**the pics are not of my actual tables, just for reference...**


After several weeks of listening to a Yamaha Yp-801BL (http://k-nisi.hp.infoseek.co.jp/yp-800.jpg)w/ various carts and enjoying the bottomless pit of tweaking fun, I decided to set up a Philips GA 212 (http://sebastian-scherf.homepage.t-online.de/ftp/philips_ga_212_1.jpg) I bought, nee OVERPAID for at the same time, and which had arrived at me door from that auction site looking far far less than I paid for it. I was right pissed.:dammit:

But I got over it, looked at my picture of the Dalai Lama and said 'you'er right, even this tt needs some love too'. So I set it up, prayed that it worked, and put on the first disc. Aja.

And man, what a difference! Totally different sound! I tried out all my carts, fiddled with the ridiculous Fisher-Price-Toy looking tonearm (proper stylus gauge on the way) VTF thingy and no matter what it was clear that this was its own sound, and it was good. Compared to the YP-801, the soundstage was way wide, more air around instruments, more space around vocals, midrange was clearer and less recessed and the dynamics are just stellar. Only thing lacking at the moment, is some fullness in the sound but I haven't finished playing with the vtf/alignment yet.

It's like someone opened a window on the music. Like I walked out of stuffy sacred audio church into sunday morning light.

Mind you, I really was enjoying the Yamaha, it has a full meaty sound but in comparison to the 212 words like 'dark' 'closed', come to mind. And this includes all the alignment/cartridge/vtf changes I've made since I got it. It's just the overall sound of the table.

So what could contribute to such a difference in presentation?

Tonearm/cartridge matching? Yam has medium-mass S-arm, 212 super light arm that I'm afraid I'll break any second now. I've got an AT92ECD w/ hyperellitpical and regular elliptical styli, an Lpgear Harmonic Opulence Deft 2, and a Digitrac 300SE nude fine line. I could find very little compliance info, so could be that the Yammy arm is too heavy?

Interconnects? Both table seem to have original interconnects...

Input capacitance? Too much w/ the 212, too little w/ the Yammy? Heck, I don't even know what means!

Any 212 users out there who could comment on their experience and possible comparisons? Or other thoughts on these kind of sonic differences.

Guess I'm a little amazed that an almost toy Fisher-Price looking table w/ gimmicky lights could sound so good...:music:

This is great! Thanks for sharing this. Reminds me that I need to try out some other tables...

The Philips has always been considered an excellent table for the money. The low mass tonearm has a lot to do with this. I would expect that if you have the arm balanced properly the tracking force added by the FP sliding weight would be fairly accurate.

The Philips has always been considered an excellent table for the money. Th elow mass tonearm has a lot to do with this. I would expect that if you have the arm balanced properly the tracking force added by the FP sliding weight would be fairly accurate.

I agree, the low mass arm matching maybe one reason. the AT's really shine now. Before I couldn't quite understand why they were considered a bargain. The Deft 2, however, sounds equally great on both tables. Hopefully I'll write up a little review of that cart soon.

I'm just surprised I prefer it to Yamaha, which cost almost 3x as much and was a TOTL when it came out ('76 or '77?)

The Deft 2, however, sounds equally great on both tables. Hopefully I'll write up a little review of that cart soon.



I'd love to hear it! I was giving that one serious thought over the past month, ending up with a Denon DL-110. One of my reservations about the Deft2 was the absolute lack of any review on it, because the specs sounded pretty good. That said, I'm very pleased with the Denon.....I just like reading cartridge reviews!

I'd love to hear it! I was giving that one serious thought over the past month, ending up with a Denon DL-110. One of my reservations about the Deft2 was the absolute lack of any review on it, because the specs sounded pretty good. That said, I'm very pleased with the Denon.....I just like reading cartridge reviews!


And I just like buying cartridges :D

I just ordered the DL-110 and a SoundSmith should be here, well, whenever they get to it I guess...

I figure it'll be about 2 years before all my carts are even burned in!

Well first of all it's a given that different tonearms will produce different sound--often dramatic. Yes, the AT is a better match to the low mass arm of the Philips. The same goes for the Digitrac. The Deft2 is slightly lower compliance--still a better match to the Philips, but a bit more acceptable for the Yamaha.

The best measure of compliance is tracking force. Figure 1g on the low end and 3g on the high end. Low mass arm mates best with low TF cart and vice versa.

Incidentally the DL-110 is excellent, but has a median TF of 1.8g and is actually better suited to the Yamaha.

Was a 30 year user of 212/312 (had 4 of them ) and they bettered my cd rig when CD came out and so easy to use . I wish all tables were as easy to live with . There are better tables out there but the Philips will always hold a spot in my heart :thmbsp:

Well first of all it's a given that different tonearms will produce different sound--often dramatic. Yes, the AT is a better match to the low mass arm of the Philips. The same goes for the Digitrac. The Deft2 is slightly lower compliance--still a better match to the Philips, but a bit more acceptable for the Yamaha.

The best measure of compliance is tracking force. Figure 1g on the low end and 3g on the high end. Low mass arm mates best with low TF cart and vice versa.

Incidentally the DL-110 is excellent, but has a median TF of 1.8g and is actually better suited to the Yamaha.

So Howard, when a cartridge specs a range of tracking force, which figure does one use to determine a tonearm match? The mean of that range?

Well first of all it's a given that different tonearms will produce different sound--often dramatic. Yes, the AT is a better match to the low mass arm of the Philips. The same goes for the Digitrac. The Deft2 is slightly lower compliance--still a better match to the Philips, but a bit more acceptable for the Yamaha.

The best measure of compliance is tracking force. Figure 1g on the low end and 3g on the high end. Low mass arm mates best with low TF cart and vice versa.

Incidentally the DL-110 is excellent, but has a median TF of 1.8g and is actually better suited to the Yamaha.

Would you say then, that all other elements being equal, that next to the cartridge, the tonearm is the largest contributing factor to the tonality of a turntable?

So Howard, when a cartridge specs a range of tracking force, which figure does one use to determine a tonearm match? The mean of that range?

Good question, the Deft 2 for instance lists a range of 1.25g - 2.0g...

So Howard, when a cartridge specs a range of tracking force, which figure does one use to determine a tonearm match? The mean of that range?Yes.

Would you say then, that all other elements being equal, that next to the cartridge, the tonearm is the largest contributing factor to the tonality of a turntable? I don't know if one is really more contributing than the other. With the exception of times where the arm and cartridge synergize or clash to a large degree, if you A/B two tables, you can hear the same characteristics of the cartridge against the different colorings of each arm.

Back in the day, we referred to the Philips 212 as the "Poor Man's Thorens". It was that good of a machine. My dear departed 212 had a Micro Acoustics 2002 cartridge installed. Heard many more expensive combos then which were no better sounding or tracked any better. I paid $129 new for my 212 then and another $75 for that cartridge then.

Back in the day, we referred to the Philips 212 as the "Poor Man's Thorens". It was that good of a machine. My dear departed 212 had a Micro Acoustics 2002 cartridge installed. Heard many more expensive combos then which were no better sounding or tracked any better. I paid $129 new for my 212 then and another $75 for that cartridge then.

I think your table was picked up by an AK member as he also had the same cart on his recent 212 score ?