Ok I don't know much about buying cars from dealers, my jeep is the 1st one I ever did. Now after paying on it for 2 1/2 years the car dealer wants me to trade it in and get a new, nicer, more expensive car.

Some background, I have a 96' Jeep Cherokee 117,000 miles cars looks and runs great. I only have 1 year left to pay on the loan.

Downside, it's a plain Jeep Cherokee, no power anything, no cruise control, and the 117,000 miles (had 100,000 when I got it)

Now I looked online and the blue book value is $5675 my payoff on the loan is $4900. I told them I want full book value since the Jeep is mint and they agreed it is mint and that I would get full value for it. So pays off my loan and some goes to new car + no downpayment.

Now the part I don't understand is that I test drove a 1999 Jeep Grand Cherokee, 34,000 miles, all the bells and whistles, it was wonderful, like driving a 4WD limo. The salesman said price was around $16000 or so. My question is where do they get their prices? I looked up the book value of it online tonight and the book value for the same model/year/mileage was in the $10,500 region where are they getting $16k?

Ends up the loan company won't finance a 60 month loan for me on a car older than 2000, so I am going Monday to look at a 2002 Ford Explorer XLS 4WD with 42,681 miles and they said it was around the same price as the Grand Cherokee, $16000. When I looked online book value was around $11k.

So how does this all work?

My thoughts are to only get a new car if it's a really big upgrade from my current one. I have never EVER in my life owned a car with less than 100K miles on it. The Grand Cherokee was attractive to me because of the power everything, leather interior, moonroof etc. and the 34,000 miles (at the rate I put miles on in 5 years at the end of the loan the car would have 70,000 or so on it)

I have seen pics of the Explorer tonite on the dealers website and I am not impressed, like going to a version of my current car with 1/2 the miles, has a few bells but not many. I won't even test drive it Monday and will ask them to find me something else to try.

If I get a new car in the $16000 range my current car payments will go up $100 to $150 more dollars a month for the next 5 yrs. I am OK with that if I get something worth it. (Also would help build my credit for that someday house purchase ;) )

So what do I do? How does this work? How much can I counter offer against what they "say" is the price? This is a big step for me and I don't want to do something I'll regret a year or even 4 years from now. Help?

Where are you getting the book values from? I usually use Kelley Blue Book's site, and they have three sets of values: retail, trade-in, and private party sales -- Foe

Of course they agreed to full BB. Then they stick you on the cost.

Dealers look at the bottom line. They want to make a certain profit on a deal, whether its as a % or as a dollar figure. If they give you top dollar on the trade, they won't usually budge much on price. If you accept getting stuck on the trade, then they amy "go below cost, just for you" on the deal

Best thing is to know the average prices of what you are looking for.

BTW I'm not one to push foreign, but the Suzuki XL7 is about of a size with the Cherokee. I've seen new going for 16K. Suzuki is probably one of the most under rated makers in America, but guess who the #1 seller of cars in Japan is? I'll give you a hint. It's not Toyota, the biggest car mfg in the islands, nor is it honda/accord/lexus, the darlings of many Americans. :naughty:

Hi Thor,

Just bought a "new" used car for my wife. It's by no means the first used car I've ever bought. I'm 56, and I've gone through a lot.

We went to Carmax, and I can honestly say I've never had a better experience in my life. I think I've seen the future of used car buying in the US. Every time I bought a car at a new car dealer's lot, or a used car lot, it was painful. I'm convinced they'll try to screw you every chance they get.

Carmax is no-haggle pricing, and they have the current (December 2004) Kelley Blue Book retail price right on the sticker, and their price, which is usually $1,000-$2,000 lower, at least. Sales people are friendly and helpful, since they're not trying to get you to pay the most they can get. I took a look, and apparently the closest locations to you are in the Baltimore/DC area. Probably too long a drive for you, but if it saves you a couple grand...

Btw, they offer a 5-day, no questions asked, unlimited mileage bring-it-back if you change your mind guarantee. And, a 30-day repair warantee.

http://www.carmax.com/dyn/searchengine/searchresults.asp#CarMax

I would suggest you give some real consideration to the Explorer. This is our second. We've been absolutely happy with them. No problems at all. My wife just loves her "truck"! They have much better reliability than a Jeep. Plus, they're the most popular SUV by far, so you will find a much larger used selection to choose from.

There are two "book values", the wholesale and retail book. Wholesale is what the dealer will give on a trade-in. Retail is what it sells for on the lot. $11K for an '02 Explorer is definitely wholesale. You can't buy one for that. $16K is a fair price.

Good luck, and keep us posted!
Clay

for another year, then it'll be paid for. It's not going to depreciate much especially if you don't put many more miles on it.

Is it worth the 150/month to get some options?

A year from now, you can then sell your jeep for 5K and put all of it towards a new one, financed for 60 ( or my bank would do 72 months on new) your paymnets won't be too high.

Or keep what you have for another 2 years and in the 2nd year, you have no payments of any kind....spend it on more amps and speakers :yes:

Thor, from my experience over the summer with buying my first truck i would have to say only, Dont deal with a dealer. If you sell it on your own your will likely get more for it than any trade in. And if you buy one used from a private party you will likely get something much better, cheaper.


As an example i was looking for a Toyota Tundra, New was definetly not an option because mucho expensive. I had been watching the papers but there wasnt much. I had looked a used car dealerships and when we went to a certain place they had one for 21k. Ok now im thinking its something really nice. but still pretty out of my range. They did not have it on the lot at the time so we said we would come back later.

Well..... In that time there was one in the classifieds, for 16k, we looked at it and it was indeed nice but i wasnt sold being it was the only one we had really looked at. So just for fun we went and looked at the one the dealer had. Ok it had no bells and whistles, missing parts, and looking underneath its obvios the undercarriage had been recently painted (still tacky) i was completly unimpressed. And to think how much they wanted for it!

In the end I bought the one from a private party, and was able to talk him down to 15 grand. I know that i got a pretty good deal on the truck and its got soo much more than the one the used rip off place had. Sometimes i just dont understand why people trade in because you never get as much money for it. When my mom sold her old car the dealer said a trade in would be like 1200 bucks or something. Well she sold it for 4500 or so privately. Go figure.

www.nada.com

we use it at work to value vehicles.

Thor, the best car I ever owned, until recently, was a 1968 Chevrolet Chevelle Deluxe sedan, 230 cid inline six, auto, no power. I foolishly traded for a station wagon from hell and it did the best acting job until I got on the freeway. I had that Chevy completely repaired although it had plenty of cosmetic issues, and I had some bitchin' simple rims. You couldn't whip that puppy. Lord, do I miss it, and at 173,000 blissful miles it cruised into a couple of kids' hands shortly after the dealer trade (he had a psychic moment I'm sure).

You've got an OUTSTANDING vehicle, as evidenced by the fact that Uncle Sam and the states bought these things by the bucketloads. They were still selling them right up to replacement. I hear they work great and they are tough. I'd bet they get relatively decent mileage for an SUV also, am I close? I'm not sure why there's a problem? Does the SO desire something with more accoutrements, or do you just want a new car?

Purchasing things on credit is so arcane and misguided as to border on mythological (you understand that concept I guess). I think what you are pondering over is: "Do I trade it now with outstanding debt or next year when it's paid but it's depreciated and at the mercy of niche auto marketers because big lots won't touch it"? I mean the places that hawk self-financing with terminally ill nosebleed installments for "no credit" folks. The new car dealers I know of RARELY TOUCH pre-2000 vehicles anymore unless they are HIGH-DOLLAR returners or high turnaround sales to other (used) dealers. Some dealers won't touch certain bodies (GM A, N, pre-90 or even pre-95 Chrysler minivans) because they are too plentiful and are not worth much--usually sub-1000 like the minivans. Nothing is holding a good value beyond 1996 anyway, at least not in this market.

I don't recall if you mention which engine you had? I suspect it was the 2.5 liter four cylinder which sounds like it was a good unit. There were a 3.0 and 4.0 also, am I correct? Have you taken it in for testing lately? How does it stack up after 4+ years? If it's in fine shape, I'd say keep it the extra year and decide on a yearly basis.

Having had to consolidate car loans when one failed before, I will bluntly state to you that I don't like it a bit. The other car doesn't "disappear"--it will factor into the new car loan regardless and it's like putting too many riders on a horse--someday the horse will throw you. That people LIVE this way with credit scares me, especially when they are older, don't have the income to do this, and should rethink how they deal with money. My parents had to downsize when Dad lost his job after his hands gave out as a mechanic for 38 years, and at 58 for Mom and 61 for Dad I cringe when they tell me they are sick and the bills will be tight. They only went down about 15-20K when they bought another new, much smaller house and where do they go from here?

Think about it, Thor. Do you get the fancy car to stimulate an economy, or serve you? Do you spend 31,000 on a 16,000 car due to interest, or do you save a good car and work on saving REAL capital to lessen the burden of real estate (and then NEW or EXISTING/FIX-UP)? You have a sports car also and you're putting good money into that. Will you end up abandoning that when you have woes?

I went bankrupt in 1995, and I'm aware even today that you can't juggle debts and responsibilities without dropping the ball. Cars are trivial in the concerns of a mortgage broker--of your kind especially. The only thing they will care about is were you delinquent, not so muchas to how you paid on the loan(s) or how you can juggle loans. They look at what you have every month and (in FHA's case especially) they want to know if you can pay for EVERYTHING they require/think you should have or do and tell you NO if you can't meet a basic agenda for them. There's no magic about it...

You can't get CREDIT without MONEY. And some circles don't buy anything on credit, only when they raise the funds (the LDS church adheres to that principal, yes, religiously, and doesn't buy a church car, build a temple, anything until the church members come up with enough dough). I wish that I had the where-with-all to run that way...I don't.

There is nothing wrong with a 100K vehicle if it is a sound vehicle and the driver is a sound caretaker. The only limiting factor is usually maker support. Wise planning is required for the serious things AND the pleasureful ones equally. I would pay the loan before thinking about depreciation, and as we all say about eBay, "Another one will come along"!

Best of luck to you, Thor.

Steven

I'm a personal lender so it's my job to lend people money to buy cars and homes and "toys". Personal debt is at an all time high and eventually it's going to catch up to alot of people and bite them in the ass.

As far as the mileage on your current vehicle....one of my best cars..I bought when it had 160000miles on it....and it was still running well when I sold it with 320000 miles on it. Good old 3.8litre GM V6.

If you want to finance a car,IMHO its always better to get the financing elsewhere,a bank,credit union,or,like my wife and I did for our first new car,we did online financing,which was many percentage points better for us than any dealer offered us,since we were just rebuilding our credit then.The dealers absolutely hate it when you come in with a blank check from a finance company.Financing is where they make their money,and you have much more leverage if you can make your own deal based on what YOU have in hand.That way,they cant stick you with a car you dont want because "its the only one we can finance you for".If they cant give you what you want,you take your check,and your butt down the street to another dealer that will give you what you want.Its a great feeling to have a little power on your side.And people here are right,youll do much better to wait till the car is paid off next year,and sell it private party,maybe even use autotrader.com or ebay.A nice jeep like that will sell in no time I bet.
My 25 cents worth of free advice.
Jimmy

Dude.....YOU HAVE A GREAT CAR.....now go and make it better...

Don't fall into the great lie of perpetual debt. Pay the freaking thing off and drive it into the ground Like any real American used to do back in the day.

The Plain Jane thing has got you down? Pu t a new stereo in it. I can GUARANTEE you that spending 1000 bucks will fell one heck of a lot better than dropping 20K on a new POS.

RELAX, and smell the money. The money you will keep for yourself!

As somone who went from Po' to not Po' I can tell you what you need to do... SAVE SAVE SAVE....

Thor:

Go to www.edmunds.com and use its resources. One of the most comprehensive and down-to-earth car sites on the web about buying, selling, financing, researching, etc. any car.

I've bought and sold about 40 cars: all but two used, and mostly from individuals. The two I bought new at dealers I did days of research, had my credit union pre-qualify me for a car loan, and knew the price to pay. I went in declaring let's do this deal today with no BS. Sure. Took walking out three times to get one Ford dealer to meet it, and then they still tried to jiggle the numbers on the final contract.

Completely different experience at a Honda dealership. Took about three hours from walking on the lot until drive off. Carmax gets rave reviews in our area of NC (Charlotte), too.

The cheapest car to own is one without a payment. So, the advice to pay off your current one and then use its equity toward another car, or keep it and add goodies as you can is sound.

I have been "car poor" (when the payment was almost like a small house payment -- it was a bitchin' BMW, though), and it can really cause a lot of stress on you and your family -- and I'm considered a "car guy" and work in the performance aftermarket -- so I can come up with better than average rationale to myself and spouse for any particular vehicle.

Here's a little task I do before I plan to take on a car payment. Get out a sheet of notebook paper and write down each individual monthly car payment in columns for each year of the loan. When you see, say, $300 or $400 written out 60--72 times, then you start to understand just how much that car is sucking up any audio money, living expenses, etc. for a long time. I can usually get past the first two columns, but start to balk at column three, and lock-up at number four. A 5-year loan would have to be on something red, Italian, and starting with the letter F.

Good luck.

Oh Lord not a

:yikes: Should have made that more clear "starting with Fer..." That was a scary photo.

I've worked on friends' Fiats, and owned three Alfa Romeos. Lots of auto technology for the money, but you cannot be slack at all about maintenance, or they make a British car seem a pillar of dependability.

Fiat owned Ferrari.

They also make restroom stalls and I think floor drains or it looks like them.

Ain't it a mad world?

The first mistake you made was telling them at the outset that you had a trade in......always grind them on price first and only THEN tell them you have a old heap to trade in. When they low ball you on it's value (usually something REALLY insulting like $500) act very insulted and get up to leave. Watch them fall all over themselves trying to save the deal. It's quite funny.

Anthony

Push! Pull! Drag It In!

We'll make sure you MAKE A MINT in savings when you come over to

Harry Wiltner's One-Stop Jamboree the PARK PALACE AUTOMALL!!!!

Just head on down to exit 17 on the freeway and listen for the sound of slobberin' jowls!

HOOOOOOWEEEEEE!

Thor, we bought a 93 Cherokee with bad motor and transmission for $ 1000 back in Jan. 2002. Straight 6 engine, automatic transmission, power steering and electric windows.
It had 121.787 miles when I pulled the motor and trannie out.
The previous owners daughter didn't know or didn't care about checking the oil...so the engine had a bad knock and rear seal on the transmission was leaking so she drove with no oil at all...
Found a 94 engine with 113.000 miles and a good transmission for $ 700.00 delivery to my door + 30 days warranty. :thmbsp:
After 3 days it was back running again.

Linda been driving this Jeep since 2002 with no major problems, it has 180.000 miles now. :yes:
I suggest keep what you have, pay it off and spend the money on good Sea Dog beer instead. :naughty:

Thor, I bought my brand new 04 Aztek for 16K. . . List was 26,000. . . Some hate it but I like it. I needed the utility it offers and at 28-30mpg with good power from a 3.4 V-6 I jumped on it.

Ugliest car in the world from the outside but inside looking out it is just fine. . . I hate buying new cars as it takes too long, is way too stressful and usually depreciation kills you. But they are necessary evils. . .

Sometimes I think it is best to get your jar of vasoline and go on down to your dealer, get it over with and drive it till you figure you got your moneys worth. . .

It is too easy to sit back and tell you what we would or would not do but the fact is car buying is a personal matter and the only advice I can give is do your best to get your deal then if you are happy jump on it and move on to the more normal things untill the need arises again. . .

If you don't NEED the new vehicle Chris, let it slide. If you've got reliable transport, even though it is spartan with no power this or that, fuck it, it's reliable transport that you will own free and clear in one year.

I've never owned a new vehicle. I bought the brand new 2001 Windstar for my wife, the former Theresa Talamonti. I'm still driving the "Sharks", the '86 and '87 Chevy Caprice Broughams. Sure I can afford to go out and buy myself a freakin' Hummer if I wanted, but I'd be projecting the wrong image to others. I'm a older, spiffy Chevy Caprice type guy. Not a Hummer guy. I'm taking the path that ensures my lunatic daughter can go to any college she desires.

We've been thinking of trading in my wife's 2001 Honda CRV to get a minivan, we've put 30,000 trouble free miles on it. I would recommend one to anybody!

Don't Buy A Kia

If it aint broke dont fix it.

Drive it for another year, then it'll be paid for. It's not going to depreciate much especially if you don't put many more miles on it.

That's some sound advice. Plus if you really like the Jeep GC, I would wait a bit for the new '05s to become more common on the roads. That will make the prices drop for the '99-'04 versions. Here are a few tips for when you go shopping...

1) Avoid used car dealers! A good number of people use trade-ins or auctions to unload junkers they'd be afraid to sell to anyone who'd return to their house with a brick! Guess where used dealers get most of their cars?? This advice includes the big-box used car stores that distract you with a childeren's play area and other BS. They tried to re-invent the car market here in Detroit, and failed within a year, because too many people know the business. I even amused myself once by stopping in their HUGE showroom and seeing how many cars I could spot with with fresh re-paints (all!) Lots of Rental cars get unloaded here, and I'm sure you've heard the phrase "Drive it like a rental!"

2) When calling a private party ad, ALWAYS say "Hi, I'm calling about the vehicle you're selling." NEVER "I'm calling about the 1999 Grand Cherokee you're selling. If you force them to reply "Which vehicle?" then you know you're dealing with somebody who's flipping cars... Not always a bad thing as I used to do it myself, but let's you know to sharpen your radar that much more.

3) Learn how to spot collision repairs by looking at panel fit, tape lines from a re-paint, etc. Not always a danger sign, as most new cars need paint after a 5 MPH parking lot mishap, but it's a good place to find a bargaining chip.

4) Be suspicious of any seller who shows you a car with a warm engine. Lots of noises and trouble disappear when a car warms-up. Make sure you test fluids and such BEFORE anyone starts the engine (except fluid level in trans which must be tested when the car is running).

5) Long test-drives up to highway speeds

6) Remember that cheap new cars bring CHEAP resale value. How much is that $15,000 new car worth in two years? $7,000 if you're lucky. Most "real" cars won't lose 50% of value in two years.

7) Try you're best to avoid finacing a used car. The rates suck, and the only thing you should ever buy-on-time is a house. I know this might be unrealistic, but keep it in mind as a goal.

8) Don't pay money for image. No one will love you more if you drive a Buick rather than a Mercedes, and Buicks are more reliable! People like me will be more willing to let you merge anyways, and not be tempted to park really close to your image-mobile with their $1000 hoopite just to F-with you.

Of course this advice comes from somebody who enjoys scaring punk kids who "think" they just cut-off an old man driving a Chrysler New Yorker, when in fact it's a young man, with a bad attitude driving a Chrysler New Yorker with dark windows, lol. Your mileage may vary! :naughty:

All very good advice and many of you hit on points I have swimming in my head, on retrospect it's good I couldn't get that Grand Cherokee I might have pulled the trigger on it with the smell of leather still fresh in my nose and regretted it. They made a mistake giving me two days to think on this since I am kind of a compulsive guy I might have done a compulsive buy but now that I have time to reflect................. I am having serious doubts about doing it. Paying off my Jeep and having no car payment after 3 - 1/2 years sounds awfully sweet. Couple that with paying off my big screen HDTV this Feb. after two years of payments and I would be literally swimming in dough.

I have wanted a new or practically new car since I was old enough to drive and have driven a lot $100 cars in my life so the compulsion is very strong in me especially if I sit in one and drive it :(

I really think that unless they make me an offer I can't refuse on a truck or SUV I really love, low payments and super nice low mileage vehicle, and from what I have seen and heard so far it ain't going to happen, that I will be walking away with no regrets. Thanks for all the advice.

Wish me the stength to resist temptation and to fight compulsion with cold hard logic and common sense ;)

Well Thor, it's your money, but I'd drive your current ride.

Into the ground, no kidding!

My dad always told me a car is an expense, not an investment, so I view a car as transportation, nothing else.
Starts, stops, good heater, good tunes, that's all I need. My current ride is a 1990 Cutalss Ciera Cruiser w/179,000 miles on it I paid $500 last year. Runs great!
If you want to buy a house, I really suggest you pay off your current ride and drive it until it dies. If you only put 17,000 miles on it in 2 1/2 years, I'm astounded. At that rate it'll be 10+ years before it breaks 200K. I'd keep it, build up a downpayment in a year or so and after it's paid off, you can throw the payment into the mortgage calculation. Plus after you get a house, you can itemize and write off your mortgage interst, property taxes, etc, which actually throws money back to you.

I realize that this is probably heresy for someone who lives in the Detroit area, but I get more excited about my gear than what I drive to work :thmbsp:

I'm gald you made a good choise Thor...

I almost jumped on a 98 GC last summer...and I'm glad I didnt....$170/mo payment...and another $100/mo just for insurence...those buggers are EXPENSIVE!!!!!

The current vehicles I have now...the 93' Full size Dodge Van..and the 92' Tempo ....I have now are older but work great...and are both paid for...I rolled the payments into the equity loan on my rental house...@4.8%...so the tennants pay for it!!......But I havent had a car payment in about 3-4 years now...and it shure feels good.....

I personally have seen good and bad used car dealers. Bought my 78 Grand Marquis from a reputable local dealer...they were honest about its problems, let me thoroughly check and test drive it...I gave them the $940 and they took care of the temp tags, title paperwork, tax and all that complicated stuff. If you buy from a private party make sure you are well versed in the DMV/DOT paperwork as many times the seller is not.

Plus after you get a house, you can itemize and write off your mortgage interst, property taxes, etc, which actually throws money back to you.Heard this many times before we bought our house. We ended up with an inexpensive enough house (about $80K), with a low enough interest rate, on a joint tax return, that that never happened. The standard deduction goes up each year, and has always been bigger than anything we could itemize.

The cost of living is pretty low here; just wanted to note that this "trueism" doesn't apply to everyone -- Foe

I remember when I was looking at another car and was around 18. I talked to my dad about this car trying to convince him that since it would be better on gas, I should buy it. The words stick in my head to this day. "Figure out what the difference is in fuel based on a year of driving and take that out of the cost of the monthly payments,now, see all of that extra money? That is what you will either have to use as you want or you can give it to the bank. Your choice son.

I didn't get the car, spent all of the money on beer instead, but I still remember the logic and use it today.

Great idea to keep it Thor. They really don't get any better than the Cherokee. Sure it makes weird rattles and clunks occasionally, but they keep on going. I understand wanting new and cooler, I used to get in trouble most every year. Every spring I would look for a new rig. However, I am getting near to paying off both rigs this year and enjoy having money in my pocket more than I enjoy getting that new car "high" for a few months....... till the payments start usually.
My rigs are always used, and have always been reliable. I eventually realized that if I wanted a project rig, it would most likely be in the shape of the rigs I already have....... I'll just throw money at ones I already have.... performance engine, lift, winch......... things like that. Once they are paid for, the sky is the limit, cause it is mine. Besides the fact that I use my rigs to work with. A new 35,000 dollar truck would kill me the first time one of my guys put a big ass dig in the side loading up gear. I know a few guys who spend that kind of money....... we're talking 600.00 a month payment type rigs.... that would make it awfully hard to enjoy.

I would also like to advocate having a couple of more inexpensive vehicles rather than one expensive one. If the fancy vehicle is in the shop for a week and you don't have a back-up....it's very difficult. It is very comforting to know that even if one vehicle got a nail in the tire the night before or has a battery cable problem or something unexpected when you go to start it in the morning, all you have to do is jump in the other car and you're off to work with no trouble.

For the $16,000 you get a new car. There are quite a few new cars in that price range.

It may not be a Jeep w/ leather seats, but will have a new car warranty, and ZERO miles. Will last far beyond the 3 to 5 year payment plan.

Actually the best buy in cars is one about 2 or 3 years old. Usually pay about 2/3 to 1/2 the new car cost, and get one with 25,000 to 35,000 miles.

The largest protion of the depreciation is used up, and there are many with real low miles. And can get them in the $16,000 range (or less) that you are talking.

You can buy a used car from a dealer, but you need to know how to do it.

All car dealers, banks and loan companies all use the same NADA book for values. The dealer never actually pays more than "trade in" for a car.
He tries to sell the car for "retail" to make a buck. In your case he's making a killing, trying to sell over the retail price. But don't EVER get caught up the "hype" and pay more than NADA book value.

It always makes me laugh when someone says the dealer gave me retail for my trade in.

The one your dealing with is giving you the shaft big time. No way you should pay more than the NADA retail for any car.

Don't finance cars at a dealer, it has higher intrest rates, plus will add on other stuff you don't need. Go to your bank / credit union.

First get all the NADA values for the vehical you want, THEN go to the dealer.
Best time of year is Jan or Feb, because cars aren't selling well, and the dealer needs the cash flow, so will make better deals.

I've done the walk out the door deal, and it does work. (It embarrases the wife and she hates it, but is amazed at what I do and save thousands of $$$)

I bought a mini 3 year old mini van a few years ago. The sales person I was working with said the sales manager would never go for the deal I proposed.

We went back and forth with offers-counter offers, and the last time she said the deal couldn't work, I ask the sales girl to tell him we just are too far apart, I was ready to close the deal right now, but I'll have to buy my mini van somewhere else.

So when she was walking back from the sales managers office, I got up to leave, slowly leaving, looking at new cars in the show room, ... well she came over and say's "I can't believe it, but he said OK on the deal, if you'll sign the papers now. I didn't think he ever do that kind of deal."

I ended up getting the van for about $2,000 under retail. (close to wholesale book price. In this case I had cash from selling our old van myself (got a little over retail for it), and used savings for the balance. No payments

The dealer thinks I'm an a-hole, but I simply beat him at his own game. Or at least brought the game to an equal playing level. ..... And it is a game.

Thor, it will take time, but get the current car paid for, and put together what ever savings you can, Then educate yourself on NADA values, and go shopping.
Have your financing in place, be prepared to write a check on the spot, and refuse to get screwed. (by the dealer)

Couple that with paying off my big screen HDTV this Feb. after two years of payments and I would be literally swimming in dough.

Trust me, you wouldn't be.