Okay, so I have a (new to me) Technics SL-1300. I'm getting ready to put in Petra phono cables and new ground wire. That's a no-brainer.

But I have three cartridges, all in need of new stylus, so I don't know if or how any of them work. I've seen specs, but I know those don't always give an accurate picture. I have a fourth cartridge, which has a stylus that works. I'll throw it into the mix for variety. Basically, I can only afford to buy one stylus right now. Over time, I'll probably keep them all, unless I find one doesn't work, which would be a bummer if I bought a stylus and the cart was "dead" or messed up.

So for grins, I thought I'd do my first poll.

Need to buy stylus:
1) ADC XLM MK II
2) Audio Technica AT11E
3) Grado F3+

Stylus still okay:
4) Shure M55E (this one works, so no expense here)

Well, you're assuming that the cartridge has to use the same stylus that's already there. I'd upgrade the AT11E to a Shibata with an ATN12S or ATS12S stylus. Same cost as a Grado blue stylus.

Good point Howard. I did see that upgrade at LP Gear . . . and would definitely consider that one.

So guys, feel free to vote for one and in your comment, note the upgrade if that's your thoughts on the matter. Remember, the point of this is to pick your favored cartridge as a base to start from.

For instance, I have no idea if the cantilever in the older Grado F3+ is comparable with the newer Prestige series Black - Blue that I would consider putting on there. To me, going to a Red stylus for that cartridge is past the point of diminishing returns.

I second the AT11E with an original ATS12S needle, LpGear seems to have a sort of a bargain price still. Anything that sounds better will cost much more.
/gusten

Edit: If You promise not to tell anyone the best bargain is an Excel Es70 with a Shibata needle.

I'll try to keep that hush, hush ;)

Play the ADC XLM and see what you think? On some arms it's quite nice :)

I will definitely try that out. At the very least, I'll find out if the cartridge body is working, but hopefully the stylus is in decent shape . . . although if it is, that could be misleading.

Overall, I think all these cartridges have their merits.

I think I want to read up more on the Shibata needles. I know they are "better", but let's take the ATN12S and ATS12S. They are variations on the Shibata tip, but I have no understanding of why one is better than the other and what benefit to expect.

Regarding the ATN12S and ATS12S, the ones I have are very similar and I cannot see or hear any major difference between them. They have normally the same bonded tip with a tapered cantilever. Both fits an AT11 body and I think they also normally are priced about the same. The first AT needle that have a nude square shank is ATS14, but it do not fit an AT11 body directly.
I would recommend to try ATS12S, it´s really surprisingly good.
gusten

The ATS12S is definitely in the right price. I'd like to keep this next stylus purchase to about $50 shipped. This is close enough.

Still haven't made a decision, but since I plan on getting a $100-150 range cartridge in the next month or two, like a AT440LMa (LP Gear still has a great price) . . . I need to think about questions like is the AT11e with ATS12S shibata stylus AND (eventually) AT440LMa, too much of the same sound?

Remember, part of what I'm looking for with this table is the ability to have 3-4 headshell/cartridge setups to have fun with learning the differences in sound, but more importantly, having a small arsenal of cartridges that will help me get the most out of my music collection.

not so with the newer designs. for that reason i would avoid the ATs intended for CD4 discs. if you could find a NOS XLM stylus, it might be a real gem if the suspension hasnt died of old age. nix that on the technics though. the grado may really be your best bet.

This may be a dumb question, but is there a good way to "test" a cartridge before spending the money on a new stylus?

When you said "nix that on the AT", were you referring to the suspension?

"nix that on the technics though". i mean that the adc with its delicate suspension wouldnt hold up well on the 1300's arm. the grado would be fine.

the only TEST might be listening to the old unit.

Well, you're assuming that the cartridge has to use the same stylus that's already there. I'd upgrade the AT11E to a Shibata with an ATN12S or ATS12S stylus. Same cost as a Grado blue stylus.

What Howard said.

The Shibata will sit deeper and pull out more sound.

"Well, you're assuming that the cartridge has to use the same stylus that's already there. I'd upgrade the AT11E to a Shibata with an ATN12S or ATS12S stylus. Same cost as a Grado blue stylus."

"i would avoid the ATs intended for CD4 discs" is what i said. the at12s is one of those. cost is not the consideratation, sound is. the CD4 type cartridges by AT were bright and rough sounding at the top. we once did a test of the AT14s vs XLM and the XLM won hands down.

do what you will, but the grado will likely sound better than the AT and hold up better than the ADC.

Remember, part of what I'm looking for with this table is the ability to have 3-4 headshell/cartridge setups to have fun with learning the differences in sound, but more importantly, having a small arsenal of cartridges that will help me get the most out of my music collection.

If your going that approach, then I would get a stylus for the Grado, the AT will sound very similar to a 440 I'm sure, whereas the Grado will have a wonderful warm sound that will mate well with some records.

The F3+ would be the equivalent of a Grado Blue. Any current Grado stylus will work.

I use an F1+, which is the equivalent of the current Silver and the current stylus (I bought a new one a couple months ago) fits perfectly and is at least as good, if not better, than the original stylus of 20 years ago.

Grado F3+, indeed!

Rome

It's getting clearer now :)

I do like my Grado Prestige Silver on my AR XA, with original tonearm (see my avatar). So with the comments so far, I may want to try out the Grado first, then move to the AT440LMa . . . still thinking though . . . not buying anything just yet.

So for grins, I thought I'd do my first poll.

Need to buy stylus:
1) ADC XLM MK II
2) Audio Technica AT11E
3) Grado F3+

Stylus still okay:
4) Shure M55E (this one works, so no expense here)

I have two ARs running XLMs, so I know their sound well. One one hand, with two in hand already, something different might be a nice change of pace. On the other, one's choices tend to be limited by one's preferences. :)

My second choice would be the Grado. Grados have a known tendency to hum when used on some classic AR tables, but if the one you have is not doing it, you may be ok with others. I have a Black that produces a nearly inaudible hum as it hits the lock groove at the end of an LP, increasing to quite loud as the arm is lifted off the record and swung over the spindle toward the motor. I don't listen at concert hall levels, but I imagine that what is inaudible to me at my normal levels can only become worse as the volume is turned up.

I haven't listed to AT or Shure carts in years and don't know these specific models, so I can't comment on either.

Why not bite the bullet and go for a MC type cartridge?

Sounds like you are saturated with MM's....try one of the budget Denons and see what you think....they can be had for about what some of the replacement styli go for and may get you even better sound than anything you currently possess...

Then again, it looks like the 1300 is a full automatic with no VTA adjustment, so perhaps the radical stylus profiles of the line contact and Shibata styles might not be the best match?

If it's a MkII or better it looks like there is an adjustment for VTA....the arm also looks like a slightly modified SL1200 variant....

Either way, a typical elliptical stylus is a lot less critical on VTA than a line contact variant and perhaps a better match?

And no, I don't have any fiduciary connection to Denon, the fellow I work for part time does not sell them, but I feel that the DL-160 and 110 are two of the greatest slam-dunk bargain cartridges out there, exceeding the quality of all the Grados below the Sonata and pretty much equaling that cartridge with just a different set of trade-offs...in other words, before I bought a $55 Blue stylus, I save up the extra and buy the DL-110 and never look back....and yes, I own a Blue, and a Gold, and a Red, and a Black, and a Sonata....

Just my $.02 from an unabashedly overt lover of most things MC vs MM....

.

gkimeng,

As you know, I have the Grado Silver on my AR XA, and the hum is only noticeable if I crank the volume way up after the last track is done playing. So at normal listening volumes I can't hear it, if it's even there.

RickB,

Oh, you would go through that into the mix :) I was planning on waiting to get an MC after I get my Pioneer SX-D7000 up and running, as it has a switch for MC and MM. I don't think my SL-1300 has the VTA adjustment . . . it's not the MkII. I am interested in trying out a Denon cart at some point. I've heard enough about the Denon 110 and 160 to warrant buying one down the road.

For now, my budget has to build up before I can do anything "special" on carts.

One thought after hifitommy and gkimeng's comments on the ADC, is that maybe I should consider putting the Grado Silver on the SL-1300, and the ADC on the AR . . . only problem is if the threads on the AR headshell get stripped and render it useless. But if I thought the ADC would sound as good or better than the Grado Silver on the AR, it might be a better solution.

So now that a fly has been put in the ointment :D by dangling the idea of going MC with a Denon DL-110, I'll ask the dumb question. Do I have to get a phono preamp?

I see a source online for these at about $90, which is a really good price.

I'm curious if anyone here has put a DL-110 on a SL-1300 . . .

Sounds like you are saturated with MM's....

.

While it may look like I'm saturated with MM's, it's possible they would all need new stylus' in order to be useable. That's my initial reason for the post. So it may prove best that I wait on getting into MC's (which I want to do at some point) until I have a table that will be appropriate to use, and have a proper phono preamp (assuming I need one).

But I do appreciate the comments :)

Skip the MC cart for now... mess with that down the road..
and yes... you do need a stepup or mc preamp and those
are real expensive..
Besides, you said you want to experiment and learn.

Grado in the Techincs and XLM in the AR sounds like a winner.

With the ATs.. I think getting a new 440 when you have the
11 is senseless.
The "family sound" is there with either and the older cart
series is better made.
The harsh/edgy top with shibata myth is just that.
They got a bad rep in that regard due to NOT properly loading.
They're much more sensitive to loading than most.

Load the earlier ATs properly and they smoooooooooooth
out real nice.

The shibata/high compliance ATs don't work that well in
the relative imprecise stock XA arms.

Btw.. the earlier Grados have better motors than the new
budget models.
More consistancy between the coils too.
The new models have better styli though.
Combine older model body with the proper current stylus
and you got the best of both worlds..
and a cart best suited of the lot for the Techincs..

PS: Meter out both coils of any cart you wanna see whether
its any good for resistance.
If they vary little the cart is good.
Also if not shorted or open, obviously.

So now that a fly has been put in the ointment :D by dangling the idea of going MC with a Denon DL-110, I'll ask the dumb question. Do I have to get a phono preamp?

I see a source online for these at about $90, which is a really good price.

I'm curious if anyone here has put a DL-110 on a SL-1300 . . .

That is a great cart and you can run in with a normal MM stage, infact the Denon DL-110 and 160 are said to like MM stages better. So your fine with running it in the same way you would your MM's. Now that I've given you yet one more choice, good luck with your decision, Nick

I think I may try the shibata ATN12S on the older AT, and a Blue stylus on the Grado F3+ at some point. It will be cheaper to test out the older AT and if I like great. If not, I can always let it go.

Now I'm really curious about pulling the Grado off the AR, but I have to make sure the ADC is working. So how do you meter that Muzak? I have a DMM. I'll do a search later today if I don't hear back from you. Thanks!

If one of these carts is dead, that will take it out of contention. And Trower, thanks for the tip on the Denon.

Gkimeng . . . have you used anything close to the Grado Silver on your AR's? If so, do you like the ADC XLM better, and why?

So now that a fly has been put in the ointment :D by dangling the idea of going MC with a Denon DL-110, I'll ask the dumb question. Do I have to get a phono preamp?

I see a source online for these at about $90, which is a really good price.

I'm curious if anyone here has put a DL-110 on a SL-1300 . . .

Sorry but MuZak's info about you needing a new preamp is wrong.

The DL-110 and DL-160 are high output moving coil cartridges meant to work into the typical moving magnet input...they have impedance and output meant for that kind of an input, not ones meant for step-up transformers or low impedance, high gain phono inputs.

So, yes, you would be good to go with one, no need to add anything else to the mix...

have you used anything close to the Grado Silver on your AR's? If so, do you like the ADC XLM better, and why?

The only Grado I've ever used was the Black. My TT came new with a dealer-installed Empire cartridge (model long since forgotten). That was ok, but when it failed I replaced it with a Shure V15 II, which was a big improvement. Replacement stylii for the V15 II became hard to obtain (this was before aftermarket stylii for this model became available), and the V15 III and the original ADC XLM, both highly-rated at the time, were too high-compliance for the AR arm, so my next cartridge was the XLM II, which was still considered high compliance, but not as insanely high as its predecessor, and I've been there ever since.

I can't really give you any specifics on why I liked the Shure and ADC better than the Grado, except that to my ears the Grado seems kind of "less" to me. But I really didn't expect it to compete, and bought it because I needed a test cartridge when I was building my second turntable.

If you decide to try an MC, avoid cartridges that fall into the very-low-compliance range, as these have been found by others to result in resonant frequencies that come too close to the audible range in the AR arm.

Sorry but MuZak's info about you needing a new preamp is wrong.

The DL-110 and DL-160 are high output moving coil cartridges meant to work into the typical moving magnet input...they have impedance and output meant for that kind of an input, not ones meant for step-up transformers or low impedance, high gain phono inputs.

So, yes, you would be good to go with one, no need to add anything else to the mix...
Quite right... I stand corrected.
For some reason I thought I'd read that his interest had to
do with low output MCs..
My bad.
I really gotta knock it off with these late night postings....

Quite right... I stand corrected.
For some reason I thought I'd read that his interest had to
do with low output MCs..
My bad.
I really gotta knock it off with these late night postings....

Dude, I know what you mean!

If it wasn't for using Firefox and it's spell corrector...well....

RickB,

Oh, you would go through that into the mix :) I was planning on waiting to get an MC after I get my Pioneer SX-D7000 up and running, as it has a switch for MC and MM. I don't think my SL-1300 has the VTA adjustment . . . it's not the MkII. I am interested in trying out a Denon cart at some point. I've heard enough about the Denon 110 and 160 to warrant buying one down the road.

I think that the stylus profile on the Denon would be more forgiving of
VTA errors than a Shibata stylus...at least in my experience...


For now, my budget has to build up before I can do anything "special" on carts.


It's a good thing, then, that the Denon 110 is relatively affordable....




One thought after hifitommy and gkimeng's comments on the ADC, is that maybe I should consider putting the Grado Silver on the SL-1300, and the ADC on the AR . . . only problem is if the threads on the AR headshell get stripped and render it useless. But if I thought the ADC would sound as good or better than the Grado Silver on the AR, it might be a better solution.

I tried one of my ADC bodies with an aftermarket Shibata stylus on my BL-51/ATP-12T yesterday, switching it out with a Grado Gold...the ADC is still on it....it is really a great sounding cartridge...I feel like the 440ML/OCC is more transparent than the ADC, the AT3200E HOMC is about the same but with a bit more life...but heck, I've got a half dozen NOS stylus assemblies for both the ADC and the 3200, so they tend to get used the most....

[QUOTE=RickB;2593523
If it wasn't for using Firefox and it's spell corrector...well....[/QUOTE]
Even with it I manage to screw it up... lol

wow.....three pages of responses.....the op should have made a decision by now.

how many pages of replies are necessary to make a decision?

for threads like this, i think a maximum of 15 replies should be enough information to make a decision and then close the thread.

You could be right, but there's some really interesting comments, and over the last day, all four cartridges have gotten closer in the poll, which tells me if you give it enough time for different perspectives and viewpoints to see the thread and respond, that you are going to get a more accurate picture.

What I'm seeing is there is no "bad" choice here. The info I've gleaned has done several things. First, it's shown me that there were options I wasn't considering. Like putting a shibata on the AT11e. The biggest surprise, was the Denon popping into the mix. I've noticed that cartridge before and thought it was one I'd eventually want to have. Now, I'm thinking I'd rather try out the shibata on the AT11e that I already have, and if I like, I can save the big bucks for the Denon. That could very well be the crown jewel of the bunch.

FYI, I will probably close the poll at the end of the week. I agree that it shouldn't just go on indefinitely. And it won't. Thanks for that reminder.

Hmm. Can't figure out how to close the poll/thread :|

Well.. a telling what you decided would be a good start.......

The AT11e wins! :)

I just got the table powered up today and tried out the three carts I have stylus on. The ADC sounded horrible, so the stylus has to be shot. Plus after playing a few seconds, the stylus just slid across the record surface. That was fun! I should have checked the stylus force better? :stupid: As bad as it sounded, I wish I could tell if it was all the fault of the stylus . . .

The Grado F3+ and Shure M55e both sounded good. I would imagine they might sound better with a new stylus, but since I don't have one on the AT, I think I'll go with the Shibata on that one. That way, I'll have a working Grado and Shure, plus a "new" AT. Don't want to get the Denon until I get all my upgrades to the turntable done. Plus, I haven't had an AT for years, and the comment on the AT11e with shibata having a similar family sound to the 440 gets me thinking this way.

I will say having multiple headshells is really cool. I have to get some more.

As for the ADC XLM II, can anyone tell me if I can put an improved stylus on?

What upgrades to the turntable, pray tell??

YOU have MULTIPLE AR headshells?!?!?!
Please give me your address so I can mug you.
Ya bastage...

If you DO get some more... you better lemme know where!!!

Hahahaaaaaaa. Ah. Nope. I only have one headshell on the AR. This thread was for my "new" Technics SL-1300. Upgrades include doing the Petra phono cable swap and new ground wire. I also plan on building a base cabinet, similar to the KAB ones, but more like some of the cool Thorens ones I saw on the Herbies mat site. i think this tables will look even better and I can add material between the floor of the cab and tt to help with deadening sound vibes.

If I do find more AR headshells I'll let you know :)

Most of my styli are Shibatas (AT15Sa, AT12Sa, Stanton LP747S, several AT p-mounts with Shibata styli) and one LC (Ortophon OM30), and would recommend them unhesitatingly. The 'Quest 20' on an OM body are very close, however, and a screaming deal ($20!!) if you have any OM bodies around. 'Course, I like a bright sound, so there's your grain of salt. :)

No OM's around here. In fact part of my master plan is to have cartridges representing different manufacturers, in part to enjoy different sound (assuming I like the ones I end up with), and in part as a learning experience to educate my ears to the different characteristics. Of course, since I don't have an unlimited budget, I am happy to find used cartridges in most cases, and upgrade/replace styli as needed.

I wish I did have an extra headshell for my AR, but I may get close to the point where the money I'd have to invest in more headshells, may get saved up to put a new tonearm on . . . maybe a Rega 250. At some point, there won't be any more headshells and someone will either have to create a modern version that can be reproduced somewhat easily, or owners may have to do what they can to make sure their headshell doesn't bite the dust :)

Koseltri: I'm curious you mention liking bright sound. I assume you don't mean in what some may think is harsh, but more transparent in the upper end?

Play the ADC XLM and see what you think? On some arms it's quite nice :)

I tried out the ADC yesterday and it was horrible. Also after about 3 seconds, it skated across the album. I may try again tomorrow, and double check the sf and vta, but I'm positive the stylus is shot. It was all muffled sounding. It all happened so fast, I don't remember if sound came out of both speakers or not.

I'm thinking I may have to buy a stylus at some point for it, if I keep it. My biggest fear is if the cartridge doesn't work well with a new stylus, then I know I have a shot cartridge, and have to sell the stylus . . .

No OM's around here. In fact part of my master plan is to have cartridges representing different manufacturers, in part to enjoy different sound (assuming I like the ones I end up with), and in part as a learning experience to educate my ears to the different characteristics. Of course, since I don't have an unlimited budget, I am happy to find used cartridges in most cases, and upgrade/replace styli as needed.

I wish I did have an extra headshell for my AR, but I may get close to the point where the money I'd have to invest in more headshells, may get saved up to put a new tonearm on . . . maybe a Rega 250. At some point, there won't be any more headshells and someone will either have to create a modern version that can be reproduced somewhat easily, or owners may have to do what they can to make sure their headshell doesn't bite the dust :)

Koseltri: I'm curious you mention liking bright sound. I assume you don't mean in what some may think is harsh, but more transparent in the upper end?

Correct. The AT15Sa is clean and smooth, not a hint of harshness. As for the OM, find a cheap 3E or 5E, and for $20 get A Digitrac (Ortophon) 20 NE Cart, and use the stylus, about the same as the OM 20, except it's $80 less.

Where do you get the Digitrac 20 NE . . . so far the ones I'm finding are $100.

Okay, so I'm looking "inside" this AT11e cartridge and there is some oxidized spotty areas on the metal and plastic. Will this effect the quality of sound? Should I clean it? I don't want to buy a stylus and not have it work properly. This cartridge had a bent stylus so I couldn't test it. Thanks!

Tested out the new ATS12S stylus on my AT11e and it works. I need to get my turntable dialed in so I can see how I like it . . . but I'm hoping I will :) Thanks again guys!