View Full Version : Thorens TP60 (headshell) gauge dimensions


the_nines
09-09-2009, 07:49 AM
Hope this crude diagram is of help to those wishing to build their own gauge.
The measurements are in (mm) and are as precise as I can possibly make them.
The gauge is used to allign the stylus tip to a specific point on the gauge.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n201/evanged/IMG_2729.jpg


The gauge is the acrylic looking thing below with "Thorens" written on it.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n201/evanged/IMG_2714-1.jpg

Good luck & hope this helps.

Cheers.

the_nines
02-23-2010, 06:34 AM
Bump...

If anyone is interested.

REDone
02-23-2010, 06:41 AM
That's brilliant thanks

I've lost count of the number of times I've asked for this info

Others will thank you if you post this on Vinyl Engine Forum

Cheers

ehoove
02-23-2010, 08:42 AM
I'm sure many can use this info. I personally use an alignment protractor and adjust the VTA via the tone arm mount. But great Thorens info!
Regards,
Jim

Mc_Man
02-23-2010, 08:58 AM
I'm sure many can use this info. I personally use an alignment protractor and adjust the VTA via the tone arm mount. But great Thorens info!
Regards,
Jim

Which protractor are you using for your TD160, I have an MKII and am mot sure which one to use.

Balifly
02-23-2010, 10:36 AM
Looks very much like the one that came with the Philips turntable.
I have one.
The Dual have a similar one.
The dimensions for all three should be collected and store somewhere!

4dryhme
02-23-2010, 11:30 AM
Looks very much like the one that came with the Philips turntable.
I have one.
The Dual have a similar one.
The dimensions for all three should be collected and store somewhere!

So! I knew the Duals came with one and obviously I knew the Philips came with one, but heretofore didn't know some of the Thorens came with one as well.

Here's a shot showing the Philips one from the manual which is as close to seeing one that I've gotten since ours sadly, like so many second hand units, came without one.

http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab285/sansan445/Philips/jig.jpg

Hen's teeth indeed.

Old_Tech
02-23-2010, 11:36 AM
Hope this crude diagram is of help to those wishing to build their own gauge.
The measurements are in (mm) and are as precise as I can possibly make them.
The gauge is used to allign the stylus tip to a specific point on the gauge.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n201/evanged/IMG_2729.jpg


The gauge is the acrylic looking thing below with "Thorens" written on it.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n201/evanged/IMG_2714-1.jpg

Good luck & hope this helps.

Cheers.


Thank you for this. Long and very sorely needed by all of us!

REDone
02-23-2010, 11:39 AM
Am I right in saying that Cartridges had a VTA of 15 degree back then so this little widget is less likely to be accurate with newer carts?

Old_Tech
02-26-2010, 09:03 PM
I just can't see it. How is that thing mounted onto the TP60 to set the stylus position?

Blue Shadow
02-27-2010, 02:46 PM
With the Thorens word right side up the front of the headshell is slammed into the gauge and the needle is supposed to be positioned in the notch on the now top of the gauge.

Edit:
In this configuration, with the gauge right side up, the headshell will be upside down but the needle will be on top near the V-notch in the short part of the gauge allowing you to see it and make adjustments.

REDone
02-27-2010, 03:42 PM
With the Thorens word right side up the front of the headshell is slammed into the gauge and the needle is supposed to be positioned in the notch on the now top of the gauge.

No I think its the opposite - take a look at the manual & the longer arm of the gauge fits over the headshell ie The shell fits into the top left section of the diagrams.

I don't understand the bottom left drawing though - why is there a raking angle on it?

I've had part of a go in drawing this in cad but got flumoxed

edit image added

the_nines
03-21-2010, 10:53 AM
I don't understand the bottom left drawing though - why is there a raking angle on it?



The top view (original post, pic 1, lower left diagram) of the gauge is a trapezoid, a four-sided figure with one pair of parallel sides.

So when looked at front view (lower right diagram) the left side shows a bit. Remember....it's a trapezoid cube (for lack of a better term).

SIDE VIEW:

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n201/evanged/IMG_2852.jpg



TOP VIEW:

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n201/evanged/IMG_2853.jpg


FRONT VIEW:

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n201/evanged/IMG_2855.jpg



MORE PICS WITH HEADSHELL INSERTED:

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n201/evanged/IMG_2858.jpg

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n201/evanged/IMG_2869.jpg

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n201/evanged/IMG_2870.jpg

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n201/evanged/IMG_2860.jpg

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n201/evanged/IMG_2861.jpg

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n201/evanged/IMG_2862.jpg

REDone
03-21-2010, 11:31 AM
Thanks to Nines - I can now figure it out better

the_nines
03-21-2010, 12:21 PM
Got it... really simple (I think).

When you put the headshell flat on its back up against a wall with stylus pointing to the sky, the stylus is supposed to be at a height of 25mm and 10mm from the wall.

Make sense ??

REDone
03-21-2010, 01:46 PM
yup I'll redraft & post it

moinau
03-21-2010, 02:53 PM
Merci pour les informations, très apprécier.

enricosonic
03-21-2010, 04:17 PM
This thread reminded me... I've got an extra gauge. I'd be happy to send it to someone who can use it, free of charge. First come, first serve, I reckon.

http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh24/enricosonic/DSCN9008.jpg

moinau
03-21-2010, 04:22 PM
I'll will take you up on that if you don't mind, thanks.

enricosonic
03-21-2010, 04:28 PM
I'll will take you up on that if you don't mind, thanks.

It's yours. Just PM me your info and I'll box her up.

moinau
03-21-2010, 04:30 PM
Thanks enricosonic, much appreciated.

enricosonic
03-21-2010, 04:33 PM
My pleasure,I've been the recipient a few times lately on AK. Time to give!

the_nines
03-22-2010, 05:32 AM
My pleasure,I've been the recipient a few times lately on AK. Time to give!

That's a really cool gesture.

:thmbsp:

Old_Tech
03-22-2010, 06:53 AM
If only we knew the distance from the headshell front edge to the stylus tip a simple gage could easily be made. I just cannot get that dimension from the drawings.

Yes I agree, that gesture from ericosonic was the AK I remember.

Thank you Nines for a very helpful thread here on the Turntable forum.

guiller
03-22-2010, 06:56 AM
This is a great thread! Many thanks!!!

the_nines
03-22-2010, 09:03 AM
If only we knew the distance from the headshell front edge to the stylus tip a simple gage could easily be made. I just cannot get that dimension from the drawings.

Yes I agree, that gesture from ericosonic was the AK I remember.

Thank you Nines for a very helpful thread here on the Turntable forum.


But we do.....I mention it on the previous page:

Got it... really simple (I think).

When you put the headshell flat on its back up against a wall with stylus pointing to the sky, the stylus is supposed to be at a height of 25mm and 10mm from the wall.

Make sense ??

Old_Tech
03-22-2010, 11:05 AM
But we do.....I mention it on the previous page:

Sorry, I was unclear. The gage has its own thickness to consider. I meant if we knew the distance from the edge of the headshell itself to the stylus tip (without the gage in place after the alignment is complete).

A simple gage could then be made from like really thin styrene to that exact dimension. Or did I misread this altogether? The dimension of 10mm is from the headshell edge to the stylus tip without the gage in place?

REDone
03-22-2010, 11:44 AM
I tend to agree with old tech - allowing 2.5mm for front plastic thickness
the dimensions should read 7.5mm for setback from front of headshell and 24-25mm from top of headshell to stylus tip
note the thorens diagram does not show the stylus in the dimple in the base but only in elevation where it aligns with the side wall recess.

Edit apologies revised pdf drawing here 7.5 & 24mm

Old_Tech
03-22-2010, 12:19 PM
Thanks ReDone. I will check what I have at home. I wonder how close I am having used the Thorens protractor from VE? Using this jig and dimensions do we mount the cartridge square in the headshell as with similar gages?

So it's 7.5mm stylus tip to headshell edge -to confirm?

Thank you,

REDone
03-22-2010, 01:10 PM
yes square but I havent checked the front elevation dims yet

7.5 depends on the front wall plastic thickness 2.5mm allowed its a "smidge over 2mm" & looks thicker than the side wall & top thickness.

the_nines
03-22-2010, 03:22 PM
The gauge you construct may be as thick as you want it to be.

The measurements I gave (25mm & 10mm) have been taken from inside the gauge shell, not the outside.

As long as your stylus is 25mm from the floor & 10mm from the wall it's up against.

REDone
03-22-2010, 04:00 PM
How can those dims work Mr Nines? the headshell is set back 3mm from the inside face of the front plastic which has a thickness of 2.5mm? - which gives 7.5mm

your photos show the setback

This taken from your first sketch dimensions

my head is stating to hurt ;)

the_nines
03-22-2010, 05:53 PM
What I'm saying is the setback is only there to hold the headshell in place (so it doesn't fall down when supporting it). If you turn the headshell upside down (stylus pointing to the sky) there is no need for these setbacks.

Forget the gauge for one moment.....

Put a bookend on a table. This creates a 90 degree angle between bookshelf and table. For the sake of this explanation consider the table as your "floor" and the bookend as your "wall".

Turn the headshell upside down (with cart in place and pointing to the sky) and lay on the table.

Slide the headshell toward the bookend until they meet flush.

The distance from the floor to the stylus should be 25mm.

The distance from the bookend to the stylus should be 10mm.

Elementary.......no??

REDone
03-22-2010, 06:25 PM
No sorry I can't agree as the set back behind the front is shown in the photos & your diagram

2.5 +3 +3 =8.5mm

16-8.5 = 7.5mm distance from front of headshell to stylus

the_nines
03-22-2010, 07:28 PM
The stylus is supposed to rest within the triangle, not at the tip of the triangle.

Old_Tech
03-22-2010, 07:45 PM
ReDone,
I just measured my AT440mla stylus it is 5mm from the edge of the headshell. It's not square as I made the cantilever parallel with the VE protractor.
Not sure what to try. 2.5mm is a long ways off if that gauge is 7.5mm. This is a great thread we are learning alot. I am not sure why I am at 5mm though. Very hard to measure.

REDone
03-22-2010, 07:49 PM
Thats not what the thorens manual image shows Mr Nines

We are making heavy weather of something simple here & that's not my intention

I'm working to the thorens diagram for the moment (with your dimensions) & I'd really like to get it right

Where is the dimple - how deep from back face?

my gut feeling instinct in setting the stylus 10mm back from front of headshell is too much. (I could be wrong.) The dimension depth from the back of the base to the rear face of the front plastic is what exactly? then we have the depth of the dimple triangle & the top offset & the cutout notches on the sides - these were all there for a purpose

thanks for sticking with it

REDone
03-22-2010, 08:01 PM
ReDone,
I just measured my AT440mla stylus it is 5mm from the edge of the headshell. It's not square as I made the cantilever parallel with the VE protractor.
Not sure what to try. 2.5mm is a long ways off if that gauge is 7.5mm. This is a great thread we are learning alot. I am not sure why I am at 5mm though. Very hard to measure.

The gauge is simply thorens own protractor - it would have been useful if they supplied some dimensions to go with it.

the VE protractor I think was drafted by SEB to his set of calculations

Seb's protractor should be superior performance to the Thorens but does not mount parallel in the headshell.

My 75ED is set back 4- 5mm

Edit the recommended arc is 230mm effective length so the gauge could be checked against that

Old_Tech
03-22-2010, 08:20 PM
Don't get frustrated guys this is some very good analysis here. The diagrams and interpretations have been very good. I am a Tech Writer I can vouch for that.

I think my 5mm is very close I worked hard with the VE protractor but if I am missing something please feel free to say.
Thank you-man I would love to get this right.

Also, I believe it's true the V notch is an approximate landing zone. What tolerance does that give us?

REDone
03-22-2010, 08:34 PM
Well I could just produce the 230mm arc as a pdf protractor to get the original thorens spec.

if the cart is set central & parallel to the RHS of the headshell that should be it

the_nines
03-22-2010, 09:16 PM
Also, I believe it's true the V notch is an approximate landing zone. What tolerance does that give us?

It is a landing zone. The stylus is not supposed to be on the tip of the triangle. The Thorens diagram is not really detailed. As long as the stylus is in that triangle you should be good to go. It gives us almost 2mm tolerance.

the_nines
03-22-2010, 09:31 PM
Thats not what the thorens manual image shows Mr Nines

Can't really tell very much detail from that diagram.

We are making heavy weather of something simple here & that's not my intention

I agree.

I'm working to the thorens diagram for the moment (with your dimensions) & I'd really like to get it right

I understand and agree.

Where is the dimple - how deep from back face?

The tip of the triangle is 11mm from the inner wall, with 2mm worth within the dimple itself.

So, 11-3=8 ..... 8+2=10mm


.....then we have the depth of the dimple triangle & the top offset & the cutout notches on the sides - these were all there for a purpose

The depth of the dimple triangle is 2mm. The cutout notches on the sides are there to enable a good view from the side to show the position of the stylus/cantilever.

thanks for sticking with it

No probs.

REDone
03-23-2010, 04:03 AM
Good morning & thanks - I'll be taking a look later

Here is a link to JAs's tonearm comparator
http://www.vinylengine.com/tonearm_alignment_comparator.php

Also here is a print out of the original Thorens set up at 230mm I did a while back - you can see it is not the best performance according to the calculator


the difference between them is not more than 3mm (with added twist)

measuring backward / forward off a 230 protractor line set up & then inputting the data into the comparator will show the set up performance of your particular alignment

I took the Thorens diagram side notches / stylus position to show the amount of spacers to use in the headshell (at 24mm from top of headshell)- your photo would mean you have too many (by 1mm)

the_nines
03-23-2010, 05:32 AM
Good morning Mr. REDone. Just having a solid espresso (or two) and thinking out loud here.

I truly appreciate the extent to which you have gone in all of this. I never thought this thread would take-off like it did.

Never claimed that it was the best. I just thought these dimensions would be useful to members who would be interested.

My measurements were taken with a simple "school" ruler showing millimeters (and not fractions thereof). Are they dead accurate? Most probably not.

The way I see it is that if the dimensions were supposed to be dead accurate to a fraction of a millimeter, Thorens would not allow for a 1-2mm comfort zone within the dimple itself. Again, the way I see this is the gauge was intended to be "end-user" friendly by allowing the normal "Joe" to come within 1-2mm of correctness and not do severe damage to the record itself, or hear an audible difference in terms of distortion. Were there other ways to do this? I'm sure there were.

Take my diagrams and dimensions for what they're worth. To some they are quite a big help, while to others they are useless.

Could I have tweaked another 1mm? Probably yes. But if my records sound just fine and I am doing no damage to them why bother that extra step. If it sounds good that's where I stop.

I've been aligning like this since when I bought my Thorens (in 1975). My records have suffered no ill-effects.

Gotta get another espresso.

:)

Old_Tech
03-23-2010, 06:24 AM
Guys,

What are your thoughts on my measurement of ~5-6mm? I used the VE Thorens protractor and as I said the cartridge is turned very slightly making the cantilever parallel to the gooves at the inner null point.

Last night I measured several times and I see between 5-6mm from the tip of the stylus on my 440mla and the front edge of the headshell.

Seems close and sounds pretty good too. But if I need to be at 10mm to satisfy the gauge dimensions then I am off.

***Unless I have adjusted with a protractor that satisfies the geometry of the arm to another standard.*** :scratch2:

REDone
03-23-2010, 07:17 AM
Ron
the 230 dim is the original effective length - other protractors move the stylus forward & twist it off centre.
my view is a 10mm set back is too large & would be behind the 230mm arc but I agree with Nines that if it sounds good then accept it.

My 160 was my Dad's set up with the gauge & it sounded good in the 70's - but when I got hold of it & changed the cart the setting was lost & pure guesswork (no internet guidance then). Now we are better armed - we can set up to the original setting or tweak it to other settings.

My set up is extremely close to yours although its not true Baerwald (I couldn't stretch to it) & currently its the best sound I've had from the TD160.

the_nines
03-23-2010, 07:59 AM
Guys,

What are your thoughts on my measurement of ~5-6mm? I used the VE Thorens protractor and as I said the cartridge is turned very slightly making the cantilever parallel to the gooves at the inner null point.

Last night I measured several times and I see between 5-6mm from the tip of the stylus on my 440mla and the front edge of the headshell.

Seems close and sounds pretty good too. But if I need to be at 10mm to satisfy the gauge dimensions then I am off.

***Unless I have adjusted with a protractor that satisfies the geometry of the arm to another standard.*** :scratch2:



As far as I know when using the Thorens gauge, your stylus is supposed to be within that dimple area. If I understand correctly, in your present setup your stylus is past the dimple and half way towards the front end of your headshell, yes?

"and as I said the cartridge is turned very slightly" ...You could rotate your cart on the TP16 MK1 headshell?

REDone
03-23-2010, 08:47 AM
Nines - Ron has used the baerwald protractor nearly 2.5mm longer than the 230 arc

if I draw up a 230 arc protractor would you check that against your gauge setting? that should show where to set the stylus in the dimple of the gauge

the_nines
03-23-2010, 09:15 AM
Nines - Ron has used the baerwald protractor nearly 2.5mm longer than the 230 arc

if I draw up a 230 arc protractor would you check that against your gauge setting? that should show where to set the stylus in the dimple of the gauge


Sure.

REDone
03-23-2010, 09:27 AM
Thanks - Here is the 230 Thorens arc protractor - original effective length

Edit I've swapped pdf cos I forgot to show the spindle

Old_Tech
03-23-2010, 11:17 AM
As far as I know when using the Thorens gauge, your stylus is supposed to be within that dimple area. If I understand correctly, in your present setup your stylus is past the dimple and half way towards the front end of your headshell, yes?

"and as I said the cartridge is turned very slightly" ...You could rotate your cart on the TP16 MK1 headshell?

Yes, the cartridge can be turned to parallel the cantilever there is room in the mounting slots of the cartridge to turn it slightly. Yes the stylus is 5-6mm from the edge of the headshell.

I used a protractor and its geometry to set the overhang. The Thorens one on VE. There were no other tools available to us so that is what the Thorens guys here at AK were doing.

the_nines
03-24-2010, 04:42 AM
Thanks for the protractor.

My stylus was 1mm in back of the arc and it followed the arc troughout its entire swing.

REDone
03-24-2010, 05:11 AM
Thanks Nines

Here is the result using the comparator from VE - note it is worse than the 230 arc but

If you play with the offset angle you will get different results & possibly improvement

Old_Tech
03-24-2010, 06:17 AM
It might be early yet guys but I am lost here. I'll try to figure out what you are showing here.
Thanks for all the support.

REDone
03-24-2010, 07:05 AM
Ron
The tables & graph are from the Tonearm comparator on Vinyl Engine
http://www.vinylengine.com/tonearm_alignment_comparator.php

Input the data for your alignment & compare to Baerwald / Stevenson/ Loefgren

play with tweaking the data and you will get different results - this is what I used to produce my own TD160 protractor when I found I couldn't use the Baerwald.

The graph above shows the difference between Nines Gauge method & Baerwald performance so a difference of 1mm setback from the original thorens effective length of 230mm standard arc gives a much poorer performance & more distortion. By playing with the offset angle you could improve on this.

REDone
03-24-2010, 07:22 AM
Here is a graph comparison

the_nines
03-24-2010, 09:38 AM
..
snip..

By playing with the offset angle you could improve on this.

Isn't the offset angle permanently built into the tonearm's design and therefore non-adjustable?

REDone
03-24-2010, 09:52 AM
twist the cart & you can alter the setting - this is the problem some people get with VE protractor in that the twist is too much & the slide forward is too little

Some can do it & others can't - I get partial success, but can't use the baerwald setting so devised my own

Old_Tech
03-24-2010, 11:10 AM
Isn't the offset angle permanently built into the tonearm's design and therefore non-adjustable?

Yes it is and if you have the alignment gauge to set the overhang you are all set. Simply set the overhang and square the cartridge. Done.

But, there are so few gauges (if any) that people have to use a protractor as best they can to align to some geometry not knowing the overhang or even in some cases not knowing what geometry the arm was designed to. The Thorens is rumored to have been Baerwald. Others from Japan have been rumored as Stevenson. I used the recommended Thorens protractor from VE and I am way off apparantly from the gauge overhang setting.

If the stylus on the TP-16 headshell is to be 10mm from the front edge of the headshell that's all the gauge we need. I am at 5mm.
I wish I knew what protractor I am supposed to use given such a huge discrepancy.

REDone
03-24-2010, 12:02 PM
Ron The original setting for the Thorens was not baerwald it was their own.

The VE Thorens protractor was aftermarket designed to Baerwald by SEB

You can use a variety of settings of setback within the headshell (altering the effective length) but each will then have its own unique offset angle to get optimum performance. The Baerwald is the better protractor if you can (a) get the effective length & (b) twist the cart in the headshell to align to the offset angle

Old_Tech
03-26-2010, 09:33 PM
Ron The original setting for the Thorens was not baerwald it was their own.

The VE Thorens protractor was aftermarket designed to Baerwald by SEB

You can use a variety of settings of setback within the headshell (altering the effective length) but each will then have its own unique offset angle to get optimum performance. The Baerwald is the better protractor if you can (a) get the effective length & (b) twist the cart in the headshell to align to the offset angle

I guess I will leave well enough alone as it sounds pretty good to me and after some enduring patience in the setup I might add. The Thorens protractor gives the 5mm dimension for me and possibly the angle I have set has really made the difference. I tend to think the cartridge makes a big difference here as well. I could be wrong I have been in the past enough to know that. I am starting to believe my ears more than anything these days. One fella said here on the forum "If you have synergy don't ignore it". That said, this is a difficult table to set up at best and if its sounding good things are playing into your favor somehow.

My Marantz 6100 alignment gauge instructions read to get that stylus positioned anywhere over the crosshair on the 45 adaptor. That's at least a 3mm distance. If it has to be so close to be optimum on a Thorens we got problems. None the less, this has been a great thread well conducted and produced by all. Maybe it will grow.
Thank You Nines and Roger :thmbsp:

bhundu
03-26-2010, 11:40 PM
One of the great things about Thorens tables is their owners. I find all Thorens related threads are conducted with genuine helpful advice and opinions are respected.

Cheers to the Thorens crew:thmbsp:

moinau
04-08-2010, 06:56 PM
This thread reminded me... I've got an extra gauge. I'd be happy to send it to someone who can use it, free of charge. First come, first serve, I reckon.

http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh24/enricosonic/DSCN9008.jpg

It's yours. Just PM me your info and I'll box her up.

Thanks enricosonic, much appreciated.

Today I've received in the mail the Thorens TP60 plastic gauge from "enricosonic" that he so graciously given away to a lucky AK member, me.
Thank you very much "enricosonic" much appreciated.
André
Picture included.

bhundu
04-08-2010, 09:07 PM
Great to see it go to a good home!

Buzzbomb
12-03-2010, 11:02 PM
Reviving subject.

I'm not much on geometry and am somewhat confused by the suggestions/results. I have a TD165 C which I guess is known as MKII at Vinyl Engine....not sure about that. Never was sure what the difference was between 165 and C. Mine has a hinged at back dustcover. I had a headshell gauge but am not sure I have it any longer. I've moved and stored this table a zillion times over the last 30 years and I'm not sure where the gauge is. Was this post saying that the gauge was wrong anyway? If so, why are the protractors discussed also wrong? Not sure I understand all that but want to when I get around to getting this table up and running. Been also looking for a TD125 MKII so I would still need to understand all this. My 165 has the light mass arm TP11 (V III?) and the TP63 headshell and I have an Ortofon VMS-20E MKII mounted on it. I would have used the original gauge for set up. Always sounded OK to me but had to track so light that any walking on the floor was a big problem. Anyway, this cartridge would not work out on the 125 MKII because that is the heavy mass arm. Right?

Just want to understand where to go with this protractor business. At a certain point Thorens had a knack for switching up arms and headshells and the manuals aren't much help to straighten it all out.:no:

Balifly
12-03-2010, 11:17 PM
If your cartridge had been setup correctly using the gauge, take a measurement.

Get a caliper and measure the distance between the tip of the stylus and the gasket at the back of the headshell.:music:


http://www.amazon.com/Inch-Digital-Caliper-Extra-Battery/dp/B0002JFMIO/ref=sr_1_2?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1291439985&sr=1-2

pjsjr
12-04-2010, 07:41 AM
Reviving subject.

I'm not much on geometry and am somewhat confused by the suggestions/results.
Just want to understand where to go with this protractor business.

Buzz, in this thread post #50 there is a link to a Thorens arc protractor...I just used it to set up my TD 166 MK II. I have the junky TP 62 headshell:thumbsdn:. Dave B's Take Five is playing now and sounds good...

Set your printer to No Scale and then measure the 140mm length on the sheet after its printed out to check the scale. HTH, Preston

Buzzbomb
12-04-2010, 09:10 AM
OK. Yes the TP62 looks cool but in practice also looks like a nightmare. That slides back and forth on the armtube? How does it lock down?

I just wasn't sure about the protractors because lots of people in this thread seemed to indicate that neither worked for them. I don't recall which arm/shell they were working with (long thread). I suppose the cartridge makes a difference too.

I would have used the gauge to set up the Ortofon. I probably did it correctly because I was able to see back then. These days the eyes aren't what they used to be :no:. I'll check into the caliper thing.....thanks for the link Balifly.

I think I had an Otofon F something series on the 165 before the VMS. That sounded OK too. Still have it .....somewhere.

pjsjr
12-04-2010, 04:03 PM
That slides back and forth on the armtube? How does it lock down?

Yes, it slides back and forth and twists side to side. I'm not sure it does lock down...I tried to tighten the screws some but didn't use much force.

Wish I didn't understand about the eyes going bad. Preston

smengy1
10-02-2011, 05:07 PM
I think you are all getting excited over nothing. The only important part is the height of the stylus measurement. With all the shims and thicknesses of different cartridges, that variable is the most important and hardest one to figure out without that measurement.
As for how far forward or backward. Well just download the protractors at
vinyl engine. Use the comparator, and it will tell you all the different mounting lengths.

Then use this!!! The best!! And FREE!!!!

http://www.conradhoffman.com/chsw.htm

Enter the info, and printout the alignment charts.

Align your head to Stevenson printout. Now just subtract the Stevenson from the "stock" measurement(found in vinyl engine comparison calculator, mark it on the protractor printout, and align to there.

It's the height of the stylus that is impossible to figure out from the crummy diagram with no measurement written in in the manual. Not the alignment, that's easy!!! Just use the printouts!!!

drillher
10-03-2011, 09:39 AM
I used a two point protractor to mount my cartridge on my TD-145.Can you tell me how far rhe tip of the stylus is from the front edge of the head shell after you mounted your cartridge with the gauge?Thanks,
Dave

crossram
10-05-2011, 06:08 PM
This is a great thread. You guys are a lifesaver.

I have a similar quandry with a new (to me) TD-147 with the TP16 Mk III arm and TP 63 wand/headshell. I plan to try a Stanton 681EEE-S cartridge on it first and then perhaps a NOS ADC XLM MkII Improved.

Of course, the table came without the clear plastic setup jig and I have no idea how to determine the spacing from the headshell to stylus tip nor the overhang.

Does anyone know if the TP16 MkIII with the TP63 wand/headshell uses the same jig or, more importantly the same dimensions as the TP160? If not, do you know what these dimensions are?

Thanks everyone.

Dave

bhundu
10-05-2011, 08:53 PM
This is a great thread. You guys are a lifesaver.

I have a similar quandry with a new (to me) TD-147 with the TP16 Mk III arm and TP 63 wand/headshell. I plan to try a Stanton 681EEE-S cartridge on it first and then perhaps a NOS ADC XLM MkII Improved.

Of course, the table came without the clear plastic setup jig and I have no idea how to determine the spacing from the headshell to stylus tip nor the overhang.

Does anyone know if the TP16 MkIII with the TP63 wand/headshell uses the same jig or, more importantly the same dimensions as the TP160? If not, do you know what these dimensions are?

Thanks everyone.

Dave

I'm sure a similar jig would have been supplied, but due to the different shape in headshell, it would have been a different jig. I'd suggest using a protractor from vinylengine (need to register first-free), print it out to scale and go from there. You have a number of protractors to use. Any is fine as long as you have enough distance in your headshell to make them work. Perhaps start up your own thread specific on your model.

Welcome to AK BTW. (Edit: See you've been a member here longer than I have) Good luck!

crossram
10-06-2011, 06:31 PM
Thanks bhundu. I understand about using a protractor to set overhang and cartridge alignment, but I don't get how it would help with the stylus height adjustment.

I am assuming that the purpose of setting the stylus height is to set the VTA? If so, I guess that, short of having the Thorens plastic gauge to get it right the first time with the wand off, I can just figure it out by viewing the front-to-back level of the tonearm as one would do with any tonearm when adjusting VTA? If so, should it be absolutely level or slightly tilted up in the back?

This will be a PITA as each adjustment will require removing the arm wand, disassembling the cartridge/spacer stack, changing spacers, re-assembling the stack, inserting the wand, and trying it again to see if the tonearm level is correct?

Thanks,
Dave

bhundu
10-06-2011, 07:42 PM
Yes, you basically want the tonearm to be level. Some fool around a mm or so "tail-up or "tail-down" and test by ear. This is easier with some TTs that can adjust VTA on the fly. Not so much the Thorens.

The best method to get VTA correct is to place the stylus on a non-revolving record near the outer edge and sight the TA from the side. If you place a ruled card or piece of ruled writing paper on the record you will have horizontal lines that will help to see if the TA is level or not.

Although I'm not familiar with your model, you should be able to adjust the height of the TA at the pivot point. Most Thorens will have two screws that when loosened will allow the TA to be raised or lowered at the pivot point. If you have this facility, you would start by roughly getting VTA right using the spacers, and then fine tune with the TA base height. The following link may help in parts, especially the use of playing cards. All thanks to Divotdog!

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=244002

The original alignment jig didn't help set VTA. It was for alignment and overhang only.

Hope this helps.

Edit: Check the arm cue rest height if the VTA has been changed. You may have to adjust this afterwoods to make sure that a) the arm isn't dropping from a great height and b) it will raise the arm enough to clear the surface of the record.