With the same bs marketing crap. Sorry, no link yet I can find.

Only this time, they are up against verifiable parameters, no fudging will snow the car guys.

They invite Car and Driver to a demonstration of Dr. Boses' active suspension, but will NOT let them test drive it on the road, only on a simulator, and show them video footage!! But it's only in the development stage. OOHHHHhhhhh, okayyyy....


Just FYI.

Pete

Weird area to branch out into???

I can't stand the pukes who look like they stepped off the cover of an LL Bean magazine who brag about how their new car has a Bose stereo system in it. I want to bash their skulls in :mad: I swear the general populace is brainwashed by this Bose shit and it makes me sick and if one more person comes up to me about Bose this or that they own and how wonderful it is I am gonna kill someone.

OK I fell better now :D

This is the first I've heard of Bose and car suspensions. For the most part, active suspensions are usually very complex and expensive.....and seldom are the gains worth it.

GM seems to be on a good track with this as their electronic shock absorbers are the next best thing. Using G-force sensors and integration with the ABS they offer a very quick response at a nominal price (compared to they typical active system)

I can't help but think that Packard was really onto something with their 4 wheel interconnected torsion bar suspension of 1955/56 Other than the leveler motor, it was entirely passive in nature and allowed the suspension and NOT the chassis to absorb, deflect, and actually USE the energy from bumps and potholes.

Anthony

I use to work in the Engine & Vehicle Research Division of a large R&D firm (large as in sits on over 750 acres). Anyway, we were designing active suspensions 15 years ago that were awesome. Tied into a ABS/traction control system, it would turn most anyone into a serious road rally competitor. Imagine your car leaning into a turn, instead of rolling out. We were using a hydraulic suspension system for buses and air for cars. The mechanics of the thing isn't that hard, but the code for the computer is SERIOUS.

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0%2C1759%2C1640052%2C00.asp

Here is one article.

Dave

Originally posted by THOR
Weird area to branch out into???

I can't stand the pukes who look like they stepped off the cover of an LL Bean magazine who brag about how their new car has a Bose stereo system in it. I want to bash their skulls in :mad: I swear the general populace is brainwashed by this Bose shit and it makes me sick and if one more person comes up to me about Bose this or that they own and how wonderful it is I am gonna kill someone.

OK I fell better now :D

(said with bottom chin sticking waaay out) Excuuuuse me boy! But my Bose stereophonic hi-fi system in my(insert Lexus, MB, RangeRover, Caddy, here...) is of the finest quality you will find anywhere. Now puleese stop standing on my hushpuppies and retreive my car for me. I've been waiting here for 30 seconds already. Oh...and here's a dollar for you.

Originally posted by Wardsweb
We were using a hydraulic suspension system for buses and air for cars. The mechanics of the thing isn't that hard, but the code for the computer is SERIOUS.

Yeppers, there have been all manner of hydraulic sway bars etc over the years (I had thought of this before I had even heard of them!). Hell, in the 50's there was a gizmo that bolted behind (ahead of, actually) the rear bumper which was intended to reduce sway.....this had a heavy weight and was spring loaded from either side. There have been some roundy round racers over the years who have used liquid mercury in a similar fashion. Don't know if they really worked all that well, and am pretty sure the mercury deal was finally outlawed by the racing sanctioning bodies (am sure it would never be allowed on the street or track nowadays for the toxicity)

Regardless, I can't help but think that writing code is quite a bit easier now for a variety of reasons. One of which is that the processor (or bios?) could be built with a major portion of it manufactured right in. Also, there are many more programs available to aid in writing code....some of this probably could be automated too.

Anywaysssssssss, whadya think of that there Packy Torsion Level? You familiar with it? It was developed by Dr. William Allison who tried selling it to most all the American car companies and only Packard showed enough foresight to purchase the rights. International Harvester also developed a similar system base on the Allison design but found buyer resistance (on price) from major trucking firms. Those were the days when even power steering was few and far between on big rigs. Who gave a rat's patootie about driver comfort? What they didn't realize is that a more comfortable driver is a more alert one and less prone to accidents.

Anthony

The GM system (Known as Magna-ride) uses metallic particles suspended in oil. By passing current through this oil/metal mix, you can vary the viscosity of the fluid and change the damping rate of the shock absorbers/struts.

There are also active exhaust systems which use sound waves to cancel the noise from the engine by generating an opposite sound wave, thereby damping the exhust noise and eliminating the need for mufflers (and thus backpressure). This system was "almost" used on the Plymouth Prowler.

My '73 Imperial has 4-wheel ABS brakes. It's a 64,000 mile survivor. Someday I'm going to take it out to a HUGE icy parking lot and see if the ABS still functions. I do know that you must shut the car off to re-boot the primative ABS computer.

Prototypes were also built with AWD, and '70 Dodge Polaras equipped with AWD and ABS were tested by police departments. Tire technology sucked so bad back then that I suspect the gains were marginal.

The Bose Wave radio is no good? :D

Carmine, if you recall, I mentioned previously that I had a '76 New Yorker Brougham (the substitute for the Imperial). Found a 4 wheel disc brake car at the bone yard but somehow had already swiped the master and ABS module.

Who remembers the Olds Toronado(?) Max-Trak anti lock system? My spelling may be off, but I recall seeing a TV commercial where they painted some white sections of the tires to clearly show it locking and unlocking while going thru a puddle. This was the early 70's

History is strewn with the remnants of early technology. Studebaker had an entirely mechanical power steering system which really never made it out to the public, but some cars WERE built with it (no hydraulics.....belt driven clutch pump device with a jackshaft to the steering box).

And of course there were the early electronic injection systems of Chrysler and AMC (yes, that AMC)

Anthony

And anudda thing, about the Magna-Ride fluid, this material (or one similar to it) has actually been around for many decades. When I first heard of it I thought it could be used as part of a variable cam timing system. Think of something similar to a lifter but filled with this juice. Apply some power and it would stiffen up and change the valve event (more timing and higher lift).

As for the noise canceling systems......they sell headphones for use in noisy environments (airplanes, factories etc). Have heard of this being applied to generators and air compressors that you see out at construction sites too.

Anthony

Didn't Citroen have some form of an active suspension way back in the 50's or 60's?

Mike

Does this mean that after about 40 years of TRYING to design a decent loudspeaker he's finally going to throw in the towel?

TA

LOL!

Citroen did (does?) make a suspension that used pressurized hydraulics (and I believe the power steering and brakes ran off the same system). There were these pressurized Nitrogen(?) filled spheres as part of this---Rolls and BMW offered similar systems on certain models. Although the Citroen design was unique for the integration of the steering and brakes (RR included only the brakes)

I have only seen and driven the Citroen cars, haven't worked on them, but I've been unfortunate enough to have repaired quite a few of the BMW and RR's. Seems I always need to buy some special tool which I can't easily fabricate when it comes to the RR's. And of course I need to purchase their special fluids which are poured into the container by a virgin nun from a order which lives in the cave somewhere.

Anthony

Active suspension just like these four wheel steering pick ups and SUV's they got coming out just sound like more stuff that'll break and need to be fixed ;)

Originally posted by THOR
Weird area to branch out into???

I can't stand the pukes who look like they stepped off the cover of an LL Bean magazine who brag about how their new car has a Bose stereo system in it. I want to bash their skulls in :mad: I swear the general populace is brainwashed by this Bose shit and it makes me sick and if one more person comes up to me about Bose this or that they own and how wonderful it is I am gonna kill someone.

OK I fell better now :D

I once was showing a guy I know my buddies system-La Scalas in front,La Scalas in the rear,An M-80,c-80 amp setup,and a v15 type IV on the end of an AR turntable,and this clown says "have you thought about upgrading to Bose 901's?They even have whole Bose systems now.State of the art."I think that guy is still hanging from the third story dorm room window.
Jimmy

The Infiniti Q45 had a full active suspension available in their model line in the Early 90’s. It was a computer controlled hydraulic system using a pump, accumulators and hydraulic actuators instead of struts. It used several g-sensors and ride height sensors to determine the attitude of the car and the rate of lateral acceleration and would keep the car flat in the corners. It worked well when it worked. The actuators would get stiff over time and were frightfully expensive to replace. Bose is far from the first to work on this concept.

Citroen had hydraulic suspensions in the early and mid sixties. These were more of a hydraulic ride height control that would allow you to raise or lower the vehicle for road conditions. There was no kind of active control. Years ago, a guy that owned a junk yard offered to sell me one for $100. It was stuck in the highest position. He said it was just like a Frenchman, once he gets it up it’s up for a week.

As far as Bose goes, they best get their audio house in order before branching out. My wife’s car has Bose audio. It is the worst radio I’ve ever heard for reproducing voice. Now, I’m clinically tone deaf in one ear. There are some frequencies I just don’t hear. That Bose audio system must concentrate it’s whole voice spectrum right in my dead range.

- Pete

I wish I brought my issue of Car & Driver in to quote out of it, anyone interested should run out and buy the latest issue, this is IMHO the best car mag out there (though Automobile has their list of "100 coolest cars ever" this month).

I should have mentioned the article is headlined by a picture of a Lexus jumping a two-by-six (standing on edge, 6" high) on flat pavement. Yes.

My issue was I saw Bose using the same type of bs they shovel by the mountainload with this, too. And the usual skepticism the car guys show was a bit muted, which quite frankly ticked me off a bit.

I figure sooner or later someone will get a working system online, the payoff is too great to ignore. According to C&D the Bose system is theoreticly a huge leap forward in this area, it is VERY fast reading and moving, up and down.

I should have a scanner online here shortly, I'll post!

Pete

BTW, Thor, you are right, it's more to fix. More and more nowdays when I go to work on the car, I lift the hood, me and my buddies stare at it for a while, scratch our heads :scratch: , and take it to the shop!

Originally posted by LBPete
I’m clinically tone deaf in one ear. There are some frequencies I just don’t hear. That Bose audio system must concentrate it’s whole voice spectrum right in my dead range.

- Pete

Mabe Bose should start making hearing aids. :)

Why in the hell does everyone insist on b!tching about Bose all the time. I get so sick of seeing this kind of shit all the time on different audio forums!

Who gives a rat's ass if their techniques are unconventional. How in the hell can you call them on B.S. when they have been making the 901's since the 60's virtually unchanged, and being successful at it?! The same thing is true about their 301's, and their Acoustimass series.

Just because you don't and can't understand how they can produce big sound and decent low bass at high volumes with small drivers, then they are shit?!

Don't go giving them a bad rap and calling them shit just because you're too stupid to understand them or because they break tradition with normal speaker designs!!!!

I guess the Carver Sunfire subs are bullshit too because it's impossible to get sub 20Hz out of a small box and driver at high volumes?!?!?!

I swear, you people piss me the phuck off sometimes with your arrogance and ignorance!!!!

I've seen you're rig. Funny but I don't see any Bose speakers included. :p:


Mike

Originally posted by ProAc_Fan
I've seen you're rig. Funny but I don't see any Bose speakers included. :p:


Mike

Only because I haven't been able to find any 901's used in good shape in my price range.

To each their own I guess.



Mike

:blah:

:butt1:

Originally posted by chops
Why in the hell does everyone insist on b!tching about Bose all the time. I get so sick of seeing this kind of shit all the time on different audio forums!

Who gives a rat's ass if their techniques are unconventional. How in the hell can you call them on B.S. when they have been making the 901's since the 60's virtually unchanged, and being successful at it?! The same thing is true about their 301's, and their Acoustimass series.

Just because you don't and can't understand how they can produce big sound and decent low bass at high volumes with small drivers, then they are shit?!

Don't go giving them a bad rap and calling them shit just because you're too stupid to understand them or because they break tradition with normal speaker designs!!!!

I guess the Carver Sunfire subs are bullshit too because it's impossible to get sub 20Hz out of a small box and driver at high volumes?!?!?!

I swear, you people piss me the phuck off sometimes with your arrogance and ignorance!!!!

If you think AudioKarma has problems with arrogance and ignorance, then you must be new to audio forums.

As administrator, I read most everything that goes on here, and I suggest that you tone down your sensitivities. When you felt that you were being unduly chastised about driving a Hyundai, I showed you that I indeed drive a Daewoo. This sign of comraderie, or at least commisuration, seemed to allow you to understand that the reasons things work at AK is because we don't take people or things overly seriously.

Also as administrator, I fully endorse the bashing of Bose products :D . As I do Soundesign, Yorx, and others that I personally group Bose with.....personally I said, mind you.....everyone has a right to their opinion, and that is mine.

I would suggest from this point forward that you check your sensitivities at the homepage before you enter the forums from this point forth. This is good advice, take it to heart or go elsewhere.

As far as Bose goes, they best get their audio house in order before branching out.


Oh I would say they have their house in order... the marketing house... and as we have all said about consumers before,

J6P will continue to lust for Bose and there is nothing we can do about it.

So they take 3 dollar paper cones and stuff them into a 5 dollar plastic cube and sell them for a thousand dollars..

I only wish I had thought of it first... Then you would all be bashing "Elgarresta" sound systems... and I would have homes in NYC, Miami, Florence and Madrid!

Originally posted by Kamakiri
If you think AudioKarma has problems with arrogance and ignorance, then you must be new to audio forums.

As administrator, I read most everything that goes on here, and I suggest that you tone down your sensitivities. When you felt that you were being unduly chastised about driving a Hyundai, I showed you that I indeed drive a Daewoo. This sign of comraderie, or at least commisuration, seemed to allow you to understand that the reasons things work at AK is because we don't take people or things overly seriously.

Also as administrator, I fully endorse the bashing of Bose products :D . As I do Soundesign, Yorx, and others that I personally group Bose with.....personally I said, mind you.....everyone has a right to their opinion, and that is mine.

I would suggest from this point forward that you check your sensitivities at the homepage before you enter the forums from this point forth. This is good advice, take it to heart or go elsewhere.

As usual, the thread is turned around against me and now "I'm" the bad person.

How typical is that?! Whatever.

Originally posted by chops
As usual, the thread is turned around against me and now "I'm" the bad person.

How typical is that?! Whatever.

Apparently you are the kind of person that feels that they can open their mouths and say things such as :

"I swear, you people piss me the phuck off sometimes with your arrogance and ignorance!!!!"

....and then not be called to task on them.

People judge you by the words you use and how you use them, and therefore I rightly judged you by your words and offered you the benefit of my experience, which you are at this point ignoring.

Since you would rather feel the victim than be a participant in the Off Topic forums, you will no longer have access to them.

Originally posted by piece-it pete

I should have mentioned the article is headlined by a picture of a Lexus jumping a two-by-six (standing on edge, 6" high) on flat pavement. Yes.


As the Queen Mother would've said "We are not impressed" There's a film from 1955 which shows a torsion bar Packard, a Lincoln, a Cadillac, and an Imperial all crossing the same horrendous railroad crossing in Detroit.....all cross it at the same speed and angle.......all the cars except for the Packard sustained major frame or suspension damage. The Packard literally floated across it with the wheels bouncing madly but following the bumps the way they should.

As a matter of fact, one of the other cars actually got a little airborne and endured some body damage when it came down on the bumper!

The point I'm trying to make is that all this complexity of modern suspensions are at a point of diminishing returns. Think of them as the cable argument LOL. Seems that whatever increases in smoothness over the 4 wheel torsion bar system are offset by the cost, complexity, lowered reliability, and durability.

Not for a moment do I believe Packard's system the end all, be all of design........just the general layout. It would need mods to bring it up to today's standards of handling but this is not so much a problem as just a typical engineering exercise. One of it's key advantages is nearly no added unsprung weight because it is effectively part of the chassis and not the suspension....it only bears against the suspension. Such a cleverly simple design, that's why most engineers hate it! LOL

Anthony

Anthony,

I'd sure like to see that Packard suspension! Particularly Detroit can be blind engineeringwise. Back in the 70s Dr. Honda quietly bought a Caprice, reworked the emission controls to meet the upcoming pollution standards, and GAVE the car back to GM. Even more incredible, GM ignored the car. Another: a German engineer sees a bunch of test cars hopping up a test hill with bumps. He goes, I see you're working on rear wheel hop. Nope! They were checking durability. The German shakes his head in disbelief. My '97 Grand Marquis still has wheel hop.

Ahhh, the days when we were king. Of course, the 67 'vette Stingray 427 made up for a lot of crap! :yes: !! And I consider my big Merc to be an excellent value.

Anyway, the Lexus is not touching the 2x6, it "sees" it coming and launches the car over it by extending the shocks rapidly before impact.

Speed Racer, move over, here comes Dr. Bose :eek: !!

According to the article it has to be programmed for that trick (nod to WW), but the potential - wow.

Pete

Particularly Detroit can be blind engineeringwise. Back in the 70s Dr. Honda quietly bought a Caprice, reworked the emission controls to meet the upcoming pollution standards, and GAVE the car back to GM.

Ahh yes, I knew we couldn't get on the topic of automobiles without hearing about the evil Detroit Cabal, which intentionally builds deathtraps designed to kill people and ruin mother earth.

This Dr. Honda story is a new one on me however. IF such an urban-legend has a grain of truth, (which I doubt) I suspect that GM didn't care because they already had better technology on the shelf. This story wiil be filled along with "Detroit Automakers hire Mafia to kill inventor of water engine."

Taken from the website "WeLoveHondas.com"

Honda [1983] did away with the CVCC head design, as more stringent emissions standards required a new approach and the use of a catalytic converter.

And who came up with this catalytic techonolgy? G-freakin'-M When I was a kid doing auto-emissions testing at the local garage, two kinds of cars got an automatic pass... CVCC Hondas and Rotary Engines (Mazdas). That was because the state exempted them, as the numbers were small and the emissions were too expensice to clean-up for the owners.


I won't even mention that Chrysler offered a standard computer-controlled fuel/spark management system that allowed it's biggest-baddest cars to do without a catalytic converter, because in the field, techs didn't know how to work on it and usually f'ed it up. (It also didn't work well because computers of that era were far to slow for engine management). It monitored its own exhaust just like "modern" cars, and a set of computer instructions to control warm-up.

But the point is, when you have two "Detroit" companies that developed technology and principles that are still in use today on every model of internal combustion engine, I'd hardly call them "blind engineeringwise".

As for the Lexus that jumped over the 2x6, I understood what you meant. The rights to a similar system were purchased by Chrysler (Jeep) about 10-years ago. It used hydralic rams to allow the vehicle to "walk" over bumps. With faster computers it could liely do the same trick. It never saw prodcution because Jeep Marketing (rightly) figured that Jeep customers did not want the added complexity as a trade for a smoother ride. The small percentage of hard-core Jeep off-roaders influence the majority of wanna-bes, so they are very careful not to add uneeded complexity.

and Take The Keys And See were two of the slogans that Packard used in fatefully '55 and '56. Below is a pic and a link which explains the Torsion Level suspension. It was not without it's teething problems.........relays and switches were prone to corrosion and even road debris as they weren't protected well enough, but the basic system was extremely durable. I know of no reports of broken torsion bars. Not a slam, but Chrysler had quite a few failures early on as they didn't know initially that they needed to build a left and right hand side....once that was remedied then there were no other general failures except for some roof welds letting go on some NYC taxis (this was attributed to the stresses from the suspension). It's been said that Chrysler waited a year to introduce their system as they were concerned that Packard could claim that their's was twice as good! LOL Dunno if that's true.

http://www.1956packardpanther.com/torsionLevel.html

Make sure you click on the links at the bottom of that page

Anthony

Originally posted by chops
Who gives a rat's ass if their techniques are unconventional. How in the hell can you call them on B.S. when they have been making the 901's since the 60's virtually unchanged, and being successful at it?! The same thing is true about their 301's, and their Acoustimass series.



Successfull doesn't mean sound good I have a friend who got an Acoustimass system with his new house as a gift cuz his brother in law is affiliated with Bose somehow. Before then he listened to music on a huge pair of old 80's fishers and an 80's Technics receiver. He was all excited about the Bose system till he heard it, he immediatley tried to get his wife to allow his old gear into the new living room, she wouldn't budge so it sits in the basement and the fancy Bose system is in the living room. I have hear his acoustimass system and it really and truly sucks major ass and most cheap rack systems would easily sound better. For them to charge the kind money they do for their that POS should be a crime. I have also heard the new 901's and 301's or whatever all the bose crap is they sell at Best Buy and it all sounds like crap. And I am not an audiophile or someone with golden ears so you know their stuff must suck pretty hard for me to say so. Oh my mom has a Wave radio cd clock stereo and it sucks ass as well.

McDonalds sells more burgers than anybody but I wouldn't call it "fine dining". Bose is exactly the same. The uneducated masses have been marketed into believing the hype because they don't know any different. Cheap cabinets, cheap drivers and some direct reflecting hocus pocus do not a great loudspeaker make. Just like flash frozen horse meat can't produce a great hamburger.


Mike

Just like flash frozen horse meat can't produce a great hamburger.


::rofl::

If only that's what they really were! They would be good!

A whack job I know who works freight at San Fran airport told me some story about a load of Quala bear meat that came in from Australia and was being sent to McDonalds. He swears up and down this is true and that he saw it with his own eyes.

Friggin crack head, don't know if I believe him LOL

Anthony

Carmine,

Me, a Naderite conspiricist? :lmao:

Both those stories came from Car & Driver a while back.

It is undeniable that Detroit screwed the pooch in the 70s and 80s - or why did they lose so much market share? Their almost-arrogance in that period is well documented, on the whole, although in retrospect I came down too hard on the engineers, the execs probably deserve far more blame than the techs. If they had better tech on the shelf they sure did a poor job of getting it to market.

Detroit IN THAT PERIOD was an easy target. Using particularly Chrysler as an example gives me the shudders - ever own, say, a '81 Imperial? On the flip side, my '76 Lincoln was at least of average reliablility for the time, with a type of class you just can't find outside of a Rolls IMO (and gas mileage to match lol). Well maybe the Caddies, too.

I have got to get this article scanned somehow. If C&D says it's light years ahead of anything so far, in theory at least, I believe them.

Anthony, I'm printing that stuff, I'm going to take a hard look at it hopefully tonight.

I remember that when McDonalds opened up in Moscow (with 27 cash registers!) they served horsemeat burgers. So when I went through Heathrow airport a coupla years ago I asked the cashier at their Mcds' if they were beef - I got a very strange look! :D

Pete

Either McDonalds or BK got busted for using burgers made of Kangaroo meat a few years back I remember.