HI All,
As the owner of two very fine high end turntables, tone arms, and cartridges, I have the serious listening end of things pretty well covered. But I have a hole in my strategy. It is called USED RECORDS, LOTS OF THEM. The pile never seems to shrink. I currently have about 200 unplayed records on the shelf and no matter how hard I try to reduce the pile, I add just as many. It's a mania. I confess. My record collection is currently about 4500 LP's and it is still growing. It's toooo many. But I can't help myself. It's a mania.

The question I ask myself is whether I want to wear out my fine, expensive equipment to audition used records of unknown quality. The answer is easy; NO I DON'T!

So, I want to add a third record player that I would use exclusively for used, unknown records of questionable quality. I know I could buy a very cheap turntable or changer. I know this. Since I owned a Hi Fi repair shop for 13 years, I can fix anything. But I can't stand to do this. I am constitutionally built against paying good money for equipment I don't respect. Please don't argue against me. It won't do any good. I just can't do it. I won't do it.

So, I am considering buying a brand new Technics SL1200 Mk 2 turntable and equipping it with a decent, not too expensive, cartridge. I am willing to put $1000 into this little exercise. I'd rather put less into it.

I have an Aesthetix Rhea all tube phono preamp that will handle three turntables. The cartridges can be type mixed because each input can be individually programmed for gain and loading. Right now, I have two low output moving coils. The third could be either MM or MC. I don't want to spend more than $500 for the cartridge, less would be better.

I need to hear your opinions about cartridges in the $300 to $500 dollar range that would work well on the SL1200 arm. I am looking at the Audio Technica OC-9 which I note that I can buy at the Needle Doctor for $349. Denon and Grado are also on the list but I prefer MC's. I also prefer line contact styli which is one reason I am drawn to the AT OC9. But I am open to other ideas. I like a detailed and highly resolving sound.

I do not expect this cartridge to compete with my thousand dollar and up cartridges. But, I do want to be able to enjoy the listening experience. After all 200 (which never seems to reduce!) used records equals roughly 200 hours of listening time. I don't want it to be an ordeal.

BTW, what is the dust cover story on the SL1200? I definitely want one.

Your suggestions and experience is appreciated.

Thanks, Sparky

"I need to hear your opinions about cartridges in the $300 to $500 dollar range that would work well on the SL1200 arm."

Why spend that much if the cartridge will only be used to "audition" records? You might be just as happy with a cartridge that costs 1/2 that. You might consider one of Kabusa's integrated Ortofon cartridges. They are plug and play, and they sound great. In fact, you might consider buying turntable and cartridge from KAB, as the table will be thoroughly checked prior to shipment, will include an upgraded platter mat, and be backed by the most knowledgeable Technics turntable guy around.

I'd suggest the SL-1210 M5G, which has improved tonearm wand and interconnect wiring. At $625 for the 1210 M5G - which will come from KABUSA with a hinged dust cover, and either $179 for the Stanton Integrated cartridge or $292 for the Ortofon Integrated with the OM30 stylus, and you'll have one mighty fine sounding turntable that will fall within your budget.

Good lord, you're willing to spend $1000 on a turntable & cart specifically to be used for testing beater records? It must be nice to be in such a financial position.

BTW, what is the dust cover story on the SL1200? I definitely want one.

The basic SL-1200MK2 comes with a hinged dust cover. Some of the other DJ-oriented varieties of SL-1200 come with a hinge-less dustcover. I don't think there are any versions that do not have any kind of dustcover included.

For what you have left over, if you buy the Kabusa outfit recommended above, you could rent me to flip the records for a considerable period of time. ;)

Maybe an idea of a used Technics Sl-1200 and an old cart from your colletion may be an idea.
I understand the LP collection mania all too well.
Perhaps sink all the rest of the money into a record cleaning machine for all those LP's may be an option.
You are lucky to have the luxury.......

Maybe an idea of a used Technics Sl-1200 and an old cart from your colletion may be an idea.
I understand the LP collection mania all too well.
Perhaps sink all the rest of the money into a record cleaning machine for all those LP's may be an option.
You are lucky to have the luxury.......

HI,
You will note that I was not asking how to save money per se. Do you really think I don't have an RCM with 4500 records to care for? I bought the first VPI 16 when it first hit the market in about 1982. Then about a year later I traded for a VPI 17 which I still have and use all the time.

All my old cartridges are not being used because they are worn out. Except one. I do have a Monster Alpha Genesis 1000 that still has some life left. I really don't want to use it. It's worth more to me as a back up. It's a good cartridge.

Somehow, I think you guys really don't understand what I am trying to do. Or, you just don't agree with the goal. Please don't battle me. I just want to know about cartridges.

Sparky

A Denon DL-103R should be well suited to the SL-1200.

Weight: 8.5G
Compliance: 5x10-6cm/dyne

The cartridges that I am familiar with in your $500 price range are the Shure V15 mk.V, the Grado Sonata, the Dynavector 10x5, and the Benz Micro Gold. Since you have expressed a preference for MC cartridges, I would suggest you give a listen to the Dynavector, a Benz Micro Gold (LO) or Silver (HO).

While I personally like both MM and MC cartridges, I think one of these MC's would be a better match to the arm than a Shure. My Shure seems to like an arm with a much lower mass than the Technics arm. Early on, I had my Shure mounted in a Technics SL-B3 until I purchased my AR. Given the comparisions between the Shure V15 mk.V and the TOTL Audiotecnica cartridges that I've read, I'm inclined to think they would perform best in a lighter arm as well. However, the Grados seem to like those heavier arms as well as the MC's, but you would be trading the detail and pinpoint accuracy of a MC for the lush midrange of the Grado MI. Although I'm not personally familiar with the Denon MC's I would certainly include them in your quest because it seems to me that whoever owns one, loves it and they seem to be a great value for the dollars spent. The Denon models I hear the most about are the DL-103, DL-160, and DL-301.

Since you own such a quality phono stage, I'd tend to favor the LOMC cartridges like the Benz Micro Gold and the Denon DL-301, so you could get the best performance possible out of the MC you select.

I hope this helps! Best of luck on your quest! Please keep us posted on what you decide and how you like it when you get it. Enjoy! :music:

Wait, so you want a test player to play old junk? Get on Craigslist. No need to buy new.

Somehow, I think you guys really don't understand what I am trying to do.

I certainly don't.

I wish I were able to invest $500 in a cartridge for my 'good' records.

Last week PCNation had the 1210 M5G for $416.00.....

Get an SL-1200 and a Shure m97xE and you will be all set for what you are trying to do at half what you are trying to spend. Or if you really need to spend that much then get the SL-1210M5G and one of the cartridges the fellas recommend for it.
I wish I could spend that much just to play my mint albums. :yes:

Last week PCNation had the 1210 M5G for $416.00.....

They are backordered now. I doubt we will see that price again. :no:

HI All,
Now we are getting somewhere. Thanks.

I want to clear some things up. I don't buy "junk" records. I didn't say that. I buy used records. As such, they are of unknown quality, not necessarily junk, and, in many cases, I don't know if I will like them artistically. I take chances on the artistic part but I am as careful as I can be about their physical condition.

But, as you know, until they are cleaned and played, you never know what you have.

I have a rejection rate of about 15%. That's not too bad. I discard the rejects to the local thrift shop. But, I never buy from them. I am very picky about what I keep and where I shop.

I buy a lot of classical and jazz. I think the original owners take better care of their records than owners of other genre like rock and pop. That helps the reject rate.

The reason I am not considering buying a used SL1200 is, for me, they are not available. I refuse to buy a used turntable if it has to be shipped by the owner. That removes eBay and Audiogon as a source. I have been keeping an eye on Craigslist but, no joy. I live in the middle of nowhere. The closest possible used turntable source is a 2 hour drive away. The thrift shops are a possible source but it’s a crap shoot. Around here, they are a disaster. I know some folks find real gems. But the hit rate is very low. I don’t consider thrift stores a viable source.

I generally don't have anything against buying used. I have several used pieces (6, I think; roughly half) in my system. But turntables are a different story from electronics. They can be easily destroyed in shipping. It's just not worth the risk. Life is not long enough to endure the hassle.

And really, $400 for a new SL1200 seems like good deal for my purposes. I recently read someone who said, "There’s nothing like the smell of new electronics in morning." Well said. I laughed. This is especially true for turntables.

Sparky

I would pick up a USED TT and decent cart for about $200 or less just to test your LP's.

Being that you have (2) other high end TT's in the herd.

I bought my Denon DP-300F for $245 Brand New with a cartridge for general use.

Thanks,
John.:music:

I use my mmf-5 for the same purpose as you propose. Nothing wrong with the idea. The stock Goldring is a MM, though, so not what you are looking for.

I would second the Benz recommendation, as I have an Ace, and like it a lot.

+1 on the Benz.

The Grado Platinum will work very well on the Technics, though it may be a little "warm" for your taste. Also, the Denons should be a good match.
Bob

+1 on the Benz.

HI haka,
Which Benz? Why is nobody talking about the AT OC9?

Sparky

For testing records, a new Technics SL-1200 Mk II will be very nice. Get you a nice Audio-Technica AT 120 E/T cartridge to go with it. Under $500. I use this combo 5 days a week as my main turntable. I am a demanding old cuss. It satisfies me. Denon MC cartridges, Dynavectors, and Benz Micros are nice on this turntable and arm.

HI haka,
Which Benz? Why is nobody talking about the AT OC9?

Sparky
The Ace is what I seem to recall the most people liking the best from that budget point, but I've heard of others who like Gold and Silver.

I've never heard a negative word about the AT OC9--just don't remember Technics users specifically mentioning it. It's just one of those carts that isn't talked about much, but appears to be a real bargain. Just knowing that so many Technics users like another of the ATs, the AT440MLa, I'm guessing that the OC9 would also be a winner.

HI haka,
Maybe one reason is the OC9 is a low outout MC. For a $350 cartridge, the features are spectacular. It has a rather radical line contact stylus, just my cup of tea. The reviews have been excellent.

One major question I have is if the SL 1200's VTA adjustment feature is good enough to dial in the tone height to within .001 inch on a repeatable basis. This is the type of precision that is required by a line contact stylus. I can do this with my air bearing arms. Most arms are not capable of this precision. What about the SL 1200? I just don't know.

Proper VTA is important, especially for a line contact stylus and the adjustment must be made by ear. If the SL 1200 can't do it, and I doubt if it can, then perhaps I should settle for an eliptical shape. That opens the field a lot. I certainly don't know of another tone arm in the 1200's price class that even comes close to the quality of the 1200's VTA adjustor. But, it may not be good enough.

Sparky

Sparky, I can guarantee you that the topic of being able to adjust the Technics VTA to within .001" has never been discussed on AK. :D My guess is that it's not good enough.

I'll bite.

The VTA adjusment ring on the 1200Mk2 and above arm is the same as the one on my 1700Mk2, right? It is marked in millimeters, with 19 mm (as best I can measure) between the the millimeter marks. Moving the ring 19mm raises/lowers the arm 1mm.

By my calculation, 0.001 inches is about 0.0254 mm (close to 1/40 mm). So multiplying the 19mm by 0.0254 gives me 0.4826 mm. This means that moving the ring at the base of the arm a touch less than half a mm raises/lowers the arm 0.001 inches (depending on how accurate my 19mm measurement was).

Considering that the VTA can be carefully adjusted while a record is playing, you may be in business. You should be able to mark the sweet spot on the scale to move the VTA back there again.

So why don't you just hire someone to make one for you then?

HI SA,
Thanks for the work you put into my question. Your results are encouraging. Maybe I can buy line contact styli with some confidence that VTA can be properly adjusted.

I have never laid my hands on an SL1200 or its kin. I'm basing all my information on the very positive opinions the turntable has received on this and other forums. Thus, my uninformed questions. Thanks for putting up with me. I am learning.

Are the controls on the SL1200 smooth and silky? Typically the Japanese put a lot of effort into the ergonomics of their equipment. Is the SL1200 the same way? This is important when trying to hit an adjustment point.

BTW, the OC9 and the Denon MC cartridges both seem highly respected.

Sparky

So why don't you just hire someone to make one for you then?

HI,
Spoken like a Zappa freak. Nuff said.

Sparky

HI haka,
Maybe one reason is the OC9 is a low outout MC. For a $350 cartridge, the features are spectacular. It has a rather radical line contact stylus, just my cup of tea. The reviews have been excellent.

One major question I have is if the SL 1200's VTA adjustment feature is good enough to dial in the tone height to within .001 inch on a repeatable basis. This is the type of precision that is required by a line contact stylus. I can do this with my air bearing arms. Most arms are not capable of this precision. What about the SL 1200? I just don't know.

Proper VTA is important, especially for a line contact stylus and the adjustment must be made by ear. If the SL 1200 can't do it, and I doubt if it can, then perhaps I should settle for an eliptical shape. That opens the field a lot. I certainly don't know of another tone arm in the 1200's price class that even comes close to the quality of the 1200's VTA adjustor. But, it may not be good enough.

Sparky

Well i have a AT125LC with a line contact stylus and I've never had trouble dialing in the VTA on my SL1800MKII table with upgraded 1210M5G arm It has cardas wire and i'm using belden cables. So to answer you YES

And for around the same $349, I'd seriously consider the AT-150MLX, versus the AT-OC9. The 150MLX has a line contact Styli as well, Although not cheap, the Sylus is replaceable, and it might pleasantly surprise you. I've read a few users reviews, where they actually preferred this Cartridge versus the AT-OC9.

As for repeatable VTA to 001", trust me Karma, your ears, or any other user's ears on the planet, even "little Mikey Fremer", Mr "golden ears" himself, could never in thier lives hear the difference of .001" VTA adjustment on the back of the Tonearm. Do you know what this would equate to in terms of SRA angle at the Stylus?

I have no idea what this would be in angular difference, but trust, that there is not a Cartridge on the planet that is that sensitive to VTA, (or a user's ears who could hear it,) none of them, whether it was the ZYX UNIverse, or a $15K Koestu Coral, nothing is that sensitive, especially, not some lesser Cartridge in the $349 range.

Even if this second table you bought was a Galibier Stelvio Table, with $4500 Triplanar Arm on board, (and the ZYX UNIverse as your second Cartridge), which is very sensitive to VTA, one wouldn't need to resort to .001" on a repeatable basis. Realize that a human hair's thickness is .003".
Mark

It still won't sound as good as Live Music anyway so...

And for around the same $349, I'd seriously consider the AT-150MLX, versus the AT-OC9. The 150MLX has a line contact Styli as well, Although not cheap, the Sylus is replaceable, and it might pleasantly surprise you. I've read a few users reviews, where they actually preferred this Cartridge versus the AT-OC9.

As for repeatable VTA to 001", trust me Karma, your ears, or any other user's ears on the planet, even "little Mikey Fremer", Mr "golden ears" himself, could never in thier lives hear the difference of .001" VTA adjustment on the back of the Tonearm. Do you know what this would equate to in terms of SRA angle at the Stylus?

I have no idea what this would be in angular difference, but trust, that there is not a Cartridge on the planet that is that sensitive to VTA, (or a user's ears who could hear it,) none of them, whether it was the ZYX UNIverse, or a $15K Koestu Coral, nothing is that sensitive, especially, not some lesser Cartridge in the $349 range.

Even if this second table you bought was a Galibier Stelvio Table, with $4500 Triplanar Arm on board, (and the ZYX UNIverse as your second Cartridge), which is very sensitive to VTA, one wouldn't need to resort to .001" on a repeatable basis. Realize that a human hair's thickness is .003".
Mark

HI Mark,
You are wrong but it is not your fault. You just don't have a good reference point. The stylus must align precisely with the groove with fine line contact styli. A VERY small error is audible. I have proven it to myself many times. Most folks have never heard this effect so your skepticism is understandable.

Most folks don't believe this mainly for three reasons. First, most tone arms do not provide the necessary precision to make this adjustment. Mine do. Second, most folks don't use fine line contact styli. I do and have for over 40 years. I know them suckers. Third, pivoted tone arms do not define the sweet spot with any degree of definition. There are too many geometrical errors. But my linear tracking air bearing arms have essentially zero geometry errors and make the sweet spot easy to hear. The sweet spot is about +/-
.0015 of an inch around the central point or a total arm height of .003 inch. But to find the sweet spot .001 inch accuracy is needed.

I have one arm set up with a dial gauge accurate to .001 inch. It measures tone arm height at the air bearing. I can measure when the sweet spot is found and lost with great accuracy and repeatability. What I say is true.

On pivoted arms, I'm less sure about the needed accuracy. Until last year when I bought a Graham 2.2 Deluxe unipivot arm, I had not had a pivoted arm since 1974. It was an eye opener. The Graham has a wonderful micrometer style VTA adjustor, fully up to the job. But, I was not able to pin point an exact sweet spot setting. Rather, I found a range of settings. The VTA never "popped" in to focus like it does with my air bearing arms. From this I concluded that a pivoted arm never places the stylus exact in alignment with the groove.

Once heard, the sonic benefits of properly adjusted VTA are obvious and hard to do without. Thus, I replaced the Graham with another air bearing arm.

Sparky

Yes, on the contrary, I understand quite clearly. Consider other errors in an analog system, that have nothing at all to do with the Tonearm's VTA that will effect SRA,(Stylus Rake Angle) and an end user has little, to no control over.

To mention a few, those are Platter Runout, varying thickness of Records, and Record Warps.
Yes, I do understand those who feel a need to alter VTA on a per record basis, and can claim to hear the difference.

I have found +-.003" runout on my VPI MK-IV Platter, that's the best I can get it with Dial Indicator.
Thats pretty decent, but there's nothing one can do about slight record warpage, even though my platter does use a clamping system.

With that being said, VTA, and SRA Angle at the Stylus is changing at a considerably greater degree with the record is in play, than what a +- .001" vertical change at the rear of say a 10" Tonearm would cause. The Arm type in this instance would have no bearing on this VTA-SRA variance.

VTA-SRA is then changing constantly ever so slightly, and that would mean, (if one was so sensitive to this effect) that one would then be hearing parts of a record that is acceptable, and then another 1/3 of the LP would sound atrocious.

I would truly like seeing some math figures, with say a 10" Pivotal Arm, of exactly what variance of SRA Angle difference there would be in degrees, with a .001" change of VTA adjustment? Mark

HI Mark,
Believe what you want. It is out of your control. You do not have the equipment to persue the investigation. You must remain in the world of opinion and speculation. Sorry.

Concerning warps. I have a vacuum turntable. Most warps are not there. End of story.

IN BIG LETTERS: I do not want to divert this productive thread into a discussion of VTA. Thank you.

Sparky

Edited to correct spelling (same old story)

HI Mark,
Believe what you want. It is out of your control. You do not have the equipment to persue the investigation. You must remin in the world of opinion and speculation. Sorry.

Concerning warps. I have a vacuum turntable. Most warps are not there. End of story.

IN BIG LETTERS: I do not want to divert this productive thread into a discussion of VTA. Thank you.

Sparky

Well, my beliefs are, you've created-designed a problem when there isn't one.

You brought these issues into this thread, so don't go running just yet sir, with "end of story", when another calls you on what you wrote.

I would truly like you to run this sort of topic in another forum, audiogon, as there are people there who just might enlighten us both?

Getting back on topic sparky, you made mention of wishing this degree of precision with a second turntable, not your main table, so, lets forget about your main table for the moment, with Linear Arm, Vacuum Platter, etc. I'm of the belief you're not going to find this precision with a Technics, so with that said, will you be happy?

It was you, not any of us, who claimed you needed such precision in a second table. Now should I say "end of story"?

I would truly like seeing some math figures, with say a 10" Pivotal Arm, of exactly what variance of SRA Angle difference there would be in degrees, with a .001" change of VTA adjustment? Mark

IIRC, raising a 300mm arm (12 inch) 1mm changes the SRA by 0.19 degrees. So moving it .001" changes the SRA by .001x25.4x0.19=.0048 degrees. A 10 inch arm would increase the SRA change by 18% so 1.18x.0048=.0057 degrees.

edit: I thought about it while driving to pick up my daughter and I think the formula would be:

sine^-1[.001/10]=.00573 degrees.

Hey, the other cart you could try for your Technics set up is one that I'm having a great deal of fun with right now. Its contained in this thread, but it sounds dynamite, and its relatively cheap:

http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=223174

HI,
Well, it's an MM, a strike against it. Did you purchase any of the Shibata options? Could you describe what is sounds like? In your referenced thread, you did not own the cartridge at that time. So, you were speculating about its performance. Now you can tell us with real knowledge. What can you compare it to?

Sparky

Maybe my thread wasn't clear. I own a Stanton 881S, and a Pickering XSV-3000. Both are cousins of the Stanton 980 cartridge. I own the Pickering D22S stylus which is a Stereohedron, the Stanton D81S, which is also a Stereohedron, and the Shibata option from Jico. So, at the time I wrote the post, I had just taken delivery of the 980, and was attempting to give some first impressions.

I'm certainly familiar with the sound that my 881S and XSV-3000 are capable of, and have those as benchmarks for the 980. I've used both the Shibata and the D22S with the 980, and the combination renders very, very pleasing results. Since the D22S is no longer available, I can certainly suggest the Shibata, which is the combo I'm listening to currently.

I've heard some very good MC cartridges, but would not consider myself an authority on any cartridge. However, MC cartridges are noted for their smooth mid and high end response, with the better MC carts also achieving refinement in the bass region. I'd say the 980/Shibata combo had a near MC like quality in the mids, a very refined low end, and and extended, though not pronounced high end. The cartridge renders musical detail that I just don't get with other carts I've had in my system. It is also very non-fatiguing - I could listen for hours if I had the time, and not become irritated with any aspect of the sound.

I hope this helps a bit more. For the $170 or so invested, I'd put this combo up against carts I've heard that cost 3 or 4 times as much, and it would not embarrass itself at all.

HI Folks,
Well, it looks like this thread is running out of steam. I want to thank you all for your ideas, opinions and experience. I appreciate it very much. You have given me much to ponder.

Sparky

My suggestion would be to find a store that stocks 1200s (such as an instrument store supplying turntablists) and lay your hands on a store model, get first-hand experience in how the controls work and feel between the different models.

HI SA,
Hah!! You must live in a big city. Not much available around here, the middle of frontier America. I'm forced to depend on you good folks.

Sparky

Big city? Northeast Tennessee? To see a 1200 at a retail store would take me 100 miles west to Knoxville or 70 miles south to Asheville. When I was shopping for one last year I was looking at mailorder from KAB USA.

HI SA,
Yes, I feel your pain. The up side is there is nothing much else here either.

Sparky

Ok, I'll bite, and re-kindle your thread.
Let's drop everything discussed before, because maybe folks want to avoid this thread, when it became sidetracked about VTA issues.

Let's establish some facts. You want a great second table, but we can assume you're not looking for a reference table, yet one which is still pretty impressive, and enjoyable. We've determined that you aren't too enthused about buying second hand, and I can totally 100% agree with you about flea-bay, and the snapper-heads who couldn't pack thier mother's underwear to make a safe trip to you.

You're a handy dude, have you seen that Wally-World supposedly sells Technics 1200's? The other option, is stop on down to the Duke City, call first, and see if Guitar Center wants to cut you a break on a new 1210 "whatever". Yep, I totally understand, cash on the barrel, you look, you like, you buy. I'm like this.

The Aesthetix Rhea is one hell-of-a Phono Stage, and again, I don't blame you for pre-auditioning thrift find LP's,before they reach a reference MC cartridge, that cannot be re-tipped, without great expense.

I do not know your reasoning for being so "standoffish" towards MM Cartridges?

Yes, I know, we are in the "Land of Shit" as far as finding superb garage-thrift sale finds. This isn't exactly Florida, or Califonia, where people move, drag thier sweet vintage gear from some other state, and then hold a garage sale, with sweet Denon DP-60L Tables, with a mint Shure V-15 Type III on board for $20.

But, they're out there, but it is certainly becoming less, and less easy to find. That Table-Cartridge I mention above would be a delite for a second table. You profess to be electronics guru, I'm sure you know, such a set-up would work, and sweetly, you won't be having to worry about .001" repeatable VTA, which even Micrometers, and Dial Indicators cannot do, unless you wanna spend $1K for a Micrometer.

I'm just trying to bring some sense to this thread.
Your desires were to find a really nice second table, and cartridge. I sort of understand your purpose, that after you find a pristine copy of say the Mammas, and Pappas, or Mozart, that you want this second table to cause no harm to a mint find. Then onto whatever cleaning regimem you decide upon, clean all the peripherals up (Jacket, new Sleeves, etc) then onto nirvana with your good Table, and lay back, pop a cold one, and say "oh man, it just doesn't get any better than this!, so sweet!"

This has probably been mentioned before, but one wise play, would be used, if you can inspect before laydown of money. If you don't like, but it is a super clean example, more than likely, the table can change hands again, without you out of any money.

I know the Rhea can deal with MM, and you mentioned the ARC Pre as well, so there's no problem with MM.
You'll likely find the cheap-end of MC is a horrid nightmare, and a pothole of shit to be in, with a new MC you may not like, and should be avoided like the plague.
PS: No offense Karma, but I will not respond to private mails from you. Let's keep this in the open, where all stays "repspectable". and no personal insults take place, we've gone this route before. Mark

HI Mark,
The only thing you said that I don't agree with is the part about inexpensive MC's being horrid. Do you know this for a fact? Do you have personal experience? I don't. But the reason is I just don't have any experience in this price range. That's why I started this thread.

I have web researched the AT OC9 and it has had excellecnt reviews from people I respect. As far as choosing between MM's and MC's, all else being equal, I would take an MC in a heartbeat. But all things are not equal. There are good and average of both types.

As far as buying a turntable used, I don't have a problem with it. I just don't want to ship one. So, unless I come up with something I like used in the Thrifty Nickel or in one of the local shops (there are not many), I will buy new. Do remember, saving money is not my top priority. I just don't want to spend more than $1000, preferably less.

Why does everybody want to save my money? It is my money, after all.

Sparky

So, I am considering buying a brand new Technics SL1200 Mk 2 turntable and equipping it with a decent, not too expensive, cartridge.

I don't want to spend more than $500 for the cartridge, less would be better.

I need to hear your opinions about cartridges in the $300 to $500 dollar range that would work well on the SL1200 arm.

Yep, buy brand new and no hassle.

I don't know if it's right or wrong, but I've tried Dyna 20XL and 20XH on that arm, and they both worked well on that arm for me. Just close to your upper range.

Still, compared to your other gear, it may not give you enough of an idea if the disc is a keeper or not, can't possibly comment on that.


BTW, what is the dust cover story on the SL1200? I definitely want one.

Not sure what you mean, but mine came with one. No hinges though. Dont care since it's easier to use by just taking it off and out of the way when spinning.

Yep, buy brand new and no hassle.

I don't know if it's right or wrong, but I've tried Dyna 20XL and 20XH on that arm, and they both worked well on that arm for me. Just close to your upper range.

Still, compared to your other gear, it may not give you enough of an idea if the disc is a keeper or not, can't possibly comment on that.




Not sure what you mean, but mine came with one. No hinges though. Dont care since it's easier to use by just taking it off and out of the way when spinning.

Not a doubt in mind, that that would be a very superb combo. As others have touched on here, they should be so lucky to have such a set-up as thier first table.
Bravo! Mark

HI Mark,
You never answered my question about horrid MC's. Do you or do you not know what you are talking about or is this just more speculation? Your statement certainly flies in the face of what many others in this thread have said and what I have read on the net.

Another way of putting it is asking if you have ever owned a low output MC in any price range?

Sparky

HI jFine,
I have owned several Dyna cartridges over the years. They are not my favorites. As I remember, they lack finesse in the upper range. They do have detail without end. I probably will not go in that direction.

As for getting an absolute reading on the quality of a new record, I don't think it will be problem. But it is one reason I want to go with a line contact stylus. My expensive cartridges are all line contact. I think, but without proof, this will give me a better reading. At least, I think it will be more enjoyable. I like line contact styli a lot.

I guess I can live without hinges. The picture I saw at Newegg showed the dust cover at an angle which implied that is is hinged. I have had turntables without hinges on the dust cover and I made do. Lots of people prefer taking the dust cover off while playing records claiming that the cover resonates. I have never heard this effect so I don't worry about it. I will check into it at Newegg.

Sparky

I can see where all this is heading, you want a cheaper turntable to test records on but at the same time you can't stand "a cheaper turntable".

Which I can see you won't be happy with any way.

So just bite the bullet and buy something like you have and only use it for testing.

End of problem.

Some people seem to have an attitude problem with the OP's budget. WTF? I'd go with the Benz suggestions , as well as the better Denons. The guy asked for cartridge input , not a class-warfare assault on his ability to pay. Sheesh.

HI Mark,
You never answered my question about horrid MC's. Do you or do you not know what you are talking about or is this just more speculation? Your statement certainly flies in the face of what many others in this thread have said and what I have read on the net.

Another way of putting it is asking if you have ever owned a low output MC in any price range?

Sparky

Ok Karma, now I have to take the gloves off.

You and I, are like oil, and water, Please don't ever refer to me in private message email as a mirror image of you, we are definitely NOT!

I own the Benz Ruby 3 (low output), and the ZYX Airy 3X (again low output) What do you own, that requires .001" VTA finesse? Nothing, I can assure you.

None of your Cartridges come up to the quality of either of these I own, and if you want to BS everybody here on A-Karma, well then be my guest, and tell us what you have?

There is usually no such thing as a "horrid" low output MC. Just try to find one under $1K. No, many low output MC's are NOT going to be to everyone's liking, but I assure you, my Benz Ruby 3, or Airy 3X isn't a Sumiko Blue Point Special in any sense of the word!

And guess what, that Fritz Gieger Styli on my Ruby 3, and the Stylus on my XYX are both line contact. Do tell us what you own? And of course, let's not "stretch" the truth. I'm betting either of these Cartridges I own, exceed anything you've ever owned in your life.

Don't BS me, and everybody else here that they need .001" precision VTA, as they most certainly don't. Your front end, from what I can gather is far from current state of the art. When you tell me you own a Walker Proscenium Diamond, then you might garner some respect from me.
A Sota, with ET-2 was "OK", but never a class A table-arm.

I've noticed you inquired on a-asylum, but you just happened to leave out any mention about your .001" fanatisism. Did you think people here are so far out of the realm, that we, or "I", would pass this by?

As I asked you, please post such .001" VTA malarky over on audiogon, and see what replies sprout?!

Your reposnses to me are not even worthy of rebuttal, your posts are so far off in outer space, I can only genuinely suggesting laying off the Purple Microdot for a few months, to come back down to earth.

This is about as nice, and "candy coated" as I can explain it to you.

And, a quick mention to the mods here, Toze, Bill, whomever, let's keep this forum at least "truthful".
What can you fellas offer with your experience? Or don't you have a say about these technicalities?

We'd like to see this forum have some posts about high quality analog playback, but let's keep things factual.
Mark

I can see where all this is heading, you want a cheaper turntable to test records on but at the same time you can't stand "a cheaper turntable".

Which I can see you won't be happy with any way.

So just bite the bullet and buy something like you have and only use it for testing.

End of problem.

HI,
Come on, don't be dumb. Are you trying to pick a fight? What's wrong with you? I am buying with my eyes open. I have a need and I can buy something decent for this specific purpose. I don't expect miracles. You get what you pay for. It's a cosmic law. I don't expect more. But I do want to do the best I can within my budget.

Is it totally beyond you ability to understand what I am trying to do? And that I know what I am doing (more or less)?

Sparky

But it is one reason I want to go with a line contact stylus. My expensive cartridges are all line contact. I think, but without proof, this will give me a better reading. At least, I think it will be more enjoyable. I like line contact styli a lot.

So I'm intrigued a bit. The AT150MLX, AT-OC9 MLII mentioned, are both advertised as MicroLine. Are these really a Linear Contact? The Dyna 20X series are MicroRidge, while more expensive Dyna's are Line/Linear Contact. MicroLine, MicroRidge, WTF?

Are there Linear Contacts out there for < 500? (Sorry I did look a bit but not extensively).

HI Mark,
Have it your way. I'll not fight with you. Others can make up thier own mind.

Sparky

Civility is central to what AK is supposed to be about. The "my d!@k is bigger than your d!@k" discussions belong on other forums, not here.

From my perspective, the OP asked a legit question. He's asked probing questions. Some folks feel threatened by probing questions, or simply believe that a question is a way to discount someone's post. That's not the case, here, at least not as far as I can see it.

However, let's try to refrain from passing judgment or dissing other folks gear, whether you think its better or worse than your own. Enjoy what you've got, and share other folks joy in their own stuff, period.

So I'm intrigued a bit. The AT150MLX, AT-OC9 MLII mentioned, are both advertised as MicroLine. Are these really a Linear Contact? The Dyna 20X series are MicroRidge, while more expensive Dyna's are Line/Linear Contact. MicroLine, MicroRidge, WTF?

All the stylus designs you mentioned really sprout from the same family tree. They're all ways of getting deeper into the groove to achieve quieter playback via less groove noise, and less groove wear.

Hello Karma,
I of course wish to get along with everybody here too, you included. Life's too short, and ememies are of course much easier to make than friends.

I don't doubt for a second your buying power. Many of us audio lovers, as well as other hobbyists have a relentless tendency to "force" ourselves to eat spam for 6 months, just so we can go out, and buy a $45K Ranger Bass Boat to fish in!

I, like others here, do wish you to be happy in a audio sense, and do hope you select the perfect choice that is "right" for you.

You're no dummy in any sense, just another rock headed music lover like I.

Maybe even consider a custom built table? You know wiring, and electronics, this part of the equation is not beyond you.

Many of these boutique tables, with an asking price of $10-$12K aren't all that special, when one analyzes the sum of parts. Mark

So I'm intrigued a bit. The AT150MLX, AT-OC9 MLII mentioned, are both advertised as MicroLine. Are these really a Linear Contact? The Dyna 20X series are MicroRidge, while more expensive Dyna's are Line/Linear Contact. MicroLine, MicroRidge, WTF?

Are there Linear Contacts out there for < 500? (Sorry I did look a bit but not extensively).

HI jFine,
It's hard to say. Ever since B&O introduced the first "line contact" stylus (I don't remember the actual name they used) in the 1970's for stereo use, there have been a variety of radical stylus shapes that came to market. Each manufacturer invented their own name but the shapes were very similar to the Shibata profile. In fact some people refer to all line contact shapes as Shibata shapes. In truth, there are variations but they are minor. The Shibata shape was invented to track 4 channel records which required frequency response up to 50 kHz. Only later was it realized that these shapes had major advantages for 2 channel stereo.

In general, line contact types are related to elliptical shapes but with sharper edges. Reducing the radius of the edges allow the stylus to "see" the highest frequency groove modulations. Also, because the edges are sharp, they would wear out records unless something was done to compensate. This was accomplished by changing the “V” (viewed from the front) angle of the stylus such that the contact to the groove was longer, top to bottom. With these two basic changes, the groove pressure remained about the same as a standard elliptical shape but with much better resolution.

All line contact styli have these features no matter what they are called. However, I'm sure there are subtle differences between the various shapes on the market. Without knowing the exact specifications, it is impossible to be more specific.

Sparky

Civility is central to what AK is supposed to be about. The "my d!@k is bigger than your d!@k" discussions belong on other forums, not here.

From my perspective, the OP asked a legit question. He's asked probing questions. Some folks feel threatened by probing questions, or simply believe that a question is a way to discount someone's post. That's not the case, here, at least not as far as I can see it.

However, let's try to refrain from passing judgment or dissing other folks gear, whether you think its better or worse than your own. Enjoy what you've got, and share other folks joy in their own stuff, period.

Agrred Whell, But I was specifically asked, and the "doubt" was made that I never owned a low output MC, or perhaps owned any that possessed a "Line Contact Styli".

I've actually owned more Cartridges with Line Contact-Micro Line-Shibata Styli than any other, when you consider the AT-14S, AT-15Sa, AT-20SLa, and even the Shure V-15 Type III, with Jico SAS Stylus.

Comments such as "you are wrong, but it's not your fault" written by the OP, insinuate that I'm stupid, and haven't a clue of what I speak, or state. Sorry sir, but I don't take lightly, being insulted in a worldwide public forum, which can be googled from now, to eternity, and let such pass without the community knowing my frank point of view, and the ability to defend myself, or debate, and try to sift through fact, and fiction.

I'm very thankful, and appreciative of audiokarma forums, that this still seems to be a venue that hasn't become "nazi-fied", in the sense that censorship can delete real human comments, and opinions, without being biased with the "let's blow sunshine up each other's dupas", so much like audiogon has turned into, where posts of paying member are the only ones that seem to make it to thier boards. Anyone with a difference of opinion, from the favored "pets" never make it to see public "light".

Just a curiosity, if I were to buy a new Technics 1200 from Wally World, or even say Guitar Center, they have a 30 day money back, correct? In that case, seems to be little risk of purchase to try? Mark

HI Mark,
You still have not justified your comment about the less expensive low output MC's.

If you really know something, I want to hear it.

Sparky

I'm a little late wading through this and man, if I cleaned up all the mud-slinging and bad attitude in this thread there would be nothing left!

Warning; if you guys can't play nice and stick on the OP's topic, this thread goes away (at the very least).

HI All,
As the owner of two very fine high end turntables, tone arms, and cartridges, I have the serious listening end of things pretty well covered. But I have a hole in my strategy. It is called USED RECORDS, LOTS OF THEM. The pile never seems to shrink. I currently have about 200 unplayed records on the shelf and no matter how hard I try to reduce the pile, I add just as many. It's a mania. I confess. My record collection is currently about 4500 LP's and it is still growing. It's toooo many. But I can't help myself. It's a mania.

The question I ask myself is whether I want to wear out my fine, expensive equipment to audition used records of unknown quality. The answer is easy; NO I DON'T!

So, I want to add a third record player that I would use exclusively for used, unknown records of questionable quality. I know I could buy a very cheap turntable or changer. I know this. Since I owned a Hi Fi repair shop for 13 years, I can fix anything. But I can't stand to do this. I am constitutionally built against paying good money for equipment I don't respect. Please don't argue against me. It won't do any good. I just can't do it. I won't do it.

So, I am considering buying a brand new Technics SL1200 Mk 2 turntable and equipping it with a decent, not too expensive, cartridge. I am willing to put $1000 into this little exercise. I'd rather put less into it.

I have an Aesthetix Rhea all tube phono preamp that will handle three turntables. The cartridges can be type mixed because each input can be individually programmed for gain and loading. Right now, I have two low output moving coils. The third could be either MM or MC. I don't want to spend more than $500 for the cartridge, less would be better.

I need to hear your opinions about cartridges in the $300 to $500 dollar range that would work well on the SL1200 arm. I am looking at the Audio Technica OC-9 which I note that I can buy at the Needle Doctor for $349. Denon and Grado are also on the list but I prefer MC's. I also prefer line contact styli which is one reason I am drawn to the AT OC9. But I am open to other ideas. I like a detailed and highly resolving sound.

I do not expect this cartridge to compete with my thousand dollar and up cartridges. But, I do want to be able to enjoy the listening experience. After all 200 (which never seems to reduce!) used records equals roughly 200 hours of listening time. I don't want it to be an ordeal.

BTW, what is the dust cover story on the SL1200? I definitely want one.

Your suggestions and experience is appreciated.

Thanks, Sparky

Sparky, who told you playing used records would wear out your gear? When you say it's two hundred hours play time, that on a high end turntable is nothing. My SL1200 has an expected life of over 30 years.

The SL1200 is an excellent table at the price point and mates well as luck would have it with Denon Cartridges. They make a range of low output moving coils and only moving coils for that matter.

You can go with that or just get another cartridge for one of your current tables, as you say you have around one thousand to spend so just buy another cartridge and all will be well.

Cheers.

You'll likely find the cheap-end of MC is a horrid nightmare, and a pothole of shit to be in, with a new MC you may not like, and should be avoided like the plague.

I understand this to a point. There are lots of fans of HOMC's like the Denon 110 and 160, or the Sumiko BPS. I'm thinking, however, that these comments are confined to the less expensive LOMC's.

The AT-0C9 is a cart that I've been tempted by, but those I've spoken to and the reviews I've seen have pretty mixed opinions about it. It tends to emphasize the mid and treble region, and on some systems this might be a good synergy, and on others it might sound artificial.

I've owned, and then parted with, the Denon Dl-103. My take on it is that it is somewhat seductive initially, but that wears off after a while. I'm not alone here, I think. There seem to be a fair number of them showing up in the used cartridge for sale areas of other forums. There's a small cottage industry of individuals and companies trying to make the cartridge into something it isn't. I did like the DL-301 a lot until I borked the cantilever!

These are a couple of examples that I'm aware of, and with all things audio, your millage may vary. Just a few examples of the mixed bag that exists below, I'd think, about $500 in the LOMC world.

My $0.02 is that less expensive LOMC carts as a general proposition are better than they used to be. However, the number of players making less expensive LOMC carts is a lot smaller than it used to be, too. Its only the bigger fish like Denon and Sumiko that can make a buck on an LOMC in the lower price ranges, would be my guess.

HI,
Come on, don't be dumb. Are you trying to pick a fight? What's wrong with you? I am buying with my eyes open. I have a need and I can buy something decent for this specific purpose. I don't expect miracles. You get what you pay for. It's a cosmic law. I don't expect more. But I do want to do the best I can within my budget.

Is it totally beyond you ability to understand what I am trying to do? And that I know what I am doing (more or less)?

Sparky

Not trying to pick a fight but you mentioned the SL1200 Mk2 and it has a very easy to adjust VTA but I sincerely doubt it would have accuracy in the vicinity of "one thou" so if that's what you would like it won't suffice.

You can adjust the VTA on the fly though. One thing it doesn't have and something you haven't mentioned at all is azimuth.

We have a guy on here who works for Soundsmith and he says it's very important, much more important that "one thou" VTA I would suspect on entry level turntables.

I just think you misread or misinterpreted my response that's all.

Sparky, who told you playing used records would wear out your gear? When you say it's two hundred hours play time, that on a high end turntable is nothing. My SL1200 has an expected life of over 30 years.

The SL1200 is an excellent table at the price point and mates well as luck would have it with Denon Cartridges. They make a range of low output moving coils and only moving coils for that matter.

You can go with that or just get another cartridge for one of your current tables, as you say you have around one thousand to spend so just buy another cartridge and all will be well.

Cheers.

HI Toad,
I'm not concerned about my turntables at all. I am concerned about my expensive MC cartridges. They do wear and can be damaged. They represent $2000 risks....each. I do worry and I'd rather not.

So, in effect, this project is partly for peace of mind.

Changing cartridges is a possibility. But why? Setting up a cartridge properly is labor intensive. And switching back and forth? On a moments notice? I'd rather not. Really, I have thought this out.

Honestly, I don't mind spending the money. Is that so hard to understand? I'm not rich but I can afford this.

Sparky

I understand this to a point. There are lots of fans of HOMC's like the Denon 110 and 160, or the Sumiko BPS. I'm thinking, however, that these comments are confined to the less expensive LOMC's.

The AT-0C9 is a cart that I've been tempted by, but those I've spoken to and the reviews I've seen have pretty mixed opinions about it. It tends to emphasize the mid and treble region, and on some systems this might be a good synergy, and on others it might sound artificial.

I've owned, and then parted with, the Denon Dl-103. My take on it is that it is somewhat seductive initially, but that wears off after a while. I'm not alone here, I think. There seem to be a fair number of them showing up in the used cartridge for sale areas of other forums. There's a small cottage industry of individuals and companies trying to make the cartridge into something it isn't. I did like the DL-301 a lot until I borked the cantilever!

These are a couple of examples that I'm aware of, and with all things audio, your millage may vary. Just a few examples of the mixed bag that exists below, I'd think, about $500 in the LOMC world.

My $0.02 is that less expensive LOMC carts as a general proposition are better than they used to be. However, the number of players making less expensive LOMC carts is a lot smaller than it used to be, too. Its only the bigger fish like Denon and Sumiko that can make a buck on an LOMC in the lower price ranges, would be my guess.

HI whell,
But we are not discussing the bottom feeders. We are talking about cartridges between $300 and $500, my original proposition.

Why is every one trying to save my money? I did not ask this. I don't even appreciate it. I have a budget. I'm willing to spend up the max. What's the problem? It seems very do-able.

Sparky

HI whell,
But we are not discussing the bottom feeders. We are talking about cartridges between $300 and $500, my original proposition.

I was responding to an open question about "cheap MC cartridges", not suggest a cartridge. Also, in your original post, you invited responses about the AT-OC9 which I responded to above, and does fall into the $300 - $500 range, and is generally thought of as an inexpensive LOMC, so I'm puzzled now why you're referring to it as a "bottom feeder", unless I'm misunderstanding your reference.

Why is every one trying to save my money? I did not ask this. I don't even appreciate it. I have a budget. I'm willing to spend up the max. What's the problem? It seems very do-able.

But that's not what you originally posted. Your original framework for inviting suggestions was:

So, I am considering buying a brand new Technics SL1200 Mk 2 turntable and equipping it with a decent, not too expensive, cartridge. I am willing to put $1000 into this little exercise. I'd rather put less into it.

I think my original suggestion of a 1210 M5G, and an Ortofon Pro 30 from KAB would have cost around "the max". You stated a preference for LOMC carts and also line contact styli, which the Ortofon Pro 30 is, though it is not LOMC.

So, since you said you'd rather spend less than the max, you invited opinions that would help you save money. So, why be surprised when folks suggest ways that you can spend less, or save money, on your selection? It might help to restate what it is exactly your parameters are.

HI whell,
Either I stated my case wrong or you misunderstood. I know the OC9 and the Denons are in the price range I am considering. But there are cheaper MC's. These I consider bottom feeders and I am not interested in them.

I think I made a mistake referencing you as a "money saver". I'm sorry. But I was getting very tired of many other posters who seem to think the only value worth considering is saving money. In truth, with this value system, a great hi fi system will never be put together.

I'm very much a believer in the old saw, "you get what you pay for". It's a cosmic law. The only shortcuts I recognize as viable is buying used or building yourself. But you have to do it smart. Used is always risky. I would never buy a used turntable unless it is local. DIY usually does not result in the state of the art. There are exceptions. Occasionally, a really bright person comes up with a brand new idea that is better, or less expensive, than what the market offers. In many cases the inventor starts a company and sometimes revolutionizes hi fi. But, in general, DIY is a money saving tactic. Nothing wrong with that. I have done it many times.

I have gone all these routes in my over 50 years in audio. Hopefully, I have learned a few things. One thing I have learned is, "you get what you pay for". Another is to have great sound, you need great equipment. Another is the system is only as good as the skill with which it is put together (synergy). And another is I know what I like. And another is how I want to spend my time. My time is running out.

Sparky

To the OP, are you going to clean these records before playing?

If not then you have the problem of doing irreparable damage to them from all the dust build up and crud that gets in the grooves over the years?

As we all know running a stylus on a record that has dust or other particles on it can ruin them forever and that's something no one would want.

I wash every record before I play it no matter what.

My suggestion is to get something like this:

http://www.needledoctor.com/Music-Hall-Turntable-MMF-5-1_2?sc=2&category=351

It comes with a nice cartridge, you are only "auditioning" them and it is a very good unit.

This is an example of the fare you will get within your budget. If something like this falls short then buy something more expensive.

It's a catch 22 situation for you, it seems you are used to high end equipment but you want something in the middle of the range. I go back to my original post that I believe in all honesty you won't be happy with something like this.

Cheers

HI HypnoToad,
What a strange moniker.

Really, you should read this entire thread because I am getting tired of repeating myself. I will indulge you.

I bought the VPI 16 when it first hit the market in about 1984. About a year later I upgraded to the VPI 17. I still have it and use all the time. Yes, I do wash every record before it is played and more. I have been doing it for over 30 years. Before that I hand washed. I'm not going to divert this thread into a discussion of the use of Last record preservative. Suffice to say that every record I keep gets Lasted. All 4500 of them.

Sparky

This is off topic but I was in a record store years ago.

There was a man talking to the owner about turntables his store was selling.

He was looking at two models from the same manufacturer with a substantial price difference between them.

It went like this:

I like the cheaper one because of the price, but the dearer one is more attuned to what I need.

The owner said then take the dearer one, the man replied but it's over my budget.

The owner then said well take the cheaper one then. The man replied but it's not what I want.

I still wonder to this day which one that man bought and if he was happy.

And another is how I want to spend my time. My time is running out.

Sparky

This sounds a bit ominous, but it does paint some of your previous posts in a new context if I'm reading your right.

I'd still suggest the Technics in my earlier post. The OM 30 would do a fine job if this table is not for your most critical listening. However, another good cartridge option would be the Denon DL-301 II. I think this can be found for a price that would keep the whole expenditure in the $1000 range, and its a LOMC to boot. Its a very nice sounding cart for about $350 or so - smooth sound that doesn't over-emphasize any particular part of the spectrum, save maybe a little bump in the mids.

This sounds a bit ominous, but it does paint some of your previous posts in a new context if I'm reading your right.

I'd still suggest the Technics in my earlier post. The OM 30 would do a fine job if this table is not for your most critical listening. However, another good cartridge option would be the Denon DL-301 II. I think this can be found for a price that would keep the whole expenditure in the $1000 range, and its a LOMC to boot. Its a very nice sounding cart for about $350 or so - smooth sound that doesn't over-emphasize any particular part of the spectrum, save maybe a little bump in the mids.

I often wondered about the Denon DL-301 Mk2.

I have a SL1200 Mk2 and it's probably a good match for it.

I like the sound of the DL-110 and when it wears out I may go for one of these.

Any idea on the differences?

HI whell,
Don't get the wrong idea. I'm not riding a wheel chair. But I am 68. I still have a normal job though retirement is definitely in view. I am in good shape with no chronic ills. My ears are still very good. Always have been. Statistically, I am in the window of old age fully aware we don't live forever.

One thing young people think is they will always be young; that they have infinite time to do what ever they want. I can't think that way. I tend to think short term. Sure, I may live to be a hundred (I hope not!!). Or, I may die tomorrow. You might too. The difference is, I know that. Age will change your point of view.

Ad I stil cn't spell wrth a dam!!

And do you know that I am very happy being old? It puts things into perspective.

Sparky

I often wondered about the Denon DL-301 Mk2.

I have a SL1200 Mk2 and it's probably a good match for it.

I like the sound of the DL-110 and when it wears out I may go for one of these.

Any idea on the differences?

I've heard the 301 II, but not the 110, so I can't comment on comparing.

The OP's original situation is exactly why I play all my used unknown vinyl on the little AT-PL120. I also spin 78's there. Never had an issue. It accepts universal headshells and cartridge swaps so I can put on a Grado Black or a Shure 97, AT13e, whatever to get a good sense of the record at hand. Then if I want to tape or something, once the LP has been re-cleaned again, I'll put it on the JVC QL-Y5F or the DUAL. Problem solved for $150 and you can't hurt it :)