I had some cartridge problems with an Elys2.

While it is being sorted out I decided to try what I had lying around. I had a Grado Green. Although I liked the sound it had the Grado hum. So I decided to try something else.

60 dollars for a Shure M97xE. Why not. Shures have been around forever and I have never used one.

Well it just arrived and I mounted it and I am listening to 'Swordfishtrombones' right now and it sounds pretty good right out of the box. And no hum!

I have no idea about overhang.

Any tips with this cartridge? Will it open up more? Does anyone use the brush thing?

What is your table?

G'day mate, the Shure M97xE is a cartridge with a unique ability to polarise opinion....some people love it and others hate it! I (mostly) love it! By the way, I always use the 'dynamic stabiliser' aka 'the brush'.

Getting the overhang correct is important with any cartridge including the M97xE. Here is some stuff that Ive written including some recent updates on the M97xE, that you might find useful and hopefully interesting. http://www.mds975.co.uk/Content/vinyl07.html Regards, Felix aka catman.

What is your table?

Rega P3-24 with external PSU and Groovetracer subplatter and counterweight.

The M97Xe is a good litle cartridge and after about 50 hours or so it will open up more and sound very nice.

G'day mate, the Shure M97xE is a cartridge with a unique ability to polarise opinion....some people love it and others hate it! I (mostly) love it! By the way, I always use the 'dynamic stabiliser' aka 'the brush'.

Getting the overhang correct is important with any cartridge including the M97xE. Here is some stuff that Ive written including some recent updates on the M97xE, that you might find useful and hopefully interesting. http://www.mds975.co.uk/Content/vinyl07.html Regards, Felix aka catman.

Reading right now. The protracter that came with the cartridge seems to have the hole punched a bit off. Please see attached picture.

Mmmmmm, yes the hole is slightly off. It should still be sufficiently accurate though, but perhaps you can improve the 'position' of the hole a little by widening it somewhat, or perhaps ask Shure for another one. Regards, Felix aka catman.

Use the protractor that came with the table (to use Rega alignment) or one of the Baerwald protractors you have. The arc protractors will set the overhang right.

Dunno if I would use the one that came with the cart. It's generic and doesn't know your effective length or anything.

G'day all, actually any two point protractor will be fine. Some tonearms are 'specific', but in 'most' cases any generic two point protractor will give correct overhang regardless of the tonearm used (with the occasional exception), if it is used correctly.

Sometimes the headshell used has insufficient travel in the slots for Baerwald alignment. If you have a Rega specific gauge or protractor, that will be fine. In any case, getting the overhang correct is extremely important for optimum playback quality. Regards, Felix aka catman.

Reading right now. The protracter that came with the cartridge seems to have the hole punched a bit off. Please see attached picture.
The Shure protractor is a Baerwald. I agree with catman--if you widen the hole and just use place it against the spindle so it's aligned, you should be fine. If you can't work with it, just download the Baerwald protractor from vinylengine.com.

Initially I used the protractor that came with the Rega P3-24 with the Shure. I just put a Baerwald Arc (for Rega) on and there was a difference in arc of about 1/2" between the two x's.

I had to pull the cartridge forward about 1/4" inch to hit both x's.

Normal for Shures and Rega arms?

Since the adjustment, sound stage seems to be better.

Before:
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=153031&d=1243987089

After:
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=153140&d=1244077106

Good little utility cartridge. The brush works well, but tracking force, as dialed, needs a bit more with the brush down. The M97 seems to like a different capacitance than 47K to really shine. I suspect those who aren't thrilled with it are running it at 47K and thinking it's a bit muddy (me included :(). But Catman's comments have me getting my SA-8800 rebuilt as it has adjustable phono (both cap and ind), so I'll be able to get a bit more out of it.

I never want to write off a cartridge w/o a fair "hearing" :) I've lived with it for a couple of years now, mostly doing duty on country and western, some blue grass, and the like. I swap carts when they don't seem to fit the LP. The Shure stays on the arm for a while and then gets bounced off when it runs over an LP that needs a bit more brightness. I do agree that it will sound better with time :)

Initially I used the protractor that came with the Rega P3-24 with the Shure. I just put a Baerwald Arc (for Rega) on and there was a difference in arc of about 1/2" between the two x's.

I had to pull the cartridge forward about 1/4" inch to hit both x's.

Normal for Shures and Rega arms?
No, two different sets of null points. The protractor supplied with the Rega is Stevenson. You used Baerwald which pushes the cartridge forward (and probably necessitated an slight angle adjustment, as well). If you were to use the Rega Stevenson Arc it would coincide with the protractor Rega included. But using Baerwald is fine.

No, two different sets of null points. The protractor supplied with the Rega is Stevenson. You used Baerwald which pushes the cartridge forward (and probably necessitated an slight angle adjustment, as well). If you were to use the Rega Stevenson Arc it would coincide with the protractor Rega included. But using Baerwald is fine.

I think it sounds better with the Baerwald Arc, or maybe it's breaking in.

Still trying to dial in the tracking force. I need to get a scale.

What is the skinny between the Stevenson and Baerwald?

Good little utility cartridge. The brush works well, but tracking force, as dialed, needs a bit more with the brush down. The M97 seems to like a different capacitance than 47K to really shine. I suspect those who aren't thrilled with it are running it at 47K and thinking it's a bit muddy (me included :(). But Catman's comments have me getting my SA-8800 rebuilt as it has adjustable phono (both cap and ind), so I'll be able to get a bit more out of it.

I never want to write off a cartridge w/o a fair "hearing" :) I've lived with it for a couple of years now, mostly doing duty on country and western, some blue grass, and the like. I swap carts when they don't seem to fit the LP. The Shure stays on the arm for a while and then gets bounced off when it runs over an LP that needs a bit more brightness. I do agree that it will sound better with time :)

I have a MX110, so I can't change that.

Yeah I knew that, but maybe your phono section is a bit better than most (yah think :)) and will get a fair bit of that cartridge anyway :)

I think it sounds better with the Baerwald Arc, or maybe it's breaking in.

Still trying to dial in the tracking force. I need to get a scale.

What is the skinny between the Stevenson and Baerwald?
Null points are the two places on the record where the distortion is the least. Stevenson and Baerwald had two different ideas of where those points should be in order to achieve the best overall sound over the course of playing an lp. Baerwald chose 66 and 121mm from the spindle; Stevenson chose 60 and 117. Doesn't look like much of a difference, but it translates into a difference of perhaps 2-4 millimeters in the position of the cartridge in the headshell.

What is the skinny between the Stevenson and Baerwald?

probably not enough to lose sleep over...:D

..long as you can achieve good alignment at both null points for either system...you're good to go.

don't worry if the cartridge offset angle is not parallel to the side of the headshell if you decide not to use the rega alignment system...

different null point systems result in different offset angles

probably not enough to lose sleep over...:D

..long as you can achieve good alignment at both null points for either system...you're good to go.

don't worry if the cartridge offset angle is not parallel to the side of the headshell if you decide not to use the rega alignment system...

different null point systems result in different offset angles

Agree totally!
And to add the confidence here:
I have used the Baerwald with great success in that the difference in sound quality from the system was instantly recognizable. This is not to say use one over the other. It is my experience and I will always use the Baerwald protractor.

baerwald works for me...

i 'notice' very minimal channel imbalance across a whole record side...although i do tend to fuss a little more over the inner null point alignment where it is more critical to the overall sound...

i squint directly down the front of that cantilever pipe as it rises from the diamond sitting on the null point and moves up into the cartridge body...trying to ensure it hovers directly above that line that runs from front to back through that null point..
its enough to give you a migraine and question your sanity sometimes...:D

but..the results are oh so worth it...

a little trick i found..is to lay some black electrical tape neatly about 0.5mm either side of the line that runs through each null point on the protractor..then squint at the cantiliver head on with one eye ..through a small tube of rolled up paper...

because the cantilever pipe is a line that rises up and away from the null point into the cartridge body... it is easier to see if it deviates either to the left or right by using the two edges of tape either side of the null point line to guage the distance between the cantilever and both straight edges of the tape...
viewed at through a short tube of rolled up paper gives a 'monoscopic' viewpoint which helps...one eye is better than two in this case..

ideally you shouldn't be able to see the null point line behind the cantilever pipe as it rises...and the slight gap between this line and the tape should be equal...

if you've got this far in terms of accuracy...you should be VERY close....
nasa technical department close...:D:D

cartridges with a long cantilever pipe like the at95e makes this method pretty good to use

baerwald works for me...

i 'notice' very minimal channel imbalance across a whole record side...although i do tend to fuss a little more over the inner null point alignment where it is more critical to the overall sound...

i squint directly down the front of that cantilever pipe as it rises from the diamond sitting on the null point and moves up into the cartridge body...trying to ensure it hovers directly above that line that runs from front to back through that null point..
its enough to give you a migraine and question your sanity sometimes...:D

but..the results are oh so worth it...

a little trick i found..is to lay some black electrical tape neatly about 0.5mm either side of the line that runs through each null point on the protractor..then squint at the cantiliver head on with one eye ..through a small tube of rolled up paper...

because the cantilever pipe is a line that rises up and away from the null point into the cartridge body... it is easier to see if it deviates either to the left or right by using the two edges of tape either side of the null point line to guage the distance between the cantilever and both straight edges of the tape...
viewed at through a short tube of rolled up paper gives a 'monoscopic' viewpoint which helps...one eye is better than two in this case..

ideally you shouldn't be able to see the null point line behind the cantilever pipe as it rises...and the slight gap between this line and the tape should be equal...

if you've got this far in terms of accuracy...you should be VERY close....
nasa technical department close...:D:D

cartridges with a long cantilever pipe like the at95e makes this method pretty good to use

Very nice writeup - Have you tried using a magnifying glass as well? I found it really helps and sighting other parallel objects as you have mentioned does as well.

haven't tried magnifying glass...but hm..magnifying glass at end of a tube sounds like an even better tool :thmbsp::D

haven't tried magnifying glass...but hm..magnifying glass at end of a tube sounds like an even better tool :thmbsp::D

I make sure the area is well lit then I hold a magnifier up to bring it all into view. It really helps alot and is fast. What's really cool is when you can see exactly what has to be done with the cartridge no guessing.

60 dollars for a Shure M97xE..... Any tips with this cartridge? Will it open up more? Does anyone use the brush thing?

After reading the opinion online that using the brush actually improves the sonic performance of the cartridge I decided to try it. I never got the chance to evaluate any improvements because the darned brush didn't allow the stylus to seat in the "run-in" portion of an LP. It would skate in to maybe the 3rd groove in the recorded area before seating so I raised the brush and never tried it again.

Before anyone asks, yes, I did increase the tracking force per Shure's recommendations. I might have been able to correct the skating problem by a further increase in VTF but I didn't want to do that.

I do like the cartridge, though.

John

Swordfishtrombones is a great record and to me sounds great played on anything!

In case you didn't know, your Elys2 if it uses the Rega 3 screw mounting method is automatically aligned to Stevenson Null points on your Rega and according to Rega so should any other cartridge you mounted to your turntable. Rega doesn't actually mention Stevenson by name but the last I measured, their protractor (same as you have) it measures the same as Stevenson's inner null point.

Using a different mounting method shouldn't hurt anything but will likely sound slightly different at different points along the LP. Depending on your taste and the cartridge in use, you may prefer one or the other method.

Nice tips Melofelo, you've given me some good ideas of marking up my protractor to aid alignments.

i ought to invest in one to save my eyes..:thmbsp:
the problem i always find, which led me to the tube of paper idea was that i wanted to have a very limited view of the cantilever itself and the tube allows me to focus a line of sight that is fairly straight...
otherwise..my eye tends to 'scan' either side of the cantilever pipe..which is what eyes do out of habit...
a bit left..a bit right..erm...? :scratch2:

i'll pick one up though..as i'm sure magnification can only help what is really a fiddly process...especially when one null point is a shade 'off' and you're fast running out of patience and headshell room..:D

at some point...i just admit i'm only human..tighten up at the inner null point...double check at the outer null point that its still aligned within a hairs width's tolerance of perfect

then i grab a beer and 'forgeddaboutit'...heh:D

i ought to invest in one to save my eyes..:thmbsp:
the problem i always find, which led me to the tube of paper idea was that i wanted to have a very limited view of the cantilever itself and the tube allows me to focus a line of sight that is fairly straight...
otherwise..my eye tends to 'scan' either side of the cantilever pipe..which is what eyes do out of habit...
a bit left..a bit right..erm...? :scratch2:

i'll pick one up though..as i'm sure magnification can only help what is really a fiddly process...especially when one null point is a shade 'off' and you're fast running out of patience and headshell room..:D

at some point...i just admit i'm only human..tighten up at the inner null point...double check at the outer null point that its still aligned within a hairs width's tolerance of perfect

then i grab a beer and 'forgeddaboutit'...heh:D

Another trick is to take that LP you have with the sibilance (we all have one) and when you are done with the calibration see if it sounds better. It usually will. I use my Verve release of Quiet Nights to test all my calibrations. If she spits less at me I call it a day! :yes:

You guys will probably laugh but I use a head mounted OptiVISOR with dual 5x magnification lenses in combination with a hand held magnifying glass and LOTS of light. My wife says I look like a 'mad scientist'. :D

Hey ChairSpud, well as my close up eyesight is poor thanks in part to type 2 diabetes, I also have to wear those magnifying helmets as well!

They are also necessary for my DIY construction work as I can no longer really see the circuit board properly for soldering purposes without additional magnification. Regards, Felix aka catman.

You guys will probably laugh but I use a head mounted OptiVISOR with dual 5x magnification lenses in combination with a hand held magnifying glass and LOTS of light. My wife says I look like a 'mad scientist'. :D

Not laughing at you at all - you know what you are doing. :yes:

It's so much better when you have light and can see detail in the work.
You are a mad scientist...

Hey ChairSpud, well as my close up eyesight is poor thanks in part to type 2 diabetes, I also have to wear those magnifying helmets as well!

They are also necessary for my DIY construction work as I can no longer really see the circuit board properly for soldering purposes without additional magnification. Regards, Felix aka catman.

that makes 3 us wearing the mad scienctist head gear :D

Hey ChairSpud, well as my close up eyesight is poor thanks in part to type 2 diabetes, I also have to wear those magnifying helmets as well!

They are also necessary for my DIY construction work as I can no longer really see the circuit board properly for soldering purposes without additional magnification. Regards, Felix aka catman.

Sorry to hear of your situation Felix but at least for now you have your magnifying helmet, and yes those pesky circuit board components never mind the almost invisible surface mounted ones.

Not laughing at you at all - you know what you are doing. :yes:

It's so much better when you have light and can see detail in the work.
You are a mad scientist...

Ron, more likely learned from my mistakes than really know what I'm doing, just like a true 'mad scientist'!

that makes 3 us wearing the mad scienctist head gear :D

John, wouldn't we all be a funny sight!

I use a 6x "Linen Tester" when doing alignments with my mirrored protractor. Works well and really helps.

I have found that it's very easy for the stylus to slightly move from the indicated protractor null point (s) thereby screwing up the alignment. A very small indentation at the protractor null point (s) with a tiny nail or such solves the problem. FWIW

agreed...
piercing the centre of the null point with a pin also qualifies for the 'mad scientist' technique too...:thmbsp:
another tip is to use a small blob of blu tack to temporarily station the platter relative to the turntable base once the diamond tip is on either null point...
less chance of that stylus slipping when things get fiddly..:D

When using the two point protractor such as the Baerwald that came with the Shure M97xE, where do you place the protractor on the platter if you don't have an overhang gauge on the turntable and are trying to set the overhang and azimuth?

So far I have set the overhang using built in gauges. I get lost when I don't have one I have no idea where the cartridge belongs or where to place the protractor on the platter to begin.

G'day mate, I'm not sure that I fully understand your question as I use the Shure Baerwald two point protractor gauge to set both overhang distance and 'alignment' (zenith angle?) by careful visual sighting as per the technique I arrived at here. http://www.mds975.co.uk/Content/vinyl07.html

The two point protractor allows everything to do with the tonearm and cartridge geometry to be set up optimally. Have I misunderstood your question? Regards, Felix aka catman.

G'day mate, I'm not sure that I fully understand your question as I use the Shure Baerwald two point protractor gauge to set both overhang distance and 'alignment' (zenith angle?) by careful visual sighting as per the technique I arrived at here. http://www.mds975.co.uk/Content/vinyl07.html

The two point protractor allows everything to do with the tonearm and cartridge geometry to be set up optimally. Have I misunderstood your question? Regards, Felix aka catman.

Everyone misunderstnds my question. Everyone. I guess I do not get what overhang is. And whenever I restate the question I get a very detailed in depth description that misses my point.

I have used "overhang" gauges that come with some of my tables to set the stylus DISTANCE from the pivot. This gives the starting position for the cartridge in the heardshell. Then I place the protractor on the turntable and bring the stylus in to the first null point. I then slightly turn the cartridge body in the headshell to bring the cantilever as close to parallel with the protractor lines as I can possibly see using a magnifier. I then position the cartridge body over the inner null point and readjust ever so slightly if needed. Then I go back and check the first then back and check the second until the cantilever is parallel to the lines at both points. I use the Shure two point and slightly turn the platter to reach each point for alignment.

Now, did I do it correctly?

If I did not have the "overhang" gauge that came with my table (like the Marantz 45 rpm spindle with crosshair) where would I initially place the cartridge in the headshell to begin the alignment? Somewhere in the middle like your article says? Will that position (distance to arm pivot) then have to be corrected (not the rotation of the cartridge) while I try to get the cantilever parallel at both null points? What is the Overhang then? The distance to the arm pivot or the cartridge azimuth? Or is it BOTH?

I don't care if it is Baerwald, Stevenson or Molly Brown. Will the protractor eventually place that cartridge at the same point the overhang gauge did? IF I had no gauge. This is to the point of nausea....

Okay let's take it step by step.

1. There is nothing wrong with using an overhang gauge to start the alignment, but it isn't necessary. As Catman's article states, you start somewhere in the middle. You move to the first grid, put the stylus on the crosshairs and make the cartridge parallel. You move the the other point and readjust. Each time you go back and forth you hone in on the exact position. Don't worry about the distance from the pivot to the stylus. You will always end up at the same position with that particular protractor no matter where you start. Don't believe it? Try it.

2. The name "overhang gauge" is misleading. It should be called an "alignment gauge." It is a shortcut to alignment. It's INSTEAD of a protractor. There are different ways of achieving alignment. One is a protractor. Another is a guage. The gauge usually sets up the cartridge with the geometry the manufacturer had in mind. That means that the distance from the pivot to the stylus will be what the manufacturer published. The protractor sets it up the way the protractor designer had in mind. The stylus to pivot distance will NOT be as the manufacturer published. It will be different. That's because you're using different geometry. Each will result in a different cartridge position. That's just the way it is. The cartridge position will be different depending on the method you use. And Baerwald, Stevenson, and Molly Brown each used different geometry, so each will result in a different cartridge position. What you have to understand is that there is no single correct cartridge position.

I don't want to bog you down with the theory, just to say that there are two places on the record where the distortion is the lowest, called the null points. Baerwald, Stevenson, Molly Brown and others (including tt mfrs) had their own ideas of which two points produced the least distortion and best overall sound over the entire play of an lp. That's why each method results in a different cartridge position, and that's how more than one position can be correct. It's because it's based on some guy's opinion, not some rigid algorithm.

3. Overhang is in reality the distance between the center of the spindle and the stylus when the arm is over the spindle. When used, the manufacturer's gauge will result in the overhang as published in the literature. When a different alignment method is used, the overhang will be different than the published number. That's just the way it is. Again, different geometry, different overhang.

4. Azimuth has nothing to do with cartridge alignment. It is the tilting of the cartridge up to the right or left as you look at the cartridge from the front.

I'm getting ready to put my 30 year old SL-1300 back in service. This thread makes me confident that I can do it right~

Okay let's take it step by step.

1. There is nothing wrong with using an overhang gauge to start the alignment, but it isn't necessary. As Catman's article states, you start somewhere in the middle. You move to the first grid, put the stylus on the crosshairs and make the cartridge parallel. You move the the other point and readjust. Each time you go back and forth you hone in on the exact position. Don't worry about the distance from the pivot to the stylus. You will always end up at the same position with that particular protractor no matter where you start. Don't believe it? Try it.

2. The name "overhang gauge" is misleading. It should be called an "alignment gauge." It is a shortcut to alignment. It's INSTEAD of a protractor. There are different ways of achieving alignment. One is a protractor. Another is a guage. The gauge usually sets up the cartridge with the geometry the manufacturer had in mind. That means that the distance from the pivot to the stylus will be what the manufacturer published. The protractor sets it up the way the protractor designer had in mind. The stylus to pivot distance will NOT be as the manufacturer published. It will be different. That's because you're using different geometry. Each will result in a different cartridge position. That's just the way it is. The cartridge position will be different depending on the method you use. And Baerwald, Stevenson, and Molly Brown each used different geometry, so each will result in a different cartridge position. What you have to understand is that there is no single correct cartridge position.

I don't want to bog you down with the theory, just to say that there are two places on the record where the distortion is the lowest, called the null points. Baerwald, Stevenson, Molly Brown and others (including tt mfrs) had their own ideas of which two points produced the least distortion and best overall sound over the entire play of an lp. That's why each method results in a different cartridge position, and that's how more than one position can be correct. It's because it's based on some guy's opinion, not some rigid algorithm.

3. Overhang is in reality the distance between the center of the spindle and the stylus when the arm is over the spindle. When used, the manufacturer's gauge will result in the overhang as published in the literature. When a different alignment method is used, the overhang will be different than the published number. That's just the way it is. Again, different geometry, different overhang.

4. Azimuth has nothing to do with cartridge alignment. It is the tilting of the cartridge up to the right or left as you look at the cartridge from the front.

Very nice Howard you have cooked the goose finally for me. The protractor will eventually position the overhang where it needs to be but also we use it to align the azimuth which is critical. Where we start is relative to the protractor used. Where it is placed on the record will not matter either as we have chosen a relative centering of the cartridge as a starting point and then will just move out to the null point and move the protractor to meet the stylus. Then tweak the angle. Got it...


But we use the protractor to set both the overhang and the azimuth as I am understanding. I know you see now what was confusing me. You covered it in #1. The rest is very well written. I heard you say once to use a stevenson on the Marantz.

Thanks this was a real clarification I think missing from all discussions where the info is assumed to be known.

I'm getting ready to put my 30 year old SL-1300 back in service. This thread makes me confident that I can do it right~

I know what you mean it seems each time we get into this it just gets lighter and easier to feel confident.

But we use the protractor to set both the overhang and the azimuth as I am understanding.
Ron, you keep bringing up azimuth. The protractor has nothing to do with azimuth. I began wondering if maybe I had it wrong so I looked it up. This site explained it exactly as I did. It has to do with the tilt of the cartridge when looked at from the FRONT. Scroll down to the section on azimuth.

http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/cartbasics.html

http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z81/hakaplan/azmuth2.jpg

thanks for the run down there howard. As someone who hasn't setup many tables set this helped quite a bit to understand the terminology.

Great info Howard!

The only thing I'd like to add is what gives me the most difficulty, which way do you turn or move a cartridge to achieve perfect alignment. Sometimes the cart needs to be slid forward or backward and sometimes it needs to be (when viewed from above) twisted clockwise or counterclockwise and sometimes both. This is what I do for a two point alignment with a protractor, the kind with several lines you lay down on the platter.

First measure the inner null point (INP) and determine if the cartridge is off clockwise (CW) or counterclockwise (CCW) when viewed from above. Do the same for the outer null point (ONP).

If the cartridge INP is off CCW and the ONP off CW then the cartridge needs to be slid backwards, a twist of the cartridge CCW may be necessary too for final or fine adjustment to perfect alignment.

If the cartridge INP os off CW and the ONP off CCW then the cartridge needs to be slid forward, a slight twist of the cartridge CW may be necessary too for final or fine adjustment and perfect alignment.

How much a cartridge needs to be slid or twisted depends on how far the alignment is off when measured against the the protractor null points. The further off, the greater the adjustment and it usually takes repeating these steps a few times over to get a good alignment.

I hope that made some sense and helps.

Ron, you keep bringing up azimuth. The protractor has nothing to do with azimuth. I began wondering if maybe I had it wrong so I looked it up. This site explained it exactly as I did. It has to do with the tilt of the cartridge when looked at from the FRONT. Scroll down to the section on azimuth.

http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/cartbasics.html

http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z81/hakaplan/azmuth2.jpg

Howard I have had the term azimuth confused with the lining up of the cantilever with the protractor parallel lines at the null points. I think that is a Zenith adjustment? at any rate I almost feel that most people are using the term OVERHANG to refer to the entire procedure. Position from spindle and angle of cantilever. We move the cart back and forth and rotate it to agree with the lines on the protractor grid. What really screwed me up initially was the term "overhang" and all the other adjustments rolled into one. As you know I have alignment gauges on most of my tables. The protractor I thought was for only aligning the cantilever with the grooves of the record at the null points. I see now what azimuth really is and watch that too. I still think Overhang is just the distance from the stylus to the tonearm pivot. All the other adjustments are something else entirely.
Thanks again.

Is there a dvd that makes any of this clearer?

First measure the inner null point (INP) and determine if the cartridge is off clockwise (CW) or counterclockwise (CCW) when viewed from above. Do the same for the outer null point (ONP).

If the cartridge INP is off CCW and the ONP off CW then the cartridge needs to be slid backwards, a twist of the cartridge CCW may be necessary too for final or fine adjustment to perfect alignment.

If the cartridge INP os off CW and the ONP off CCW then the cartridge needs to be slid forward, a slight twist of the cartridge CW may be necessary too for final or fine adjustment and perfect alignment.

How much a cartridge needs to be slid or twisted depends on how far the alignment is off when measured against the the protractor null points. The further off, the greater the adjustment and it usually takes repeating these steps a few times over to get a good alignment.

I hope that made some sense and helps.

Good day everyone!

I have set up many tables now and I always stumble around this one. I knew there had to be a rule but never wrote down my findings after making an adjustment. Sometimes I end up having to go back the other way and it always pissed me off. Thanks for the time saving tip!

This thread title is missleading!! I had no idea I was going to get all this great info!

I still think Overhang is just the distance from the stylus to the tonearm pivot. All the other adjustments are something else entirely.
Thanks again.
No, the true definition of overhang is the distance between the spindle and stylus tip when the arm is over the spindle. It's the distance the stylus "hangs over" the spindle. When the mfr publishes an overhang of 15mm, do you really think he means the distance between the pivot and stylus? The distance from the pivot to the stylus is called the effective arm length. And you'll see a published length of 230mm, for example for Technics. Yes, if the EAL increases by 2mm, so will the overhang, obviously, but you should use the correct terms.

Hey all I do is set the stylus at 50-mm from the bottom of the headshell and I'm good to go. Once thing I don't want to do is constantly mess with stuff. If I wanted that I would buy a PC. My stereo sounds just fine to me without dickering around with a protractor and all that stuff.

As long as it sounds good :)

No, the true definition of overhang is the distance between the spindle and stylus tip when the arm is over the spindle. It's the distance the stylus "hangs over" the spindle. When the mfr publishes an overhang of 15mm, do you really think he means the distance between the pivot and stylus? The distance from the pivot to the stylus is called the effective arm length. And you'll see a published length of 230mm, for example for Technics. Yes, if the EAL increases by 2mm, so will the overhang, obviously, but you should use the correct terms.

Howard,

I meant the Spindle - sorry about that.
Thank you for setting me straight.
Ron

Hey all I do is set the stylus at 50-mm from the bottom of the headshell and I'm good to go.

I don't think that's a universal and don't think 50 mm would necessarily get you in the ball park on every table. The Pioneer tables I own all list a setup spec of 49 mm and I definitely use that as a starting point but it only gets me close (very close) and I still have to tweak it a little from there using a Baerwald protractor.

John

overhang is the distance left when you subtract the mounting distance from the effective length required for a stylus tip and cantilever to be exactly perpendicular at the two ( or one) null point 'intersecting lines' of a particular alignment system when the diamond is resting on the null point itself...

i.e.baerwald, stevenson, loefgren,thorens,rega or any other alignemtnt system will necessitate different overhang values in some cases..

the mounting distance is the distance from the centre of the spindle to the centre point of the horizontal bearings at the tonearm's pivot..

that mounting distance is fixed and is used to determine what pairs of alignment null point are possible with a particular tonearm's length...(to some degree what is possible also depends on the amount of fore-aft movement available in the headshell slots..and to a lesser degree but sometimes just as important..how far forward or backwards a stylus tip is in relation to the cartridge's fixing holes when secured to the headshell slots)

the 'effective length' is the straight line distance from the centre point of the tonearm bearings to the stylus tip...

overhang is 'effective length' minus 'mounting distance' for the successful achievement of a particular alignment geometry chosen for that arm...
whether by intent of the manufacturer... or.. if the arm allows such adjustments..by choice of the user..


overhang may vary slightly if you choose a different set of null points to align your cartridge than intended by the manufacturer..and the arm and cartridge design allows enough movement to achieve that..

offset angle..is the angle the cartridge ( or more accurately, the cantilever) will make in relation to the straight line of the 'effective length'