature upon delivery. Keep receipts FOREVER.

I just updated my pack and ship page to include some examples of things I've shipped.

http://wardsweb.org/packandship/

Regarding peanuts thhey should always be bagged, I use the plastic bags the newspaper comes in. This way they do not shift and the person receiving the package does not have to chase static charged peanuts all over the place.

Rob

I'vegotten a few of those examples on the link Packing 101, so now I just sent that link to someone I won a SX-1050 from and they actually thanked me! :banana: Hope it arrives in better shape than my last one.

John

My latest a Carver A-760x monster amp. High density foam top, bottom, sides and corner caps. First pic so you can see the details and the second with the last piece of foam cut for the top before the lid gets taped shut.

Attached pic

Anyone know where I can get some of that nice closed cell high-density stuff that Wardsweb has in the previous post?

Closed cell foam is kinda expensive, my father in law has a business dealing with foam, etc, and they sell it to furniture manufacturers, boat makers, airline. You can find lots of heavy duty cheap foam around those places.

I find that the styrofoam that is used in shipping Dell computers makes a perfect enclosure for a stereo or reel t reel. Sometimes you have to shape it, but it keeps the unit floating and if you have great cushioning above and below that, it won't break anything. I wrap the unit in wax paper first, then bubble wrap, then put the strofoam enclosures around it. Perfect.

I live close to a UPS "customer center" (not a UPS store). You can have packages shipped to the customer center, in your name. Have the sender mark the package "hold for pick up".

UPS calls me when it get in, and I go pick it up. This is a totally unsupported theory of mine, but I think UPS might treat the package better when they know that they will be handing it you, face to face.

Here's an email from UPS on it:

If the package has not been shipped, UPS offers a Hold for Pickup service free of charge. UPS will deliver your package to the UPS Customer Center and will call the receiver when it arrives. Packages will be made available by 8:30 a.m. on the scheduled delivery day. Hold for Pickup is not an available service at The UPS Store or UPS Air Service Centers.

For each package, the shipper of record must address Hold for Pickup shipments with the receiver's full name, telephone number, name of a contact person, the words "Hold for Pickup" and the full address of the designated UPS Customer Center.

In addition, a UPS Hold for Pickup label must be applied below the address label on the package. Packages not picked up within five business days from the date of arrival will be returned to the shipper. The recipient will be required to provide a government issued photo identification.

For additional information on this service, please refer to the following link:

http://www.ups.com/content/us/en/resources/select/sending/options/hold_pickup.html



Jim

I just updated my pack and ship page to include some examples of things I've shipped.

http://wardsweb.org/packandship/


Wow, thanks. I will be sure to send that to anoyone I purchase from!:tresbon:

Guys, I'm the new Moderator here...I know a little about packing & shipping, being a German & as such, tend to over-engineer everything, I pack everything like it going to go to Timbuktou... If you have any questions or concerns, please feel free to PM me, I'll gtry to get your concerns adressed as soon as possible...-Sandy Geiger

My packing method for amps etc. I first have foam sticking out around the knobs then bubble wrap, site amp on foam, inside a box, then place it in another box with foam, fortunately , limit on box side is australia post, so i couldnt pad up my amp as much but i am pretty sure she will be fine :)

I recently shipped a Yamaha M-80, 55 lb unit. I custom build box around units. Large cardboard laying flat, 1.5" min. styrofoam on card board and under unit(with holes for feet and 1.5" wider and longer than unit), unit wrapped in thin 1/8" white foam to protect from abrasion then placed on styrofoam, styrofoam for sides rear and front should rise 2" above unit's top with the front and rear having open spaces for the protruding parts, and the back should have enough open space to contain the cord bundled and wrapped in the thin foam, then have a sturdy straight edge handy to make fold dents in cardboard as you go, with razor knife cut cardboard outward from corners so it will fold up to make box around all nice and snug, the corners will have enough to flold around as flaps which is where the hot glue gun comes in, fold around all coners and hot glue tight while making sure packing is all snug, place a few pieces of cardboard on top of unit to protect the breather slots from denting and use styrofoam only around the perimiter of the top of unit on that cardboard, now with knife cut in the corners up from the top of packing to make the box top flaps so 1st set meets in the middle and the second set completely overlap eachother, fold in 1st two then hotglue 3rd flap to completely cover the top, then fold down and hotglue the 4th to completely cover the top also, the top will now effectively have 3 layers of cardboard strength. Unit is snug and protected. Place that packed unit in a box at least 3" larger in all directions and fill the space with peanuts, and all corners should have 3" sturdy foam V blocks(you can custom make blocks by hot glueing styrofoam pieces together to meet your needs). You will need a large supply of glue sticks, they are invaluble and the cheapest will do. The custom cutting of foam can be done easily with an electric meat carving knife commonly found at thrift stores for $2-4. By hotglueing the box flaps closed and taping the outside makes for a very rigid build. You can hot glue corner reinforcements inside box for added strength.

I shipped the C-80 and T-80 together in a seperate box(lighter weight each), each wrapped in thin foam, then placed together top to top with piece of cardboard between, then packing tape around middle/circumfrence to keep aligned, then tape around sides/back several wraps to hold tight together(no tape around front/back so no pressure on protruding controls or connectors), then custom box and into second box in same steps as done for the above unit(M-80). When I was done and test bounced them, I was satisfied they could've survived a one story drop. But there is always a chance internal parts could fracture(PC boards) or parts break loose. If interior protection is really needed, remove cover from unit, lay in several plastic shopping bags and overfill bags with canned expanding foam isulllation and press down with cardboard so it form fits inside and level with top, alow to cool and become solid/breath out cureing fumes, then reinstall cover and apply note alerting recipient to open and remove before powering up the unit.

Feed back from the last unit I shipped, a Kenwood KM-993 amp: O boy supper nice. and packed to beat all. me very happy. thank you.

Packing well gives peace of mind and a great feeling when report is good. Next time I use this technique for packing I'll take pics n post em'.

Good luck understanding all that, Duguana

PS: I've received several pieces damaged that I purchased through ebay, some even after I pleaded for good packing and they assured me they would. The handling/shipping company handled them rough but they would've been ok with proper packing. When many layers of bubble wrap are used, the corners of units just pop the bubbles when jostled thus rendering the bubble wrap useless and the unit can shift around more and pop more bubbles etc. One that I recieved actually had smashed in rear corner so bad the metal cover was torn some and guts all broken loose, PC board cracks, it was shipped together with another unit and poorly packed so they beat eachother silly. I repaired the unit (Pioneer CT-M5R multi cassette changer)myself first then once it was up and running for a few days without trouble I contacted seller and requested phone comunication, provided photos of repair process through personal email as proof. Seller refunded all shipping costs and agreed to pack with more care in the future(yeah right). The unit it came with was a Pioneer PD-M430 6CD player which worked fine but ended up with some dings. Pics of CT-M5R. I jumpered the PC board crack. I always prefer to try to repair first than to have to hassel with an insurance claim, so far I've saved all.

Do you trust any of the major commercial shippers to (a) have the specific materials [particularly the antistatic characteristic] and (b) do a proper job of executing the job? If so, which? Thanks for your post!

Here is a Marantz 2230 I packed to send to a Ebay winner. Well, this is not the only way to pack a piece of gear, nor is it the only way I pack but you get the idea.

The unit is wrapped in six layers of 1/2" anti-static bubble and placed in a 275# double wall shipping box. The front and back are first covered with 1-1/2" of high density anti-static foam and then 1/2" of Styrofoam. The corners are furthur reinforced with 1-1/2" x 2-1/2" Styrofoam Blocks.

An important part here is to make sure nothing is resting on or can come into contact with the knobs, switches or dials.

I find a lot of free foam and bubble wrap at furniture stores. So much furniture is made overseas now and it comes in big boxes with lots of foam sheets and corners. I've found some bubble wrap at furniture stores that I would describe as 'mil spec' it's made so strong. Also, I would echo the closed cell foam in appliance and computer packaging -- good stuff.

I was reading some of the different posts on packaging & shipping and thought i would share some of my experience, i hope some of it is at least insightful.

I have Shipped 100's of Vintage Electronics on eBay and other internet sales and have found that the safest and most effective way of shipping Vintage Electronics is actually a combination of several methods to ensure safe arrival of the items you ship. I also have received enough items to fill a small dumpster because someone did not take the time or have the knowledge of how to pack and ship safely.

Whether I’m shipping speakers or electronics I always wrap the item in a clear plastic bag to protect the item from any moisture damage (you never know) plus it keeps dust and handling marks from getting all over item you are shipping. I use several layers of 1/2" bubble wrap depending on the weight or how fragile the item is i.e. glass, plastic etc. If the item requires double boxing, I then put that packaging into a 200# box which I made to fit to the dimensions and then use at least 2" of Styrofoam around that box and then make a box out of 275# cardboard to fit securely around that package * and there you have a pkg that will withstand a fall from 4'-5' without damaging the contents *.

This obviously is not cheap, however I explain to the buyer what type of packaging methods and materials I use and they are usually willing to pay to have their items "professionally" packaged Heavier items should have the boxes closed using only industrial methods of securing the box closed. i.e. industrial 2.0 mil industrial tape and plenty of it, industrial hot melt glue or industrial staples from a heavy duty staple gun. The strength & rigidity of the shipping box comes from securing the flaps so that the box cannot flex, this cannot be done by merely taping the exterior, to demonstrate this take an 8x8x8 box and tape it closed and then with both hands push on the sides of the box and you can get the box to change shapes. This will not properly protect the contents, now take the same box and secure each flap to each other by either hot gluing or industrial stapling and you can change the shape of the box.

For items that do not require double boxing I still do the first several steps the same and instead of making the box out of 200# to go around the bubble wrap, I then make a layer of 2" Styrofoam around the bubble wrap and I then make a box out of 275# cardboard and use the above method for securing the box closed. This is a very lengthy process I go thru that had taken me years to develop and not everyone will have all of the tools necessary to make the above packaging possible, however I thought I would throw out my 2 cents on how I package so hopefully my years of packaging may help some else ship their next piece of Vintage Electronics safely so the new owner will not be disappointed as we all have been at one time or another.

One last thought that I practice with all of the money and packaging expenses I go thru to pack and ship safely, I never try to make a profit on packaging I do cover my cost for the packaging i.e.: bubble, boxes, cardboard sheet material however the tape, hot melt glue, industrial stapler, staples and other add up to about $1.00 a pkg and nothing urkes me more that buying an item off of eBay and the guy charges you $15.00 for packaging and you get a used diaper box with newspaper in it for cushioning.

I hope this information can be of some help for all of the Vintage audio buffs that buy and sell.

I have a great E--- Reputation for packing. Ive received a few bad pack jobs and it sucks.

I always add 10 bucks to the price of a large item and I go to the family dollar store and buy a twin size foam mattress pad (egg crate style) for 10 dollars.
(I also buy every roll of foam I see at garage sales)

I layer wadded newspaper in the box and wrap the gear with foam, it usually goes around twice and leaves a bunch on the ends for "rolling" to protect the sides.

With receivers, etc...I use polyfill (craft stuff, I buy EVERY bag I see at thrift stores and garage sales) to stuff all around the knobs & speaker terminals...then wrap it in a trash bag and roll it into the foam. Then I top the box off with more newspaper.

I actually prefer used boxes and heres why....they tend to be a bit squishy, esp in the corners, this allows the foam to absorb the impact rather than a hard hit to a stiff edge or corner.

I havent lost anything yet.

I used to work at a pack ship store and on occasion shipped out guitars and amps. some useful info I can share.

-postal service is cheaper ussually only with small packages. UPS is cheaper online than in the store and Fedex ground has goten even cheaper than UPS. and in 2 years of working with all 4 carriers I have problems with each of them, but all were isolated incidents.

-if there ever is a problem. official proceedure is. keep the packaging, take pictures of how it arrived. hopefully the shipper takes pics of how it was packed. the reciever should contact the shipper and the shipper is the only person a carrier will deal with(sometimes if it is mailed through a ups store or other pack and ship store technically they are the shipper if their account number was used). also you will need to provide a reciept to show the selling price. and if you did not get it insured or declare a value the max payout is 100$ no matter what its worth.

-if a package will be left at the door when no one awnsers is up to the disgretion of the driver. if you write leave at door on the label they know its ok but can still choose to take it back with them and reattempt the next day.

-if you ever have a question about how to pack fedex has a packing lab that is free to call and they will walk you through step by step on how to package correctly. 1-800-633-7019

if you guys have any questions ill try to chime in if i can help.

It would be interesting to call the Fedex packing lab and ask them how to package a 60 lb vintage receiver.