Hi everyone,

I'm new to the forum and new to vinyl. I've been reading a lot of good things about the Rega P3-24, so I decided to go listen to one at the local Rega dealer this weekend. I also listened to a P2 on the same system, and I had difficulty telling a big difference between them--certainly not one that would justify $350. The reviews say that the P3-24 is such a great TT and a decent step up from the P2--what am I missing? Does it take some time to develop an ear for the nuances of vinyl? Are there non-sonic reasons to go with the P3-24 over the P2 (build quality, etc)? I'd like to buy one turntable and be done with it for a long time, so I want to get the best that I can afford, but on the other hand, $350 is 15-20 albums that I could enjoy in the meantime on a less expensive P2. Thoughts?

By the way, I auditioned it using Wilco's "Yankee Hotel Foxtrot." Maybe this record just doesn't bring out the difference between the decks...any advice for music that would more clearly show the difference?

Did you get a look at what cartridges were on the different TT's?

Did you get a look at what cartridges were on the different TT's?

Yea, the P3-24 had a Dynavector 10x5 and the P2 had an Ortofon 2M Red.

I don't know. If I couldn't hear a big difference, I would go with the cheaper one, but that's me. Hopefully someone more familiar with these tables will chime in.

Hi and welcome to the forum Crescent, I suspect that if you heard a difference between the two turntables in the less than ideal environment of your dealers listening room that at home on your equipment the difference(s) should be even more noticeable. Your dealer using two different cartridges certainly complicates an already difficult decision.

In your shoes, I'd select the P3-24 in a heartbeat but then I've had the opportunity to listen to a P2 and Goldring P2 clone for two years now. Both Regas you're considering are fine turntables but of the two I'd consider the P3-24 as be all end all turntable but have to admit I'm very happy with the P2 and have no burning desire to upgrade, I like the P2 that much.

I think a dealer audition is a great way to pick out a TT! Congrats for doing it.

I would use at least one LP that has very soft passages. I listen to a lot of classical and opera (among many other things) and the quiet and silent passages in this music can reveal a lot about a TT that is covered up by music that does not have such soft dynamics. It will also reveal a lot more about the grooves themselves, too, so try to pick some clean records.

Maybe give that a try?

I would listen to some solo piano with sustained chords to see if you can detect any wavering in the pitch.

From what I understand the P3 will easily work with an outboard power supply which, along with an overall improvement in sound quality will allow you to switch between 33 and 45 without fiddling with the belt.

i'd get the p2 or an older p3 and buy more records

A few things may be going on:

• Are you intimately familiar with the LP you auditioned (i.e., THE LP, not a CD version)? Despite the ubiquitous claims of one TT blowing away another, even the biggest differences between turntables can be very subtle on an absolute basis. So unless you know every note of the music you're auditioning and have listened to it many times, you may be unlikely to determine small differences—which often make a big difference to us vinyl dweebs.

• Were you able to really concentrate on the music? This is often difficult in an unfamiliar environment with possible distractions. Often, focusing on determining audible differences can cause a form of stress that distracts listeners.

• Perhaps the P2 was set up a bit better than the P3.

• And, of course, perhaps there really IS no audible differences between the two TTs.

Just some ideas.

-Bob

Unfortunately, an extra $350 doesn't buy a huge gain in audio...diminishing returns and all. If you move up a little, it would be difficult to be sure it was getting you anything at all. Surely there are turntables that are superior to others that cost at least $350 more.

Did the shop guy also use the same amp & speakers?

if they didn't have the same cartridges on them there is no point in trying to compare the tables sonically. All you were doing was comparing the two different cartridges.

if they didn't have the same cartridges on them there is no point in trying to compare the tables sonically. All you were doing was comparing the two different cartridges.

The tables were played on the same receiver and speakers, but yes, there were two different cartridges. By this logic, though, it seems like it would be best to buy the cheapest turntable possible and mount the best cartridge I can afford. What else is there that might make the more expensive table worthwhile? Surely the P3-24 must have some advantages over the P2, or P1, or $99 box store table...right?

Thanks for all the responses so far, keep them coming!

I think most in this forum agree that you are better off with the best turntable you can afford, as opposed to the best cartridge you can afford.

The tables were played on the same receiver and speakers, but yes, there were two different cartridges. By this logic, though, it seems like it would be best to buy the cheapest turntable possible and mount the best cartridge I can afford. What else is there that might make the more expensive table worthwhile? Surely the P3-24 must have some advantages over the P2, or P1, or $99 box store table...right?

We'll assume the salesperson didn't explain the differences between the two tables in question. Did your get the impression the salesperson lacked experience or knowledge? Are there any other stores you could demo these tables at within a reasonable distance?

There should have been a significant difference in sound between the two tables. You're right in suggesting the P3-24 should have a distinct advantage over the P2, especially with a superior cartridge. Logically, you should buy the P3-24 with a lesser cartridge if your budget is limited, and upgrade to a better cartridge later, as others have suggested.

Jeff

We'll assume the salesperson didn't explain the differences between the two tables in question. Did your get the impression the salesperson lacked experience or knowledge? Are there any other stores you could demo these tables at within a reasonable distance?

There should have been a significant difference in sound between the two tables. You're right in suggesting the P3-24 should have a distinct advantage over the P2, especially with a superior cartridge. Logically, you should buy the P3-24 with a lesser cartridge if your budget is limited, and upgrade to a better cartridge later, as others have suggested.

Jeff

No, the salesman didn't seem like he lacked knowledge, but he did tell me that "$350 isn't that much in the grand scheme of things" and that "I should just stay in a few evenings instead of going out" to save the extra dough. I asked him specifically what I should listen for in the P3-24, and he mentioned one place where the bass is "handled differently" or there is "more pick attack" in guitar work or detail in brushes on the snare drum. I couldn't hear the differences that he was pointing out, at least not "significantly," so I felt like he was either a) blowing smoke about the differences between the tables, or b) I'm just not hearing something that I should. So that's why I came here.

I read often that the P3-24 is "significantly better," but what exactly does that mean? The recommendation for soft piano work I think is a good one--anybody else have advice on music to audition or specific details to listen for that would really make the difference between the tables more clear to me?

Thanks!

I don't think that the differences between a properly setup P2 and a P3 with the same cartridge are that big. I think anyone would have a hard time, at a blind test, to point differences between the two. What is really strange is that you didn't notice differences between the THOSE two TT you tested, considering that the P3, besides being a theoretically superior TT, had a clearly superior cartridge...

I don't think that the differences between a P2 and a P3 with the same cartridge are that big. I think anyone would have a hard time, at a blind test, to point differences between the two. What is really strange is that you didn't notice differences between the THOSE two TT you tested, considering that the P3, besides being a theoretically superior TT, had a clearly superior cartridge...

I know. Weird. I was expecting a really big difference. There were sometimes when I thought the P3 *maybe* sounded better, but definitely not by a long shot. My girlfriend had a hard time distinguishing them too, so it wasn't just me. But then again, should two vinyl newbies that don't have any experience with the turntables or cartridges in question be able to distinguish those two setups?

Speaker shopping wasn't nearly this hard. Neither the girlfriend nor I had any trouble discerning differences among the ~$1000 bookshelf speakers we were comparing.

I think you should get a really good recording and try listen to the same passages on both TTs a few times. Once you'll hear a difference, and I'm sure you'll start to hear some differences, you will wonder how come you didn't hear it before.

There is something wrong here........The Dyna alone should sound way way better. They have also been said to mate perfectly with Rega arms. What exactly was the demo system made of, and do you have some good headphones and a record you use for setting up a cartridge available to test them again? Also I would see if you could get the same cart on both tables for a fair comparison of tables, and maybe get a tape made of the same passage played on both tables for home comparison, that is if you have a good tape deck. Anyhow if it were me and I had to choose I would choose the P2 with the Dyna instead of the Orto, just my 2cents though, Nick

G'day Crescent, you might want to have a read of this page specifically and related pages on this site for a differing viewpoint on turntables generally and then form your own opinion.

http://www.mds975.co.uk/Content/vinyl04.html

Regards, Felix aka catman.

I noticed in that link the SL 1200. At the beginning I thought about taking this opportunity to express my opinion about the SL1200MKII. I just had one for testing in the last couple of days. But I remembered that this TT has many fans on this forum, so better forget about it. I don't wanna upset anyone.

There is something wrong here........The Dyna alone should sound way way better. They have also been said to mate perfectly with Rega arms. What exactly was the demo system made of, and do you have some good headphones and a record you use for setting up a cartridge available to test them again? Also I would see if you could get the same cart on both tables for a fair comparison of tables, and maybe get a tape made of the same passage played on both tables for home comparison, that is if you have a good tape deck. Anyhow if it were me and I had to choose I would choose the P2 with the Dyna instead of the Orto, just my 2cents though, Nick

Nick,

Thanks for your reply. The speakers were either Rega RS3 or RS5--don't remember exactly which. The receiver was one of the Rega models--Cursa or Mira, I suppose--they all look the same. I'm new to all of this, so I don't have a good set of headphones, or a tape deck, or a piece of vinyl that I use to set up a cartridge as I've never done it before.

Can I ask why you would choose the P2? Is it just price, or are there other factors that might push you that way?

Thanks!

G'day Crescent, you might want to have a read of this page specifically and related pages on this site for a differing viewpoint on turntables generally and then form your own opinion.

http://www.mds975.co.uk/Content/vinyl04.html

Regards, Felix aka catman.

Felix,

Thanks for the link. I've also done some looking at the SL 1200, but I can't find one to demo around here. The link is interesting. I've had people tell me the "direct drive motors fluctuate at 3500 times per second, and then other people tell me that it isn't true. The link, though, suggests that the Rega tables run fast, and lots of people have told me that it isn't the case anymore, especially not with the P3-24. So, I feel like both sides of the argument perpetuate myths about the other and that makes it difficult to make decisions starting out.

Maybe I should just find a decent used table and put a decent cartridge on it, save some money, and listen for a while before I make any further investments.

Agree with Nick.

The Dyna is about the perfect match with the Rega arm. As nice a cartridge as the Ortofon is (and they are nice) the P3 Dyna combo should have walked all over it. I mean, it is so good, they should have had to force you out at closing time, cause all you wanna do is sit and listen to music! :)

Maybe I should just find a decent used table and put a decent cartridge on it, save some money, and listen for a while before I make any further investments.

That's what I would do. Get a decent used Rega and learn how to set it up yourself. You should be spinin' vinyl for $500 or less.

Jeff

That's what I would do. Get a decent used Rega and learn how to set it up yourself. You should be spinin' vinyl for $500 or less.

Jeff

If the OP is interested in starting off with a used 'table, there are plenty of decent vintage units out there that would get him going in vinyl for much less than the cost of a used Rega. I bought a used belt-drive Technics with a standard 1/2" cartridge mount last time I shopped for a turntable. Thorens, AR, Pioneer, Yamaha, Dual and many others also made turntables that would be worth considering as starter decks. Once he's hooked on vinyl and tuned in to the subleties of LP sound, he can go back into the new equipment market and relegate his used 'table to extension system duty.

I noticed in that link the SL 1200. At the beginning I tought about taking this opportunity to express my opinion about the SL1200MKII. I just had one for testing in the last couple of days. But I remembered that this TT has many fans on this forum, so better forget about it. I don't wanna upset anyone.

I think I may hold a similar opinion of said table, I think you can do ALOT better for the money, and its well fugly.

Nick,

Thanks for your reply. The speakers were either Rega RS3 or RS5--don't remember exactly which. The receiver was one of the Rega models--Cursa or Mira, I suppose--they all look the same. I'm new to all of this, so I don't have a good set of headphones, or a tape deck, or a piece of vinyl that I use to set up a cartridge as I've never done it before.

Can I ask why you would choose the P2? Is it just price, or are there other factors that might push you that way?

Thanks!

I personally would go for the P2 Dyan 10x5 combo and save a few bucks, and spend the money saved on some wire to rewire the tonearm (does wonders to the lower class rega arms) and get some records. Infact I would go for a used P2 or P3 and then have even more left over for some vinyl and possibly some other TT upgrades. I will say this, Regas just sound good and are easy to setup, good things for a new Vinyl user.

If you are a bit more DIY you could go for an AR xa or xb and stick a Technics 1200 arm on the sucker and have a great table as well, and one that wouldn't look like as* (as the 1200's do) and would be consideralbly less expensive than a 1200.

Just some opinions, Nick

Oh and as far as the DD vs. BD war I sit in the middle (I currently have a DD based DIY table as my main) I don't dislike the 1200's just because I hate DD's, there are plenty more reasons to dislike it, as are there are plenty of reasons to dislike pretty much any table, its all just opinion based and you just have to from your own from experiences and reading.

Hope this doesn't offend anyone, that was not my intention, Nick

What amp, speakers etc do you already have ?

to my mind, there should be a big difference between the Red and the 10x5.

A while back, I borrowed a 2M Red to try against my then Denon DL-160 and I preferred the Denon. When the cantilever snapped (my fault) on the Denon, I upgraded to a 10x5 and was amazed by the improvement.

... I will say this, Regas just sound good and are easy to setup, good things for a new Vinyl user.

They also run fast and have higher flutter than an AR, Linn or Technics, though the flutter is low enough that most (but not all) listeners won't be able to hear it.

... If you are a bit more DIY you could go for an AR xa or xb and stick a Technics 1200 arm on the sucker and have a great table as well, and one that wouldn't look like as* (as the 1200's do) and would be consideralbly less expensive than a 1200.

Just some opinions, Nick

Mounting an SL-1200 arm on an AR XA is not a trivial exercise. I'd hesitate to take it on, and I'm quite handy and have had years of experience in audio.

What amp, speakers etc do you already have ?

I have a Harman Kardon 3490 and a pair of B&W CM1's. Would this system be able to justify a P3 over a P2?

They also run fast and have higher flutter than an AR, Linn or Technics, though the flutter is low enough that most (but not all) listeners won't be able to hear it.


BS, the ones I have been dealing with the past few years have all been spot on. That "Regas run fast" rumor has been debunked several times since there was one report on that about a decade ago...

And, as far as flutter, I tried my best to hear any with the P-5 I recently set up and even on sustained piano notes there wasn't a hint of it...but, I have seen it in early examples that have "been around the block" where the center subplatter has been boinked and becomes a bit eccentric or wobbly...not exactly the table's fault there...


Mounting an SL-1200 arm on an AR XA is not a trivial exercise. I'd hesitate to take it on, and I'm quite handy and have had years of experience in audio.

You don't replace the entire arm with the 1200's, only the wand part from the pivot forward...easy, simple, takes a half hour hour at most....

And, to the original poster:

Get yourself a piece of music that has excellent production values, is well pressed, and is in excellent condition. Listen to the exact same snippet of the recording over and over...try and memorize the subtle details between the notes, if you can, it's the small, subtle, almost subliminal things that go together and combine to make sound excellent or ordinary...then try it on the two different tables....any dealer that knows his stuff is going to have someone to help guide you in what to listen for...once you hear it and you know what to listen for, it will become easier....it's taken me over 30 years of practice to get to where I am today....but, it was the very first session with a dealer in 1984 that showed me how to listen and what to listen for that opened my eyes, err, ears, to what things go together to make a decent sound reproducer....

Unfortunately, most of the rock and popular repertoire does not qualify as excellent audiophile quality media...sorry, but those pieces are few and far between in the great amount of pressings that have been made in the past 50+ years since stereo LP's became commonly available....

So, if you use something that is sonically compromised to set up a system, or to audition one, then you will not understand the systems full potential, and never really hear what it is capable of delivering...

Vinyl is one of the harder aspects of home audio to chase, though, as there is more knowledge needed of it to get decent sound, and how to set things up properly, than just taking a component and plugging it in...

The P3-24 has a few things over the P-2, namely the motor, tonearm, and glass platter...it is also adaptable to the external turntable power supply unit which gives even greater speed stability and can be added later...

If you were to spend time with both you would find that there are subtle, but significant improvements in the P3-24 over the P-2...

And, the P-3 will always be an item which you can easily turn if you and analog don't agree, or if you want something better in the future...

It is a journey, but if you like music, then it's a fun one!

Good Luck.

I think I may hold a similar opinion of said table, I think you can do ALOT better for the money, and its well fugly.

Same here, and I'm also with those who've pointed out that the 10X5 should have sounded clearly better than the 2M - I say that as a 10X5 owner btw. If you're on the fence about it because you didn't hear much of a difference, maybe you should get the P2, but definitely get the best cartridge you can afford. There's so many factors that could have come into play here, one of which is how long each cartridge has been used for, and how broken in they are. Another, as someone already noted, is proper setup. In the long run you're going to be better off with the 10X5, especially on that tonearm, it's proven to be a great match.

BS, the ones I have been dealing with the past few years have all been spot on. That "Regas run fast" rumor has been debunked several times since there was one report on that about a decade ago...

And, as far as flutter, I tried my best to hear any with the P-5 I recently set up and even on sustained piano notes there wasn't a hint of it...but, I have seen it in early examples that have "been around the block" where the center subplatter has been boinked and becomes a bit eccentric or wobbly...not exactly the table's fault there...



You don't replace the entire arm with the 1200's, only the wand part from the pivot forward...easy, simple, takes a half hour hour at most....

And, to the original poster:

Get yourself a piece of music that has excellent production values, is well pressed, and is in excellent condition. Listen to the exact same snippet of the recording over and over...try and memorize the subtle details between the notes, if you can, it's the small, subtle, almost subliminal things that go together and combine to make sound excellent or ordinary...then try it on the two different tables....any dealer that knows his stuff is going to have someone to help guide you in what to listen for...once you hear it and you know what to listen for, it will become easier....it's taken me over 30 years of practice to get to where I am today....but, it was the very first session with a dealer in 1984 that showed me how to listen and what to listen for that opened my eyes, err, ears, to what things go together to make a decent sound reproducer....

Unfortunately, most of the rock and popular repertoire does not qualify as excellent audiophile quality media...sorry, but those pieces are few and far between in the great amount of pressings that have been made in the past 50+ years since stereo LP's became commonly available....

So, if you use something that is sonically compromised to set up a system, or to audition one, then you will not understand the systems full potential, and never really hear what it is capable of delivering...

Vinyl is one of the harder aspects of home audio to chase, though, as there is more knowledge needed of it to get decent sound, and how to set things up properly, than just taking a component and plugging it in...

The P3-24 has a few things over the P-2, namely the motor, tonearm, and glass platter...it is also adaptable to the external turntable power supply unit which gives even greater speed stability and can be added later...

If you were to spend time with both you would find that there are subtle, but significant improvements in the P3-24 over the P-2...

And, the P-3 will always be an item which you can easily turn if you and analog don't agree, or if you want something better in the future...

It is a journey, but if you like music, then it's a fun one!

Good Luck.

Amen!





Even though we don't see eye to eye on Grado's.......:D

... You don't replace the entire [AR] arm with the 1200's, only the wand part from the pivot forward...easy, simple, takes a half hour hour at most....


Thanks for the clarification. I could see doing this if the original AR headshell had stripped threads, as they're getting tough to find and expensive. Otherwise, why bother? Changing the arm wand and re-using the original post and horizontal bearing leaves you with a tonearm that doesn't have an anti-skate adjustment.

Can't hear the difference? Welcome to "The Sound of Rega". For comparison, I suggest a listen to another brand before commiting to either the P2 or P3.

If it has to be either/or, my choice would probably be for the P2 with the 10x5. I don't know the differences between the tables, but the 250 is widely regarded as the better arm.

but the 250 is widely regarded as the better arm.

I was under the impression that the whole issue with Rega tonearms is just that they need to be re-wired - maybe I'm wrong?

Can't hear the difference? Welcome to "The Sound of Rega". For comparison, I suggest a listen to another brand before commiting to either the P2 or P3.

If it has to be either/or, my choice would probably be for the P2 with the 10x5. I don't know the differences between the tables, but the 250 is widely regarded as the better arm.

Hmm. Interesting. I would have thought that the 301 would be considered better. Can you point to a review of the arms? What makes it a better arm?

Thanks for the help!

The P3-24 has a few things over the P-2, namely the motor, tonearm, and glass platter...

Good Luck.

Thanks for this post! Another poster, below, just claimed that the 250 is a better arm than the 301. Opinions?

BS, the ones I have been dealing with the past few years have all been spot on. That "Regas run fast" rumor has been debunked several times since there was one report on that about a decade ago...
<snip>


Thank you! I get a little tired of the same Rega speed "BS" being repeated over and over again.

Hmm. Interesting. I would have thought that the 301 would be considered better. Can you point to a review of the arms? What makes it a better arm?

Thanks for the help!
The spring in the 301 is resonant. As well it's thought that the bearing arrangement of the 250 is better. According to Origin Live, a modified RB 250 is superior to a similarly modified RB 300, 600 or 900 arm.

http://www.tonearm.co.uk/tonearm.htm

So why are there no "specs" for Rega? Wow/flutter, rumble, S/N, etc.? Just curious if any such information exists since it seems that many TT manufacturers provide such information. At least I have not been able to find any in my searches.

Linn had an article out some years ago that an audio shop (where I worked part-time) used to share with customers to aid them in the evaluation process. The idea wasn't to focus on "hi-fi" (that is, bass, treble, stereo image, etc.) but on musical values. Linn suggested asking yourself questions like 1) Do all the musicians seem to be playing together? 2) Can you hear all the instruments all the time? 3) Can you pick out the bassline or any other musical part and follow it without difficulty? 4) Are you responding to the music--for example, tapping in time or singing along (in your head if too self-conscious to do so aloud)? The piece of equipment that lets you answer with a more resounding yes to these questions is the one that's giving you more musical information. Linn also emphasized that "there's no need to justify with words or jargon what you feel sounds best. It's really just a matter of 'this sounds better than that.'" Or, in some cases, "they sound the same to me."

My advice is to not pay for an "improvement" that you can't hear. The P2 is a fine turntable that may well meet your playback expectations. Audition them again, listening for the musical (as opposed to sonic or hi-fi effect) qualities each 'table has to offer, and if they sound equally good to you, buy the cheaper one.

So why are there no "specs" for Rega? Wow/flutter, rumble, S/N, etc.? Just curious if any such information exists since it seems that many TT manufacturers provide such information. At least I have not been able to find any in my searches.

Rega's head honcho, Roy Gandy, doesn't believe in publishing specs, so you won't find any at the company Web site. Most of the mags that review Rega products, such as Stereophile, also refrain from measuring the turntables.

That said, I did find two interesting reviews at the Stereophile Web site. Art Dudley reviewed the Planar 1 for the May 2007 issue and heard the flutter. In his words, "[T]he only consistent flaw I heard in the P1's performance was a lingering trace of pitch instability, as heard in sustained piano chords and the like." Mike Fremer reviewed the P3-24 for the July 2008 issue and found the turntable's speed to be 0.7% fast. Quoting again, "I connected a digital voltmeter capable of measuring frequency to the amplifier's output and played a 1kHz test tone recorded at 331/3rpm. The result was 1007Hz, ±1Hz—an insignificant deviation." Musicians with perfect pitch, or a well-developed sense of relative pitch, might not agree with Mr. Fremer's characterization of the speed error as "insignificant."

Maybe there's a reason that Rega doesn't publish specs ... :sigh:

^ I used a simple strobe disc on the P2 that I have - it's fast, but not by much.

There are 2 schools of thought on the importance of specs - those that do and those that don't think they are relevant. It's up to the listener to make up his own mind.

I was under the impression that the whole issue with Rega tonearms is just that they need to be re-wired - maybe I'm wrong?

Yes, the simpler arm is really a better platform....but, the tracking force is more of a dynamic setting vs. a static setting when you use the 3XX arm vs. the 2XX....some like dynamic VTF, others prefer static....six of one, half a dozen of another...

And yes, the Rega arms do improve substantially with the Incognito rewiring and adding a decent, low slung counterweight like the Michell Technoweight....

I've even rewired a few of the Rega arms that OL did with their "internal rewire" (and please, don't spend the money on it, get the real deal, the Incognito instead*), and the Incognito was better...I've even rewired a few of the OL Silver arms with the Incognito and they, too, sounded better...cleaner, clearer, more extended, and entire layer of haze and distortion just disappears when you get rid of the crummy Rega cartridge tags, three types of wire, and a couple of extra solder joints...the only time, and it's the only time I can think of that the OL internal and external rewire might be better is in combination with moving magnet cartridges that are extremely sensitive to capacitive effects...but I haven't seen any yet...

With the Technoweight, there is no reason to have the dynamically loaded VTF of the RB3XX series as there is an easy way to "dial in" the VTF...

So, if one had to choose just between tonearms, then I would say the 2XX series is the way to go...but, the P3-24 is still a better platform, for a Rega....

*NOTE:
I have no financial interest in the Incognito products or Brit Audio, I just use them and have heard how much they transform the Rega based tonearms for the better, that's all...

crescent, just take the P2 with the Dynavector!

The idea wasn't to focus on "hi-fi" (that is, bass, treble, stereo image, etc.) but on musical values. Linn suggested asking yourself questions like 1) Do all the musicians seem to be playing together? 2) Can you hear all the instruments all the time? 3) Can you pick out the bassline or any other musical part and follow it without difficulty? 4) Are you responding to the music--for example, tapping in time or singing along (in your head if too self-conscious to do so aloud)?

I agree with the idea of focusing on the music rather than the "hi-fi," but that other old Linn catechism always struck me as useless. I find that I can answer "yes" to items 1 through 4 on even the cheapest systems. Yet this mantra has been repeated ad infinitum for decades. I understand you're just quoting, jr, but I've always thought all that was a load of nonsense.

-Bob

I thought musicians and other experts in the world of music could answer "yes" to those questions listening to a clock radio...and I don't mean those ubiquitous pseudo hi-fi clock radios...I mean anything that will make the noise.

We may wonder why after all these years of people measuring the Regas speed accuracy, Gandy still persists with this 0.1 or whatever faster speed accuracy. The only logical conclusion I can find is that he's doing it on purpose, as many people say. Maybe this is the Rega sound as he sees it, something that defines the Rega sound (because I think we can agree that there is a Rega sound) and he won't change it, ever.

To find out the differences betwenn the P2 and P3-24 Chad harper or Steve Daniels @ The Sound Organisation will be glad to help (www.soundorg.com) 972-234-0182

http://www.soundorg.com/contact.html

To find out the differences betwenn the P2 and P3-24 Chad harper or Steve Daniels @ The Sound Organisation will be glad to help (www.soundorg.com) 972-234-0182

http://www.soundorg.com/contact.html

Miner,

Thanks for the tip.

I think the P2 and more records would be a wiser choice. Than get about a $300 cartridge some day for it. Biggest change I ever heard was MM to a MC cartridge.

I think that if one wanted to start with the P-2, that's fine...but, it doesn't have the motor of the P-3 and even if you do all the other upgrades one can do to a Rega, the P-2 will still be at least one step behind the similar amount of work spent on a P3-24....

Suggested upgrade path for P-3:
Incognito kit
Michell Technoweight
Michell VTA adjuster
MC cartridge
Groovetracer subplatter
Rega TT-PSU

To the P-2 I would add the glass Rega platter or the Groovetracer acrylic one after the arm modifications...and you won't be able to utilize the better, quieter motor of the P2-24 or it's external power supply...

And, after playing with a brand spanking new P-5 recently, I would rather spend the same money on setting up a P3-24 with the Incognito rewire and the Technoweight and still be money ahead of the P5 and have a better music machine, in my experience...add the Groovetracer subplatter and you are in the same ball park as the P5 in cost and will have a better performing table to boot...add the Rega TT-PSU and the table really will have nothing to it that one could object to, speed, pitch instability, nothing....

If you are going to use any kind of a decent cartridge on a Rega then it is imperative in my book to replace the abysmal stock wiring, and this is endemic on all but the top of the line Rega RB1000 arms...yes, the new external wire on the P3 does give it a leg up over the previous garbage, but they leave all the other bad stuff still in the arm...

The new 24 volt motor also induces less of an electrical field around itself in comparison to the older line voltage item, as is still in the P2....

So, if the price of the P3 is not going to hurt you, then get it...if you have to be more conservative in your spending, then get the P2...but realize that it can not ever be brought up to the level of a P3-24 that has had the same amount of attention give to it...

Rega also offers a bit upscale version of the P3-24 in colors (http://www.rega.co.uk/html/p3-24%20colours.htm) that are really great looking and include the TT-PSU since Rega didn't want to screw up the plinth's finish by sticking an ugly switch in it!

If you like the Rega and you have the funds, then try and buy the best that you can afford, and if it were me, I 'd take the P3-24 w/TT-PSU in piano gloss black...and then do the upgrades one at a time...or, if you can afford it, all at once for a real shocker....

Wow I didn't know the P3 was available in different colors like that.

has anyone measured the speed of a rega while it is actually playing a record ?...perhaps the stylus drag negates the slightly faster speed that some people mention as a fault on these decks..:scratch2:

you sometimes get the same effect on direct drive turntables that have speed adjustment pots but no quartz lock...the speed looks constant and stable until you lower the stylus on to a record...then you have to compensate for stylus drag by resetting the speed..

just a thought :scratch2:

Crescent, you're lucky. If you and you girlfriend can't hear the difference, or it's really minor, then buy the P2. It's a fine deck and will take better cartridges than the Ortofon if you decide to upgrade at some time in the future.

Unfortunately a lot of HiFi is bullshit. There's lots of vested interests in asserting a more expensive turntable is better, particularly from salesmen, HiFi mags and, sadly forums, where the norm is to say what you happen to have or have heard is best.

I agree with the idea of focusing on the music rather than the "hi-fi," but that other old Linn catechism always struck me as useless. I find that I can answer "yes" to items 1 through 4 on even the cheapest systems. Yet this mantra has been repeated ad infinitum for decades. I understand you're just quoting, jr, but I've always thought all that was a load of nonsense.

It's a relative thing, a comparison. You left out of your quote the part about a "more resounding" yes. I was able to enjoy music on a low-end Thorens, but I get a lot more from my LP12 and WTRP. And I wouldn't say that I'm just quoting--this really is the way I've compared components since learning of it some 25 years ago. It helped me as a customer then and was later an aid to the customers I worked with in my brief six years in audio sales. Since the OP wasn't hearing differences between the P2 and P3-24 by whatever criteria he was listening for, I suggested this method of comparison as something to try. There's no harm in it.

has anyone measured the speed of a rega while it is actually playing a record ?...perhaps the stylus drag negates the slightly faster speed that some people mention as a fault on these decks..:scratch2:

you sometimes get the same effect on direct drive turntables that have speed adjustment pots but no quartz lock...the speed looks constant and stable until you lower the stylus on to a record...then you have to compensate for stylus drag by resetting the speed..

just a thought :scratch2:

Check my previous post in this thread. Michael Fremer of Stereophile measured the speed of a Rega P3-24 review sample by playing a test record with a 1 kHz sine wave. He measured a frequency of 1007 Hz, which means that the turntable was running 0.7% fast as the stylus tracked the groove. This is outside the + 0.3% tolerance that the National Association of Broadcasters specified for broadcast turntables, which most serious home stereo turntables of the 1960s and 1970s met easily.

That's interesting, considering many believe that the speed issue is a thing of the past for all Regas. I had a P2 back in the day. We fixed the speed issue with a single layer of electricians tape on the sub-platter. It ran perfect for years with that simple fix.

Jeff

That's interesting, considering many believe that the speed issue is a thing of the past for all Regas. I had a P2 back in the day. We fixed the speed issue with a single layer of electricians tape on the sub-platter. It ran perfect for years with that simple fix.

Jeff

For what they cost new you should not have to do that to "fix" anything. If I recall, Rega came out with a speed controller box you had to buy separate to address the speed issue.

Based on the sampling method used, buy the best sounding cartridge and put it on the least expensive tt.

I personally dislike the lower Rega line. They are poorly constructed, and use cheap-looking materials (at least the P2 and the P3-24 do). So I would avoid them entirely :D . I'd also suggest that any sonic improvements should not be equated to price. One pays the extra dollars to get a better built turntable, that will last longer, and has superior craftsmanship. The sound improvement is negligible, in my opinion.

I'd suggest taking a look at the Pro-Ject RM5-SE, which has a nice carbon fiber arm, thick platter, and a quality finished plinth (although odd shaped).

Otherwise, you can't go wrong with a nice used table, especially for $1K.

The Regas are NOT poorly made (won't comment on the P1, since i have ot looked at it well enough). They are designed to release vibrations. Weight is NOT a good thing in the Rega world.

When Fremer tested the P2 and P3 in 1996, he wrote:

I used a variety of test discs to check out the two 'tables' speed accuracy, wow and flutter, noise level, rumble, etc., and the arms' tracking ability and resonance points when fitted with a variety of cartridges. All tests were performed with the 'tables resting on a Townshend Seismic Sink sitting on a spiked, four-tiered Target stand resting on four A.R.T. Q-Damper feet.

Both 'tables ran at precisely 331/3. Using wow/flutter test tracks on Stereo Review's handy-dandy SRT14-A Test Record, I found wow and flutter to be "very low indeed," as Julian Hirsch would say. Both 'tables exhibited very low noise on "silent groove" bands, and both arms handled all of the cartridges in exemplary fashion.

Of the P3-24, what Fremer wrote was:

The P3-24 ran almost precisely at both 331/3rpm and 45rpm—which, of course, is a turntable's Job No.1. I connected a digital voltmeter capable of measuring frequency to the amplifier's output and played a 1kHz test tone recorded at 331/3rpm. The result was 1007Hz, ±1Hz—an insignificant deviation.

The Regas are NOT poorly made (won't comment on the P1, since i have ot looked at it well enough). They are designed to release vibrations. Weight is NOT a good thing in the Rega world.

I'll edit my opinion by saying the Rega arms are very nice and well built. The plinth, platter and the rest though, look and feel crapola to me.

Remember that it is only an opinion, and that I am giving my impression of the turntables only, not the people who may own one.

I'll edit my opinion by saying the Rega arms are very nice and well built. The plinth, platter and the rest though, look and feel crapola to me.

Remember that it is only an opinion, and that I am giving my impression of the turntables only, not the people who may own one.

Art Dudley (as always) explains it well:

Like most Rega record players—and especially like the very first, the Planar 3—the P1 has a purposeful, unfussy appearance: a simple-looking, lightweight wooden plinth covered in dark, semigloss laminate. The underlying design is less simple, however—something that Rega's many imitators have missed over the years—and is the direct result of designer Roy Gandy's abiding belief that a massive plinth is massively good for one thing only: the storing of unwanted resonant energy (which always gets rereleased, and which doesn't wait for you to flip the record over before doing so). That plinth sits on three of the same multi-tiered rubber pods that have supported Rega Planar turntables since time out of mind: Each of the three feet supports an area of different mass compared with the other two, and is thus "tuned" to a slightly different frequency.

There is nothing "cheap" or crappy about the Regas (again, not including the P1). The materials are picked for very good design reasons, engineered the way Roy Gandy thinks they should be. Liking them or not is a different issue. But they are very well designed and made of good quality materials. Maybe not the materials you like or are used to, but good nonetheless.
It is like comparing a Lotus Elise to a Bugatti Veyron. Both are great performance cars, but they are designed in very different ways, with very different goals in mind.

...There is nothing "cheap" or crappy about the Regas (again, not including the P1). The materials are picked for very good design reasons, engineered the way Roy Gandy thinks they should be. Liking them or not is a different issue. But they are very well designed and made of good quality materials. Maybe not the materials you like or are used to, but good nonetheless.
It is like comparing a Lotus Elise to a Bugatti Veyron. Both are great performance cars, but they are designed in very different ways, with very different goals in mind.

I'm not knocking the performance of the three lower model Rega's, only the bland appearance and feel of them. The laminate is the big problem for me, it just looks and feels cheap. So much so, that I can't justify the cost. I know that they have great performance and, as was pointed out, the material choices have definite purpose. Unfortunately, those materials and finishes are not very attractive looking.

And this is from ToneAudio review of Rega P1:

The big problem that has occasionally plagued lower end Rega tables in years past has been speed accuracy. The test sample had perfect speed accuracy so I think the folks at Rega have this nailed.

http://www.sigsound.com/PDFs/P1ToneIssue8.pdf

Of the P3-24, what Fremer wrote was:

The P3-24 ran almost precisely at both 331/3rpm and 45rpm—which, of course, is a turntable's Job No.1. I connected a digital voltmeter capable of measuring frequency to the amplifier's output and played a 1kHz test tone recorded at 331/3rpm. The result was 1007Hz, ±1Hz—an insignificant deviation.

If Mr. Fremer sees a pitch deviation of 12 cents (12/100 of a semitone) sharp as insignificant, he is obviously not a musician. For many musicians, that pitch error would be reason enough to cross the P3-24 off their shopping lists. It's certainly reason enough for me.

If Mr. Fremer sees a pitch deviation of 12 cents (12/100 of a semitone) sharp as insignificant, he is obviously not a musician. For many musicians, that pitch error would be reason enough to cross the P3-24 off their shopping lists. It's certainly reason enough for me.

As a musician with a decent ear, I agree. (I have only 1 turntable with really really good pitch stability.)

I'm not knocking the performance of the three lower model Rega's, only the bland appearance and feel of them. The laminate is the big problem for me, it just looks and feels cheap. So much so, that I can't justify the cost. I know that they have great performance and, as was pointed out, the material choices have definite purpose. Unfortunately, those materials and finishes are not very attractive looking.

Then take a look at the P3-24 in colors...

Personally, I do not like the looks of the 3/4 picture frame around the P5's and P7's, with the little strip of neoprene foam in the miters....

The P9 is nice, but at that price level there's a lot more that I'd look into first....

Just a couple of reflections regarding some parameters. I would not like think that there should be any evident truth in that a lighter plinth should be better than a heavy one. It seems to me that the best TTs are using a plinth that will not easily be effected by some frequency energy, and that is normally a very heavy one.

Specifications are generally tricky and being consumer products I have very hard to believe that, even if there is some presented, they can be trusted.

What parameters should really be measured to tell us how the TT will sound?
Certainly not only the ones that are reluctantly presented.
gusten

Then take a look at the P3-24 in colors...

Personally, I do not like the looks of the 3/4 picture frame around the P5's and P7's, with the little strip of neoprene foam in the miters....

The P9 is nice, but at that price level there's a lot more that I'd look into first....

I agree about the picture frame thing. The P3-24 in color is better, but still, for $1295? No deal.

The P9 has the very sweet RB1000 tone-arm, which I'd love to have. Again though, the profile, proportions and design of the rest of the table looks too dainty to me, although all the materials are top-notch. But for $5K? Hmmm, I'd much rather have the Clearaudio Avant Garde Magnum CMB, or the VPI Classic with a Dorian Lyra Argo Cartridge.

The tables were played on the same receiver and speakers, but yes, there were two different cartridges. By this logic, though, it seems like it would be best to buy the cheapest turntable possible and mount the best cartridge I can afford. What else is there that might make the more expensive table worthwhile? Surely the P3-24 must have some advantages over the P2, or P1, or $99 box store table...right?

Thanks for all the responses so far, keep them coming!


I'm a firm believer in this method with some very important caveats. 1.) did you listen with headphones so you can eliminate all room variables? Use you phones that you know by heart. 2.) Is the table quiet enough for soft passages? This is hard to evaluate with most phono stages in a receiver due to the amount of electronic noise in the noise floor. But it is one of the big differences in price - quiet costs. 3.) Is the cartridge you have selected good enough to get all the details you want on that arm without sibilance or smearing, muffling, over forward areas in the signal, etc. Details, balance and speed (responsiveness) cost too. 4.) is the speed dead stable? Either quartz lock or a speed sensitive feedback loop are usually needed to keep it dead on for years.

I do this with functioning older tables. I like quartz locked speed. I like to swap cartridges to match LPs too. I'm not a fan of one cartridge for all, but it's not bad if that's your style. If all these conditions are met, it's budget that must rule :yes:

Ah yes, the Rega upgrades....

I went through that with an RB250; wound up with a very expensive budget arm. I'm not sure the op is looking forward to spending 3x the cost he started out with just to get better performance.

As I suggested in my 1st post, compare the stock Rega with another brand - ideally in the same price bracket. IMO it's not tough to beat for the money, but some people just prefer "The Sound of Rega".

I think that if one wanted to start with the P-2, that's fine...but, it doesn't have the motor of the P-3 and even if you do all the other upgrades one can do to a Rega, the P-2 will still be at least one step behind the similar amount of work spent on a P3-24....

Suggested upgrade path for P-3:
Incognito kit
Michell Technoweight
Michell VTA adjuster
MC cartridge
Groovetracer subplatter
Rega TT-PSU

To the P-2 I would add the glass Rega platter or the Groovetracer acrylic one after the arm modifications...and you won't be able to utilize the better, quieter motor of the P2-24 or it's external power supply...

And, after playing with a brand spanking new P-5 recently, I would rather spend the same money on setting up a P3-24 with the Incognito rewire and the Technoweight and still be money ahead of the P5 and have a better music machine, in my experience...add the Groovetracer subplatter and you are in the same ball park as the P5 in cost and will have a better performing table to boot...add the Rega TT-PSU and the table really will have nothing to it that one could object to, speed, pitch instability, nothing....

If you are going to use any kind of a decent cartridge on a Rega then it is imperative in my book to replace the abysmal stock wiring, and this is endemic on all but the top of the line Rega RB1000 arms...yes, the new external wire on the P3 does give it a leg up over the previous garbage, but they leave all the other bad stuff still in the arm...

The new 24 volt motor also induces less of an electrical field around itself in comparison to the older line voltage item, as is still in the P2....

So, if the price of the P3 is not going to hurt you, then get it...if you have to be more conservative in your spending, then get the P2...but realize that it can not ever be brought up to the level of a P3-24 that has had the same amount of attention give to it...

Rega also offers a bit upscale version of the P3-24 in colors (http://www.rega.co.uk/html/p3-24%20colours.htm) that are really great looking and include the TT-PSU since Rega didn't want to screw up the plinth's finish by sticking an ugly switch in it!

If you like the Rega and you have the funds, then try and buy the best that you can afford, and if it were me, I 'd take the P3-24 w/TT-PSU in piano gloss black...and then do the upgrades one at a time...or, if you can afford it, all at once for a real shocker....