Hi all,

My main system is MONO using a PILOT AA-903B (EL-84) Amp with a circa
1950's Eames design STEPHENS TRU-SONIC Horn Speaker. I someday hope to buy an old "Broadcast Turntable" (such as a Rek-O-Kut) as the "period correct" Turntable for playing MONO Jazz LP's. I was wondering, for the time being, would either the TECHNICS SL-1300 or my (soon to be up and running) THORENS TD-160 be a match with a DENON DL-102 Cartridge which is designed for MONO playback (as well as Stereo). I am now collecting MONO Jazz LP's as I love their sound on my system. If the DL-102 isn't correct for the aforementioned Turntables, which MONO Cartridge might be a good choice ? Thanks for your help.

Regards,
SixCats! aka Tom

hmm....my impression was that the DL-102 was mono ONLY.

correct me if i'm wrong fellow ak'ers.

iLUVanalog is correct. It is mono only. You can play stereo records, but you'll only get mono output.

It requires 2-4g of tracking force which is pretty high. I think it's workable with the Technics and Thorens, but yes, a vintage model with higher mass arm would be more ideal.

Hi guys,

Thanks for responding to my post. I should of worded my statement more carefully. You are indeed correct iLUV, the DL-12 is MONO only but can play Stereo LP's without damage to either the Stereo LP or Stylus
(if I understand correctly). I'm really not sure what the best course of action I should take at this time. That is to say, it may take me a long time before I can acquire a ROK (or such).

Regards,
SixCats!

The other mono carts are as follows:

Ortofon OM D25M (2.5g TF)
Grado ME+ and MC+ (1.5g TF)

They use lower tracking force, but have 1 mil styli as opposed to .7 mil on the Denon. The Grado MC+ is $80 at lpgear. Maybe that's a better match for now and not too expensive, and then get the Denon later.

The Technics arm will work fine, but you will need the extra arm weight that screws into the back of the arm stub to get the arm to balance, as the 102 weighs in I believe at 13 grams. also you may want to add damping to the arm tube. You can add damping by wrapping the arm with plumbers Teflon tape. I'm not sure about the Thorens arm as it may be to light.

Thanks guys. I'm going to keep all my options open. Hak, I think you make good sense. Perhaps the Grado would be a better choice for the time being.
Stan, thanks for the tips.

Regards,
SixCats!

Thanks guys. I'm going to keep all my options open. Hak, I think you make good sense. Perhaps the Grado would be a better choice for the time being.
Stan, thanks for the tips.

Regards,
SixCats!

Well being the owner of a Grado MC+ it is a good cartridge but if I had the budget and more MONO LP's I'd opt for the Denon 102. The one thing I did with my MC+ was change the stylus to a 0.07 mil FTR stylus it seem to smooth out the high end but truth be told unless you really listened hard it was hard to tell between the two styluses except I did notice a bit less surface noise with the FTR stylus.

The Thorens has too light a tonearm for a Denon. The Technics SL-1300 works superbly with Denon MC cartridges. The Rek-O-Kut turntable and a tonearm like an old Gray Labs, Rek-O-Kut, Grado arm, or something like an old ESL or Ortofon arm would be superb for a Denon MC.

The Thorens has too light a tonearm for a Denon. The Technics SL-1300 works superbly with Denon MC cartridges. The Rek-O-Kut turntable and a tonearm like an old Gray Labs, Rek-O-Kut, Grado arm, or something like an old ESL or Ortofon arm would be superb for a Denon MC.
Hmmm. Doesn't the TP-16 on the Thorens TD-160 have a mass of 16g? And I think the Technics is there or maybe a gram less? So I think it applies the same to both tables. And my mistake--I was thinking the Technics was 12g, but that's the MK2--the original is higher.

The Thorens is on the marginal side of the equation. I never liked the Denon's tracking in the TP-16. The Denon tracks fine in the Technics arm. Synergy, apparently.

Hi guys,

Hak, Kent, Stan & iLUV. I VERY much appreciate all your help.
I am however still uncertain. Let me explain why. My prefered music is Classic Jazz. My MAIN Audio system is a vintage MONO system.
I can use any STEREO source with my MONO system (SIRIUS, CDP, PHONO, FM TUNER, etc.) as I use a "custom made" plug (made by an Electrical Engineer friend) that properly mixes Stereo signal into Mono signal.
Presently, I have two decent Turntables, the Technics SL-1300 and the Thorens TD-160. Since I have both STEREO and MONO LP's, does it makes more sense to buy a MONO Cartridge that is capable of playing/tracking STEREO LP's well or, buy a STEREO Cartridge that tracks/plays MONO LP's well. Mind you, the end result is the music is being played through a vintage PILOT AA-903B MONO Amp and (a single) STEPHENS TRU-SONIC Horn Speaker. So, which Cartridge would best pull "the magic" out of those old Jazz grooves ? Perhaps I should just set up BOTH the SL-1300 and the TD-160. The problem is, I have limited money, so, which SET UP first ? MONO or STEREO and, which Table first ? Thanks again guys for any help you may offer. Oooh dear God, my Head is spinning like an LP! I just don't know if I'm spinning in MONO or STEREO lol.

Regards,
SixCats! aka Tom

Hi guys,

Hak, Kent, Stan & iLUV. I VERY much appreciate all your help.
I am however still uncertain. Let me explain why. My prefered music is Classic Jazz. My MAIN Audio system is a vintage MONO system.
I can use any STEREO source with my MONO system (SIRIUS, CDP, PHONO, FM TUNER, etc.) as I use a "custom made" plug (made by an Electrical Engineer friend) that properly mixes Stereo signal into Mono signal.
Presently, I have two decent Turntables, the Technics SL-1300 and the Thorens TD-160. Since I have both STEREO and MONO LP's, does it makes more sense to buy a MONO Cartridge that is capable of playing/tracking STEREO LP's well or, buy a STEREO Cartridge that tracks/plays MONO LP's well. Mind you, the end result is the music is being played through a vintage PILOT AA-903B MONO Amp and (a single) STEPHENS TRU-SONIC Horn Speaker. So, which Cartridge would best pull "the magic" out of those old Jazz grooves ? Perhaps I should just set up BOTH the SL-1300 and the TD-160. The problem is, I have limited money, so, which SET UP first ? MONO or STEREO and, which Table first ? Thanks again guys for any help you may offer. Oooh dear God, my Head is spinning like an LP! I just don't know if I'm spinning in MONO or STEREO lol.

Regards,
SixCats! aka Tom

I see you love Jazz then the 102 is a no brainer as it's used a lot in japan with dedicated MONO systems. I remember once watching some Japanese collectors sitting in a room with nice leather chairs smoking cigars listening to John Coltrane. The Garrard table was a 301 with an Ortofon arm and mounted to it was a 102,it's used in a lot of systems in Japan for that very thing you enjoy most.

A true mono cart will damage stereo grooves due to it's stylus size (.01mil vs. .008mil and smaller for stereo), so if you intend to play any stereo albums buy a good .008 conical stereo cart and get the best of both worlds. I went through this debate as much of my jazz collection is mono, and I hated the surface noise and general lack of zip I was getting from an elliptical stylus. I figured that during the early era of stereo, most carts were designed to make both mono and stereo albums sound good, hence a period cart was the way to go. Furthermore, older phono pre's (like on your Pilot) tend to need a higher output cart to get over the tube hum and grain inherant to older tube equipment. I use a Pickering V-15II (c. 1963 with a .008 conical cart and 5.5Mv output) on an ESL tonearm and it sounds superb.

If you want a very reasonably priced cart that is .008mil conical with around 4.6Mv of output, the current Stanton 500V3 is a rebadged Pickering V-15 (same company) and is a steal at $40 (if you shop around you can find them for $30). Also at 5.5grams, it would be a great match for your Technics as is since it is a "DJ cart" and your Technics is a "DJ" table. The Denon is a lovely cart, but at 3.5Mv of output you may be hearing alot of grain.

Good luck and let us know how you do,

James R.

Hi Stan and JW,

Again, thanks guys. I have to think about all these choices. I LOVE the sound of my mono LP's but, at present, I own but a few. Stan, I have heard nothing but postive comments on the DL-102 and was really leaning that direction but, having so few MONO LP's, perhaps I would be better served by first replacing my old MA stylus with a Stereo Cart on the Technics SL-1300. Then perhaps I could later set up the TD-160 w/a MONO Cart ? Arrrrrr! I dunno! JW, I do like your idea about getting the best of both Worlds using a Stereo Cart designed for both playback. Oooh, I completely forgot to mention! JW, I am sort of cheating with my MONO system. That is to say, I run my SL-1300 directly into my MARANTZ 1060's PHONO input and OUT via the RECORD OUT into the PILOT. I am doing this as you are indeed correct, the old Pilot Amp's PHONO stage sounded aweful. Using the 1060 was a cheap fix that sounds very good. I will look into the Stanton! The price is VERY attractive! Oooh, JW, could you please explain what you mean by my SL-1300 being a "DJ" table ? The SL-1300 is circa 1975 long before any (intentional scratching) took place. Thanks guys.

Regards,
SixCats!

Hi Stan and JW,

....Oooh, JW, could you please explain what you mean by my SL-1300 being a "DJ" table ? The SL-1300 is circa 1975 long before any (intentional scratching) took place. Thanks guys.

Regards,
SixCats!

I didn't see which model of Technics you were using, I assumed it was a 12XX series which were/are the workhorse of the DJ industry. They are fantastic tables (if you like direct drive which I'm not crazy about) and can track almost anything.

The Stanton is very underrated as it is not marketed as a "audiophile" cart, but I have listened to that cart on several tables and although it lacks the refinement of higher end carts (a little rolled off on the end, and the mids are a bit recessed), it does everything well and presents a very "large" sound. Plus since it's a conical stylus, alignment is not as crucial as with an elliptical or Shibata. Like all audio equipment designed (the 500 series cart is a 50 year old design) in that era, close is sometimes good enough.


James R.

Oh, and your avoidance of the Pilot phono stage may be mute if you get a high enough output cart. When I got my Fisher 500c, I hated the sound of my phono stage and started shopping for an outboard phono stage at the additional cost of several hundreds to run through the aux (which I hate as the reciever has a phono selector and I want to use it). A friend of mine reminded me that at the time my Fisher (and you Pilot) were made, the standard ceramic cart had an output somwhere around 10Mv, and the "low" output magnetic carts were between 5-6Mv. I was trying ot use a 2.5Mv cart and it sounded like hell (hummy, grainy, and lacked zip). I thought about period matching, and started with a Shure M7d (5Mv) and it sounded amazing. I then wanted something with a little more refinement and went with the Pickering V-15. The Fisher now sounds dead quiet until I get the volume above 12-0'clock, and even at that, I only hear the hum when there is not music playing. Plus, I can actually hear how stunning those Mullard tubes (I replaced my phono tele's with vintage Mullards.....incredible) can be since my signal is strong enough to really let them shine.

James

Hi James,

Thanks for all the very valuable information! James, regarding my Pilot Amp and my avoiding the use of the Pilot's PHONO section, did you mean it may be MOOT (as opposed to MUTE) if I use a higher output Cart. ? I assume that's is what you meant ? I also have a FISHER 400 hooked up to a pair of circa 1960 Wharfedale W-90's.

Regards,
SixCats!

Hi James,

Thanks for all the very valuable information! James, regarding my Pilot Amp and my avoiding the use of the Pilot's PHONO section, did you mean it may be MOOT (as opposed to MUTE) if I use a higher output Cart. ? I assume that's is what you meant ? I also have a FISHER 400 hooked up to a pair of circa 1960 Wharfedale W-90's.

Regards,
SixCats!

Yes...moot...my apologies for the typo.....I hadn't had coffee at that point in the morning. Your Fisher should also benefit from high output as well. I have an acquantance who was running a VPI Scoutmaster through a Scott Integrated amp, and hated the sound of his phono pre (too much noise and hum) so he bought a very expensive outboard phono pre and ran it through aux. I clued him in to the output matching stuff and he tried one of the new Ortofon carts (the blue, red, bronze and black carts are all high output MM elliptical carts) which are 4.5-5.5 Mv output....he never knew the phono pre in his Scott ever sounded so good....it's all about matching.:thmbsp:

James

Hi James,

Got it! Excellent information to know! In fact, I printed out these pages. I am sure this info will be of help too many using Classic gear.

Regards,
Tom aka SixCats!