I currently use a Pioneer PL-570 with a AT 440MLa running into a Pioneer Spec 1 preamp/phono stage. I love this system! But I have nothing in this league to compare it to and get curious. I have another tt and other carts but they aren't worth mentioning, the 440MLa is worlds better.

So I snagged a Denon DL-160 for $100 but haven't gotten a chance to listen to it yet. Meanwhile I decide to order a Jolida JD-9a to see if it's any better than the Spec 1, and to give me more options with loading and making lomc possible.

So now of course I'm wondering about getting a lo mc. I also have a PL-630 on the way, and am in line for a lovingly/expertly restored PL-630 down the road. :thmbsp:

I'm very tempted to get an AT OC9MLii to experiment with on these two TTs. I'm also tempted by AT 150mlx and Dyna 10x5 but then I would still have a nagging desire to try a low output MC with the Jolida down the road. I very much enjoy the quest and the experimenting so I'll probably end up getting a few different carts before I decide I can't really get anything I'll like better on my budget.

Are there other carts I should look at < $500ish? Am I being silly by really wanting to get into lo mc now that I finally can?

Has anyone ever compared the JD-9a to a Spec 1? It's supposed to ship tomorrow, I'm very excited. I'm wondering if it will be much better, maybe it will make mm carts sound "that much" better?

My amp is a diy kit Aksa 100 Nirvana from Hugh Dean's Aspen Amplifiers in Australia. After getting the Spec 1 I just use the amp as a straight amp, but it also has a tube buffer, source selection and attenuator (Elna switches etc). I'll certainly try running the JD-9a straight into the Aksa with just the passive attenuator, that could be really cool.

Any advice/comments appreciated, I'm having a great deal of fun getting back into records over the past year.

One question I have is how much "mass" are these tonearms? I like to keep each cart on its own headshell so I can experiment. Should I be looking at specific headshells or a certain weight headshell or anything like that for any of these carts or just in general? I felt my way through adjusting the 440MLa pretty well when I got it a year ago but I'm still kind of baffled by everything.

I did order a Sumiko HS-12 headshell for the DL-160 but it's still back-ordered. I can probably cancel it if anyone has better ideas.

I have the Jolida and both the cartridges you mention (440 and DL 160) and you will find the JD9 to work very well with both cartridges.

I am running both out of the lower output MM jacks with great results.

I did change the stock Jolikda tubes to a pair of Mullards (the reissues) and it smoothed it out nicely.

Plenty of gain on the unit!

I'd cancel the Sumiko headshell. S-arms are medium to high mass to start with. The last thing they need is a heavy headshell. It makes it difficult if not impossible to balance the arm without adding an auxialiary weight at the back end, and it makes it even more of a struggle to mate high compliance cartridges, such as the ones you've mentioned. You want to use the lightest headshell you can get. You don't need a fancy one.

The OC9 and MLX150 are not the best matches to the arm. The Dynavector is fine. If possible you want to look at cartridges with higher tracking forces--these have stiffer cantilevers (low compliance) that mate better with higher mass arms. You might want to look at Benz. If you go over to needledoctor.com they have a wide selection of decent cartridges.

Ok that helps a lot. So I'm looking for the lightest headshells I can find. The Denon DL-103R should work better since it's listed tracking force is much higher?

What would I actually hear or listen for to better understand this arm-mass compliance stuff? My current 440MLa I guess is too compliant also? If I put the OC-9 on there with a lower mass headshell, how would I know if I"m out of the range of acceptable?

Are the PL-570 and PL-630 arms essentiall the same for these purposes?

The theory behind it is that every cantilever will oscillate at a certain frequency, called the "resonant frequency." The idea is to try to keep that frequency in a range between 8-12Hz. Lower and it will respond to warps and footfalls: higher and it will be in the audible range. This is a rough guide, and you have leeway--medium mass arms will work with high compliance carts, it's just not ideal. Passable for a budget cart, but I wouldn't be spending hundreds on a less than ideal match.

So, for example, the AT440MLa at 1.4g median TF is not ideal, but it's passable, and many use them successfully. But I wouldn't spend the money on the 150MLX or OC9. The DL-103R has a median TF of 2.5g, which is at the high end of the hi-fi range. That would normally be a bit high for this arm, but the rule of thumb I use assumes an average cartridge weight of 6g. Weighing 8.5g this cart adds 2.5g of mass, so it's actually fine to use on this arm. OTOH, the OC9 has a median TF of 1.5g, which is high compliance. The cartridge weighs 8g, adding another 2g to the already medium mass arm, making the problem worse. If the cartridge were $50 I'd say no big deal--try it, but at $400 I wouldn't make the investment. Same goes for the 150MLX. And the arm mass for the PL-570 assumes the original headshell which was about 8g. The Sumiko is something like 12g, IIRC.

There is a formula for calculating the resonant frequency using arm mass, cart mass and compliance. The problem is that the compliance figures are inconsistent or just plain wrong, so plugging bad data into a formula is worthless. Since TF is inversely proportional to compliance, that is the most reliable measure. For a medium mass arm, I usually think 1.6-2.2g median TF based on a 6g cartridge.

Yes, the PL-570 and 630 arms would be the same mass.

These are the headshells I feel are the most appropriate:

http://www.lpgear.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=LG&Product_Code=PTS003&Category_Code=HEADSHELLS

They are also sold at other dealers and on ebay and they come in silver, too.

Ok I went back and re-read a great many things with a better understanding. It gets old re-reading all this stuff, but each time understanding more and more. Thanks everyone who contributes, especially you Howard I light up when I see you're involved in a thread that is relevant to my interests, you always have great insight!!!

Ok so I took a scale to my PL-570. I am using that exact headshell you link to and will get more of them. I just grabbed a Stanton headshell from a nearby Guitar Center and it weighs 9.5 grams unfortunately.

The AT 440mla + headshell is 13.5 grams. With the lateral weight and vtf weights and stylus removed, the front of the tonearm/headshell/cart seems to weigh 20.9 grams.

So what's my effictive tonearm mass?

I had no idea a 2 gram difference in the weight of the cartridge was so critical.

So I *might* actually be ok with a oc9mlii if the headshell is light enough? Is that really the only concern? If my table seems immune to issues caused by a low resonant frequency, is that all I should worry about? Or will I be theoretically missing some of the magic?

Why doesn't everyone break out the dremel and lighten their tonearms/headshells? If I take the lateral weight off, that has to be decrease the overall "mass" for these purposes right? Even though it's very close to the axis... What does that thing do anyways?

So I could try the Denon 103R, and can also look at a few other things including the AT 33EV! Stylus pressure: 1.8 - 2.2g (2.0g standard).

I'll try to come back w/ a list of all the carts I started looking into today, I have a million browser tabs open. I wish some of these vendors had their carts categorized by different ranges of tracking force/compliance! Boy would that be nice. I've been shopping for carts for over a year and I really didn't understand that that's the very first thing I should look at, for a given tonearm.

So does anyone try to put different tonearms on PL-570s or PL-630s??

The effective arm mass is just the arm plus headshell. So you would have to subtract the weight of the cartridge (without stylus). So it's 20.9 minus about 6g, so we'll say roughly 15g. And yes, that's what I measured it to be with this headshell.

As to the AT OC9, no, even with this headshell it's not a good match. Just to put things in perspective, a low mass arm would be under 10g. First of all, one shouldn't assume having a higher mass arm is a bad thing. The Rega, Project, early Thorens, and many other high quality tts have medium or high mass arms. The best cartridges, i.e. low output MC are mostly low compliance (high TF). It's just that you happened to choose one of the few high compliance LOMC carts, the OC9. There are many other MCs out there to choose from.

The lateral weight is supposed to balance the arm in all planes. It's advantage is dubious and Pioneer left it off the PL-630 as you know. But in any case, the mass we're concerned with is that forward of the pivot, and mostly at the headshell end.

I doubt anyone's put a different arm on the PL-570 or PL-630 for several reasons. One is that you'll lose automatic functions including auto-return. Second is that these are Pioneer's best arms, and responsible for what I think is excellent sound, so why chuck them? If there were no cartridge choices, you'd have some justification, but that just isn't so.

Let's just look at the budget end. It's commonly thought that the highest TF MMs are the low end conicals and entry level ellipticals. Actually the AT ellipticals, like the AT95E are pretty darn good. And now you have lpgear offering more sophisticated styli for this cartridge, but still with the 2g tracking force.

The point is that with any arm mass you can find decent matches at all price points.

If there are no hum issues with this TT, I suggest you look into a Grado BLACK (or other color). Yeah it an entry level cartridge, but it likes to track at 1.8 and delivers the Grado sound. You won't be out much and it'll be a good addition to your cartridge library for some LPs. I'd also be looking for a Shure Premier or M75 body. Good sound there and a number of stylus choices. In addition, I'd be on the look-out for a late model Empire and/or a Pickering. These can be found on garage sale tables and such. They'll need to be mounted as Howard says in light shells and suggest using LPGears SOAR wires as they make mounting very nice (very flexible).

All in all, you can have a ton of fun and your DL160 will be there along with the rest. There will come along a desire for an upscale LOMC at some point. But become aware of the sounds and voices, then go for it. At that point you'll be able to say what you like (or don't) about a lot of these and that's a big help.

Ok everything is making sense I really appreciate the help.

Amazingly enough the PL-570 came w/ a Grado black! It's still in the pioneer headshell as I assume it was set up properly so I use it for a reality check.

I'm currently "soundproofing" my listening/recording jam room so everything is a mess and I can't properly listen to subtle differences right now. So I'm trying to not spend any money until I get the DL-160 broken in and see what it's all about. That was a fluke that those things were suddenly available for $100 shipped I couldn't pass it up. I'm very excited to get the Jolida JD-9a. Then I'll have a "modern" reference point to compare all the sweet old vintage gear!

I'm trading an old guitar amp to a local guy (Warren Bendler) to whip my SX-1010 into shape, boy I sure miss that thing. I guess I can't really expect the phono stage to measure up, but it is a heck of an amp.

Broc I dusted off the Grado black and it is indeed a great recommendation. I see what you mean that it can be kind of a reference point for what I like and where I want to head whenever I take the plunge on a pricier cart. My stuff is all in disarray right now so I don't want to make any comments on the differences in sound but I keep forgetting to change the cartridge and remember that I'm supposed to be comparing something!

I love it when that happens, it's high praise for the gear I'm supposed to be listening to that I forget about the gear and listen to the music. A lack of annoyance to distract.

My other cart is an AT 71 which I just just realized was not set up right! I'll have to get it whipped into shape and give it another shot. It came on a $8 garage sale panasonic/technics DD. It was a cheapy in it's time but I do use it quite a bit as I like having two turntables and I like to have a "garbage" turntable that other people can mess around with and play scratched up records on etc. I got a new stylus for it.

Sounds like a plan :)