I was throwing some ideas around in the Nikon Flash thread. So I found a couple shots illustrating flash outside.

But I should warn everyone. I am not a tech guy. Photography is a lot of things to a lot of people. I am also a lazy photographer. Cheap. So in hindsight I am probably not the best suited for handing out advice. Plus as we all know photography is an art. What works for one will not work for another. That's what is appealing to me. "How the hell did he do that?"

Digital is different than film in my experience. I think digital is way more sensitive to the quality of light than film. With film you could blast the subjects outside in noon sun with flash on camera and it was okay. With digital it is surreal looking to me. Exposing for the sky and filling with flash. It takes a powerful light to fill multiple subjects at a distance of 15 ft while the lens is stopped down to say f11-f16 to get the sky. That means big flash units, external battery packs, more time, more gear, more money, less shots.

So I just avoid those shots like the plague. Or use the limitations. Illustrating the point are two shots from the same wedding. Shot in '07, July between 3-4pm. Crap, harsh light. The bride wanted shots in front of the handmade arch. The groomsmen wanted the Reservoir Dogs shot.

Because the SB-800 (on D200) couldn't fill that large of a group I didn't bother. At the time I was using a Joe Demb deflector. I bounced the flash, set on TTL-BL, into them and let the sky get blown out. Overexposed. With the bride the SB-800 could get the job done. But with the white fabric blowing I saw B/W. Since I knew I was pchopping these I blew the guys out a little as well and tried to get a flare in the lens. Increasing the contrast in pchop gives it kind of a pushed look. I loved pushing b/w film.

These shots won't win any points with the PPA. But these are what the Bride and Groom wanted. They were very happy with these and that's all that matters.

So how do I shoot outside. Ambient light whenever possible. But conditions are never in my favor. The Groom is a car guy. They had the car parked in the open shade. This shot is a few weeks old. Nikon D300 with the SB-900. Stock diffuser, flash at probably 75 degrees aims backwards over my shoulder set to TTL-BL. I rarely shoot straight TTL as the 900 ALWAYS blows out the shot and I have to stop it down.

The last shot illustrates bounce flash. There are a million ways to do it. And every photo is different. Step two feet left and the bounce may be different. So this is more of a feel kind of thing. The thing to understand though is NEVER point the flash directly at the subject with digital. Not unless you absolutely have to. Bouncing the flash turns the contrasty pinpoint of light into a source the size of the nearest wall. Or ceiling. Big, soft, pleasant light. Flower girl crashed at the end of the night in '07. SB-800 (on D200) set to bounce over my shoulder with the stock diffuser and set to TTL-BL. But the rig was vertical and the SB-800 only rotates one way. So the flash is to the right of the lens actually pointed up. Now this might set some diffuser guys off. I'm not debating the Fong Bong. I'm just attempting to illustrate bounce technique. It really is easy and the fastest way to set your shots apart.

Here is a real world application. Shooting this vintage stuff is a nightmare.

D300 & SB-900. First shot is ambient light. Second is direct flash on a bracket. Third is bounced 75 degrees over my shoulder. Last is flash bounced directly off the back wall. All with stock diffuser and flash set to TTL-BL.

Once again just showing the effects of bouncing a flash. That is all.

The wedding shot is everything at once. I double light the dance floor. So when I arrived I set up an Alien Bee (strobe light) by the Dj. Now I don't need a backdrop. The wall behind me is a bank of huge westward facing windows. The Alien Bee fills the background. So I meter for the window light using the Nikon D300's meter off my hand. Add a little fill flash with the SB-900 still pointed backwards over my shoulder. Still set to TTL-BL and still with the same stock diffuser. F4, 1/100, ISO 640, 5:45 pm a few weeks ago.

This thread posted on request.

Good examples of what can be done with the flash and bouncing the light. You are right about bouncing the flash, you do have to experiment with it, as changing the angle and direction does give different looks. I personally like using a soft soft box on my flash units.
I know different people have different ways of doing things. But, what ever works for you is the way to go.

When I finally had the opportunity to grab an SB-800, I jumped. My whole world changed that day.

http://www.rickvestal.com/RVestal_079.jpg

I personally like using a soft soft box on my flash units.
I know different people have different ways of doing things. But, what ever works for you is the way to go.

Exactly. And there is no set one way to do things. If the ceiling or walls are mirrored or a crazy color bouncing is a whole new ballgame. Also I must point out that I MUST use the diffuser. Or an Omni- bounce or something. Because the flash is going backwards and depending on the height and color of the ceiling there will be undesirable shadows under the eyes, etc. The diffuser throws light forward opening up the shadows while giving the subjects a nice eye light.

I'm from the the Vivitar 283 school of full power. Throwing the Thyristor thingie out. Stopping down with the lens vs distance. Zone focusing. And NEVER putting anything on the flash 'cause it robs power. Old habits...

Having said that I've been told to check out this by a PPA Master Photographer.
http://www.harbordigitaldesign.com/ultimatelightbox.aspx

Thoughts?

When I finally had the opportunity to grab an SB-800, I jumped. My whole world changed that day.



Awesome shot Mr. Vestal. Could you elaborate on the gear a bit for the guys who are interested? That looks like a big rectangle light source. Shooting through something? Softbox? I'm sure it would be appreciated.


Also, weaknesses?

My experience with the SB-800 is that it is tough to do large alter shots as well. Just not enough power. They talk to each other but only about half the time. I ended up with Pocket Wizards. I never used an external battery pack. I don't care how long it takes to recycle. After lugging Lumidines and hand made Vivitar packs around I'll NEVER carry a battery pack again. Same with a &^%**&' tripod if I can help it. Also I kept burning out bulbs. But I'm a very heavy shooter.

The 900 is easier to use. But the TTL sucks at full power. No matter what I'm way hot. So I mainly shoot in fill mode. I didn't have a problem with overheating at first. Then is started. The flash would shut down after a few shots. Outside as fill mainly. So I just turned the &^%*@^#$% safety thing off. I guess there is a firmware update but I haven't attempted that yet. The 900 uses less batteries, recharges faster and the batteries last twice as long as the 800. I've only used the one 900 for two months and about 7,000 shots. Haven't used it in master mode yet. That's about all I got.

Sorry, I don't know how I forgot to add that. Camera: Nikon D100 Lens: I *think* it was the Nikon 60MM 2.8. SB800 bounced off 90 degrees. Ambient light also.

I've been really lucky in the past as my girlfriend is very gracious and patient. I've used the 800 in pitch black with great results. We've done a number of shoots and it's never let me down. This one is with the Tamron 28-75 2.8...

http://www.rickvestal.com/RVestal_076.jpg <--- Slightly NWS

It's really the only way we can shoot out in public places without tickets.

Edit: I forgot to mention, I got my D90 today! 18-200 comes on Friday so I hope to get out again and do some new stuff...

I have a small listing of \photos at rickvestal.com. Many are the product of a Sony 707 but feel free to browse...

Another interesting shot. The first one technically shouldn't work. Almost. Turned her face just enough to short light her and it's amazing.

The second shot has me stumped too. You couldn't have hit her head on with the flash because of the shadow under her leg. So the eyelights are photochopped?

I almost always use the reflector built into the flash. Other than that, I only I only fix blemishes. I don't see what you see...

But now that I look at it, those reflections on her eyes are awful :/ Alien girl...

Edit: This was a skate park, she's below me in the bowl...

I almost always use the reflector built into the flash. Other than that, I only I only fix blemishes. I don't see what you see...

But now that I look at it, those reflections on her eyes are awful :/ Alien girl...

Edit: This was a skate park, she's below me in the bowl...

Ahhh, I see. No, not awful. I just couldn't figure out how she had those eyelights AND the shadow under her leg. That's all.

I have to admit I have never used the reflector thing. Never pointed the 800/900 at a subject except for large groupshots.

So I am just as curious to see what you guys are doing and trying to figure it out as everyone else. I am not an expert or have it all figured out. I'm wrong every day.

This thread posted on request......guilty....blame me for HandyHamlet starting this thread....can't we all still be friends? :D.....

.....guilty....blame me for HandyHamlet starting this thread....can't we all still be friends? :D.....

No need to feel guilty mulester.
We are just having a friendly little discussion on the different ways people use their flash units. I doesn't hurt to learn different techniques that might be useful to us. :D

Should have done this yesterday as the light has changed. And the Pioneer system has been removed for refurbishing. So the lack of all that silver is unfortunate.

Same camera position. Slower lens. Same order:
First is ambient light, second is direct flash, third is 75 degree bounce, final is bounced directly off the back wall. All with stock Nikon diffuser.

D200 & SB-800
ISO 800
1/25 @ F4.5

The Pioneer stuff was shot with the D300 & SB-900 on a bracket.

ISO 1250
1/80 @ F4

Is there any reason why I can't mix an 800 and 900? Someone looking at my photos last night wants to shoot in the same place, the same way and unfortunately, it's a very public park right in the middle of downtown so it has to be very late at night. I'd like to eliminate a lot of the shadows I get shooting straight on. The 800, even used, is more than the 900.

Audio and Photography. Two money pit hobbies. I love it.

Just tested them. The 900 as the master. It tripped the 800 no problem.

BUT. I used two 800s for about a year to double light with moderate success. The infrared is very finicky. Finally broke down and had to buy Pocket Wizards after 17 years. And have my Alien Bees fixed. Can't have stuff work intermittently and any interference or poor positioning will trip the communication between units up... On the other hand, when it works it's really cool. Adjusting all units from one master unit.


Not sure what you mean about the 800 being more? The SB-800s were around $360 when I bought them and the Sb-900 was like $450 from B&H.

I don't know what happened... It seems the day the 800 was discontinued, it shot up in price. It wouldn't break my heart to grab a 900 tho. You think the 900 as the master would be somewhat reliable?

Edit: This whole thread is why I like AK so much. If this was a photography forum, 200 people would have responded saying 800 POS noob buy 900!!@!. And here's Hamlet testing something for me just to be a nice guy... That's cool.

My pleasure. My philosophy is that we are all in this together. And honestly this forum has been the first time I have ever talked shop online for the same reason. I don't even talk to the multitude of photographers I am around daily. In real life!

As far as the 900. I've only had it for 2 months maybe. I quit using the Nikon wireless system. I move around like a shark. So it was useless to me. You have to have everything in perfect alignment for the system to work. I'm talking moon, Pluto, Mars, everything. Might be superstition but I even removed the external 5th battery thing 'cause I though that might be interfering with the line of sight. The sensor is next to the battery door... After dicking around for a while I finally ditched that system. Ditched the old Alien Bee wireless system, which sucked, and finally just bought the Pocket Wizards. And had the Alien Bees serviced.

But like I said when the Nikon system works it is awesome. So for a single location gorilla type shoot it should be pretty cool. Highly mobile, easy to set up and use. Nikon is good about everything working together I guess so the 900 would be fine.

Personally I used the Sb-800s since '06? I was hesitant about the 900 because it was bulkier and heavier. But I am here to say I liked it way better immediately. And anything that keeps me from restoring my Lumidine set-up and having to lug that power pack around is fine by me.

And I should note I commented on the TTL mode causing all the shots to be hot. I have to admit I haven't even read the directions yet. Or tried to adjust this thing so I'm sure I am doing something wrong. Maybe I should do that soon as the 900 has many different controls compaired to the 800.

I don't know what happened... It seems the day the 800 was discontinued, it shot up in price. It wouldn't break my heart to grab a 900 tho. You think the 900 as the master would be somewhat reliable?

Edit: This whole thread is why I like AK so much. If this was a photography forum, 200 people would have responded saying 800 POS noob buy 900!!@!. And here's Hamlet testing something for me just to be a nice guy... That's cool.

I'm a member of a photography forum, but haven't been on it for a couple of years. Mainly for the reasons you said. Too many people with attitudes acting like they knew everything there is to know about photography. And some looking down their noses at others who didn't have the latest and greatest gear.
This thread is the kind I like, people just having a nice discussion about what they use and how they use it without a condescending attitude. :thmbsp:

Here's the SB-800 and 900 working together.
The SB-800 was buried and worked flawlessly. They were only a few feet apart.

The 900 was in commander mode. TTL-BL for both. The 900 was stopped down 3 stops and bounced. Nikon D300, 17-55 mm AF-S DX, F3.5, 1/50, 800 ISO.

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2842813#post2842813

Those look great! I don't think I can live without a second unit now!

Then don't look here! Spent a bit of time actually reading the directions for the SB-900.

Here is a shot using the SB-900 as the master unit. The 900 is set to "even". This setting disperses even light which seems to actually work compared to the previous photos. There are three different light dispersal modes. Two SB-800s set 90 degrees immediately off camera right/left and pointed straight up. Both with diffusers. Set to TTL, +1.3EV and +2.0EV respectively. No diffuser on the TTL-BL 900 which is pointed straight back to bounce off the rear wall.

It took about 5 minutes to set this shot up and snap 24 pics. It's so easy to use. Because it's digital/TTL no light meter was needed. 1250 ISO, f2.8 @ 1/20, Nikon D300 with the 17-55 mm, hand held.

Have to say I am impressed at how even the light is on the sliver faces of this gear. This vintage stuff is very unforgiving. Notice the weird colors reflecting off the faces. Much respect for the commercial photographers!

Then don't look here! Spent a bit of time actually reading the directions for the SB-900.

Here is a shot using the SB-900 as the master unit. The 900 is set to "even". This setting disperses even light which seems to actually work compared to the previous photos. There are three different light dispersal modes. Two SB-800s set 90 degrees immediately off camera right/left and pointed straight up. Both with diffusers. Set to TTL, +1.3EV and +2.0EV respectively. No diffuser on the TTL-BL 900 which is pointed straight back to bounce off the rear wall.

It took about 5 minutes to set this shot up and snap 24 pics. It's so easy to use. Because it's digital/TTL no light meter was needed. 1250 ISO, f2.8 @ 1/20, Nikon D300 with the 17-55 mm, hand held.

Have to say I am impressed at how even the light is on the sliver faces of this gear. This vintage stuff is very unforgiving. Notice the weird colors reflecting off the faces. Much respect for the commercial photographers!

That is a nice shot there. It is very hard to shoot silver face gear and get it to look good.

Can I bother you again Mr. Hamlet? I grabbed an SB-900 to complement my 800 and have played around with the triggering inside with no problems. How well does it (triggering) work in daylight? I have a pretty important shoot tomorrow and haven't the time to practice before I head out.

Sorry Rick, I was booked all weekend. Just found the post.

And honestly I have never used them together outside during the day. So not much help I'm afraid. Hope it went well!