Hi,

I am looking to buy an Empire 498 turntable as a starter turntable. I am a complete noob when it comes to vinyl, but am technically copetent and have a fervor to learn about vinyl playback.

This particular 498 turned up on the local craigslist.

http://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/ele/1361880810.html

Can you experienced folk tell me if it is a good deal for someone who is just starting out in this hobby.
The owner says it is good to go and works perfectly.

The other option is to get a used P25 table cherry finish for 699 from a local dealer.

Please let me know which would be best for someone starting out.

Your information/impressions is much appreciated.
Cheers,
Sachu

Unless you purchase a vintage unit from a known experienced seller, expect trouble. These older tables are mechanical, and anything mechanical will need professional, knowledgeable service.

Though I'm not sure that the cartridges offered are really the best match for the arm (they are both fine cartridges especially the stanton) since they do better in a low mass arm, the coolness factor and the economics factor argue strongly for the Empire. Its only about half as expensive, and you are looking for a starter table (some starter table by most standards -- I would consider 32.50 a more common sum than 325), so go with the Empire. Sell or trade the Stanton for a lower compliance cartridge, and spend the rest of the dough on records.
The Pabst motor on the Empire is excellent, and they are great tables. The arms a massier than was the fashion in the late 60s and 70s, and the aesthetics were out of the mainstream, so they didn't have the reputation that some of the competition had, but if you hear one, I think you will love it.

When I posted, the other response wasn't up. I'd agree that for a complete novice, any table is potentially a hassle, but in this particular case, I'd disagree big time. Empires are very simple -- a motor, a belt, and a platter, and a plinth and an arm. There might be a light. If it works when you buy it, it will almost certainly work another couple of decades if treated reasonably well. The seller clearly knows what he is doing, and he is providing extras of the two things that can be problems -- the belt and the cartridge sled. Clearly he has put some effort into it, building a new plinth, so I assume he has treated it well.
My one fear is that it has already been sold -- they don't last long.

Thanks for the replies...

The guy is quite experienced. I believe the seller the same guy here. (http://cgi.audioasylum.com/cgi/mail.mpl?user_ID=41586&f=vinyl)

He says he has 5 other tables.
I spoke to him and he said the Empire was good to go..everything is setup, that I could audition it and he would show me how to set it up if I bought it.

I did some brief homework on the Empire and according to this website (http://www.cognitivevent.com/av_empire.html) the 498 with the Empire 2000/III cartridge i supposed to be quite good.
THe only caveats that I have come across with respect to the empire tables has been the RCA cables that are kinda wierd and the headshells being very hard to procure.

Also according to that website, upgrading the tonearm would need some major modding on the suspended models which start from the 498

EDIT: They are still available..I spoke to him an hour or so earlier

That Empire looks great. There's nothing wrong with a Rega but Empires are fantastic. I own a 208 and couldn't be happier with it.

I would second the Empire opinion. A superbly crafted table.

I just spoke to the guy again..

He says he has two cables (the original that goes from the tonearm to the RCA jacks). One is custom but is slightly noisy..the original works fine.

He has two headshells which he will include as well.

I told him I was a complete noob with no records on hand.
He told me that he would show me how to set up the table from scratch if need be.


Am seriously leaning towards the Empire now. He did offer me a Thorens TD125 table but for 375 if I was interested in something else.

Seems to me that moding the arm is a project for down the road. Get used to it, and after that decide whether it needs modification -- very likely you will decide it doesn't (look at all the people happily using the original AR turntable arm, even though its not all that hard to replace, and theoretically a better arm ought to sound better).
Actually, in the case of the Empire, if you really want a better arm, just go whole hog -- buy a really expensive table and arm and sell the Empire. You'll do fine financially -- the value of great tables isn't likely to go down much, since anything remotely as good new will cost tons.

Depends what arm is on the Thorens as to whether it might be a better choice, but if you are concerned about longevity, the electonics in the Thorens are a known pain. It uses a Wein bridge (don't ask me what that is, I just remember the name) as part of the speed control, and the components in electronics are complicated and famous for going kaput. And then you need to know what a Wein bridge is to fix them -- speaking from experience here.
The Thorens can be a very fine table, but also be aware that as a sprung subchassis table, it can be very sensitive to footfalls if not sited very carefully.

Thanks for the replies Nat. I am competent with electronics if I dare say so (Still a member of Team Arcy Sparky :P)

The Thorens he has is a Mk1 with a Jelco SA-250 tonearm. He says it has never given him a problem but acknowledged that they are known for the speed control breaking down.

The Thorens won't come with a cartridge though for 375$.
Sonically he placed the Thorens and Empire to be very close.

I believe this is the exact TD125 table (http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=vinyl&m=848769) that he is willing to sell..he is the seller I am conversing with.

If the guy with the Empire was willing to ship, it'd be in Geneva as we speak.

If the guy with the Empire was willing to ship, it'd be in Geneva as we speak.

The Empire or the Thorens..or both ? :D

The Empire or the Thorens..or both ? :D

I have a Thorens...I want an Empire. Sorry, that's as much advise as Im capable of. :scratch2:

That's a beautiful Empire, and the price seems more than reasonable.

Heck, I'd be tempted at that price, and I've already got an Empire (and a spare Empire! :para:).

A Thorens TD-150 is a nice table but an Empire 498 is a work of art. You don't see them that often.

Well I have an appointment with him tomorrow to go check them both out..I do love the look of that Empire TT.

I think both are plausible choices, especially as you can handle any electronics issues that pop up with the Thorens. The Jelco has some modern refinements that the 498 arm lacks, and is lower mass and more rigid, and those are pluses. On the other hand, by the time you get a cartridge, its going to 100 to 200 bucks more expensive.
I think your choice should be guided by ergonomics and taste. Some people like suspended subchasis tables and others don't. Use the Thorens, particularly cuing the arm, and see if the jiggling bugs you. If it does, go for the Empire. Otherwise, try both and see which sounds best to you, and which looks best. Its nice to have a turntable you really like, not just one you respect.

i've got an empire 208 that i'm real happy with. put a sumiko arm on it as it didn't have one when i got it.
the 498 may be a suspended table so a little different than the 208...
i also think empire tables tend to run a little fast.

i've got an empire 208 that i'm real happy with. put a sumiko arm on it as it didn't have one when i got it.
the 498 may be a suspended table so a little different than the 208...
i also think empire tables tend to run a little fast.

The ability to control the speed gets wonky if the washers under the motor attachment screws are worn out. This has happened to mine..they're too pliable and I can just barely fine tune the speed to where it's on, but it's still very very slightly fast. Supposedly if you replace those (replacements are available online if something more generic won't work) you can get speed locked back in. That's the only thing that needs replaced on my 208.

The ability to control the speed gets wonky if the washers under the motor attachment screws are worn out. This has happened to mine..they're too pliable and I can just barely fine tune the speed to where it's on, but it's still very very slightly fast. Supposedly if you replace those (replacements are available online if something more generic won't work) you can get speed locked back in. That's the only thing that needs replaced on my 208.

are you referring to the rubber grommets in each of the three motor mount screws?
i have some new ones that are supposed to work (they do look right) but i haven't replaced them yet.

There are arguments for and against each choice here, but if it were me, I'd go for...

The EMPIRE. Hands down. It is a less-common table, that should hold its value well among collectors. It should increase in value, as the other tables like the P25 --which, since it is a newer model, is still widely available while existing Empires are being increasingly hoarded in the hands of collectors-- are (if anything) depreciating (for a while). As someone said of the Empire, it's a work of art. I've yet to hear (read) of an Empire owner complaining about its sound. It has that respected Papst motor in it. That one you are looking at comes with a massive wooden plinth; a sure sign the its owner wanted to get the best sound out of it, and possibly has. He is including two cartridge clips (with cartridges). All that, and it is close to half of what the Rega is.

While it may not affect sound quality, which is probably most important to you, there is also the question of how you see yourself and this hobby. You could have the turntable of a sophisticated gentleman collector/audiophile (the Empire), or that of a newbie youngster vinyl spinner (the Rega). The choice is yours. I know which one I'd pick.

What about an update? What did you end up with? The Empire has been re-listed, now at $300.

The new listing just got taken down. Did you get it?

$300 for that table is a sweet deal. I would not put any entry level table at that price or near that price against a 498 in a heavy plinth. I hope the OP got it.

are you referring to the rubber grommets in each of the three motor mount screws?
i have some new ones that are supposed to work (they do look right) but i haven't replaced them yet.

Yep, that is what I was referring too. The speed is adjusted by one of the screws (IIRC, the closest on to the front) and as the grommets get looser/more felixible, the screw's ability to finely adjust speed diminishes. Mine still adjusts, but the fine tuning is kind of off. I couldn't get it dead on with a strobe disc.