used a groovewill (goodwill) record as my test dummy. looks like a late 50's LP. had mold all over it. used home depot wood glue, spread it with my finger and allowed it to dry overnight.

next day took record and bent it a bit and worked it till the glue came free in one spot. used card stock to get under the glue and work it free. as you can see i almost got it off in one whole piece!

results?
astonishing! anywhere there was glue there is no fungus and the vinyl shines like new with that funny rainbow effect when you catch the light off it the right way.

just finished coating the other side. will peel other side tomorrow and then give the record a listen.

I'd be curious to know if it sounds as well as it looks... 'cuz it looks good.

I put a couple of electrical tape tabs on the outer edges to assist in the lift off. Worked great, just stay out of the lead in.

looks like a lot of glue...

it was a bit of glue which probably is what made it easier for me to peel the stuff off.

Glue's cheap - some LPs aren't :)

So just regular old home depot brand wood glue?

I've had some great results with this method.
If it weren't so time consuming and messy, I would use it all the time.

I've had some great results with this method.
If it weren't so time consuming and messy, I would use it all the time.

And you have to do it twice, once per side.

John

How much do you thin the glue? Most glues I use seem to be too thick out of the bottle to penetrate to the bottom of the groove.
Also, have you tried scrubbing and vacuuming? how does glue compare? It just seems like a lot of extra work and a huge potential mess that might return less in overall clean.

Just wonderin'...:scratch2:

It is some work, but unless you screw up there is no mess. Even if you do screw up, the glue is thick so it doesn't run all over everything before you have a chance to wipe it up.
Thinning *might* make it get the bottom of the groove better. I've done records both straight and thinned, and haven't reached a conclusion. The unthinned glue is easier to work with and dries more quickly (slightly) IMO. If you do thin it, only thin it a little. If you thin it too much it will tend to get much thicker at the low spots of the record and too thin at the high spots... all records are at least a tiny bit warped, and it's hard to find a truly level surface to put them on.
I also wash lots of albums by hand. Probably takes longer to wash thoroughly than to put on the glue, but you can play the washed record in 15 minutes or so, gotta wait hours per side for the glue. I can also wash 8 or 10 records and put them in a dishrack to dry. After three glued records I start running out of place to put them to dry.
I don't have a vacuum system to compare to.

I used the Titebond right out of the bottle. I used a business card to act as a plow and spread and force the glue around. I think that and capillary action
managed to allow the glue to settle in.
If you don't use enough glue, you will see it "ring" away on the surface.
I've only used it on albums I got from you Andy. :D

I've only used it on albums I got from you Andy. :D

Well, now I know what you like :D

And there ain't no capillary action on that vinyl buddy. Surface tension is the devil I'm concerned about and that's why some folks add Triton and the like to DIY solutions to increase the "wetting action".

If water isn't wet enough, one has to wonder about wood glue :yes:

I thought the wetting agent was to combat the "dryness" of the alcohol.
As the glue dries, I think it also it pulls the gunk out of the grooves, that may be the reverse process.
You can see the rings and gunk in the mask after you peel it off.
I would prefer a vacuum cleaning machine, but still haven't built one.

Water tends not to wet the vinyl. Wood glue seems to want to wet the vinyl just fine. Sometimes I find a spot or two on a record that seems to want to repel the glue. Probably excess mold release or a really greasy fingerprint. I just work the glue in a little more diligently in that spot and it seems to be fine.

i used glue right out of the bottle. applied thick and used my finger to work it around. i have tried washing and even though that does work pretty well, this beats washing for removing fungus on really bad records IMHO.

it is time consuming and i would reserve this for really obscure stuff you cant bare to pass up at the record sale table.

Or, what Pete & Andy give away at the AK Fests. :rockon:

I just did my second and the results are good. Yes it is time consuming and I wash mine after the glue comes off. I only use it for the really bad ones I can't replace easily or cheeply. I used LePage Bonsfast White Glue. Don't know if it's available in the states but it is common up here in the Great White North. Got the bottle for $1.00 at the local Habitat for Humanity store so it is very economical. I spread mine with a credit card although not that happy with it. Used a Tupperware plastic orange peeler to pry the glue off and it works great although I will try the business card or card stock next time to see it it's any better.

Or, what Pete & Andy give away at the AK Fests. :rockon:

well, NO ONE took that disco Bolero Pete had.
I even saw it a week later at the thrift I donated it to.

Go figure??? :dunno: :D

I didn't want to hog all of the good stuff. You should try it Andy, as you can compare results from your RCM and are kind of skeptical. :yes:

I've tried the woodglue, and found it works well. I still only use it on some of the worst "thrift shop" type records, though. I don't choose really dirty records unless they are something special or rare, and/or they come in a bulk-buy, so I don't use the glue very often, but it has worked well the few times I've tried it.

I always finish up with a clean-and-rinse on the VPI RCM. Although perhaps that isn't needed, I just feel better doing it; like cleaning a brand new record to remove any mold-release compound, I feel better "cleaning" the glue-cleaned record, just in case there is any chemical film left behind (even though I can't see any).

On really bad records, I'll gently steam the record before applying the glue. I figure the steam helps to loosen any stuck-on gunk, so the glue can pick it up more easily, plus any residual moisture left in the grooves from the steaming, may help ensure the glue runs fully down into the grooves.

I haven't compared glue-only with glue+RCM.

:scratch2: Funny how much of what I do with LPs and gear was learned right here at AK. Steaming, wood glue, even Magic Eraser for cleaning the stylus and the DIY stylus microscope for checking it... all learned right here. THANKS, guys! :thmbsp:

How much do you thin the glue? Most glues I use seem to be too thick out of the bottle to penetrate to the bottom of the groove.


Just wonderin'...:scratch2:

Hi Andy,

An ingredient in all Titebond wood glue products, and one I suspect is in most commercial PVA wood glues is vinyl acetate copolymer – more commonly know as vinyl alcohol. This non-solvent agent, I strongly suspect, is what allows for the departure from what would seem like the high surface tension of the glue (viscosity @ 3200 cps) to penetrate deeply into record grooves. When you think about it, a wood glue is going to need to leech into some very tight tree cell grains – like maple for it to do its intended job.
The fact that PVA wood glue can penetrate and remove dirt, dust and debris left on the floor or record grooves, which has been left behind by traditional RCMs with various liquid cleaning recipes, pretty much seals the deal that these PVA glues go deep to get out the grunge.
Since water by itself has a prohibitive surface tension for going deep into grooves (modern “microgrooves”, anyway), I’ve seen no advantage in adding it to PVA glue for penetration purposes. I think its use by folks in this process has been more of an attempt to manipulate drying time.

And I thought long and hard about that Disco Bolero. Then I got a headache…

- Mario

If you take the dried removed glue portion, add another layer of glue on top of that, can you play it on your turntable?:D

Ardvaark
:music:

If you take the dried removed glue portion, add another layer of glue on top of that, can you play it on your turntable?:D

Ardvaark
:music:

The glue - even dry - has an amazing affinity to fresh glue. You'd never peel the glue. Maybe some other type of glue, or some kind of mold release. Then I bet you could play it.

If you take the dried removed glue portion, add another layer of glue on top of that, can you play it on your turntable?:D

Ardvaark
:music:

But, but, the RIAA would consider that "Copyright Infringement" :nono:
:D

I ttried it today also...cleaned up the Queen Night at the Opera LP that I'd just flattened using glass and sunlight...one side anyway. Listening to it now, this really, really works. I had already cleaned the LP with my Nitty Gritty RCM, but this sounds waaaay nicer! High frequency is amazing...no exaggeration...a different record, to my ears. I used Elmers that I had lying in the basement. Now I just did my CSN LP also...both albums were Goodwill finds, so only stood to lose abuck each. Highly recommending this from now on. I speeded up drying using a table fan. Took about 2 hours. My local hardware has 1-gallon Titebond for $18, so that's my next buy.

Yeah, glue em if you got em :)

Hey OscarEmmy,
You might want hold off on that gallon purchase of original formula Titebond. AK member Relder (Rob) made the discovery that Titebond Extend self-peels from vinyl as it dries.
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=99837&page=20
Because this would be a tremendous boon to this method's ease of use, I finally got a couple of pint bottles in today to test against the original formula. (The question being whether its self-peeling properties might have some adverse limitations on grunge removal. In other words, does it do as good of a job?)
I'll try and dig up an LP with pretty equal grunge on both sides and do an A/B test over the weekend. I'll post the results to the Wood Glue thread.
- Mario

Let me add, Titebond II is far better than regular Titebond. Ive been glue cleaning records for well over a year now, probably glue cleaned upwards of 100 LPs. Regular Titebond cracks and shreds on drying, and finishes too brittle, where Titebond II remains somewhat eleastic when dry, making for a much easier removal. (one peace pulls are very much the norm.)

The whole process is easy if you hand spin the disc on a turn table using a plastic membership-type card. You can go round and round as long as you like and really PUSH that glue deep into the grooves. Its very simple, very quick and very clean. It takes me maybe 30 seconds to glue a side, and thats including spending some extra revolutions really forcing the glue deep. No danger to the LP!

Thinning is a mistake. The glue will become unruly and tend to pool and run. Not good. More trouble than its worth and i dont see any benefit in thinning whatsoever.

Hi All,

Started to follow this and the longer thread, very interesting.

Here's an interesting proposition for you. Lets say you have two records of the same album. Lets say you glue clean both side A's and they come out fine.

Now take one album and glue up side B but do not remove the mask. Now playback Side A with the glue mask still on side B, just for comparison sakes, assuming there isn't a lot of warp from the mask not being perfectly flat. Aside from the variation in VTA (which might be eliminated with removal of the platter mat, depending on thickness), I suspect there might be some change or difference in the playback on side A.

Why?
You have effectively added a lot of mass of similar density to the record, maybe even doubling the weight (now 400 gram vinyl?).

You are filling in all the grooves on side B, eliminating microspaces for vibration ringing at certain frequencies (ok, that might be a bit of a stretch).

The glue side is smooth (mostly) and may make better contact with the mat or platter.

The glue side has a better inherent ability to damp out the platter, assuming its still soft and pliable. If it has dried hard and stiff, then forget that part of it!

Disadvantages?
You better like the music on side A! You'll need two copies of every record. The album will not fit in the cover anymore, but you could store it in the album cover plastic sleeve instead.

Any ideas if this has merit?

Mario...I will wait to hear how you get on...I'm broke anyway and can't spare$18 until payday :o(

Still, I am thrilled with the effect on the 2 albums so far. I wet the CNS album first, which turned out to not help at all...the glue came off in fiddly little pieces. Next time, I'll just use the glue full strength. Self peeling sounds a real boon. I estimate it took me an hour to get the glue off the CSN album...I can't spend so much time on a regular basis. I will also use the old turntable method. I have plenty of old TT's in storage, several with missing arm parts, which will be ideal.

Peeling the record should take a couple of minutes. It usually comes off in one piece, sometimes you have to start peeling from a second direction if the glue tears so you come at the tear from the opposite side. Sometimes there are a few crumbs left at the edge or in the runout area that require a bit of picking. That's it!

shouldnt take more than 30-45 seconds to remove a mask... maybe a minute. higher humidity helps reduce edge crumbs... doing this in the winter is a little more tricky.,.....summertime up here in Maine is so muggy that these glue masks come off clean every single time.... and fast... and in one piece!

Hi Andy,

An ingredient in all Titebond wood glue products, and one I suspect is in most commercial PVA wood glues is vinyl acetate copolymer – more commonly know as vinyl alcohol. This non-solvent agent, I strongly suspect, is what allows for the departure from what would seem like the high surface tension of the glue (viscosity @ 3200 cps) to penetrate deeply into record grooves. When you think about it, a wood glue is going to need to leech into some very tight tree cell grains – like maple for it to do its intended job.
The fact that PVA wood glue can penetrate and remove dirt, dust and debris left on the floor or record grooves, which has been left behind by traditional RCMs with various liquid cleaning recipes, pretty much seals the deal that these PVA glues go deep to get out the grunge.
Since water by itself has a prohibitive surface tension for going deep into grooves (modern “microgrooves”, anyway), I’ve seen no advantage in adding it to PVA glue for penetration purposes. I think its use by folks in this process has been more of an attempt to manipulate drying time.

And I thought long and hard about that Disco Bolero. Then I got a headache…

- Mario

Thank you sir, that makes sense to me. I'm willing to accept solid science anytime vs. all the crapola spewed about out there.

I'll have to give it a try on some of these LPs that seem to refuse to quiet down despite the absence of any surface issues. But as a longtime woodworker, it just seems so much more messier than a good scrub with a good solution.

I'd still do some sort of wash first as some of these LPs I've found (like the one's I'm saving for Strawman :D ) have so much filth on them I'd be concerned about them loading up the glue and not getting all the way down to the groove bottom.

ok, finally got around to trying the record i cleaned with wood glue. its "dance date with sam donahue" from masterseal records. its mono, 1957.

the record was originally covered with mold. after pulling the glue and washing, the record shows no traces of mold on the areas the glue was applied and shined like new. it did nothing for scratches but i wasnt expecting miracles.

on playback the record sounds good but seems overdriven at times. this could very be just due to how the record was recorded and maybe because its an old mono record and im playing it with a modern stereo needle. overall the glue cleaning made a huge difference on surface noise. will have to try it again on a more modern record thats gunked up to see what the result is. i will say it looks promising.

Hi Andy,

An ingredient in all Titebond wood glue products, and one I suspect is in most commercial PVA wood glues is vinyl acetate copolymer – more commonly know as vinyl alcohol. This non-solvent agent, I strongly suspect, is what allows for the departure from what would seem like the high surface tension of the glue (viscosity @ 3200 cps) to penetrate deeply into record grooves. When you think about it, a wood glue is going to need to leech into some very tight tree cell grains – like maple for it to do its intended job.
The fact that PVA wood glue can penetrate and remove dirt, dust and debris left on the floor or record grooves, which has been left behind by traditional RCMs with various liquid cleaning recipes, pretty much seals the deal that these PVA glues go deep to get out the grunge.
Since water by itself has a prohibitive surface tension for going deep into grooves (modern “microgrooves”, anyway), I’ve seen no advantage in adding it to PVA glue for penetration purposes. I think its use by folks in this process has been more of an attempt to manipulate drying time.

And I thought long and hard about that Disco Bolero. Then I got a headache…

- Mario
I will agree with the thinking. How about using alcohol to thin the PVA glue?

And you have to do it twice, once per side.

John

John,

In the other (there may be a dozen) thread about this that I am subscribed to there was a picture of a stack of LPs separated by plastic cups that rest on the label. It allows you to do both sides and a "stack" of LPs at a time.

My results have been good, but I can't say they have been dramatically better than my steam-cleaning method.

But for some fun, I'm going to experiment with a glue sandwich... two LPs, one layer of glue.

P.S. These will DEFINITELY be throwaway LPs used in this experiment. ;-)

I will agree with the thinking. How about using alcohol to thin the PVA glue?

Hi Sasi,
My question is, if it penetrates straight out the container, why thin at all? Can we be sure that isopropyl is not going to modify a PVA glue's efficacy in its task? This may be for someone else to experiment with, but I don't really see where the need "to improve" in this area is coming from.
Despite, the success of many here using alcohol in their homebrew cleaning solutions, there are a few of us that are reluctant to use it on vinyl. ( I realize this sounds absolutely crazy from someone who regularly slathers glue on his records.) I'm not looking to turn this into a donnybrook over a side issue, but there a few chemists (at Phansteil & Keith Monks) who believe that isopropyl is not kind to polymer chains, especially in high concentrations and repeated use.
- Mario

. . . :scratch2: Funny how much of what I do with LPs and gear was learned right here at AK. Steaming, wood glue, even Magic Eraser for cleaning the stylus and the DIY stylus microscope for checking it... all learned right here. THANKS, guys! :thmbsp:

Can you send a bookmark/URL for the do it yourself Stylus Microscope?

I'll stay on subject now.

My results have been good, but I can't say they have been dramatically better than my steam-cleaning method.

But for some fun, I'm going to experiment with a glue sandwich... two LPs, one layer of glue.

P.S. These will DEFINITELY be throwaway LPs used in this experiment. ;-)

Any Links to steam cleaning method?

I've tried thinning with IPA, with water, and with water and IPA. My conclusion is that the glue works best right from the container. It spreads better, it doesn't pool up and run to the low spot nearly as much, it dries the same if not faster, no difference in peel, no difference in performance that I can detect. I no longer thin Elmer's Wood Glue. I've just tried Aleene's Tacky Glue, and it is very different in that it is a "dryer" consistency and is harder to spread. I *might* try thinning it, but I doubt it will be an improvement in any way.